Technically, one can sell a copy if it is properly identified and priced accordingly, but to blatantly sell a fake as class A is more than misleading.
Presently fake Nokia's pa lang ang bawal. This should be updated.
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=77894.0
I have locked the thread in question.
Now, let's ALL discuss.
how about this sir
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=265483.0;topicseen
Para sakin, okay lang to. Pero pag commercial selling na fakies, yun dapat ang hindi pwede. Pano pag may naghahanap ng Philmusician na fake/copy/knockoff for his personal use? I know meron naman sa ibang site, but still..
i still don't get the "class A" thing. it's either legit, copy (same shape/features diff name on the headstock) or a fake one.
tsaka yun nga, it's the thing that differentiates Philmusic from other sites, they don't allow piracy here, so let's not confine it to protecting the artists making music, isama na din sana yung mga manufacturers na sumusuporta din naman sa mga artist. it's either we ban piracy across the board or permit it, no gray area.
Para sakin, okay lang to. Pero pag commercial selling na fakies, yun dapat ang hindi pwede. Pano pag may naghahanap ng Philmusician na fake/copy/knockoff for his personal use? I know meron naman sa ibang site, but still..
kung ng hahanap sha, pwede shang mag post siguro ng LF: strat/LP/jem copy. PM me.
I think pag personal item, ok lang. Pag commercial/store, hindi....including the buy-and-sell guys.
Fine line between fakes and re-decaled guitars. Re-decaled guitars have been OK if the seller declares them as re-decaled. Would fakes be ok if they're declared as fakes?
Or are we just talking about commercial items (i.e., stores) vs personal items?
I think pag personal item, ok lang. Pag commercial/store, hindi....including the buy-and-sell guys.
But still different kung makikita muna ni buyer yung ad, then decides on purchasing the item. Parang GAS.
My thoughts too. Not sure how this would be resolved. Kung 100% no fake items or may exceptions. Yun nga, pag personal item naman.
i still don't get the "class A" thing. it's either legit, copy (same shape/features diff name on the headstock) or a fake one.
tsaka yun nga, it's the thing that differentiates Philmusic from other sites, they don't allow piracy here, so let's not confine it to protecting the artists making music, isama na din sana yung mga manufacturers na sumusuporta din naman sa mga artist. it's either we ban piracy across the board or permit it, no gray area.
i still don't get the "class A" thing. it's either legit, copy (same shape/features diff name on the headstock) or a fake one.
tsaka yun nga, it's the thing that differentiates Philmusic from other sites, they don't allow piracy here, so let's not confine it to protecting the artists making music, isama na din sana yung mga manufacturers na sumusuporta din naman sa mga artist. it's either we ban piracy across the board or permit it, no gray area.
I'm new to buying guitars, if it was me I wouldn't have known if it's a fake or not. Can someone please give me some "tips" when looking for a fake or original guitar?
This shouldn't be allowed here!+1
But who would be the authority to discern a fake item from legit? On some close calls, there can be a lot people who will be quick to claim "fake!", when in fact someone in the know will have details that will prove otherwise (a one-off, or actually a repaired or modified headstock, modified part, or a refinish, etc, etc.). I guess I'm all for prohibiting counterfeits here at philmusic, but it's not 100% enforceable. :x
This is one reason why I'm on the fence with this. Who, exactly, will be the designated authority on this? Some items we can readily discern but others? One thing I would like is immediate notification to the mods about anomalous transactions so we can take quick action.
I'm new to buying guitars, if it was me I wouldn't have known if it's a fake or not. Can someone please give me some "tips" when looking for a fake or original guitar?
Perhaps we could create a report thread per classifieds board to verify an item's authenticity. we have lots of resident experts here in PM AFAIK that could help out in discerning what's legitimate or not. each and every forumite knows the go-to-guy when it comes to their respective instruments, we could then utilize their knowledge and services in identifying certain items for authenticity.
locking could only do so much. you may lock it, but the seller it still contactable.
i bid to totally erase it.
locking these threads is just a temporary fix to the situation. we are still deliberating if we should just lock these threads or delete ALL such threads in question. as soon as we get everybody's concurrence, only by then could we do so much in line with this matter. as for now, let's stick to caveat emptor.
if its prohibited...it shouldn't be posted.
if guidelines are updated and then there's 3 months period for member to adjust...and there'll be fakes in the ad..
i say lock and give a warning to the seller
This?
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=265517.0;topicseen
sir question? paano ba malaman if class a or imitation ang item? or if class a or imitation ang item na nakita namin eh ireport agad namin?thanks
Effective immediately, all classified items considered as either imitation, class A, knock offs and the like are not allowed across ALL classified boards. Please post all reports here so that the duly designated mods could take immediate action re this matter. We’re expecting everybody’s cooperation as it is crucial in maintaining order here in PM. Thanks!
this includes "customs" made by local luthiers?
hi riff, to summarize FAKE DECAL / DECALIZED not allowed - even if it is declared - I am fine with this - as a buyer of guitars, it eliminates the risk of getting a fake so to speak
What about those made by luthiers which had a "brand" decal affixed to them for aesthetic purposes? I think the forumers naman
automatically call the attention of the seller pag di completely truthful or misleading yung post esp. regarding the authenticity of the said guitar. Matagal nang ganun ang sistema. Why fix what ain't broken?
