hulika

Author Topic: Dissecting HIYAW... the science, the psycho-acoustic nature, and the fallacies  (Read 44770 times)

Offline firemodel55

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how about those people who doesn't prefer that? do all people want that double note? how about that slight chorus?

(People who hear and EXPERIENCE it, prefer it.  It beats having to always use the following: overdrive, compression, distortion, delay, chorus, reverb, phasing.  And overall, the guitar is just more expressive.  The difference is like playing a real electric guitar made of wood versus the old Casio plastic and rubber synth guitar.)

how about if theres someone who doesnt prefer it and buys a guitar without those characteristics, does it mean his guitar sucks?

(Yes.  Relatively, his non-hiyaw guitar SUCKS versus a guitar with MOJO and HIYAW.  But it might suck less compared to other cheaper guitars like those made in santa mesa or those being sold in RJ without HIYAW. Depends really.)

Offline Tasty

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So, hiyaw is something so rare that even if you manage to get a guitar with it, you will be unable to record it or let your audience hear it without super expensive amazingly high-end non-Asian boutique amps?

Now, say I won the lottery and managed to get my hands on a magical guitar with hiyaw and an equally magical amp to capture it for live playing. Will my audience--who, for the purposes of discussion, has untrained ears--hear anything special at all?

Because I sure as hell can't hear any significant differences between high-end guitars and my cheap S Series Ibanez.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2011, 10:32:14 AM by Tasty »
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Offline firemodel55

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So, hiyaw is something so rare that even if you manage to get a guitar with it, you will be unable to record it or let your audience hear it without super expensive amazingly high-end non-Asian boutique amps?

(Its rare.  It can be heard by the audience with above average amps.  But it really shines on AMAZINGLY HIGH END NON ASIAN BOUTIQUE AMPS.)

Now, say I won the lottery and managed to get my hands on a magical guitar with hiyaw and an equally magical amp to capture it for live playing. Will my audience--who, for the purposes of discussion, has untrained ears--hear anything special at all?

(The audience will hear it better than guitarists who are biased for their guitars that don't have HIYAW.  Surprisingly quite a number of the audience hear better than guitarists.)

Because I sure as hell can't hear any significant differences between high-end guitars and my cheap S Series Ibanez.

(Yeah... The S series really sucks.  My first electric guitar was an Ibanez S back in 1989 and until now the 2011 models still suck.  Therefore, I AM AS SURE AS HELL that either: a) you have still NOT heard HIYAW -- even some of the so called high end guitars don't have it -- or b) you are deaf.  No offense, I prefer to think of its as the former because its really hard to find guitars with HIYAW.  But is the difference and effort worth it?  Yup... definitely.)

Offline rye715

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Uhmm...before I comment on this, can anyone of you guys post a video or a soundclip which demonstrates (or should demonstrate) this concept called "hiyaw"? Just include the section of that particular piece (i.e. around 0:56-1:05 is where the "hiyaw" comes through).


Thanks!
"Musicians are, in a sense, able to manipulate energy in the form of sound. We are able to understand the nature of sound and mold it to our liking. Among other kinds of professions, we are the ones who can wield energy in one of its purest forms."

Offline spetsnaz1123

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I've seen a video before demonstrating hiyaw with the baker guitar, it's still in youtube I think  :-D
'one never fails until he quits trying'


Offline pitongjerome

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Uhmm...before I comment on this, can anyone of you guys post a video or a soundclip which demonstrates (or should demonstrate) this concept called "hiyaw"? Just include the section of that particular piece (i.e. around 0:56-1:05 is where the "hiyaw" comes through).


Thanks!

I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

challengeofthegobots

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What was that Bamboo song that particular hiyaw guitar was used on? Was that recording able to utilize the hiyaw? Can we hear the hiyaw on in there? I wonder what Ira's opinion of the hiyaw guitar was, and why after trying the guitar has he not set forth on a hiyaw guitar quest?

Offline Letour

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Here is the lawyer in me:

Brace yourself, this is a LONG post.

If you have an idea of  'hiyaw', probably you have seen firemodel's early ramblings in this forum.

(NOTE:  This thread is meant to focus on HIYAW, and its role in our quest for the ultimate guitar.  The science and the myths need to be unveiled.  NO FIGHTING, PLEASE!)

 

Because I sure as hell can't hear any significant differences between high-end guitars and my cheap S Series Ibanez.


(Yeah... The S series really sucks.  My first electric guitar was an Ibanez S back in 1989 and until now the 2011 models still suck.  Therefore, I AM AS SURE AS HELL that either: a) you have still NOT heard HIYAW -- even some of the so called high end guitars don't have it -- or b) you are deaf. No offense, I prefer to think of its as the former because its really hard to find guitars with HIYAW.  But is the difference and effort worth it?  Yup... definitely.)

