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Author Topic: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.  (Read 5832 times)

Offline guitarbrat

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"Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« on: April 05, 2014, 12:24:32 PM »
I'm not as experienced with other members here regarding tone but what i have notice during my brief quest of tone is that we really have our own likes and dislikes regarding tone. In short may kanya kanya tayong panlasa sa tone. Malamang may hiyaw sayo ang gitara mo pero wala siyang hiyaw sa akin or vice versa. Parang sa babae din... :-D What do you think?

Offline BlackDiamond

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2014, 12:45:07 PM »
iba ang "hiyaw" sa tone. hindi lahat ng gitara may "hiyaw", pero lahat ng gitara may tone (crappy tone man yan or awesome tone).
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Offline Kulas

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2014, 01:39:28 PM »
parang alam ko na kung saan papunta 'tong thread na 'to, hehe.

Offline rockophoria

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2014, 01:54:34 PM »
ganito lang yan..

pag nagkaron ng isang institution na mag i-"standardize" ng tone dun lang matatapos ang subjectivity nyan.

pero hanggat wala kanya kanya pa rin tayo.

hindi matatalo or madidictate ng statistics and percentage ng mga taong gusto sa tone ni juan vs sa tone ni pedro hanggat meron pa ring nagkakaron ng preference dun sa isa.

di rin pwede sabihin na yung mga may gusto sa tone ni pedro or kay juan eh hindi "credible" kasi hindi naman sila mga musikero but merely "listeners" pero again.. the listeners are the bulk of a musician's followers.. only a handful of them are musicians themselves.. walang paki yun kung ano ang tone mo, pag nagustuhan nun ang songs mo dagdag na sila sa maglalagay ng pera sa bulsa mo.. tapos yung mga follower naman nilang mga musicians ang pilit "gagaya" sa tone nila.

kaya kung ako sa inyo wag nyo ng pagtalunan to

 :-\ :-\
imma badass!! <funky guitar rift>

Offline analog.matt

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2014, 02:30:23 PM »
walang paki yun kung ano ang tone mo, pag nagustuhan nun ang songs mo dagdag na sila sa maglalagay ng pera sa bulsa mo..

 :-\ :-\

yes iba naman ang musicianship

ang gitara parang singer yan. ang hinahanap natin lahat yung wide ang range. so yung mga magagandang gitara, yun supposedly ang malawak ang range. maganda tumunog. hindi naiiba sa singer. hindi ba't ang mga singer na malalawak ang kakayahan ay pinupuri natin ng husto? -- ganun din sa gitara.

now minsan ang singer sobrang taas ng range na mala mariah carey na parang ibon na sumisipol.

yung mga gitara na magaganda ang resonance yun ang may mga "secondary at tertiary harmonics" or something like that. ang mga characteristics na eto ang hinahabol ng iba. yung mga mabote, glassy, sipol, quack, chirp, whatever...yun yon. hindi madali makita ang mga eto sa lesser guitars. again its like comparing a mariah carey to a lesser singer. they're simply at different levels.

hindi naman sa hindi mo mahahanap ang mga yun sa cheaper guitars, its just that mas madaling kunin yun sa mga mamahalin na gitara, dahil lesser ang chance nadead ang tunog (pili na kasi ang kahoy at materyales) and usually pag may "cheaper" guitar na maganda (tsamba) hindi na pakakawalan ng may ari yun.

yung mga singer na magaling like mariah or celine dion, marami ba sila? nope. ganun din karami ang magandang gitara.

pano kung pareho ang level ng mga singer, dyan na papasok ang preference. feminine or masculine voice? coarse na powerful or sweet voice? etc etc.  i believe you can only compare two things if they're at the same level. you can't compare guitars from different levels kasi para kang nag compare ng ferrari to a toyota corolla.

again yung pagiging musician, ibang usapan na eto. hindi pwede i equate kasi that would be comparing driver skills to cars. 2 drivers of equal ability on the same race track, lahat pareho except the cars. ilayag mo yung isa sa sa stock corolla, at yung isa sa stock na porsche, who would win?


« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 02:48:01 PM by analog.matt »


Offline rockophoria

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2014, 02:59:30 PM »
yes iba naman ang musicianship

ang gitara parang singer yan. ang hinahanap natin lahat yung wide ang range. so yung mga magagandang gitara, yun supposedly ang malawak ang range. maganda tumunog. hindi naiiba sa singer. hindi ba't ang mga singer na malalawak ang kakayahan ay pinupuri natin ng husto? -- ganun din sa gitara.

now minsan ang singer sobrang taas ng range na mala mariah carey na parang ibon na sumisipol.

yung mga gitara na magaganda ang resonance yun ang may mga "secondary at tertiary harmonics" or something like that. ang mga characteristics na eto ang hinahabol ng iba. yung mga mabote, glassy, sipol, quack, chirp, whatever...yun yon. hindi madali makita ang mga eto sa lesser guitars. again its like comparing a mariah carey to a lesser singer. they're simply at different levels.

hindi naman sa hindi mo mahahanap ang mga yun sa cheaper guitars, its just that mas madaling kunin yun sa mga mamahalin na gitara, dahil lesser ang chance nadead ang tunog (pili na kasi ang kahoy at materyales) and usually pag may "cheaper" guitar na maganda (tsamba) hindi na pakakawalan ng may ari yun.

yung mga singer na magaling like mariah or celine dion, marami ba sila? nope. ganun din karami ang magandang gitara.

pano kung pareho ang level ng mga singer, dyan na papasok ang preference. feminine or masculine voice? coarse na powerful or sweet voice? etc etc.  i believe you can only compare two things if they're at the same level. you can't compare guitars from different levels kasi para kang nag compare ng ferrari to a toyota corolla.

again yung pagiging musician, ibang usapan na eto. hindi pwede i equate kasi that would be comparing driver skills to cars. 2 drivers of equal ability on the same race track, lahat pareho except the cars. ilayag mo yung isa sa sa stock corolla, at yung isa sa stock na porsche, who would win?

yep, bottomline "subjective" pa rin talaga.. and your explanation only expanded those of a musician's point of view.

no offense pero para kasi sa akin pag subjectivity ang pinag uusapan between musicians about tone.. hindi maiiwasang hindi pumasok ang "wiwi"

kaya nga sabi ko mawawala lang ang subjectivity pag nagkaron ng "standard" tone.. (which is hindi mangyayari) in that way pantay na lahat ng wiwi natin, wala ng subjectivity and all of us will have the "ultimate hiyaw" (impossible din) so magboboil down nalang sa musician skills which is merong "standards".. (kasi napag aaralan and napa practice) so I decided it is fruitless to discuss this.. ilang beses na yan napag usapan dito and we all know kung ano ang pinuntahan nung mga usapan na yun.

so lets just enjoy our tone, kung may narinig na bago edi try emulate.. lets make our own hiyaw.
imma badass!! <funky guitar rift>

Offline analog.matt

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2014, 03:07:38 PM »
its fruitless kasi maraming gusto na sila ang tama. yun lang yun. typical pinas. kaya never nagkakaisa.

usually you just say your opinion and thats it. explain once or twice and that's it. let the reader or seeker intelligently evaluate. let him tow the line somewhere. and agree to disagree.

anyway i don't agree with the subjectivity thing. from your explanation i think you weren't able to comprehend well what i said. mali na ako kung mali. or what. I agree to disagree.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 03:13:44 PM by analog.matt »

Offline rockophoria

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2014, 03:56:00 PM »
its fruitless kasi maraming gusto na sila ang tama. yun lang yun. typical pinas. kaya never nagkakaisa.

usually you just say your opinion and thats it. explain once or twice and that's it. let the reader or seeker intelligently evaluate. let him tow the line somewhere. and agree to disagree.

anyway i don't agree with the subjectivity thing. from your explanation i think you weren't able to comprehend well what i said. mali na ako kung mali. or what. I agree to disagree.

actually tone-wise hindi marami ang gusto na sila ang tama.. marami lang ang may gusto nitong tone na ito, sa tone nya at sa tone ni ganito.. kasi nga subjective.. so preference lang talaga.. unless magkaron nga ng standard tone, dun lang mawawala ang subjective preference.

yep it is only natural that you dont agree with the subjectivity itself.. kasi nga preference.

lets just accept na tone is endless.. and lets enjoy it kasi it means there will "always be something new"
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 04:01:41 PM by rockophoria »
imma badass!! <funky guitar rift>

Offline royc

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Re: &quot;Hiyaw&quot; is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2014, 04:20:52 PM »
Define hiyaw

Offline qroon

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2014, 05:44:50 PM »
Beholder or listener?