And besides, what was posted on the ad works as a contract for both parties. If the buyer agrees, whether it is decaled or class A, then
that is the liability of the buyer - he entered the contract upon agreeing. Now with regards to the seller who conceals information
to mislead people, I think we should just impost stricter rules on those kind of people. A ban maybe after a warning?
in my most honest opinion, ok lang na magbenta ng "CLASS A" here, as long as ipaalam na agad sa mga potential buyer that what they are selling are "CLASS A", discretion na ng consumer kung bibilin niya yung product or just snob on it,,, haayan natin ang buyer at ang seller ang magkasundo sa anumang pwedeng mangyari sa transaction nila,,,,
,,, the main issue here is "acceptance" .....
sa panahon ngayon, aminin man natin o sa hindi, halos lahat ng product na ginagamit natin is made in china! (in other words, CLASS A, B,C, OEM, COPY, semi-orig, semi-fake or simply fake!!! what ever you want to to call it!) - no offense w/ china pips - sige sa inyo na spratlys/Scarborough Shoal, hehehehe!
sabi nga ng isang famous journalist, "kung gusto mong bumili ng made in usa product, bumili ka sa usa, pero kung gusto mong bumili ng made in china products, kahit saan ka lumingon meron, kahit sa U.S.!,,,, minsan di ko alam kung tayo ay nagagalit dahil meron mga fakes na nagbebenta, or dahil lang sa meron nakabili ng gadget or gitara na halos kaparehas ng sa iyo, pero sa ubod ng baba na halaga!, kulang na lang di ka kumain para lang mabili mo yung dream guitar mo, tapos meron biglang halos kaparehas ng sayo, but the price is way so low!,,, nanghihinayang, naasar,,, mixed emotions,,,? ikaw lang ang makapag-decide kung ano ang feeling mo,,,,
pero isa lang ang sigurado, hangat may mga taong gusto maka-expirience kung ano man ang meron kang "expenisve stuffs" but at the same time gustong makatipid,,, CLASS A's/ FAKES will always be there!
trivia: halos 95% ng ipod products na meron tayo (kung meron man) is guess what? made/(assembled?) in china! in other words, "semi-fake?!!!" haaayyyy,,, either embrace the fact,,,, or just LOVE it!
another trivia: bago maging squire ang squire, at epiphone ang epiphone, minsan din silang tinawag na fender tele. copy at gibson LP copy guitars,,,, ginawa, to give way for less expensive guitars,,, oh, then there was "simulation pedals" copying the sounds/tone of another jaw-dropping pricey pedal,,,, and lots more,,,, THE END! GOD BLESS everyone!
para saakin, kailangan lang ma eliminate is yung posibility na its a "scam" . brandiing your locally made guitar as "fender" then selling it as a "fender" is a big NO. pangloloko yun. pero if the seller indicates "strat copy made by local luthier max rufo w/ fender decal for sale", (example lang) pretty straight forward, siguro ok lang? siguro ung dapat ding i regulate is using "sugar coated words" like "custom" or "class a", dapat ilagay sa add na "COPY" or "locally made" if dito ginawa.
the thing is unfair din siguro sa forumer na gusto lang ibenta ung gear kasi kailangan ng pera or may GAS, everyone is entitled to GAS!!! hehe
lts admit, there is a market for these items.
parang nangyayari kasi eh "BAWALA ANG HINDI ORIGINAL NA BRANDED"
what do you guys think?
So would the decal makers be also hit by this policy since they are in theory using copyrighted logos and encouraging the
use of such items?
Question: How about classical guitars like the ones made by US-Based luthier Darren Hippner.
he does make copies of guitars made by the old world masters like Huaser, Fleta and others
labelled as i.e (Darren Hippner "Hauser") what is your stand on this? pls bear in mind that the chances of getting a top of the line classical guitar with the brand/maker name decaled on to the headstock is slim to non. With that being said, most if not all of them would put their name/brand inside the guitar's body (on the inside part of the back piece directly visible from the sound hole)
therefore making it it very easy to print/or fabricate a fake "Hermann Hauser" insert and make a Darren Hippner "Hauser" copy into a Fake Hauser. how would you stand up to this?
O.T in the classical guitar circle we consider these guitars By Hippner and many others as "hommage" guitars not fakes.
the term "copy" or "custom" is too broad and general for that matter to be used when branding items for sale IMO. this is often where the gray area comes in. We could perhaps allow tailor-made stuff as long as it doesn't misrepresent a product or brand.
Let's set things straight:
*Counterfeits, Redecaled, Replicas, "Class A" items and the likes are not allowed.
*Tailor-made items are allowed as long as it's not re-decaled since it's a misrepresentation of the brand name. one can sell a guitar copied from a certain model as long as you keep it either "unbranded" or "customized".
*For people looking at buying or selling these kinds of items; as I mentioned, other sites allow or often cater to these. We won't allow people to post links to other sites as a workaround.
let's keep the ideas flowing guys! we need everybody's opinions and a deliberated-upon agreement so we could iron things out and implement things for the better. again, your opinions matter. Thanks! :mrgreen:
So would the decal makers be also hit by this policy since they are in theory using copyrighted logos and encouraging the
use of such items?
good question, selling a re-decaled guitar is bad, what about the actual decals that are being sold?
id like to know who makes custom decals though, id like to re-decal my jackson to "chuckson" lol :lol:
mods,
Question: How about classical guitars like the ones made by US-Based luthier Darren Hippner.
he does make copies of guitars made by the old world masters like Hauser, Fleta and others
labelled as i.e (Darren Hippner "Hauser") what is your stand on this? pls bear in mind that the chances of getting a top of the line classical guitar with the brand/maker name decaled on to the headstock is slim to none. With that being said, most if not all of them would put their name/brand inside the guitar's body (on the inside part of the back piece directly visible from the sound hole)
therefore making it it very easy to print/or fabricate a fake "Hermann Hauser" insert and make a Darren Hippner "Hauser" copy into a Fake Hauser. how would you stand up to this?
the dude's got a point, out of curiosity, do we have anyone whose selling a Darren Hippner classical Guitar in the classified section? tried looking for one, puro MIJ's nakita ko.