Didn’t our HIYAW expert just disobeyed the no fighting rule by throwing nasty punches?

I don't know, but where I am from they are almost fighting words to me
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challengeofthegobots

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found it! here you go....
a legit recording of the hiyaw guitar


do you think it captured the guitar's mojo?

Offline deltaslim

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At this point, I hope everybody takes a big grain of salt with what Alex said in those last few posts so as to avoid fighting.  May I share this moderator ruling on TDPRI forum (which I already posted on the "Survival Guide to Guitar Central" thread):

"A note to remind some posters in this thread that all you know is your opinion on this subject. And, if you want to quote other builders and such as proof then I'll say that all they have is their opinions, too. This is a subjective subject and there are not absolutes. Your opinion on the subject is not a FACT.

So, state YOUR opinions but don't try to belittle others for having a differing opinion. OK?"
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 09:33:55 AM by deltaslim »

Offline firemodel55

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At this point, I hope everybody takes a big grain of salt with what Alex said in those last few posts so as to avoid fighting.  May I share this moderator ruling on TDPRI forum (which I already posted on the "Survival Guide to Guitar Central" thread):

"A note to remind some posters in this thread that all you know is your opinion on this subject. And, if you want to quote other builders and such as proof then I'll say that all they have is their opinions, too. This is a subjective subject and there are not absolutes. Your opinion on the subject is not a FACT.

So, state YOUR opinions but don't try to belittle others for having a differing opinion. OK?"


Some opinions are BETTER than others... That's why there are EXPERTS in the world right?  Such as consultants, creative agencies, litigation lawyers, masterchefs, tax avoidance lawyers, profilers, etc.

challengeofthegobots

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I wonder what the experts' opinion/s on the sound of the guitar on this video....


Offline pitongjerome

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found it! here you go....
a legit recording of the hiyaw guitar


do you think it captured the guitar's mojo?
fm55, was the hiyaw captured here?
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline guitarman8294

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6:49-6:52

anu tawag dun?  :?

Offline deltaslim

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Some opinions are BETTER than others... That's why there are EXPERTS in the world right?  Such as consultants, creative agencies, litigation lawyers, masterchefs, tax avoidance lawyers, profilers, etc.

Yes, some opinions are better than others, especially if they are based on factual reality and not driven by hidden, selfish agendas. The best opinions are more logical and less emotional, and therefore more persuasive.

But when it comes to opinions, tolerance is an important virtue too: it means accepting that other people have a right to their opinion and express it, and that even though we may disagree with their opinions, that we can tolerate their world view, leave them in peace and allow ourselves to live in peace, with the understanding that we are all just honestly working towards what is true and just.

Offline bryanarzaga

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Some opinions are BETTER than others... That's why there are EXPERTS in the world right?  Such as consultants, creative agencies, litigation lawyers, masterchefs, tax avoidance lawyers, profilers, etc.

lol..especially profilers..

challengeofthegobots

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fm55, was the hiyaw captured here?

its quite a nice tone, regardless....

but a simple yes or no will do. If its "yes" then we would now have a solid example of this hiyaw in his head. or if its somewhat captured a little then we now have a little picture of what the hiyaw in his head is and from there find out what it properties it didnt capture. if its totally not captured by this recording, then my useless opinion about this hiyaw will remain that hiyaw is plain and simple BS....

its the tone in his head we're trying to understand, he calls it hiyaw, and claims 95% of the world's guitars dont have it. Maybe it really is just in his head.

the overtones and double tones that were given as examples have not been acknowledged as what hiyaw really is... fm55 has yet to say "yes joric, that's the one I've been trying to say all along"

that swirly effect that sounds (pardon me) absolutely ridiculous is yet to be heard by everyone trying to explain what this hiyaw is. Apparently skunky has heard it and says it simply can't be captured, I don't know why though. I know if you can hear it, it can be captured. If it vibrates the air then a microphone (probably an expensive one) can capture it.

The only way we will be able to settle what this hiyaw really is, is for FM55 to put a finger on something we can all share. A clip, a recording, any reference at all. May not even be that particular guitar, just any one of the remaining 5%. Then we would know what he is really talking about and then all dissing of this and that can be justified or nullified. A step toward enlightenment and peace.

What all these strong arguments have been doing for years is make us run around in circles.

