TALK @ PhilMusic.com - The Online Home of the Pinoy Musician
The Musician Forums => Guitar Central => Topic started by: riffscreamer on July 31, 2008, 04:39:47 PM
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I went to a certain music/guitar store yesterday and I asked how much it is to setup/intonate my RJ LP, assuming they charged for it. He gave me a cheap, reasonable price. Tapos sabi nya, "madali lang naman mag-intonate ah?" I haven't had any guitar setup before so I wouldn't know what to do. My band plays in C#G#C#F#A#D#. How do you go about guitar setup/intonation? What do you do exactly?
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i basically learned intonation from this page.
i dunno if this is accurate but what the heck, this page has pictures! :-D
http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/intonate.htm
but im still confused about this. :?
some sites say you should use the 12th fret harmonic?
is that better than just fretting the 12th (or the octave)?
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i basically learned intonation from this page.
i dunno if this is accurate but what the heck, this page has pictures! :-D
http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/intonate.htm
but im still confused about this. :?
some sites say you should use the 12th fret harmonic?
is that better than just fretting the 12th (or the octave)?
try mo nalang harmonic then fret.
i do my own intonation... i just use a chromatic tuner and the 5th and 12th fret harmonic and check the fretted notes above the 14th fret.
wala ksi luthier sa amin dito around, i just tried to learn how to do it myself.
:|
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i basically learned intonation from this page.
i dunno if this is accurate but what the heck, this page has pictures! :-D
http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/intonate.htm
but im still confused about this. :?
some sites say you should use the 12th fret harmonic?
is that better than just fretting the 12th (or the octave)?
nakasulat sa manual ng fender 12th fret harmonic daw gawin, pero mas ok para skin ung fretting the 12th fret. mas tama pag pinipindot ung 12th fret, IMO.
tinest ko kasi na mag harmonic tapos nung tumama na sa tune, pag nag hit ka ng note example B-string 17 fret medyo hindi eksakto pero pag "fretting" ang pag intonate ko mas tama yung tune pag ginawa ko ulit ung B-string 17 fret.
lahat ng gitara ko "fretting" ang ginagawa ko hindi harmonic.
mga bossing ano magandang gawin?
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Yep dali lang yan bro. IMO, dapat alam natin mag-setup kahit konti, intonation being one of the simpler ones to do (along with bridge action and pole piece adjustment). You make a mistake, it's reversible, no biggie (it's not like trussrod adjustment, where you make a mistake and snap your guitar neck). Just go ahead and do it!
Personally, for intonation I just fret the 12th. See if it's tuned with the open string notes.
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kelangan talaga matutunan to, kase ang mahal ng singil ng mga luthiers ngayon... :-(
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Yep dali lang yan bro. IMO, dapat alam natin mag-setup kahit konti, intonation being one of the simpler ones to do (along with bridge action and pole piece adjustment). You make a mistake, it's reversible, no biggie (it's not like trussrod adjustment, where you make a mistake and snap your guitar neck). Just go ahead and do it!
Personally, for intonation I just fret the 12th. See if it's tuned with the open string notes.
yan din ang ginagawa ko sir, bakit kaya sabi sa manual ng fender i-harmonic daw ung 12th fret hanggang tumama yung tone ng harmonic tune at open string tune.
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(it's not like trussrod adjustment, where you make a mistake and snap your guitar neck)
A drinking buddy friend of mine one of those Berhinger guitar sets, the ones that came with an amp, strap and pick... the starter boxes.
Me and another friend played with it and commented that the action was too high he should either adjust the bridge or ask an experienced guy to adjust the truss rod for him. He said he could do it pero we told him wag mong gawin pag d mo kabisado.
Inuwi nya and did the truss rod thing himself and cracked the neck and headstock joint. LOL talaga you should have seen the expression in his face.
:lol:
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dahan dahan lang sa pag adjust ng truss rod. mga 15 degree turn more or less lang at a time dapat. you wont see visible results sa simula, pero wait till you tune your guitar. or wait ng mga 2-3 minutes. dun bigla makikita yung effect nung pag-adjust.
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yan din ang ginagawa ko sir, bakit kaya sabi sa manual ng fender i-harmonic daw ung 12th fret hanggang tumama yung tone ng harmonic tune at open string tune.
Pwede rin kasi, due to the fact that the 12th fret note and 12th fret harmonic should be in tune. I prefer frets, mas ear-friendly for me.
Inuwi nya and did the truss rod thing himself and cracked the neck and headstock joint. LOL talaga you should have seen the expression in his face.
Priceless look huh :lol: hirap nga naman nyan. If you learn how to do it, it saves you luthier charges. If you don't learn, you snap a few necks.
dahan dahan lang sa pag adjust ng truss rod. mga 15 degree turn more or less lang at a time dapat. you wont see visible results sa simula, pero wait till you tune your guitar. or wait ng mga 2-3 minutes. dun bigla makikita yung effect nung pag-adjust.
Yung iba nga iniiwan for a day. Wood is an organic material that doesn't react at once to stresses. I'd be very very very very careful. :-D
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i basically learned intonation from this page.
i dunno if this is accurate but what the heck, this page has pictures! :-D
http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/intonate.htm
Ito lang pala. Salamat sa link sir!
kelangan talaga matutunan to, kase ang mahal ng singil ng mga luthiers ngayon... :-(
Exactly the reason why I made this thread. Para tayo-tayo na mismo ang mag-setup ng mga jitars natin.