O.T in the classical guitar circle we consider these guitars By Hippner and many others as "hommage" guitars not fakes.
sa tinging ko, kung natatakot ang philmusic site about the ever-rising of this so called "CLASS A" and "COPY" products,,,, eh,,,,
wala naman dapat ikatakot ang philmusic site about copyright policy, kasi @ the end of every transaction, its the buyer and seller who is going to do the talking and paying, so hayaan nating ang both parties who made the transaction to be responsible and and liable about their said transaction,,, tama yung isang forumer - rtf_axeman "BAWAL ANG HINDI ORIGINAL NA BRANDED"
di nga? may original pa ba sa panahon ngayon,,, baka bilang na lang sa daliri, baka yang pinagmamalaki mong gitara ngayon eh peke pala or somehow been manufactured by another party that has been "rented"/"paid" by the MANUFACTURER of your guitar para sila mismo makatipid,,,
example ulit, ipod, its a US product, but assembled in china, will we consider it as fake? guess not, bec. even apple admits that labor is coslty @ their own land, thus making some cost-cutting
now, alam naman nating ang pinaguusapan dito is guitars and other musical instruments,,,,
this is my suggestion: why dont we post a warning like what we see sa mga shows, it goes something like this: "The opinions, comments and/or suggestions expressed here are those of the host and do not necessarily reflect the opinions, comments and/or suggestions expressed by the show"
one more example (sa mga restaurant naman): "Do not leave your valuables unattended for the restaurant will not hold the responsibility for your lost" ,,,, tapos,,,, " BEWARE of THIEVES"
BTW: sulit.com is also using that kind of warning
i know that our mods are very smart enough to read between the lines of these examples and somehow re-phrase it or "DECALED" it (hehehe) for the benefit of the site and most especially,,, for the the forumers/sellers/buyers,,, kasi kung wala kami, wala po kayong minomodorate na site and for sure kapag napatupad ang "BAWAL ANG HINDI ORIGINAL NA BRANDED" policy, mas magiging madali ang work niyo mga sir, if you know what i mean, i have the highest respect w/ you mga sir so dont get me wrong,,, RESPECT, GOD BLESS!!!
grabe, ngayon lang ako naging ganito ka-hook sa isang thread/topic
If that's the case, my custom-made PRS 22 doesn't actually have a "PRS" decal. It's Park S.H., or Song Hee (or something like that, can't remember to be honest), so I'm not in breach of any PM rules.
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=244661.0
Really need to sell within the next couple of weeks so would appreciate a prompt unlock. Thanks.
Can of worms now open.
Thanks a bunch. To offer my two cents: although I think that a rigid set of rules may take some time to get perfect, it's great that this kind of movement is being implemented.I agree, I strongly believe, that if rules are to be implemented, there should be no holes in it.
yes. it's a clear form of piracy; the matter lies whether you support it or not. by attaching a decal of a certain brand to the gear that you're selling, that's clearly a "misinterpretation" of an item being sold.
My concern is for the fair and equal implementation of the recent rules across
all musical instruments and accessories.
in my most honest opinion, ok lang na magbenta ng "CLASS A" here, as long as ipaalam na agad sa mga potential buyer that what they are selling are "CLASS A", discretion na ng consumer kung bibilin niya yung product or just snob on it,,, haayan natin ang buyer at ang seller ang magkasundo sa anumang pwedeng mangyari sa transaction nila,,,,
,,, the main issue here is "acceptance" .....
sa panahon ngayon, aminin man natin o sa hindi, halos lahat ng product na ginagamit natin is made in china! (in other words, CLASS A, B,C, OEM, COPY, semi-orig, semi-fake or simply fake!!! what ever you want to to call it!) - no offense w/ china pips - sige sa inyo na spratlys/Scarborough Shoal, hehehehe!
sabi nga ng isang famous journalist, "kung gusto mong bumili ng made in usa product, bumili ka sa usa, pero kung gusto mong bumili ng made in china products, kahit saan ka lumingon meron, kahit sa U.S.!,,,, minsan di ko alam kung tayo ay nagagalit dahil meron mga fakes na nagbebenta, or dahil lang sa meron nakabili ng gadget or gitara na halos kaparehas ng sa iyo, pero sa ubod ng baba na halaga!, kulang na lang di ka kumain para lang mabili mo yung dream guitar mo, tapos meron biglang halos kaparehas ng sayo, but the price is way so low!,,, nanghihinayang, naasar,,, mixed emotions,,,? ikaw lang ang makapag-decide kung ano ang feeling mo,,,,
pero isa lang ang sigurado, hangat may mga taong gusto maka-expirience kung ano man ang meron kang "expenisve stuffs" but at the same time gustong makatipid,,, CLASS A's/ FAKES will always be there!
trivia: halos 95% ng ipod products na meron tayo (kung meron man) is guess what? made/(assembled?) in china! in other words, "semi-fake?!!!" haaayyyy,,, either embrace the fact,,,, or just LOVE it!
another trivia: bago maging squire ang squire, at epiphone ang epiphone, minsan din silang tinawag na fender tele. copy at gibson LP copy guitars,,,, ginawa, to give way for less expensive guitars,,, oh, then there was "simulation pedals" copying the sounds/tone of another jaw-dropping pricey pedal,,,, and lots more,,,, THE END! GOD BLESS everyone!
I think the decal itself is a misrepresentation since Fender does offer that service of replacing a worn out decal with a genuine one.
"Made in China" is different from "fake". It doesn't matter where it's made - a fake is a fake.
IMO, this (the selling of counterfeit items) shouldn't be allowed here. Think about the people that will waste their hard-earned money (I know.. Caveat Emptor and all - pero tulungan na rin natin yung mga less savvy members). Think about the culture/attitude it promotes. It's the kind of thing that I don't want Philmusic to be associated with, especially given the site's status as the best place to buy gear locally. Let's not water the image/reputation down with these kinds of sellers.
Kung may gusto naman bumili ng peke talaga, pwede naman siya makahanap nang madali elsewhere. No need to accomodate them, imo.
"Made in China" is different from "fake". It doesn't matter where it's made - a fake is a fake.
thus, i respectfully disagree to these statement: "The actions of the members reflect the reputation of the site. PM is involved no matter what since the transactions originated here. Say for example somebody asks, "where did you buy that Class A gear?", one may reply in general "sa nakilala ko sa philmusic.com" or "sa taga-philmusic.com" instead of "kay riff_6603" etc. PM originated and flourished even before the classifieds came to be" ,,,, the example is good at napangiti rin ako, kasi miski ako di ko maalala yung username ng katransact ko kapag ganyan ka-complicated... but seriously, thats why i strongly agree to always have the PM users/buyers to review the sellers and the products that they are going to buy, for at the end of the day, they will be the one who is going to be responsible, and the site will not be liable about that for all the necesarry instructions/precautions had been advised by the site Even if you review Ebay's, amazon's and sulit.com's policies, warning such as this has always been present,,, LET US NOT PERSONIFY PHILMUSIC,,, let the "Masang PM users" decide pero parang naka-decide na yata ang kinauukulan eh... well then, my full trust and respect will always be w/ the MODS. God Bless everyone!
