Advise for a Noob about Recording

[siore]

dahil kung maganda sa headphones, hindi siya maganda sa lahat. dahil hindi FLAT ang sound ng headphones. may mga frequencies sa headphones na nakaBOOST, kaya hindi mo pwedeng pagkatiwalaan pagdating sa mixing. lalo na kapag EQ na ang usapan. siguro kung panning, masarap sa headphones kasi makikita mo kaagad ang result.

Well, the same can be said about speakers.  Not all speakers are flat in frequencies.

ang mga studio monitors, FLAT ang sound. so, pwede mo siyang pagkatiwalaan sa pag-adjust ng EQ, which, i believe, is the most important part of mixing. para pagdating sa mga listeners ng trabaho mo, pwede nilang i-boost yung bass. o i-adjust yung EQ sa kahit anong gusto nila.

If you mix using headphones, the listener could still adjust EQ to his liking, right?  Also, there are also some monitor headphones, right?  I think by this point, manufacturers can make them FLAT sounding as well. 

chka bro, hindi mo pwedeng pagsilbihan ang mga naka-headphones lang.
paano naman tong mga to:

*mga nagsa-soundtrip sa koche.
*mga band na magsusubmit ng DEMO para sa isang contest, hindi naman headphones ang gamit ng panels eh.
*ung mga tao sa BAR, kung sakaling patugtugin yung trabaho mo ng sound-tech sa malalaking speakers(minsan nangyayari yun)
*mga magsusubmit ng demo sa radio station, In the Raw for example, madali silang mag-grant ng air play.
*mga nakikinig sa maliliit na computer speakers.
*mga nakikinig sa earphones (earphones ba ang tawag doon sa swak sa tenga?)
*sa mga audiophile na magaganda ang "soundtrip system"
*mga highschool/college students na gagamitin ang song para sa video presentation nila. usually pangit mga speakers sa school eh. (ewan ko sainyo UST ako eh. sabog ung speaker sa podium eh!)

etc.

All these things can have the EQ to their liking, right?  Especially the systems for big venues?  Yeah, maybe it's a bit of a hassle to have to EQ it further (and maybe some frequencies lost there), but what if it sounds good on speakers and yet just bland in detail?  And see, if it doesn't come through that nice on speakers, people can just say, "pangit mga speakers e."  But if they listen through their headphones and they don't like what they hear, it's. "what the hell??"

plus hindi lahat ng nakaheadphones ay may magagandang headphones. chka hindi lahat ng headphones ay magkakatunog, kung ano ang tunog sa headphones mo, iba yan sa ibang headphones. dahil malaki ang range ng quality ng mga headphones eh. makikita mo kaagad yan sa prices. merong 250, may 1000. may 2000.

ayun. magandang araw. 

Again, same can be said with speakers.  They're not all the same.  I'm still not convinced.  Example, what if you're an indie band?  You're using information technology (eg. the internet) to spread your music around.  Most listeners who would hear your music (if distributed this way) would probably use their headphones, right?    And even if they do listen through a speaker setup, they'd probably find the EQ to match it.  Would you insist on mixing through your monitors, when the band intends it to be heard and appreciated in detail through headphones?

[siore]

Sir KitC, you mentioned acoustics and controlling unpleasant modes in the mix room.  Would home recording guys be better off with headphones?

I see a lot of them in these bare concrete rooms, with no bass traps or acoustic enhancements whatsoever, and yet they spend loads on their monitors!  This guy I worked with last time, insisted on using his monitors, and in the end I felt he did our band a disservice.  Because when we listened to his work back home, it was all a muddied mess and some tracks were not even in sync with the time (delayed).

I think you need to spend a lot more on your room acoustics, first and foremost.  If you can't, why insist on your monitors?

[abyssinianson]

Sir KitC, you mentioned acoustics and controlling unpleasant modes in the mix room.  Would home recording guys be better off with headphones?

I see a lot of them in these bare concrete rooms, with no bass traps or acoustic enhancements whatsoever, and yet they spend loads on their monitors!  This guy I worked with last time, insisted on using his monitors, and in the end I felt he did our band a disservice.  Because when we listened to his work back home, it was all a muddied mess and some tracks were not even in sync with the time (delayed).

I think you need to spend a lot more on your room acoustics, first and foremost.  If you can't, why insist on your monitors?

yikes.

[KitC]

yikes.

Apparently, siore got burned with that experience causing him to distrust monitors.

@siore - It seems to me that the guy who did your last recording didn't know his monitoring environment quite well. For one thing, one must always "tune" his ears to his own monitors. That's why I said the operative word is 'trust'. Most engineers often have a reference cd on hand in the same genre they are mixing; this gives them an idea on what to listen to. Judging from the boomy sound you say that resulted, I could almost certainly say that the engineer had no point of reference with his monitor system.

Secondly, one should always reference a mix across different systems. I myself would audition a mix through headphones, monitors, computer speakers, a boom box, car stereo... even my x-mini speaker. If I find that a mix translates well across those systems, that's when I feel I can write off on that mix.

