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Author Topic: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak Attn: Mga Pros  (Read 2742 times)

Offline skyjammer

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Hello sirs!

I've been trying to get answers from the net...

Given these 3 power ratings, which one is the real power of the speaker?

In deciding on how much power should one need to power his speakers if he wants to meet, at least, the x1.6 requirement, which power rating should he base his decision on?

Continuous power?

Program power?

Peak power?


Pros from all over the world wide web have been discussing -- to no definite resolution.

Ano ba talaga kuya?
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 10:10:41 PM by skyjammer »

Offline skyjammer

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2009, 08:19:51 PM »
Heto ang sagot:



UP





Ba't wala nang sumasagot? :cry: :cry: :cry:

Offline skynums

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak
« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2009, 06:11:52 PM »
antay ko rin ang sagot nito..
ang alam ko lang kasi program power is yung average power niya when you put at least 1.6x power of amp.. or 2x vs power amp..
 :?

Offline mikep

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2009, 02:07:45 AM »
Use continuous power.  You are safer that way.
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Offline skyjammer

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2009, 07:20:26 PM »
Use continuous power.  You are safer that way.

Thank you sir! :mrgreen:

Supporting questions:

1.
Sir Mike, if the speaker indicates only one power rating and it doesn't say if it's Continuous, Program or Peak -- does this usually (automatically) mean it's Program Power?

2.
What is the difference between Output power and Rated Output power on power amps? How is Rated Output Power used?
Please see picture below:


3.
When specs says Peak Power 1000w, does this mean the max power that your speaker can handle is 1000w? If not, what is the use of this?
« Last Edit: March 16, 2009, 07:25:18 PM by skyjammer »


Offline superwup

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak Attn: sir mikep
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2009, 08:02:54 PM »
Maybe this can help a bit?

From Wiki:

Audio Electronics
See also: Power handling

Peak power is an a common way to rate the power handling electronics, especially speakers and amplifiers. It is a very impractical and exaggerated rating used by manufacturers to make their products seem much more powerful than they actually are. Peak power refers to the maximum amount of power something can handle before damage. In speakers, the peak power rating (also referred to as "max power" or Peak Music Power Output (PMPO), is often five or six times greater than the Root mean square (RMS) rating.[citation needed]

Ambiguity: Among amplifiers, the peak power rating is fairly ambiguous as it varies depending on "acceptable" maximum harmonic distortion.[citation needed] For example, the peak power output rating of surround sound receivers is often taken at 10 percent THD.[citation needed] The highest generally acceptable level of total harmonic distortion is considered to be 0.1%. Hence, two max power output ratings are sometimes provided, one at 0.1% THD, and another at 10% THD

Offline skyjammer

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak Attn: sir mikep
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2009, 08:47:58 PM »
Maybe this can help a bit?

From Wiki:

Audio Electronics
See also: Power handling

Peak power is an a common way to rate the power handling electronics, especially speakers and amplifiers. It is a very impractical and exaggerated rating used by manufacturers to make their products seem much more powerful than they actually are. Peak power refers to the maximum amount of power something can handle before damage. In speakers, the peak power rating (also referred to as "max power" or Peak Music Power Output (PMPO), is often five or six times greater than the Root mean square (RMS) rating.[citation needed]

Ambiguity: Among amplifiers, the peak power rating is fairly ambiguous as it varies depending on "acceptable" maximum harmonic distortion.[citation needed] For example, the peak power output rating of surround sound receivers is often taken at 10 percent THD.[citation needed] The highest generally acceptable level of total harmonic distortion is considered to be 0.1%. Hence, two max power output ratings are sometimes provided, one at 0.1% THD, and another at 10% THD


I've read this as well bro. Some pros are actually, still, debating about the consistency of this. Basically, this would be answered by manufacturers themselves. The problem there is, are all manufacturers calibrated on this? Besides, not all maufacturers indicate all three power ratings of speakers.