Last post ko na to sir for this. Shouldn't this matter be decided through a poll instead? Para fair to all at wala nang masabi
ang lahat. Just my suggestion...
I agree with your point. the site indeed is not accountable but still, damay pa din "in a way". I salute you for being a responsible individual when it comes to fair trade, but not everyone practices such ideals unfortunately. What were trying to protect here are the members, as well as the site's rep as a whole. We understand that it won't be 100% foolproof; no matter how heavy a sanction could be when certain policies are transgressed, or no matter how detailed any disclaimers are presented. We've had "caveat emptor" for the longest time, but still we're getting cries from the masses re unfair trade and practices. this action all originated from the masa's pleas - we're only making things official. If not for PM's concerned forumites, we wouldn't have this rule in the first place IMHO.
Last post ko na to sir for this. Shouldn't this matter be decided through a poll instead? Para fair to all at wala nang masabi
ang lahat. Just my suggestion...
landslide. haha
kung gusto nila mag post ng counterfeits, sa sulit nalang or other ad sites.
Questions lang sirs. (Sorry newbie kasi). For us newbs to further understand which is fake or not, here's a list of sample situations. Please tell which is legit:
1. Gibson Les Paul ("Gibson" as indicated in the headstock) but labeled Class A by the seller: Y/N?
2. Tokai Les Paul (actual Tokai brand indicated in the headstock) but shape and make is obviously a copy or imitation: Y/N?
3. Is a Copy different from a Replica (i.e. given Tokai Les Pauls as an example): Y/N?
4. Does the term Imitation is also different from a Replica? Y/N?
5. If the guitar brand itself is licensed to do replicas or imitations of popular guitar shapes like the Strat or the Les Paul, are they allowed to be sold here in PM? Y/N?
I hope these questions make sense to you guys. Sorry, 'coz I'm no expert. Thanks! :)
Okay, my thread seems to be getting locked every other day.
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=244661.0
Please help out mods.
Okay, my thread seems to be getting locked every other day.
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=244661.0
Please help out mods.
i voted yes,
imho, i think we should allow them to sell those fake but classified as "class A"/fake/copy, rather than not allowing them but in return they will sell it secretly as an original..
kawawa naman po yung makakabili na hindi alam i-classify yung fake sa legit..
unless someone will do legal actions para maayos yung mga victims ng mga ganitong transactions..
Why and how is that NOT a fake? You have a script thing going on at the headstock, the same bird species on the inlays, body shape, headstock shape, control routing, mention PRS, mention Custom 22, all in your ad!! Suggest the mods take a hard and fast approach if they want to implement this rule, now that the initiative is there.
So now we can have luthier made fender, luthier made les paul copies? Nasa wording lang? Sorry bro, I think you know very well what you are selling fits the profile of what this philmusic initiative IS against. You know it's NOT a PRS... you sell it on the appeal and illusion of a PRS.
EDIT: I can see that the thread in question has been unlocked. So that partly constitutes an agreement among philmusic mods? At least the one who unlocked it? What prevents the scrupulous sellers (not necessarily the owner of the fake PRS) from re-listing their wares using the same technical description and workarounds?
the term "copy" or "custom" is too broad and general for that matter to be used when branding items for sale IMO. this is often where the gray area comes in. We could perhaps allow tailor-made stuff as long as it doesn't misrepresent a product or brand.
Let's set things straight:
*Counterfeits, Redecaled, Replicas, "Class A" items and the likes are not allowed.
*Tailor-made items are allowed as long as it's not re-decaled since it's a misrepresentation of the brand name. one can sell a guitar copied from a certain model as long as you keep it either "unbranded" or "customized".
*For people looking at buying or selling these kinds of items; as I mentioned, other sites allow or often cater to these. We won't allow people to post links to other sites as a workaround.
let's keep the ideas flowing guys! we need everybody's opinions and a deliberated-upon agreement so we could iron things out and implement things for the better. again, your opinions matter. Thanks! :mrgreen:
If that's the case, my custom-made PRS 22 doesn't actually have a "PRS" decal. It's Park S.H., or Song Hee (or something like that, can't remember to be honest), so I'm not in breach of any PM rules.
was it clarified in the first place? I understand the part that it was custom made, the reason why it was locked perhaps was the "PRS" tag IMO. now that it has been clarified then consider the thread unlocked. our apologies for the misunderstanding.
Okay, my thread seems to be getting locked every other day.
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=244661.0
Please help out mods.
hmm.. try clarifying your post. I remember modifying your thread to specify the exact meaning of "PRS" with regard to your item. kasi if it's clear that it's technically not a "paul reed smith" redecal or misrepresentation of the term then as I mentioned before, it should be good since pasok siya sa "custom-made" wares. I'll try to talk with the GC mods to clarify kung bakit palagi na-lock yung thread mo. I'll unlock it again.
guys, check this out:
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=244661.0
as for the seller, it's technically a custom-made guitar and not a fake. the thread keeps getting locked though. comments? :?
title pa lang eh FSO PRS custom 22 copy agad...parang ang dating ad din nina ******* na Ibanez Jem copy....
preferably the title should read as:
FSO Park S.H. Custom 22
nakalagay pa sa details ng ad
"Custom-made PRS (Park S.H - Song Hee) SE Custom 22 Copy"
kind of misleading, why label it custom made PRS when its not PRS...
basta ang ilagay ay Park SH custom 22 kung baga Tokai Les Paul, or Ferandes Tele...huwag ng iquote ang original brand.
wala ng PRS, PRS.
Why and how is that NOT a fake? You have a script thing going on at the headstock, the same bird species on the inlays, body shape, headstock shape, control routing, mention PRS, mention Custom 22, all in your ad!! Suggest the mods take a hard and fast approach if they want to implement this rule, now that the initiative is there.