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i fret the 12th too with all of my guitars. But after a few days hindi nanaman nakaintonate. adjust uli, tapos 2 - 3 days later wla nanaman. nakakapikon. hehe. so i decided to ask a guitar tech to do it. pero ganun din. napagastos lang. haha. anyone can help me out? i also tried adjusting the truss rod, kaya lang nadadamay ung action, nagkaka fret buzz. haay. kelangan talaga mahaba ang pasensya pag magintonate and setup ng guitar. hehe. more advice please! :-D
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May order yan eh. Something like trussrod -> action -> intonation, then repeat. Although I don't mess with the trussrod too much. :-D
Pag hindi pa rin, it could be a bad neck.
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no problemo senor! :-D
napaisip tuloy ako,
gano kadalas nyo i-intonate ang gitara nyo?
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Once in a blue moon! :lol:
Di naman ako papalit-palit ng string gauge these days. Ok pa naman eh.
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Once in a blue moon! :lol:
Di naman ako papalit-palit ng string gauge these days. Ok pa naman eh.
Bad time ata to DIY intonate my guitar. Malapit ko na lagyan ng bagong strings yun eh.
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i basically learned intonation from this page.
i dunno if this is accurate but what the heck, this page has pictures! :-D
http://www.projectguitar.com/tut/intonate.htm
but im still confused about this. :?
some sites say you should use the 12th fret harmonic?
is that better than just fretting the 12th (or the octave)?
wow, Helpful itong link na ito ah sir. Salamat sa pag-share :-D
Kaya lang wala naman akong iiintonate kasi nanakaw gitara ko hehe :-D
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i'm not adjusting my truss rod...
always use the same gauge of strings,
para consistent, saka light gauge lang gamit ko...
sa bridge ako nag aadjust, it works for me :-D
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i do my own set up and intonation basically because its tiring to travel to the luthier and mismong si Arie na nag sabi saking I can do myself. he gave me the basic knowledge and with plenty of trial and error, repeating the whole 9 yards over and over again, IMHO, im getting better at it, not really the bang pero getting better and closely hitting the mark.
since intonation naman ang tanong mo, un nlang pagusapan natin dahil nakakasira ng ulo ung truss rod vs. saddle height vs. level frets discussion. kasi ang sagot ko dun:
1. priority ang leveled frets. something that is hard to do without the right tools. so once you take out your guitar from the luthier, make sure this is done. ung iba pwedeng ikaw magadjust, eto mahirap gawin basta basta.
2. ung saddle height, there is an instrument use to set it at an ideal height because each string ideally should be parallel to the surface of the fretboard. may curved fretboard like strats and teles, but some have flatter surfaces. pero this can also be done by careful examination.
to set your guitar neck straight, check this by fretting the 6th string where neck meets the body. then check the space between the 8th fret and the string. the string should lightly touch the fret as if placed lightly on top of it, no bending or too much clearance (space).
assuming straight ung neck ng guitar, you wanna set the saddles as low as possible without creating fretbuzz. do this with guitar in tune.
fretbuzz is say if you fret on the 3rd fret, the string when plucked, buzzes on the 4th fret or worse other frets from 5 to the end... then you have a serious case of unleveled frets (but lets assume you have leveled frets). a little of this buzz can be accepted with your wound strings ((top 3 for electric, top 4 strings for acoustics) as they really vibrate more than the plain strings because they are wounded. but only a tiny bit on the moment of attack (right moment when you pluck the string). if the buzz is sustained, your saddle is too low.
so leveled frets, straight neck and saddles are low enough that they dont buzz.
now taste comes into play... action. some like it really low specially shredders because it helps them play easily, glidding through the fretboard. some like it a bit high, for blues because of sustain. less notes, more accentuated. kanya kanyang liking to. find your own.
you then adjust the action. bending neck backward to lower it, leaning the neck forward to add height.
to lower the action, you bend the neck backward (a little) by tightening the truss rod. turn it clockwise to tighten.
to heighten the action, you make the neck lean forward by loosening the truss rod. turn it counter-clockwise.
whether the truss rod access it on the headstock or the butt of the neck, clockwise to tighten, counter to loosen.
the reason why they use the ALLEN-WRENCH or HEX-Wrench (hex means 6...) technology here is it allows more angles to access it with unlike the square wrench where access is limited to 90 degrees. so this tells you shouldnt turn it like you turn a screw. the most you should turn it in one session is 90 degrees at most. why?
the neck, which is made of wood, needs time to adjust with the stress of the change. and although you are doing it to the truss rod, the truss rod holds the neck. so any major change could damage the neck. so do it a little at a time. i would say give it a full day (or more) to adjust to the change before making any other adjustments.
CAUTION: if it wont turn, wag mong pilitin! chances are something is wrong when onte na lang matatae ka na eh ayaw pang umikot. it should turn with a fair amount of effort. so if it wont, dont make it. take it to the luthier.
back to the straight neck, if the feel is good for you, keep the action. if its still to difficult to play. bend the neck back little by little (give the guitar one day rest interval with these) until you find your sweet spot without fretbuzz.
if you want more sustain, it a choice of changing string gauges or height in action. try a higher gauge before you mess with the action. bear in mind that a higher action means more difficult to fret notes on the higher frets to do some solos.
also, if you are using drop tunings, use gauge 11 at least or 12 to compensate the tension lost with detuning.
to be continued.. on intonation.