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Offline samuelfianza

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2014, 06:05:23 PM »
ganito lang yan..

pag nagkaron ng isang institution na mag i-"standardize" ng tone dun lang matatapos ang subjectivity nyan.

pero hanggat wala kanya kanya pa rin tayo.

hindi matatalo or madidictate ng statistics and percentage ng mga taong gusto sa tone ni juan vs sa tone ni pedro hanggat meron pa ring nagkakaron ng preference dun sa isa.

di rin pwede sabihin na yung mga may gusto sa tone ni pedro or kay juan eh hindi "credible" kasi hindi naman sila mga musikero but merely "listeners" pero again.. the listeners are the bulk of a musician's followers.. only a handful of them are musicians themselves.. walang paki yun kung ano ang tone mo, pag nagustuhan nun ang songs mo dagdag na sila sa maglalagay ng pera sa bulsa mo.. tapos yung mga follower naman nilang mga musicians ang pilit "gagaya" sa tone nila.

kaya kung ako sa inyo wag nyo ng pagtalunan to

 :-\ :-\

I agree that tone preference is subjective but I believe most of us can agree what is a bad or a good tone.

Examples:
- A punk rock or black metal guitarist knows that "scooped mid" tone is very harsh but they just want it that way.
- The Fuzz pedal. It makes the guitar sound horrible but many guitarists can manage to incorporate it to create beautiful music.

Offline Kulas

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #11 on: April 05, 2014, 06:23:18 PM »
actually simple lang yan eh...

example nasa yupangco makati ka, you're looking for a fender strat. you found a particular model that fits your budget, an american standard strat. if you request the product specialists to get you at least 10 working units of american standard strats, i'm sure you'll find one that is better than the others, not just in the playability sense. there's that one unit that will really stand out. they all sound like strats (duh!) pero there's one that would be more dynamic, louder, clearer, and more "alive" than the others. yun ang gitarang may "hiyaw".

Offline royc

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"Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2014, 07:13:36 PM »
It's hard to hear the nuances of a guitar in the noisy environment of a music store, IMO.

Offline rockophoria

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2014, 07:25:45 PM »
I agree that tone preference is subjective but I believe most of us can agree what is a bad or a good tone.

Examples:
- A punk rock or black metal guitarist knows that "scooped mid" tone is very harsh but they just want it that way.
- The Fuzz pedal. It makes the guitar sound horrible but many guitarists can manage to incorporate it to create beautiful music.

yep, but then again our threshold as to what is "bad tone" will again fall into subjectivity..

like what you said, the fuzz pedal, it does make the guitar sound bad.. but why do pedal companies still bother making one? well to simulate the sound of a punctured and cranked up amplifier that past guitarist deliberately did to "create" a "preferred" tone which suit their genre.. thus fuzz pedal is still around for somebody to make  a "good tone out of it".

pero I still dont like the fuzz personally hahah (I thought I did, I got one but turns out hindi talaga).

altho I wont argue that its a bad tone.. since others can make a good tone out of it.. or its good for them standalone.. ill leave it to their listeners.

 :-D :-D
imma badass!! <funky guitar rift>

Offline Kulas

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2014, 07:37:28 PM »
It's hard to hear the nuances of a guitar in the noisy environment of a music store, IMO.

but then again it's the same in a crowded stadium, hehe.

if you need a really silent room to hear the "nuances" of a guitar then that guitar is most probably dead sounding, hehe.

Offline magtataho7

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2014, 07:51:01 PM »
Define hiyaw

Ewan ko lang ha, hindi ko alam kung tama, pero here goes...