So now we can have luthier made fender, luthier made les paul copies? Nasa wording lang? Sorry bro, I think you know very well what you are selling fits the profile of what this philmusic initiative IS against. You know it's NOT a PRS... you sell it on the appeal and illusion of a PRS.
EDIT: I can see that the thread in question has been unlocked. So that partly constitutes an agreement among philmusic mods? At least the one who unlocked it? What prevents the scrupulous sellers (not necessarily the owner of the fake PRS) from re-listing their wares using the same technical description and workarounds?
Regarding luthiers making custom copies or custom ones. Here is a scenario, there are luthiers that will make exact copy, from materials to dimensions/cuts/shapes up to decals. Would that be allowed here? This would be another gray area right?
This got me thinking. What about shred head-madbean pcb issue and some pedal clones - plugs - wampler? Jason wilding clearly voiced his opinion back then, he posted here in pm na.
What about Tom Bartlett? Custom builds highly illegal Gibson head stocks, may thread pa sya sa mlp forum. He is aware of it that's why he blurs the headstock pics, but still he do custom orders.
the purpose of someone redecaling an item is to boost its "so called" value and hype - misrepresentation na kapag ganyan.
Sorry I had to comment again. Hear me out on this one. So if the spirit of this rule is to prevent the "seller" from jacking up the value of his/her guitar by redecalling then one could still still sell the redecalled guitar by accurately telling the original specs of the guitar without even mentioning the decal (such as the PRS copy above). That way he does not give an incorrect representation of the product he sells.
Sorry I had to comment again. Hear me out on this one. So if the spirit of this rule is to prevent the "seller" from jacking up the value of his/her guitar by redecalling then one could still still sell the redecalled guitar by accurately telling the original specs of the guitar without even mentioning the decal (such as the PRS copy above). That way he does not give an incorrect representation of the product he sells.
+1
And he doesn't even have to show the headstock. :x Pero siguro, it would still boil down to the buyer agreeing to a purchase without being given info on the headstock or decal. Would you buy, kung sakali? Imagine meeting up and being told, "Oh btw bro, may fender decal nga pala." Di na kasalanan ng classifieds yun.
But I agree, masyado madali to circumvent this rule. If one wants to sell replicas /fakes /class A, he still ways to sell it here. Im still on the position some hard lines need to be drawn. Originally, I'm really skeptical this type of ruling can be implemented, because of the grey areas and the need for [dedicated] expert assessment.
One scenario. What if I had a respectable luthier build a Les Paul copy for me, complete with Gibson decal. But his custom nuild includes certification from the luthier. Will I be allowed to sell it here?
certification from the company itself to use their name on a custom build? kasi honestly I've never heard of a custom built that came with an authorized decal before, unless you have the papers to prove it siguro. sorry if I misunderstood your statement. :?
Certification from the luthier that it's his work. And the decals are there to recreate the '59 LP look.
oh I see. well then nope. best to leave it without decals to avoid any infringement issues.
you could have one created if it's for personal indulgence, but when you sell it - that's where the issue would arise.
The minute you apply someone else's trademark to merchandise,
WITHOUT the trademark owner's consent, you've created a fake.
If selling fakes on GC is to be banned, we have to be clear on the
above principle: as clear as the law on trademarks already is.
So if the spirit of this rule is to prevent the "seller" from jacking up the value of his/her guitar by redecalling then one could still still sell the redecalled guitar by accurately telling the original specs of the guitar without even mentioning the decal (such as the PRS copy above). That way he does not give an incorrect representation of the product he sells.
oh I see. well then nope. best to leave it without decals to avoid any infringement issues. you could have one created if it's for personal indulgence, but when you sell it - that's where the issue would arise.Hang on, there. :-P
Just as I posted earlier on this thread:
A brand's cachet and marketability, and thus the manufacturer's profit, can
be harmed by the unauthorized appearance of a trademark on articles of
shoddy quality --the manufacturer alone determines what's good enough,
to earn the right to bear its trademark/brand. Kaya nga merong licensing.
No matter how renowned a luthier, if he hasn't a license to apply someone
else's registered trademark/brand, he can't do so legally. Fake 'yun, even
if it's for just one customer.
Same goes for an individual faking a guitar via decal "for their own use",
especially if they post an image online --kasi, again, it publicly harms the
cachet/marketability of the trademark/brand, as described above.
Some guitar fora ban images of illegally-branded guitars, period.
It doesn't matter whether the guitars are for sale or not, because said
fora wish to avoid any appearance of encouraging trademark violations,
which have nothing to do with whether the article is for sale or not:
A brand illegally-applied is made illegal by mere application, not by reselling
an article so-branded. [1]
This has bearing on what GC actually intends to accomplish with any new
"branding" rule. See below:
I don't think that's the "spirit", but I may be wrong.
At minimum, the spirit of GC's emerging "rule", is to save GC harmless from
any legal exposure wrt trademark violations; to wit, serving as a venue for
the selling of fake goods. To that minimal extent, for so long as GC wasn't
aware that any goods sold are/were fake (by dint of a seller excluding any
images of illegal branding), GC's legally in the clear. For now.
At maximum, the rule can aim to proactively-prevent trademark violations within GC's online turf, as "the right thing to do". This might only be done by REQUIRING all sellers to show images of their merchandise, showing where brands/decals normally appear. This might be very difficult to implement, as
it would likely lead to much heavier bandwidth consumption, thus increased
forum costs and retarded server performance, which latter is remedied only
at greater cost. If GC owners are willing to eat said cost increases, as well
as a drop in Classified's postings, then they can require sellers (I'd hesitate
to label them more formally as 'vendors') to post said 'branding' images.
GC may be better off with a minimal "don't ask, don't tell" stance: if a seller
reveals trademark violations, or if GC members ferret it out and report it to
GC staff, then GC must act; but GC may not be able to afford REQUIRING all
sellers to post "branding" images and/or videos.
JM2.
[1] Brand-owners (the manufacturers) are very tolerant of alterations made to
their merchandise (witness the healthy modification market), but have always
jealously guarded their trademarks. As major manufacturers become publicly
owned, this jealousy will only intensify: shareholders often brook nothing that
harms company profits (thence share price and dividends).