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no problemo senor! :-D
napaisip tuloy ako,
gano kadalas nyo i-intonate ang gitara nyo?
tuwing nawawala sa intonation (2-3yrs bago mawala :-D)
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uy! this will saev me some bucks! :-D
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i do my own set up and intonation basically because its tiring to travel to the luthier and mismong si Arie na nag sabi saking I can do myself. he gave me the basic knowledge and with plenty of trial and error, repeating the whole 9 yards over and over again, IMHO, im getting better at it, not really the bang pero getting better and closely hitting the mark.
since intonation naman ang tanong mo, un nlang pagusapan natin dahil nakakasira ng ulo ung truss rod vs. saddle height vs. level frets discussion. kasi ang sagot ko dun:
1. priority ang leveled frets. something that is hard to do without the right tools. so once you take out your guitar from the luthier, make sure this is done. ung iba pwedeng ikaw magadjust, eto mahirap gawin basta basta.
2. ung saddle height, there is an instrument use to set it at an ideal height because each string ideally should be parallel to the surface of the fretboard. may curved fretboard like strats and teles, but some have flatter surfaces. pero this can also be done by careful examination.
to set your guitar neck straight, check this by fretting the 6th string where neck meets the body. then check the space between the 8th fret and the string. the string should lightly touch the fret as if placed lightly on top of it, no bending or too much clearance (space).
assuming straight ung neck ng guitar, you wanna set the saddles as low as possible without creating fretbuzz. do this with guitar in tune.
fretbuzz is say if you fret on the 3rd fret, the string when plucked, buzzes on the 4th fret or worse other frets from 5 to the end... then you have a serious case of unleveled frets (but lets assume you have leveled frets). a little of this buzz can be accepted with your wound strings ((top 3 for electric, top 4 strings for acoustics) as they really vibrate more than the plain strings because they are wounded. but only a tiny bit on the moment of attack (right moment when you pluck the string). if the buzz is sustained, your saddle is too low.
so leveled frets, straight neck and saddles are low enough that they dont buzz.
now taste comes into play... action. some like it really low specially shredders because it helps them play easily, glidding through the fretboard. some like it a bit high, for blues because of sustain. less notes, more accentuated. kanya kanyang liking to. find your own.
you then adjust the action. bending neck backward to lower it, leaning the neck forward to add height.
to lower the action, you bend the neck backward (a little) by tightening the truss rod. turn it clockwise to tighten.
to heighten the action, you make the neck lean forward by loosening the truss rod. turn it counter-clockwise.
whether the truss rod access it on the headstock or the butt of the neck, clockwise to tighten, counter to loosen.
the reason why they use the ALLEN-WRENCH or HEX-Wrench (hex means 6...) technology here is it allows more angles to access it with unlike the square wrench where access is limited to 90 degrees. so this tells you shouldnt turn it like you turn a screw. the most you should turn it in one session is 90 degrees at most. why?
the neck, which is made of wood, needs time to adjust with the stress of the change. and although you are doing it to the truss rod, the truss rod holds the neck. so any major change could damage the neck. so do it a little at a time. i would say give it a full day (or more) to adjust to the change before making any other adjustments.
CAUTION: if it wont turn, wag mong pilitin! chances are something is wrong when onte na lang [ice cream] ka na eh ayaw pang umikot. it should turn with a fair amount of effort. so if it wont, dont make it. take it to the luthier.
back to the straight neck, if the feel is good for you, keep the action. if its still to difficult to play. bend the neck back little by little (give the guitar one day rest interval with these) until you find your sweet spot without fretbuzz.
if you want more sustain, it a choice of changing string gauges or height in action. try a higher gauge before you mess with the action. bear in mind that a higher action means more difficult to fret notes on the higher frets to do some solos.
also, if you are using drop tunings, use gauge 11 at least or 12 to compensate the tension lost with detuning.
to be continued.. on intonation.
Wow. Very informative post sir. I'll be waiting for the next part. Salamat!
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ganun pala talaga, pinapahinga.
Nagpatulong ako mag-adjust ng truss rod ng LP copy ko, its nice and low hindi na ako nangangawit. Ngayon medyo alam ko na.
It time for intonation siguro ulit. Medyo off na ng konti yung b string ko.
Mas advisable di po ba na mag intonation check kapag new sets of strings na ikakabit/nakakabit?
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ako ang nag aadjust ng bass ko, and sometimes my guitar... hehehe,. natutunan ko lang sya sa mga websites. the hardest and most critical part is the trussrod. hehehe..
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Maraming resources sa internet about intonation. Basically, on the 12th fret harmonic and fretted note should have the same pitch.
Keep in mind that there are other factors that affect tuning and intonation. One of which is your nut. Ideally you don't have to intonate unless you keep switching string gauge and changing bridge height. The PRS wrap around bridge is non-intonatable and it's ideal for gauge 0.10-0.11, meaning aside from the adjustable bridge you have other things to look at.