Majority kasi ng mga gitara maganda ang tunog pag open string, pero pag umaakyat ka na sa frets, nababawasan na ang volume at sustain (which I presume normal and expected) pero yung gitara na may hiyaw, malakas pa rin ang volume at sustain sa upper register. Sumakto yung combination ng wood ng body at neck na super-responsive sya dun sa frequency ng high notes..

which is rare. IMO

Hataw analogy mo sir analog.matt
BLAH

Offline firemodel55

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2014, 07:52:01 PM »
I'm not as experienced with other members here regarding tone but what i have notice during my brief quest of tone is that we really have our own likes and dislikes regarding tone. In short may kanya kanya tayong panlasa sa tone. Malamang may hiyaw sayo ang gitara mo pero wala siyang hiyaw sa akin or vice versa. Parang sa babae din... :-D What do you think?

Just to clarify.... Hiyaw is USED to measure AND determine a great sounding guitar that has ALL the desirable traits.  There is NO other SOLE measure that determines the presence of so many properties desirable in a guitar.  So, if your guitar has NO hiyaw, it does NOT have the desirable traits of a great guitar.  Now, whether you bend strings or NOT, to make a guitar hiyaw that's your choice. 

Hiyaw is an EXPERIENCE imperfectly discussed and realized on a forum like this.  All the guitars I have bought with HIYAW since five years ago are still with me and are NOT going anywhere because they really set the standard on great sounding electrics.  I do NOT buy and sell my guitars because of the single reason that they all have HIYAW.  The irony is that more than half of them were NOT selected by me but by people OVERSEAS who have great ears and KNOW what a "toneful" instrument is in terms of minimum standards and NOT "kanya kanya tayong panlasa sa tone".

As someone said previously, do NOT confuse Hiyaw and Tone (or known as timbre) and DO NOT PRETEND TO KNOW WHAT HIYAW is.  It takes a multitude of experience to know what it is and is Not.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 08:09:53 PM by firemodel55 »

Offline firemodel55

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2014, 07:52:34 PM »
It's hard to hear the nuances of a guitar in the noisy environment of a music store, IMO.

I can....

Offline firemodel55

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2014, 07:57:10 PM »
Ewan ko lang ha, hindi ko alam kung tama, pero here goes...

Majority kasi ng mga gitara maganda ang tunog pag open string, pero pag umaakyat ka na sa frets, nababawasan na ang volume at sustain (which I presume normal and expected) pero yung gitara na may hiyaw, malakas pa rin ang volume at sustain sa upper register. Sumakto yung combination ng wood ng body at neck na super-responsive sya dun sa frequency ng high notes..

which is rare. IMO

Hataw analogy mo sir analog.matt

Yes... about 95% of the time. Guitars that HAVE HIYAW have volume (in amplified form) and sustain.  But more, big sounding in terms of overtones defined pick attack and mas kabit ang tunog.  Rich in terms of harmonics.  For some reason, easy to play even on 10s.  Responsive to picking and fretting.  Notes are well defined and not muffled. Etc....

Offline firemodel55

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2014, 08:02:36 PM »
. Parang sa babae din... :-D What do you think?

Agree.... Kung pinanonood mo ang nakaraan na Binibinang Pilipinas, wala kang makikitang Aling Dionisya o Vice Ganda na itsurang contestant.  May minimum standard.  Ngayon alam natin ay karamihan ng babae sa Pinas ay hindi kasing ganda ng sumama sa Binibining Pilipinas --- though among them may mas maganda at mas may panget (which to me is kanya kanya).  Of course mayroon rin naliligaw sa mga contestants but ALL of us will agree na hindi dapat maging Top 5 ang nanay ni Pacquaio. 