Offline farseer

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To add... do we have to do string bends to demonstrate... or a simple pluck will do???
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 02:58:28 PM by farseer »

Offline pitongjerome

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i think hiyaw can be captured.. even the bat's supersonic "talk" can be captured.. oh, even the japan's earthquake sound was captured..

ano pa kaya ang gitara > amp.. which is just within the normal hearing frequency..
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

challengeofthegobots

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well apparently, according to skunky, hindi daw e.

hiyaw>bat gossip and nature's fury

Offline xaero

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Wag na mag-abala. Kung sakaling marinig mo man yan eh masisiraan ka naman ng ulo.

Offline stringman

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Some opinions are BETTER than others... That's why there are EXPERTS in the world right?  Such as consultants, creative agencies, litigation lawyers, masterchefs, tax avoidance lawyers, profilers, etc.

Do you consider yourself an expert on tone and guitars?
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones.

Offline psychic_sushi

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Anton, with much respect, its not kanya kanyang preference.  "Hiyaw" is the one EASIEST measure (however unmeasurable but noticeable to the human ear and brain)  to determine whether an electric guitar has mojo.  Now a guitar with MOJO has all the other desirable traits that makes a SPECIFIC electric guitar superior to ALL others.  And in my experience which is very broad, it is present in ALL electric guitars with MOJO.  It is quite obvious that you have not encountered an electric guitar with MOJO and HIYAW which is OK because it is really very hard to find such guitars.  Remember that HIYAW and MOJO need to be experienced first before it can be discussed and further discussion even after experiencing can be as imperfect.    

Alex, with all due respect, I've taken a couple of my own guitars in the past to Arie when i used to avail of his services. He confirmed the "hiyaw" presence in them. In a clinic of mine I demonstrated an Elegee custom that had that quality. And during the mega pedal shoot-out that i volunteered myself as a demo-boy, alot of the participants noticed that my Greco Strat had that factor too. Additionally, Joey Puyat and i have had discussions about it, his white strat's got the mojo too.

I wouldn't be dipping my finger in this topic if i "didn't know sh%T" about what I was talking about or "playing". I'm just sayin'...

You're making us look like idiots man  :-D take it easy...
« Last Edit: May 30, 2011, 07:40:18 PM by psychic_sushi »
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Offline spetsnaz1123

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Mojo (African American culture), a magical charm bag used in voodoo, sometimes called a mojo hand <<< from wikipedia

Mojo originated as a term with a specific meaning, but in the late 20th century became a very fluid term with many different meanings. It originated as a reference to a type of magic charm. The word traces its origins to Africa and entered English in the late 19th century or early 20th century through use by African-Americans. It reflects the belief, common in many cultures, that some people have the ability to influence others to their own advantage, by casting spells or hexes.
In African-American folk beliefs, especially in the rural U.S. South early in the 20th century, a mojo was a small bag worn by a person under the clothes (also known as a mojo hand). Such bags were thought to have supernatural powers, such as protecting from evil, bringing good luck, etc. The mojo bag usually contained a mix of herbs, powders, sometimes a coin, and other objects thought to promote supernatural action or protection.

Other names for mojos, or specific types of mojos, include conjure bag, toby, and nation sack.

References to mojos are common in early & mid 20th century rural blues songs. Some of these were blues tunes covered by white rock & roll bands in the 1960s. The tunes thus reached audiences unfamiliar with the rural African-American folk beliefs referred to in the lyrics of the songs. The exposure to uninformed audiences led to misunderstanding and additional uses of the word. One example of many is the 1999 film Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me which apparently used mojo to mean libido. Some other slang meanings of mojo in common use include: charm, charisma, karma, cocaine and thing (as in "Gimme that mojo!").
Source(s):
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Offline randymarsh

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I've probably heard HIYAW twice in my entire life. The first time I probably heard it was during a Zappa Plays Zappa concert.  Steve Vai and Dweezil having a guitar duel on stage. Steve with his beloved Evo and the usual Carvin Legacy stack vs Dweezil's SG through a Cornford. I'd say Evo sounded thin and lack luster compare to Dweezil's SG. I may say that the SG had the HIYAW factor.

The second time I probably heard it was on a Primus concert. Les Claypool’s famous Carl Thompson 6 sting bass sounded dull and life less compared to his latest Dan Maloney 4 string bass. Same great bass player, same rig but sounded like day and night with different basses. The Dan Maloney bass sounded more pleasing and probably had the HIYAW factor.

I would really like to hear FM55's baker guitar in person. I don't want to play it, just hear it side by side a gold top Les Paul or any high end guitar (on the same rig) played by a better guitar player forumite. I don't want a recording of it. A recording wont do justice kahit Royer R-121 + SM57 on a 12inch tape ang gamitin niyan . I want to hear the Baker breath on a closed cab 4x12.  
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