Lately I learned how to adjust truss rod. I did it on my acoustic guitar. I changed to 0.12 and it was really hard to play. I called Jon Elegee and verified what I need to do. Eureka! I can do complete basic setup now!
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no problemo senor! :-D
napaisip tuloy ako,
gano kadalas nyo i-intonate ang gitara nyo?
only when needed :wink:
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master grasyaps di na ko manonood ng telenovela dito na lang ako, very informative, parang ating alamin ni gerry geronimo, ang lupet!
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Once in a blue moon! :lol:
Di naman ako papalit-palit ng string gauge these days. Ok pa naman eh.
so kung pag check siguro after a week hindi na ulit naka-intonate may problema po ba sa truss rod yung gitara?
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so kung pag check siguro after a week hindi na ulit naka-intonate may problema po ba sa truss rod yung gitara?
Nawawala kaagad sa intonation? Baka kaka-adjust mo lang ng trussrod (remember we have to let it settle)? Or bad neck (poor wood that deforms easily)?
The thing is, intonation is about varying the length of the string from nut to bridge saddle. So yes, it could be a neck thing (trussrod), because it affects the scale length, although minor lang, since maliit lang curvature ng guitar neck.
Let's see what the others have to say also. Not too sure what causes your problem.
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ituloy natin ang ating alamin section heheheh
tama si siore about intonation. to be intonated, your OCTAVES should be, well, an OCTAVE.
for example, your open E, when fretted on the 12th fret should give you the exact same E (mi) note on the higher octave. if there is a difference, then youre guitar is not properly intonated.
as mr siore said, "... intonation is about varying the length of the string from nut to bridge saddle"
let me do a simple illustration:
SAY this is an intonated E string.
NUT_____________________/________________________SADDLE open E E (12th fret)
it will be sharp (#) if you bring the saddle closer to the nut.
NUT_____________________/____________________SADDLE
open E #E(12)
it will be flat (b) if you bring the saddles farther to the nut.
NUT_____________________/__________________________________SADDLE.
open E bE(12)
GETS?
so if youre in tune on the open E string, and fretting it in the 12th fret gives you a note below E, you need to sharp (#) it so you bring the saddles closer to the nut.
vice versa, if your open E string in tune, then gives you a note above E, you need to flat (b) it so you bring the saddles farther from the nut.
you see the screws that go thru the saddles, behind your electric guitar bridge butt? n(strats, teles... traditional bridge constructions)
turn it clockwise to flat (b) it. because youre bringing the saddle close to the bridge butt, farther away from the nut.
turn it counter-clockwise to sharp (#) it. because you are bringing it farther from the bridge butt, towards the nut.
IMPORTANT NOTE:
FOR LES PAULS with TUNE O MATIC BRidges, do the opposite! because the screws are oriented that when you turn clockwise, you bring saddle closer to nut. counter brings it father.
now how do you know how much?
tanchan. but to lessen the repeating the process, use wise estimates. depends sa tuner mo.
whether its the TUNE HAND tuner or it utilizes leds, you could make a wise estimate how far you are from the SWEET SPOT.
ex. you fret the e string on the 12th fret...
b0 - 0 - 0 - X - E - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0#
X meaning the LED lit up.
so means your string is flat (b). so you need to___________?
you need to bring the saddle closer to the nut to sharp it.
contra-contra yan., if its flat, sharp it. sharp? flat it.
so you turn the screw ___________ wise?
counter-clockwise. start with half a revolution of the screw. and see. from there you could start to have a feel how much the intonation changes with every turn. if you ask me, you just have to do it again and again.
so now that saddle is a bit closer to the nut.
your open E string will be out of tune after doing so because the tension changed.
so retune your open E then try the 12th fret again. if its still sharp, repeat process. if its flat, sumobra ka na. now you have to take the saddle a step back by turning the screw the opposite way... clockwise to bring it away from the nut.
repeat process til you find the open E '"rymes" with the fretted E on the 12th.
do the same thing with other strings.
now on the question whether its better to do the OPEN note or the harmonic equivalent...
you see, there is what you call ATTACK and SUSTAIN.
attack is the immediate moment after you pluck the string.
sustain is the note it holds after sometime it is plucked.
the tuner reading is sharper than the sustain. vice versa. why? because the tension is greater when you excert pressure on the string right after you pluck it. so right at the moment of attack, it tends to give a # reading. now while the string settles down, the sustain gives a flatter reading because of the dropping tension.
so how you going to tune? attack o sustain?
that is why experts suggest the HARMONIC. because the harmonic greatly reduces these factors in tuning.
o testing na!!! :-D
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I adjusted my trussrod from yesterday thru today. Medyo malaki na yung nakikita kong relief eh, and I just got myself a new set of strings (courtesy of crack123 :-D ), so I might as well set it up.
Kahapon, hinigpitan ko by 1/8 turn. After roughly 24hours (11am yesterday, so about 8am kanina pwede na cguro!), I checked my relief again. I'd like to try a straighter neck this time around, and I think kulang pa, so hinigpitan ko ulit by 1/8. Then D & G strings back to their nut slots, tightened to standard pitch uli, then I check again. It's looking good so far. But let me get back to it and check again tomorrow. Tapos isusunod ko na yung action tsaka intonation.