Is the prohibition premised on the assumption (rightly or wrongly) that "original" equipment is always better than the copy, a.k.a "fake" (put in another way, copies will never be better or equal to the original), hence the need to protect unsuspecting buyers? Is quality gear always equated to original gear?
I am asking this because the idea of "better" is very subjective and is a function of personal need. What is better for me may not be true for somebody else. When my friend and I needed a guitar to experiment on, it was better for us to do it on a mere copy, and he did buy a "fake" guitar because it suits our purpose.
On the question of quality, a copy can be at par or even better than the original. Take Fender for example. In the 70's, Japan was producing very high quality Fender copies, knock-offs and fakes. The solution of Fender was to license these Japanese fake manufacturers and slapped the name of Fender on their guitars. Fender did not create a new factory in Japan in order to establish a distinction between a Japanese copy and a genuine/original. In a manner of speaking, Fender made the "fake" guitars into "original" guitars but it was not the act of licensing that made the "fakes" into a very high quality guitars.
I know that the prohibition against copies has already been decided upon. But isn't it that what we are really against is the commission of fraud between the buyer and the seller? Why interfere between a buyer and seller mutually knowing and agreeing to transact on a mere copy item? What we should do is to focus our attention against scammers passing copies as originals. In other words, misrepresenting gear to defraud others, not only in terms of misusing trade names but also in misrepresenting the operability and quality of the item.
A scammer will always try to find ways to achieve his designs. However, a seller may also be in good faith believing that his fake gear is original. Without self- or internal-regulation, a fake item can easily pass on if it will not be scruitinized or exposed. I remember the days when the "experts" here in PhilMusic were free to comment on an item put out for sale. I also miss the requests for clearer pictures of a particular part of the item to verify its authenticity or quality, hinting at a possible irregularity. Indeed, I learned a lot from those comments and it made me aware of a lot of peculiarities of a lot of guitars. It was a sort of self-regulation that prevented the sale of fakes or warned others of a possible fake. Many of those comments even exposed undesireable peculiarities or damages in the item being offered that I would not have known or noticed. I do not understand why this was construed as useless chit-chat and later proscribed. Even with the new prohibition, who will say that a particular item being offered for sale is fake or not? It's the seller's word against nobody's because comments are no longer allowed. Woe to the unsuspecting buyer becaused we could not prevent him from being duped.
paano kung walang decal yung gitara, pero alam nating lahat na ito ay kopya ng jem halimbawa, bawal din ba?
para saakin, kailangan lang ma eliminate is yung posibility na its a "scam" . brandiing your locally made guitar as "fender" then selling it as a "fender" is a big NO. pangloloko yun. pero if the seller indicates "strat copy made by local luthier max rufo w/ fender decal for sale", (example lang) pretty straight forward, siguro ok lang? siguro ung dapat ding i regulate is using "sugar coated words" like "custom" or "class a", dapat ilagay sa add na "COPY" or "locally made" if dito ginawa.
the thing is unfair din siguro sa forumer na gusto lang ibenta ung gear kasi kailangan ng pera or may GAS, everyone is entitled to GAS!!! hehe
lts admit, there is a market for these items.
parang nangyayari kasi eh "BAWALA ANG HINDI ORIGINAL NA BRANDED"
what do you guys think?
Good Day. Anak po ito ni Max Rufo. Just to clear things up, we never decalize any branded guitar. In fact our guitar sounds better than them. Thanks! Have a good day ahead.
Hello! I would like some clarifications on the matter.
For example, I have a Strat copy with a Fender decal. Even if I specifically state in both the subject title and post proper that it's a copy and has a Fender decal on it and I price it as a low-level guitar (i.e. less than P5000), it won't be allowed?
Thank you for your consideration!
Hello! I would like some clarifications on the matter.
For example, I have a Strat copy with a Fender decal. Even if I specifically state in both the subject title and post proper that it's a copy and has a Fender decal on it and I price it as a low-level guitar (i.e. less than P5000), it won't be allowed?
Thank you for your consideration!
ei bro wag mo naman murahin mga mods natin, di naman natin pinapa sweldo yang mga yan. plus libre ang pag gamit sa philmusic so kung ano yung rules nung may-ari, sunod na lang tayo dun.
ANONG KARAPATAN NYO PIGILAN ANG MGA BUYER BUMILI NG CLASS A ITEMS?
KAYO BA MAGBABAYAD?
KAYO BA MAPAPAGOD MAKIPAG-MEET UP?
UU MAY ORIG NGA.. PERO SOBRANG MAHAL AT SAME QUALITY LNG NMAN SA CLASS A.
GAMITIN NYO PO ANG MGA UTAK NYO KUNG MAY MGA PINAG-ARALAN KAYO..
MGA [grape] BA KAYO O SADYANG MALIKOT LANG MGA UTAK NYO?
Pinag-babawal din po ba magbenta ng class A na item specially 100% working xa?
Specially to my Irig Amplitube.
may orig nito pero same quality pero sobrang mahal..
Made in Japan.
Class A Made in China
Bkit yan bang mga Iphone,Ipad,Itouch nyo.. di ba galing ng China yan?
maging fair po kayo specially to the Admin's here.
dahil mas nagiging practical lng po ang mga musicians ngun dahil sa mahal na mga gamit nla.
pinagkakait ninyo ang kalayaan para mamili ang mga musicians pra sa mga gamit nla..
LABAS NA PO KAYO SA DEAL NG SELLER AT BUYER.
DAHIL HNDI PO KAYO ANG BIBILI..
SALAMAT NA RIN SA PAGLOCK NG POST KO.
AT MARAMING PANG-NAGBEBENTA NITO JAN SA FORUM NYO..
AT I-LOCK NYO RIN..
[apple] NYO ADMIN KAYO!
^^ kalma lang brad :-D
Daming usapang peke ngayon ah. Meron yung "authentic" na Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, etc. sa guitar classifieds ngayon. How about mister irigonlineshop? Ano ba issue niya? Pekeng Irig? I never knew may ganun pala. Is it because made in China?