My take is, I am giving half the credit to this wiki point and I would like to get the other half from our Pros' in the house. :-D :-D

As for the amplifiers, what I want to know is when do you use which rating (power rating or Rated Power rating)? or When does this happen? And how?

Offline superwup

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak Attn: Mga Pros
« Reply #7 on: March 18, 2009, 09:06:40 AM »
How about this page?

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-a-power-rating.htm

Anyway, it should be nice if the info at the speakers was uniform but the companies like to make their products more "interesting" to the consumers just to sell more................ :evil:
I see home stereo sets with the stickers at the front 4200 watt.......... :-D


Offline mikep

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak Attn: Mga Pros
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2009, 07:57:10 PM »
Anyway, it should be nice if the info at the speakers was uniform but the companies like to make their products more "interesting" to the consumers just to sell more................ :evil:
I see home stereo sets with the stickers at the front 4200 watt.......... :-D

The problem is, a lot of manufacturers come up with such fantastic numbers to dazzle consumers.  Of course, the higher the numbers, the look seems to be more attractive - 100 gazillion music peak output power!  Wow!

Here's the stuff.

Peak power is normally the maximum amount of power a speaker is able to handle before it is damaged.  Compared to Continuous Power which is equivalent to the RMS measurement of the speaker, Peak Power is about 4 times greater (some say 6 times greater).  Thus, if the RMS rating or Continuous Power rating of a speaker is 150 watts, its Peak (sometimes referred to as instantaneous) power capability is about 600 watts.

PMPO or Peak Music Power meantime, is one which is exaggerated and does not have an exact standard on how it is measured to date.  For instance, some consumer speakers are advertised as 200 watts PMPO but their RMS is only 3 watts.  Or a system with PMPO of 180 watts but an RMS measure of only 16 watts.  This measurement is only used primarily as a sales tool by retailers.  Then, there is Peak Momentary Power Output and Peak Music Power Output.  Their differences lie in their abilities to pass peaks or short train of peaks without distortion or loss of power in less than ten contiguous wave cycles.  Peak Music specifies at least ten.
.  Forget about PMPO, etc. when looking into professional applications.

Continuous power is the more safe specification as it is measured by RMS (Root Mean Square, a mathematical formula).  It is also the measure of the speaker's ability to receive the amp's full power continuously.  An amp's higher RMS value means that it has cleaner and louder capabilities.

Now, some manufacturers measure the power at a single frequency, 1 khz. to inflate specifications.  Always look for a 20-20k measurement spec.  Never a single frequency measurement.  Furthermore, when comparing power outputs of amps, look for the same measurements, i. e., 8 ohms, 20hz. to 20 khz, 0.1 THD. etc.

Program power or music power are never really rigorously defined.  But are thought of as another variation of average power.  Again, ambiguous.  JBL demonstrates it this way.  A 150 watt light bulb will always load 150 watts to an electrical power source, but a 150 watt amplifier will rarely be called to deliver its full output to the speaker.  This condition lies primarily on the kind of program being fed into the system and the peak and average or overall power requirements vary from program to program.  Typically, the peak factor ratio normally happens at 25 dB for classical and 8 to 10 dB for rock music.  As speakers can handle short peaks of power, much higher than they can sustain on a steady continuous basis, this type of specification is not as reliable.

JBL follows the IEC Standard for its speakers' testing and adopted a 3 category application.  For systems that requires high peak transient capabilities like studio monitoring systems, where cleaner, high quality reproduction is a must, the ratio is X2.  Thus, a 300 watt speaker is powered by a 600 watt amp.  For high continuous applications, but not distorted, is necessary, like a sound reinforcement system, where it can be inadvertently overdriven or can go into feedback., IEC rating of speaker = IEC rating of amplifier.  For musical instrument application, where distortion is a musical requirement, speaker is driven by an amp with an IEC rating which is 1/2 of the IEC rating of the system.