DIY rocks. :-D
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I'm a bit scared about tinkering with my truss rod. I wouldn't go there muna. So far ayos pa naman ang guitar ko. Nag-iba yung feel nya, pero sanayan lang. Many thanks sir grasyaps.
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ituloy natin ang ating alamin section heheheh
tama si siore about intonation. to be intonated, your OCTAVES should be, well, an OCTAVE.
for example, your open E, when fretted on the 12th fret should give you the exact same E (mi) note on the higher octave. if there is a difference, then youre guitar is not properly intonated.
as mr siore said, "... intonation is about varying the length of the string from nut to bridge saddle"
let me do a simple illustration:
SAY this is an intonated E string.
NUT_____________________/________________________SADDLE open E E (12th fret)
it will be sharp (#) if you bring the saddle closer to the nut.
NUT_____________________/____________________SADDLE
open E #E(12)
it will be flat (b) if you bring the saddles farther to the nut.
NUT_____________________/__________________________________SADDLE.
open E bE(12)
GETS?
so if youre in tune on the open E string, and fretting it in the 12th fret gives you a note below E, you need to sharp (#) it so you bring the saddles closer to the nut.
vice versa, if your open E string in tune, then gives you a note above E, you need to flat (b) it so you bring the saddles farther from the nut.
you see the screws that go thru the saddles, behind your electric guitar bridge butt? n(strats, teles... traditional bridge constructions)
turn it clockwise to flat (b) it. because youre bringing the saddle close to the bridge butt, farther away from the nut.
turn it counter-clockwise to sharp (#) it. because you are bringing it farther from the bridge butt, towards the nut.
IMPORTANT NOTE:
FOR LES PAULS with TUNE O MATIC BRidges, do the opposite! because the screws are oriented that when you turn clockwise, you bring saddle closer to nut. counter brings it father.
now how do you know how much?
tanchan. but to lessen the repeating the process, use wise estimates. depends sa tuner mo.
whether its the TUNE HAND tuner or it utilizes leds, you could make a wise estimate how far you are from the SWEET SPOT.
ex. you fret the e string on the 12th fret...
b0 - 0 - 0 - X - E - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0#
X meaning the LED lit up.
so means your string is flat (b). so you need to___________?
you need to bring the saddle closer to the nut to sharp it.
contra-contra yan., if its flat, sharp it. sharp? flat it.
so you turn the screw ___________ wise?
counter-clockwise. start with half a revolution of the screw. and see. from there you could start to have a feel how much the intonation changes with every turn. if you ask me, you just have to do it again and again.
so now that saddle is a bit closer to the nut.
your open E string will be out of tune after doing so because the tension changed.
so retune your open E then try the 12th fret again. if its still sharp, repeat process. if its flat, sumobra ka na. now you have to take the saddle a step back by turning the screw the opposite way... clockwise to bring it away from the nut.
repeat process til you find the open E '"rymes" with the fretted E on the 12th.
do the same thing with other strings.
now on the question whether its better to do the OPEN note or the harmonic equivalent...
you see, there is what you call ATTACK and SUSTAIN.
attack is the immediate moment after you pluck the string.
sustain is the note it holds after sometime it is plucked.
the tuner reading is sharper than the sustain. vice versa. why? because the tension is greater when you excert pressure on the string right after you pluck it. so right at the moment of attack, it tends to give a # reading. now while the string settles down, the sustain gives a flatter reading because of the dropping tension.
so how you going to tune? attack o sustain?
that is why experts suggest the HARMONIC. because the harmonic greatly reduces these factors in tuning.
o testing na!!! :-D
Ito na mismo yun...the reason we have to adjust string length is because, once we put pressure on the string, we tend to stretch it a bit and hence it will be slightly out of tune once pressed, that's why we compensate this event by adjusting the string length thru saddle adjustment.
Basic steps in intonation:
1. Tune the string to pitch.
2. Check 12th fret harmonic it should be tuned to pitch
3. Check the 12th fret fretted note.
4. If the fretted note on the 12th fret is lower than the 12th fret harmonic, move the bridge saddles closer to the nut, if the fretted note is higher, move the saddles farther to the nut...move the saddles little by little, turning the screws in minimal rotations, take your time, don't rush. Once the 12th fret harmonic and the fretted note is in tune, you have attained perfect intonation...
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sir may tanong ako. what am i supposed to do pag todo na yung saddles pero flat parin ako?
parang hindi kasi nagbabago yung intonation eh. or may setting time ba yun?
thanks
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sir may tanong ako. what am i supposed to do pag todo na yung saddles pero flat parin ako?
parang hindi kasi nagbabago yung intonation eh. or may setting time ba yun?
thanks
Could be the tuner you're using bro. Pag todo na yung saddles, paktay. :-D
Pwede mo reverse pag tune-o-matic bridge. From this:
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Babaliktarin para maging:
/|
Para may extra length ka. Pero di ko pa na-try. Hehehehe
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Could be the tuner you're using bro. Pag todo na yung saddles, paktay. :-D
Pwede mo reverse pag tune-o-matic bridge. From this:
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Babaliktarin para maging:
/|
Para may extra length ka. Pero di ko pa na-try. Hehehehe
naka strat modern 2pt trem bridge ako sir.
pero ang weird dahil yung HIGH E string ko lang ang ganito. yung ibang strings, ok naman, sumusunod sa intonation if i adjust the saddles. pero sa HIGH E string, parang hindi sumusunod even if i adjust the saddles.. pero gumagalaw yung saddles. naka-todo na nga ngayon eh
has anybody encountered this? ano kaya ginagawa sa ganito?
and yeah, napansin ko yung HIGH E string ko, mas mababa ang string height compared sa other strings..
hala.. what to do.. what to do.. luthier na ba ito? :?