It's true that the distribution media of choice is mp3 and most ipod and mp3 players don't have hifi specs. It's also true that your mix should play back well in those systems. But you cannot release a mix that is good for only one system. You need a mix that is good for all, regardless of the playback mechanism. Chances are that if you have a full bandwidth mix that plays well in hifi systems, it will translate well to mp3, but not the other way around - that's just the nature of the mp3 beast.

[mikep]

Basically, what soire is missing here is the objective of the recording process.  You see, the reason you record is for you to capture the actual performance as heard through an acoustic space.  Monitor speakers provide that; headphones do not.  When you (as you said) turn your head to the left when you listen to a band performing live, does the band turn itself with your head? 

The reason why good monitor speakers are flat or as uncolored as they can be is so that you can fix the mix correctly to sound good - without added coloration or influences.  Headphones, even the monitor ones, cannot provide the frequency response needed as they have certain deficiencies in frequency characteristics.  Furthermore, the proximity of the headphone speakers to your ears do not provide the necessary ambience and acoustic space needed in "real life listening."  That is also the reason why control rooms of professional studios are suppose to have acoustics that are as neutral and uncolored as they can be, so that the mix done in these rooms can resolve well in any playback system (which the studio you used lacked).  I am not saying you cannot mix with headphones, however, it takes getting used to it and trusting the headphones you are using.  I've seen some good engineers mix with headphones, but they also always reference their work to good near fields and far field speakers.  Here in the studio, we go beyond that.  We also mix using a boombox - an FM transmitter sends the signal to the boombox or a car radio.  As I have mentioned, if your mix sounds good in all these reference systems, including your iPod's headphones, it will resolve well to any playback system and will sound punchy, loud and will stand out from the rest of the mixes.

FWIW

[moogerfooger]

Sirs,

I always wanted to record my composition for the longest time. Ngayon lang talaga ako nag ka chance/ o nagkapera para magawa ko to. Since my quest is to create a demo CD being minimalist is the option. Tapos yung genre ko po is alternative/pop and I think don't have to go to uber pro instruments or yung mga high end products due to Php constraints. I'm sure everyone will agree.

What I have as of now:
1. red washburn guitar (x-series)
2. takamine (d-series)
3. behringer USB Interface
4. pentium 3 800 MHz (Windows XP)
    512 MB / 20 GB HD
5. 5mx5m room with A/C na maingay


Eto po ang aking mga tanong:
1. ano po yung magandang mic na pwede sa room recording for voice and el.guitar and ac.guitar? (i was looking at Behringer mics like C1 or B1)
2. whats the best guitar amp for a budget na below 20K, again for recording?
3. sa guitar effects which is better yung chain na effects o yung mga zoom or pod effects processor? advantage or disadvantage din po sa mga setup na ganito
4. software that's easy to use 
5. CD writer na external like with USB interface
6. do i need a drum machine? i need more info abt what i can do with this...
7. piano / keyboard vs. synth - which one is better? I found out in Yamaha Megamall that CP1 is priced the same as MM6 ba yun at around 37K

Yung mga songs ko po ay love songs na me pagka pop-ish and emo-alternative. in some of my songs kasi po i shout esp yung mga high-notes. in terms of voice quality naman i would need more thickness. 5'4 lang kasi ako tsaka light (patpatin) pa yung built ng katawan so I would need something that can make my voice a bit "buo" in terms of recording. Please include nalang din po yung Php counterpart ng advice nyo.

Thank you for all your help.


Note: 3650 thanks for the reminder

sa SPECS ng PC:

512 lng ang RAM mo ser, dagdag ka at least 1gig. sabagay, dati 256 lng ram ng PC ko and kaya nya SONAR XL.

for a limited budget, try mo C1 or B1 and kung mejo may natira pa, bili k ng RODE NT1 for vocals at ac.gtr recordings mo.

softwares..uhmm mejo limited kasi ser ang resources ng PC mo. dko lang sure kung kaya nyan ang SONAR 3 ng cakewalk.

drum machines- dehins na kelangan ser meron tyo SONAR session drummer.

again, try BEHRINGER UMX USB midi controller keyboard ( below 11k)  compared sa 37K na nakita mo.

yung "BUO" voice na sinasabi mo ser actually BODY yung hanap mo. meron tyo plug-ins/ EQs para sa added Bottom na gusto mo.

[LouieAzcona]

Again, same can be said with speakers.  They're not all the same.  I'm still not convinced.  Example, what if you're an indie band?  You're using information technology (eg. the internet) to spread your music around.  Most listeners who would hear your music (if distributed this way) would probably use their headphones, right?    And even if they do listen through a speaker setup, they'd probably find the EQ to match it.  Would you insist on mixing through your monitors, when the band intends it to be heard and appreciated in detail through headphones?

based on experience. parehas na behringer ang headphones at monitor speakers ko. simple lang ang reason ko kung bakit tiwala ako sa monitor speakers: kasi kapag sa monitor, for sure, maganda sa headphones. pero kapag nagrely ako sa headphones, kulang pagdating sa speakers.

except kung sabi nga ni sir mike, sobrang sanay ka na sa headphones mo. pero usually kasi diba ma-bass ang headphones. kapag doon ka nagmix, hindi mo alam,  wala na palang bass pagdating sa speakers. specially sa maliliit na computer speakers.

point ko lang, mag-play safe ka. aling market ba ang gusto mo i-cater, lahat ng taong may potential na maka-apreciate ng music mo, o mga headphone users lang?