Other loudspeakers like Community, however, use Program Power Rating.  The formula they use is loudspeaker power rating multiplied by 0.8 and 1.25.  Thus, any power amp between (say 500 watt speaker program rating) 400 to 625 watts can effectively power the loudspeaker.  Anything larger or smaller can cause damage.

What do you now use?  What do you do?  First, find out what the application is.  Second, look into specifications.  Third, make your decision on how to match the system.  JBL in their book "Sound System Design Reference Manual" says, if it is a system that is stressed with full of amplifier outputs for long periods of time, like in music sound reinforcement, the amplifier's continuous output = speaker's continuous input rating.  If speech reinforcement, where an operator controls the levels carefully, 2X the loudspeaker's continuous rating (3dB).  For critical applications like music monitoring as in recording studios or post production studios, 4X (6 dB greater) the loudspeaker's continuous rating.

You average.  I use X2 and it works well.  What rating do I use?  Guess ...





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Offline skyjammer

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak Attn: Mga Pros
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2009, 10:03:46 PM »
Thank you sir mikep! This info is very helpful. It cleared one-third of my questions. :)

Do you mind answering my number 2 question? This is what our Peavey  pv1.3k amp's manual says:

2.
What is the difference between Output power and Rated Output power on power amps? How is Rated Output Power used?
Please see picture below:

Offline alien_inside

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak Attn: Mga Pros
« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2009, 12:56:49 AM »

Do you mind answering my number 2 question? This is what our Peavey  pv1.3k amp's manual says:

another page again...
NOW WE ARE TALKING TO THE AUTHOR!
OT: hirap yata mag-type ah... sir mike, may speech to text recorgnition ka ba?
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Offline alien_inside

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak Attn: Mga Pros
« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2009, 01:02:05 AM »

What is the difference between Output power and Rated Output power on power amps? How is Rated Output Power used?
Please see picture below:

i think nasagot na rin...paragraph 5...
the center frequency...
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Offline superwup

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak Attn: Mga Pros
« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2009, 07:36:34 AM »
critical applications like music monitoring as in recording studios or post production studios, 4X (6 dB greater) the loudspeaker's continuous rating.

You average.  I use X2 and it works well.  What rating do I use?  Guess ...

Maybe xxx ? :-D

Offline skyjammer

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak Attn: Mga Pros
« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2009, 12:57:40 PM »
i think nasagot na rin...paragraph 5...
the center frequency...

Oo nga no... :-D Peace sir mikep!

Offline mikep

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Re: Heto ang tanong! Continuous vs Program vs Peak Attn: Mga Pros
« Reply #14 on: March 19, 2009, 04:58:19 PM »
The things that I wrote here are based on my own personal pro experiences and what works for me.  What I am saying is, there are a lot of schools of thoughts regarding measurements and specification/ratings.  Like the book written by Gary Davis for Yamaha as a "Sound Systems Handbook," he opines that the use of continuous rating is "dangerous" and "misleading," it seems that Program Rating (that's the way I perceived it) seems to be the better way.  What works best for you is the one you use.  At the same time, there are practices already being used by a lot of pros and they work - for example, doubling amplifier power or something to that effect, to match speakers systems. Meantime, learn how to read specs and technical literature.  Make sure you understand what is printed and you interpret them correctly.

Regarding Output Power and Rated Output, as I mentioned, some manufacturers publish only tests with one frequency as basis (Output Power) to make the figure more attractive - larger.  If you compare the two, Rated Output, which uses the freq. 20Hz. - 20kHz. has a much smaller value compared to the former.  20 - 20 tests (Rated Output) would be better spec. compared to one based on a single freq. (1 kHz., Output Power).  Also, when comparing amplifier types, you compare them based on the same specs, i. e., rated output, sensitivity, freq. response, etc.  Apples to apples; never apples to oranges.

FWIW 
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