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naka strat modern 2pt trem bridge ako sir.
pero ang weird dahil yung HIGH E string ko lang ang ganito. yung ibang strings, ok naman, sumusunod sa intonation if i adjust the saddles. pero sa HIGH E string, parang hindi sumusunod even if i adjust the saddles.. pero gumagalaw yung saddles. naka-todo na nga ngayon eh
has anybody encountered this? ano kaya ginagawa sa ganito?
and yeah, napansin ko yung HIGH E string ko, mas mababa ang string height compared sa other strings..
hala.. what to do.. what to do.. luthier na ba ito? :?
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tagal na pero buhayin natin!
i asked arie about this: does the saddle height affect the intonation? AND you know what he told me? NO. BECAUSE THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE NUT AND THE SADDLES DIDNT CHANGE.
PERHAPS, YES. BUT I DISAGREE. BUT WHAT CAN A LOWLIFE LIKE ME SAY AGAINST THE MASTER?
I DISAGREE because:
1. my first inclination is derived from my knowledge of trigonometry. that as the angle of inclination is increased, it also increases the length of both the sides (triangle planes) adjacent to the angle which was increased and the one that is opposite to it.
vice versa, increasing the height of one side (plane), increases the angle opposite to it.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x227/grasyaps/AOI.jpg)
now in increasing the height of the saddle (PURPLE), you are in essence increasing;
a.the angle of inclination between the imaginaryfretboard plane ((YELLOW GREEN) which is, from the nut to the bottom of the saddle leveled to the top of your last fret) and the string plane (your string, BLUE GREEN) from nut to saddle top.
b. the string length.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x227/grasyaps/AOI2.jpg)
hey, last time i heard, trigonometry was a proven science. cant argue with that, can we?
and 2nd reason why i disagree with arie was because, i've tried it. try it with your guitar. adjust saddle height and see if you can live with the sharpness in intonation. if you can and still play along, then you have to use a precise tuner so you can see it with your own eyes.
i know its only a miniscule value but it does affect the string length and inevitably, your intonation. this is true specially with acoustic guitars with higher tension strings. string tension multiplied by the string length equals to a value which can be felt by your hands and heard by your ears.
dont tell me its a negligible amount and agree with luthiers when they gauge string height by 2 decimals of a mm.
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tagal na pero buhayin natin!
i asked arie about this: does the saddle height affect the intonation? AND you know what he told me? NO. BECAUSE THE DISTANCE BETWEEN THE NUT AND THE SADDLES DIDNT CHANGE.
PERHAPS, YES. BUT I DISAGREE. BUT WHAT CAN A LOWLIFE LIKE ME SAY AGAINST THE MASTER?
I DISAGREE because:
1. my first inclination is derived from my knowledge of trigonometry. that as the angle of inclination is increased, it also increases the length of both the sides (triangle planes) adjacent to the angle which was increased and the one that is opposite to it.
vice versa, increasing the height of one side (plane), increases the angle opposite to it.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x227/grasyaps/AOI.jpg)
now in increasing the height of the saddle (PURPLE), you are in essence increasing;
a.the angle of inclination between the imaginaryfretboard plane ((YELLOW GREEN) which is, from the nut to the bottom of the saddle leveled to the top of your last fret) and the string plane (your string, BLUE GREEN) from nut to saddle top.
b. the string length.
(http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x227/grasyaps/AOI2.jpg)
hey, last time i heard, trigonometry was a proven science. cant argue with that, can we?
and 2nd reason why i disagree with arie was because, i've tried it. try it with your guitar. adjust saddle height and see if you can live with the sharpness in intonation. if you can and still play along, then you have to use a precise tuner so you can see it with your own eyes.
i know its only a miniscule value but it does affect the string length and inevitably, your intonation. this is true specially with acoustic guitars with higher tension strings. string tension multiplied by the string length equals to a value which can be felt by your hands and heard by your ears.
dont tell me its a negligible amount and agree with luthiers when they gauge string height by 2 decimals of a mm.
nice one! i've been wondering about this myself...
in theory, (assuming we're talking about ABSOLUTE values here) the fretted 12th will EXACTLY match the harmonic 12th if the nut, the bridge and the 12th FRET is the same height. other than that there will be a triangle that would create minute differences ... but thats not possible right? the bridge requires a certain elevation for the whole fretting system to work.
well, this is just theory. maybe someone here can give as the math for this?
by the way, i do my own intonation/truss rod etc... and learned from trial and error. no busted neck yet from 5 guitars... i adjust it to the closest i can - meaning the tuner can probably hear the difference but i cant, - chances are no one in the audience can hear it too.. (unless someone out there carries a tuner that....