[G5]

Mga sirs,

Thank you, thank you very much po talaga sa mga inputs nyo. I really appreciate it kahit na minsan parang nagdidebate na pero maganda pa rin yung end-result kasi nga it will help noobs like us to be clear on important aspects of this recording process.

[siore]

Apparently, siore got burned with that experience causing him to distrust monitors.

@siore - It seems to me that the guy who did your last recording didn't know his monitoring environment quite well. For one thing, one must always "tune" his ears to his own monitors. That's why I said the operative word is 'trust'. Most engineers often have a reference cd on hand in the same genre they are mixing; this gives them an idea on what to listen to. Judging from the boomy sound you say that resulted, I could almost certainly say that the engineer had no point of reference with his monitor system.

Secondly, one should always reference a mix across different systems. I myself would audition a mix through headphones, monitors, computer speakers, a boom box, car stereo... even my x-mini speaker. If I find that a mix translates well across those systems, that's when I feel I can write off on that mix.

It's true that the distribution media of choice is mp3 and most ipod and mp3 players don't have hifi specs. It's also true that your mix should play back well in those systems. But you cannot release a mix that is good for only one system. You need a mix that is good for all, regardless of the playback mechanism. Chances are that if you have a full bandwidth mix that plays well in hifi systems, it will translate well to mp3, but not the other way around - that's just the nature of the mp3 beast.

Burned?  More like incinerated!   

With mp3's, we get to distribute faster.  But I totally understand that it wouldn't automatically sound good on hifi systems.

Hey guys, I'm not saying I distrust monitors completely.  I'm saying I don't like it when someone goes blindly with monitors, and our music only sounds good on them.  Thanks sir for clearing it up, not just for me but for everyone building their own studios.

Trust your monitors.  Reference a mix across different systems.  Got it.   

Basically, what siore is missing here is the objective of the recording process.  You see, the reason you record is for you to capture the actual performance as heard through an acoustic space.  Monitor speakers provide that; headphones do not.  When you (as you said) turn your head to the left when you listen to a band performing live, does the band turn itself with your head? 

Great point on the objective!  Thanks sir mikep, I've been looking for someone to point that out.  I'll be sure to keep that in mind.   

point ko lang, mag-play safe ka. aling market ba ang gusto mo i-cater, lahat ng taong may potential na maka-apreciate ng music mo, o mga headphone users lang?

The majority should.

Well, I just sparked this up, coz we've been in situations like these for a countless numbers of times.  Ever heard of, "ako, ayoko mag-headphones, mas ok talaga yung XXXX monitors ko... dahil... (insert BS here)... "

Or, "ayoko mag-mix nang full volume, mas fine-tuned tenga ko pag mahina yung sawndz..."   

Chalk it up to experience, I guess..

[G5]

Question po:

How do you know, like in a room setting, if you need to fix something in the room with respect to recording voice and ac.guitar using only say yung USB Mic na sinaggest nung previous reply?

[G5]

Sirs:

I bought a Samson USB mic and so far I'm loving it. One problems that encounter is this kasi what I want to do is to play the ac. part muna then add my voice tapos yung ac part is accompaniment ko na. The problem is on the latency part na pag kumanta ka  na hindi-real time yung sounds na lumalabas sa monitor. So kung kumakanta ka hindi ka makaself-correct while singing. Is there any work around with this?

Thanks po.

[KitC]

@G5 - What soundcard? What drivers are you using? What is your computer specs? Believe me, all these have a bearing on your computer's audio efficiency. Realtek onboard audio can be good, but they usually suffer when it comes to latency performance. Another problem is the way usb devices handle monitoring; shortest latency times are achieved by monitoring through the usb device itself and guess what? Most usb mics don't have audio output (sE Electronics and Blue have usb mics with audio output).

What this means for the majority of usb mics is that in order to monitor their output, you will have to rely on another soundcard. Remember that there is latency on the inputs AND outputs so this means that your total latency is the sum of the USB mic's latency PLUS the soundcard. That's why some usb mics are now appearing with audio outputs; some even have an analog out so you can route audio to an external mixer for realtime hardware monitoring.

Another factor is also software monitoring. If you monitor through your DAW software, you have to factor in the total latency of your system. You can get lower latency times with powerful cpus and higher sampling rates, but very fast cpus can be costly. This is one of the reasons why I recommend a very good soundcard with hardware monitoring capability.

[G5]

Sir KitC,

Thanks po sa reply. I get the idea about your explanation on the sum of latency that we get kung USB ang gagamitin and the cost that comes with trying to overcome it. Hindi lang pala dahil sa USB yung gamit mo na device; pati pala yung software na gamit me at yung overall na specs ng hardware me latency factor din. Nice. Thanks po.