Going back to the non-Iphone era, diba ang Nokia may made in Finland, China, etc? Hindi naman peke yung made in China eh. Unless when the phone is openly called as "China phone", like the ones with tv kahit yung original model wala naman talagang tv. In the case of mister irigonlineshop, I really don't know kung peke nga ba o hindi yung item niya - whether if it's made in China or somewhere else.
yung iRig kasi, brand yun. kung sana wlang tatak na iRig. pero yung gamitin nya yung iRig na brand to sell those as iRig Class A, its counterfeit kahit na saan mo tignan.
hindi nya ata matangap yun :p
Daming usapang peke ngayon ah. Meron yung "authentic" na Gibson, Fender, Ibanez, etc. sa guitar classifieds ngayon. How about mister irigonlineshop? Ano ba issue niya? Pekeng Irig? I never knew may ganun pala. Is it because made in China?
Going back to the non-Iphone era, diba ang Nokia may made in Finland, China, etc? Hindi naman peke yung made in China eh. Unless when the phone is openly called as "China phone", like the ones with tv kahit yung original model wala naman talagang tv. In the case of mister irigonlineshop, I really don't know kung peke nga ba o hindi yung item niya - whether if it's made in China or somewhere else.
Word of advice to people posting on this thread: let us be civil in dealing with this matter. We are not animals, let us conduct ourselves accordingly; let us not resort to foul language.
ANONG KARAPATAN NYO PIGILAN ANG MGA BUYER BUMILI NG CLASS A ITEMS?
KAYO BA MAGBABAYAD?
KAYO BA MAPAPAGOD MAKIPAG-MEET UP?
UU MAY ORIG NGA.. PERO SOBRANG MAHAL AT SAME QUALITY LNG NMAN SA CLASS A.
GAMITIN NYO PO ANG MGA UTAK NYO KUNG MAY MGA PINAG-ARALAN KAYO..
MGA [grape] BA KAYO O SADYANG MALIKOT LANG MGA UTAK NYO?
so you find ULOL foul language? ano ba translation ng ULOL? hindi ba stupid?
how would you define this way of thinking?.
I wasn't referring to you, I was referring to irigonlineshop as he is the one who said [apple] nyo admin kayo." Got it? Good.
how about my for trade post?
i indicated "t-style"(definitely important when trading telecaster types),
i indicated "Homage" (that means alot in watch trades, and since the guitar is not a "replica" (could be a replica if i completed the slotted screws, NOS pots and caps)
i indicated "build".
i put the specs of the guitar and everything, the parts used, brands, licensed, 3rd party etc etc etc.
i indicated that a "repro" decal was used and can be removed by interested party.
i thought i got everything covered big time...
... still got locked.
im lost here, help me out? thanks
Hi boss.
It has a fender decal. We know you have indicated it as homage, but it could get passed on and on and on until finally someone decides to sell it as an authentic fender. And it has happened.
Mas maigi na lang siguro na tanggalin ang decals ng mga partscaster or other guitars na built from different parts. That is, kung gusto talagang mai-post dito sa PhilMusic.
physically alisin? theres no serial number, nor any indication that will make the guitar any authentic than american burger
i wonder if i can just photoshop it na lang, and not mention the decal? thats how its done in the other forum anyway. tdpri. tgp. mylespaul. where they just block the logo. mas mabilis kasuhan sa kanila right? yet they just allow shooping the headstock. what do you guys think?
i guess my concern is how do i properly advertise it? if i remove "fender" text and one will think what is a "broadcaster?"
if i remove fender text, there are actually fender parts or licensed fender parts in the ad.
what if interested party like the decal too to complete the homage look?
also with regards to counterfeit, fakes etc... i think there should be a sticky on how to spot one. or some kind of neighborhood watch thread, where people can post the guitar they spotted and forum members can chime in how to spot if its fake. or atleast educate potential buyers what to look for in a real guitar e.g. shape. serial. minute details. dates. wood grain. feel of the knurl of the knob. request for an exploded view/detailed pics of disassembled parts, price.
What is the Philmusic stand on parts guitars? As in guitars made up of individual parts collected from other guitars. I'm not sure if this is what I think it is but one of my FS threads was shut down in the bass section. It was made clear that it was a parts bass with a P-series Jazz Bass neck and electronics in a replacement body with aftermarket guard. It was an old thread where I had been a different item, so akala ko routine maintenance to clear threads older than xxx days. When I saw an obviously faked "Fender Jazzmaster" in the guitar classifieds, I started to think na baka namisconstrue yung item ko as a fake. I wasn't passing my bass off as a Fender, but I clearly specified that I had a bass with Fender parts complete with serial number (which I did not mention, although I did state it was P-series MIJ).
Is there a better way to present parts guitars that isn't "misleading" or does the counterfeit restriction also apply to parts guitars?
Sorry, mejo praning. Pero I've been buying and selling here a while and it's the first time na nangyari 'to sakin. I messaged a mod about it (toybitz, was it you?) but I haven't gotten a response. This was months/weeks ago pa. If I should ever go out of line, sana man lang I could've been messaged or flagged or something.
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=270546.msg3694299#msg3694299
I ended up selling it for much less. I only priced it that way because I was expecting a lowball and I got one.
sir Riff... my ad was locked by toybitz. -_- http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=282911
Sir riff. its doesnt seem fair??? kasi my ad is a custom strat. its a john mayer TBO stratocaster and its not the real deal which is a custom shop, only 83 in the world and costs $16k usd... I dont have that kind of money to spend for a guitar. :-( a mayer fan went out of his way to pay tribute to JM. is that bad?? :cry: i dont think its fair that he categorized my guitar as counterfeit coz the body's not from fender. its a Micsis custom made body for cryin out loud. its not fake? its customed to be like john mayers guitar kahit sa specs and looks man lang...
-_- and it was captain backfire to who did the relicing job. nakalagay naman po clearly sa ad ko na its a custom micsis body tpos i tried reasoning with toybitz kindly pero, bakit ganun??? parang hndi nya naman inexercise ung good judgement? :-( no exemptions daw kahit custom made :( e andami ko nkkta sa pm. ung iba nga walang tatak pero SG type or strat type. or upgraded parts and project guitars. e bakit tong sakin hndi pwde??? eeeeeeeehhh sighhhsss... btw, this guitar was formerly Nong's. a DIE HARD MAYER FAN... nsa classifieds na to dati pa, pero bkt nung ako na. wla na?? thanks. Bless u.