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educational...
pag hindi sigurado at may takot... wag na galawin... no doubt :lol:
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Anyone tried doing their own fret leveling? Or nut replacement? :-)
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Kapag nag-setup ako ng guitars at intonation and action, naka tuner na at nakakabit sa amp para mababa ko yung action sa pinaka lowest.
*Lahat ng guitars ko may fret buzz* Except sa bass... :-)
Pero pag naka-amp na, walang buzz. Kasi naka-amp ako habang nag-sesetup. Syempre naka-off muna ang amp then on kung test na.
Pag Locking/floating tremolo like Lo-pro edge, edge 3 or any kind, hindi mo ma-adjust ang induvidual height kasi 2-point system db?
So, I add washers sa ilalim ng lock ng intonation. Aangat yon. (FLOYD ROSE is flat unlike Lo pro edge *btw meron na washers sa Lo pro edge, kasama talaga sa bridge).
I do this kung hindi makuha "inside the box". I go "outside the box" sometimes.
Last:
Sa ngayon, refret palang ang napagawa ko. (3 frets sa luthier sa Sta Mesa for 350 rush pa from 1 pm - 3pm ok na)
Kailangan na madiskarte din tayo.Mahal sa luthier e. I want learn din sa iba. Keep posting...
Dito sa Olongapo may mga kapwa musikero nag-papaayos sa akin (ng guitara) pati mga musikero sa church.
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ang alam ko lang pagdating sa refretting, dapat alam mo kung anung type ng sandpaper gagamitin... dapat yung fine hehe :-D
seriously, may nagsabi nga na dapat basic knowledge na ng mga gitarista ang makapag refret (which, i totally agree with) :lol:
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ang alam ko lang pagdating sa refretting, dapat alam mo kung anung type ng sandpaper gagamitin... dapat yung fine hehe :-D
seriously, may nagsabi nga na dapat basic knowledge na ng mga gitarista ang makapag refret (which, i totally agree with) :lol:
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check this out for more details...Thanks.
http://www.bukisa.com/articles/68608_how-to-intonate-your-electric-guitar
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Anyone tried doing their own fret leveling? Or nut replacement? :-)
me, i have tried nut replacement, nut filing, fret replacement, fret beveling, crowning, polishing, leveling
http://fretrefinishing.com/
never successfully painted one though :lol:, but i have an ibby im willing to stain to see how it looks like,
also when doing intonation and tuning, roll of the tone knob, it helps even monteallums recommend that :-)
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ang alam ko lang pagdating sa refretting, dapat alam mo kung anung type ng sandpaper gagamitin... dapat yung fine hehe :-D
seriously, may nagsabi nga na dapat basic knowledge na ng mga gitarista ang makapag refret (which, i totally agree with) :lol:
i agree with that too, good thing now i have the tools that make it easy and possible, the right brass hammer, fret puller, fret tang/nipper/cutter/, crowning files, thomas and genix fret level,pre crowner,polisher(cheapest tool ever), and steel wool(oh yes), i just borrow a bevel block fret filer sometimes(makes beveling alot faster),
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may special tuner na ginagamit for intonation ba or chromatic lang ?
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ituloy natin ang ating alamin section heheheh
tama si siore about intonation. to be intonated, your OCTAVES should be, well, an OCTAVE.
for example, your open E, when fretted on the 12th fret should give you the exact same E (mi) note on the higher octave. if there is a difference, then youre guitar is not properly intonated.
as mr siore said, "... intonation is about varying the length of the string from nut to bridge saddle"
let me do a simple illustration:
SAY this is an intonated E string.
NUT_____________________/________________________SADDLE open E E (12th fret)
it will be sharp (#) if you bring the saddle closer to the nut.
NUT_____________________/____________________SADDLE
open E #E(12)
it will be flat (b) if you bring the saddles farther to the nut.
NUT_____________________/__________________________________SADDLE.
open E bE(12)
GETS?
so if youre in tune on the open E string, and fretting it in the 12th fret gives you a note below E, you need to sharp (#) it so you bring the saddles closer to the nut.
vice versa, if your open E string in tune, then gives you a note above E, you need to flat (b) it so you bring the saddles farther from the nut.
you see the screws that go thru the saddles, behind your electric guitar bridge butt? n(strats, teles... traditional bridge constructions)
turn it clockwise to flat (b) it. because youre bringing the saddle close to the bridge butt, farther away from the nut.
turn it counter-clockwise to sharp (#) it. because you are bringing it farther from the bridge butt, towards the nut.