Back to the guitar analogy, ang mga gitarang may hiyaw ay pang Binibinang Pilipinas material while ang gitarang walang hiyaw which is around 95% of guitars out there, ay pang Aling Dionisya.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 08:52:05 PM by firemodel55 »

Offline firemodel55

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #20 on: April 05, 2014, 08:08:08 PM »
yep, bottomline "subjective" pa rin talaga.. and your explanation only expanded those of a musician's point of view.

no offense pero para kasi sa akin pag subjectivity ang pinag uusapan between musicians about tone.. hindi maiiwasang hindi pumasok ang "wiwi"

kaya nga sabi ko mawawala lang ang subjectivity pag nagkaron ng "standard" tone.. (which is hindi mangyayari) in that way pantay na lahat ng wiwi natin, wala ng subjectivity and all of us will have the "ultimate hiyaw" (impossible din) so magboboil down nalang sa musician skills which is merong "standards".. (kasi napag aaralan and napa practice) so I decided it is fruitless to discuss this.. ilang beses na yan napag usapan dito and we all know kung ano ang pinuntahan nung mga usapan na yun.

so lets just enjoy our tone, kung may narinig na bago edi try emulate.. lets make our own hiyaw.

The Philippines is one country where people HEAVILY insists kanya kanya.  When I talk to the Americans who know, its easier for me to align with them on what is a Great Sounding Guitar.  In my experience, they have consistently supplied me with guitars that have HIYAW without me ever having to hear the guitars or touch them.  I can only say that the defense of "subjectivity" comes from people who lack the experience, exposure and income to know what Great Guitars sound like. 

By the way, the flipside of the coin is marami rin boutique & Vintage na gitara na panget ang tunog. 

At the lower level of timbre, kung walang so called 'standard sa tone', bakit hindi ka na lang gumamit ng local electric na gawa sa Santa Mesa?  May anim na string naman ang gawa sa santa mesa.  May frets naman.  Pwede i-plug sa amp.  May tuners naman.  May bridge naman kahit papaano.  May volume knob.  May guitar strap button.  Makintab ang pintura.  I will tell you why.... kaya mo kasi bumili ng mas mataas na 'standard'.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2014, 08:23:59 PM by firemodel55 »

Offline tonwins11

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #21 on: April 05, 2014, 08:11:02 PM »
Agree.... Kung pinanonood mo ang nakaraan na Binibinang Pilipinas, wala kang makikitang Aling Dionisya o Vice Ganda na itsurang contestant.  May minimum standard.  Ngayon alam natin ay karamihan ng babae sa Pinas ay hindi kasing ganda ng sumama sa Binibining Pilipinas --- though among them may mas maganda at mas may panget (which to me is kanya kanya).  Of course mayroon rin naliligaw sa mga contestants but ALL of us will agree na hindi dapat maging Top 5 ang nanay ni Pacquaio. 

Back guitar analogy, ang mga gitarang may hiyaw ay pang Binibinang Pilipinas material while ang guitarang walang hiyaw which is around 95% of guitars out there, ay pang Aling Dionisya.

This made me understand it all!  :-D
Do-it-yourself tirada!

Offline firemodel55

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2014, 08:17:16 PM »
This made me understand it all!  :-D

I think you are on the right track.... When you are able to understand whether you hear with ears or your dik is indeed the first step to removing the bias. Heh heh :)  But seriously, sometimes a beautiful looking guitar overpowers our minds into thinking that it is a GREAT sounding guitar.  This is the first major challenge to overcome.  It requires a suspension of ego for you to proceed.

Offline mandoytz

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2014, 08:35:51 PM »
But seriously, sometimes a beautiful looking guitar overpowers our minds into thinking that it is a GREAT sounding guitar.  This is the first major challenge to overcome.  It requires a suspension of ego for you to proceed.
+1  :)

Offline CeL1916

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Re: "Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.
« Reply #24 on: April 05, 2014, 08:47:58 PM »
Agree.... Kung pinanonood mo ang nakaraan na Binibinang Pilipinas, wala kang makikitang Aling Dionisya o Vice Ganda na itsurang contestant.  May minimum standard.  Ngayon alam natin ay karamihan ng babae sa Pinas ay hindi kasing ganda ng sumama sa Binibining Pilipinas --- though among them may mas maganda at mas may panget (which to me is kanya kanya).  Of course mayroon rin naliligaw sa mga contestants but ALL of us will agree na hindi dapat maging Top 5 ang nanay ni Pacquaio. 

Back to the guitar analogy, ang mga gitarang may hiyaw ay pang Binibinang Pilipinas material while ang guitarang walang hiyaw which is around 95% of guitars out there, ay pang Aling Dionisya.

WTF?hahahaha! :lol:
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