- post edited as per TS' request
i asked the present seller, si chuckell...hindi original fender body ang binebenta niya. Original fender neck.
so I locked it.
Never mentioned anything about counterfeit (such a strong word). So sa paguusap na lang iyon nila ni Nong iyon.
we locked Esse's gibson replica, so there, I locked the fender replica.
I hope this helps boss.
Is there a better way to present parts guitars that isn't "misleading" or does the counterfeit restriction also apply to parts guitars?
i like the suggestion above...something that went like..."bakit hindi na lang tanggalin ang decal para mabenta dito sa Philmusic".kaso sir pano pag ung project guitars? gaya ng akin? "Micsis" ang brand ng body ko, nakaindicate naman. bawal po ba un?? Neck ko fender talaga. hindi ba sya nag ffall sa category ng custom guitar??? indicated naman sa ad ko. iibahin ko nalang ung title... FS: Custom Stratocaster (TBO inspired) something like that. pwde ba un?
that's a proactive and more responsible approach.
kaso sir pano pag ung project guitars? gaya ng akin? "Micsis" ang brand ng body ko, nakaindicate naman. bawal po ba un?? Neck ko fender talaga. hindi ba sya nag ffall sa category ng custom guitar??? indicated naman sa ad ko. iibahin ko nalang ung title... FS: Custom Stratocaster (TBO inspired) something like that. pwde ba un?
Based on the discussion, it won't be allowed. Even the $8K '59 Tom Bartlett LP replica FS thread was locked (it has a Gibson Logo).
May custom guitar na na-lock ang thread:
As discussed and deliberated by the mod team, we're allowing custom made items, redecaled or not as long as exhaustive details were presented. Those who simply redecal their items (e.g. for the sake of upping their item value - "fernando redecaled to gibson" etc.) are not allowed still.
As discussed and deliberated by the mod team, we're allowing custom made items, redecaled or not as long as exhaustive details were presented. Those who simply redecal their items (e.g. for the sake of upping their item value - "fernando redecaled to gibson" etc.) are not allowed still.
I also would like to announce the recently inducted members of the "classifieds watch team" to help us mods in implementing fair trade across PM's Classified Boards.
DyuN_whamMe
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?action=profile;u=11486
gunslinger13
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?action=profile;u=33496
siore
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?action=profile;u=22537
qroon
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?action=profile;u=19297
grasyaps
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?action=profile;u=18350
also there is a matter that I would like to discuss that perhaps might had been overlooked, if not given lesser attention:What is the Philmusic stand on parts guitars? As in guitars made up of individual parts collected from other guitars. I'm not sure if this is what I think it is but one of my FS threads was shut down in the bass section. It was made clear that it was a parts bass with a P-series Jazz Bass neck and electronics in a replacement body with aftermarket guard. It was an old thread where I had been a different item, so akala ko routine maintenance to clear threads older than xxx days. When I saw an obviously faked "Fender Jazzmaster" in the guitar classifieds, I started to think na baka namisconstrue yung item ko as a fake. I wasn't passing my bass off as a Fender, but I clearly specified that I had a bass with Fender parts complete with serial number (which I did not mention, although I did state it was P-series MIJ).
Is there a better way to present parts guitars that isn't "misleading" or does the counterfeit restriction also apply to parts guitars?
Sorry, mejo praning. Pero I've been buying and selling here a while and it's the first time na nangyari 'to sakin. I messaged a mod about it (toybitz, was it you?) but I haven't gotten a response. This was months/weeks ago pa. If I should ever go out of line, sana man lang I could've been messaged or flagged or something.
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=270546.msg3694299#msg3694299
I ended up selling it for much less. I only priced it that way because I was expecting a lowball and I got one.
discuss.
discuss.
Resurrecting the thread. Medyo umikot tayo sa decal issue noon, na-overlook na yung frankenstein/partscaster topic. Inputs anyone? The mod team is pretty OK with it, I would like to hear the forumites' side this time around.
mauna na ako magsabi - "Can of worms now open" :idea:
imo its alright, as long as DECLARED, not that anyone would actually buy one :wave:
imo its alright, as long as DECLARED, not that anyone would actually buy one :wave:
+1. The concern comes when even the seller does not know whether or not the item s/he is selling is counterfeit/frankenstein/whatever. Not everyone one of us here are knowledgeable about the musical instruments we play. This is where the Classifieds watch team, the entire community and the "Report to Moderator" button comes in, I guess.
A question for the mods, what happens when a forumer hits the "Report to Moderator"/RTM button? I clicked it once earlier this week, and was satisfied to see the immediate result. I'm asking this with due recognizance of the effort the sellers make in posting their items. At para na rin masigurado kong hindi ako, bilang yun taong pinindot ang RTM button, nakaka-agrabyado.
just saw this..Next time bro "report to mod" mo na lang. Baka di pa lang nila nakita yan. I'm sure hindi pa din pwede magbenta ng fakes.
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=306392.0
titled as Gibson Les Paul "copy"...
ang pagkaintindi ko sa "copy" is same shape but different brand..
ang pagkaintindi ko sa "fake" same lahat pati brand and serial etc..
so pwede na pala magbenta ng mga ganyan dito sa philmusic?
28k pa ang asking
napag-isip lang :)
Next time bro "report to mod" mo na lang. Baka di pa lang nila nakita yan. I'm sure hindi pa din pwede magbenta ng fakes.
Wohah! Ang dami nang ups tapos may unlocked remark pa ni IncX :-o
lol
ninja si TS eh ... nagsimula sa FT: CIJ 72 Reissue Strat (Ash body)
tapos nag kagebunshin jutsu into a Gibson copy with matching decal. and yes, bawal pa rin ang copies and "redecaled" stuff
ang pagkaintindi ko sa "copy" is same shape but different brand..
ang pagkaintindi ko sa "fake" same lahat pati brand and serial etc..