IMPORTANT NOTE:
FOR LES PAULS with TUNE O MATIC BRidges, do the opposite! because the screws are oriented that when you turn clockwise, you bring saddle closer to nut. counter brings it father.
now how do you know how much?
tanchan. but to lessen the repeating the process, use wise estimates. depends sa tuner mo.
whether its the TUNE HAND tuner or it utilizes leds, you could make a wise estimate how far you are from the SWEET SPOT.
ex. you fret the e string on the 12th fret...
b0 - 0 - 0 - X - E - 0 - 0 - 0 - 0#
X meaning the LED lit up.
so means your string is flat (b). so you need to___________?
you need to bring the saddle closer to the nut to sharp it.
contra-contra yan., if its flat, sharp it. sharp? flat it.
so you turn the screw ___________ wise?
counter-clockwise. start with half a revolution of the screw. and see. from there you could start to have a feel how much the intonation changes with every turn. if you ask me, you just have to do it again and again.
so now that saddle is a bit closer to the nut.
your open E string will be out of tune after doing so because the tension changed.
so retune your open E then try the 12th fret again. if its still sharp, repeat process. if its flat, sumobra ka na. now you have to take the saddle a step back by turning the screw the opposite way... clockwise to bring it away from the nut.
repeat process til you find the open E '"rymes" with the fretted E on the 12th.
do the same thing with other strings.
now on the question whether its better to do the OPEN note or the harmonic equivalent...
you see, there is what you call ATTACK and SUSTAIN.
attack is the immediate moment after you pluck the string.
sustain is the note it holds after sometime it is plucked.
the tuner reading is sharper than the sustain. vice versa. why? because the tension is greater when you excert pressure on the string right after you pluck it. so right at the moment of attack, it tends to give a # reading. now while the string settles down, the sustain gives a flatter reading because of the dropping tension.
so how you going to tune? attack o sustain?
that is why experts suggest the HARMONIC. because the harmonic greatly reduces these factors in tuning.
o testing na!!! :-D
sumaket ulo ko :x daig pa mathematics
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sir last question po kung ang harmonics in 12 fret ko ee flatted anu ang dapat kong gawin sa saddles ? i-attras or i-abante ?
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sir last question po kung ang harmonics in 12 fret ko ee flatted anu ang dapat kong gawin sa saddles ? i-attras or i-abante ?
so if youre in tune on the open E string, and fretting it in the 12th fret gives you a note below E, you need to sharp (#) it so you bring the saddles closer to the nut.
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so if sharper closer to the nut if flatter pulling away from the nut
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I use the 6th and 12th fret harmonic and compare it to the 6th and 12th fret. If the harmonics are flat, I adjust the string saddle towards the bridge pickup, away if sharp.
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I also intonate my guitar myself and to my other friends who trust me with their guitars. :)
This is a very informative thread tho! Thanks for all the inputs! :)
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Woah. im learning a lot in here. pero nakakatakot parin talaga pakelaman ang truss rod. you make a simple mistake, and you wave goodbye to your axe. hehe. :)
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Woah. im learning a lot in here. pero nakakatakot parin talaga pakelaman ang truss rod. you make a simple mistake, and you wave goodbye to your axe. hehe. :)
Nangyayari lang naman yan kapag pinilit mo pagpihit sa TR. Tapos CRACK!
Normally quarter turns lang pag-adjust dun.
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Nangyayari lang naman yan kapag pinilit mo pagpihit sa TR. Tapos CRACK!
Normally quarter turns lang pag-adjust dun.
yun nga eh. pero saka ko na siguro gagalawin, chineck ko naman using yung 1st fret at fret na kung saan nagmeet yung neck and body, pinindut ko parehas, tapos tama lang naman yung relief, hindi sobrang straight. kaya di ko pinakelaman. bridge lang muna.
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yun nga eh. pero saka ko na siguro gagalawin, chineck ko naman using yung 1st fret at fret na kung saan nagmeet yung neck and body, pinindut ko parehas, tapos tama lang naman yung relief, hindi sobrang straight. kaya di ko pinakelaman. bridge lang muna.
You adjust the truss rod only when you need to. Like when you're changing string gauges or intentionally increasing or decreasing relief. Also, when you're adjusting the TR, you have to do it while adjusting intonation.
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this is great
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astig napaka informative nitong thread, pero para sa baguhan tulad ko di ko pwede gawin, katakot yung truss rod adjustment saka di ko alam kung chromatic yung tuner ko (cherub na tig 400 ngayon), malapit lang naman ako sa guitar saloon sa roosevelt ave dalahin ko nalang pag dating nung addarios strings.
Sabi sa kabilang thread ipa general setup ko, kasama kaya dun yung truss rod adjustment? saka kung ganun mga 1 week ko iiwan sakanila yung gitara ano?
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Naalala ko nung newbie ako into electric guitar, wala pa sa isip ko yung setup setup na yan, until dumating yung araw na parang hindi na ako komportable, at dun na ako nagsimulang mag research about the basic guitar setup, it takes time kung baguhan ka, pero pag dumating na yung time na nakasanayan mo na, mayat maya mo na gagawin. This is a MUST to MASTER.
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nipluck ko kagabi yung D string sa 12th fret, meron parang maluwag na screw sa bridge na nag riring, may naka experience na nun? washburn grx10 sya, di ko naman ginagamitan ng trembar
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this is informative! :wink:
so far, ako lang nag-aadjust ng trussrod at intonation ng mga gitara ko. laki na din natipid ko haha
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tangalugin ko lang :-D
dapat magkapareho sa tuner yung open string saka 12th fret ng bawat string? pero sa 12th fret hindi ako sa tuners mag aadjust kundi sa bridge tama?
sinubukan ko kasi sa 12th fret yung tuner(pero wala akong ginalaw standard tuning parin sya) mejo mataas sya nasamay kanan yung pointer ng tuner. (di ko lang sure kung anong klase yung tuner kung chromatic ba sya tulad nung hinahanap sa mga nababasa kong tutorial)