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Author Topic: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?  (Read 9333 times)

Offline Deacon Blues

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Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« on: May 22, 2006, 11:18:44 PM »
Should you be knowledgeable in jazz theory for you to appreciate it? or for you to appreciate it better?

Hypothetical case:

Let's say you have Listener A, who's a Berklee grad, trained in the jazz pedagogy, has perfect pitch, can transcribe ANY solo at whim, can name the chords of any song immediately after first hearing, can play the solo to 'Giant Steps' BACKWARDS(!) on guitar, piano and bass;

... and then you have Listener B, who has virtually NO musical knowledge at all; doesn't play any instrument, but is a devout jazz lover;

Now, when both say, "Yeah, I love jazz!," who do you think UNDERSTANDS it better? Listener A or B?

In't it enough for Listener B to explain his passion for the music when he says, "Well, I dunno ... it just hits me in the gut, I guess .."
"No static at all ..."

Offline psychic_sushi

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Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2006, 10:10:21 AM »
Hmmm... tough question Deacon!

But to appreciate jazz, my answer is NO. To appreciate it BETTER, my answer is: music theory alone is not enough.

A measure of an artists musical triumph is how an audience can relate to his output. The artist also chooses the crowd to attract, and allows his art to be subjected to their interpretation. Jazz, as with all music, chooses its means to convey emotions and to draw peoples emotions through its form. If an ordinary listener is moved by coltranes adventures, or kenny g's (sorry folks for using these two names in one sentence!)  trips, then, the artist has succeeded. I've had a few friends (like the guys i introduced to you at the fete last year) who are great jazz fans. followers of davis, coltrane, monk, dexter gordon, etc, because they can relate to its emotional value. I did an experiment last night, as i was on the phone with my girlfriend, i snuck coltrane's "soultrane" album as backround music. my girlfriend isn't a musician, and her popular music tastes are very mainstream but not involved. I asked her- "how does this music make you feel? Can you describe how you find it?" she replied "Its old jazz, right? I've never listenend to this stuff before, but i find it very soothing, the whole atmosphere can affect you." Coltrane triumphs, over the BASIC emotional form. That perhaps, was Coltranes goal during that moment of creation.

Now, to appreciate it better is a whole different story. If you are a musician wanting to unravel the mystery of jazz, yes, theory will make you appreciate the artistic devices utilized in the art. But to appreciate it better, theory is not enough. The hardest question to ask is not HOW did he do it, but WHY. From "why", the theory becomes just another factor in the equation. History (the point of the music's creation) has to be looked at, be it the artists personal history or the social (dare I say, political) mood at that time. We cannot ignore this aspect, because doing so would be downplaying jazz's emotional significance. My non-musician friends have as leg-up over me, because they are so well versed in jazz's history and understood the struggles of the time, that the musical devices i knew made me feel quite... inadequate. Learning more (yet i know so little) of its roots and transitions helps you capture the moment much better, and gives theoretical devices a more solid ground for its utilization and existence, for the musician.

Musicians should better ears because we are expected to be conversant, even eloquent in our chosen artistic expression. it is mandatory for us to appreciate things better, but only to put these things to use for the audiences benefit.
"The world needs more great guitarists, not more lumber critics."

Ron Kirn

Offline boyet

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Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2006, 11:28:41 AM »
Music in general affects the emotions and is based on the emotion. It is not necessary to analyze the theoretical side of it to be able to appreciate. If you are a musician then the intellectual part of appreciation can be a factor. Parang sa ibang fields din yan ng art like for example sa architecture kelangan ba na alam mo rin yung mga nakasulat sa blue prints para maapreciate mo yung isang structure na nabuo from that piece of paper?  :wink:
If it is art it is not for all. If it is for all it is not art. -SchoenbergQuestion: How do you make a million dollars playing jazz?Answer: Start with two million

Offline deltaslim

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Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2006, 02:39:28 PM »
... what he (psychic_sushi) said!

Offline haringulan

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2006, 03:38:50 PM »
Quote from: Deacon Blues
Should you be knowledgeable in jazz theory for you to appreciate it? or for you to appreciate it better?


Now, when both say, "Yeah, I love jazz!," who do you think UNDERSTANDS it better? Listener A or B?

In't it enough for Listener B to explain his passion for the music when he says, "Well, I dunno ... it just hits me in the gut, I guess .."


its hard to top off what psychic_sushi said but here's my two centavos:

you hear what you listen to, or in this case, understand...

i think listener A who knows theory understands it using his/her head.
listern B on the other hands understands using the heart.

they both understand in different degrees using different faculties, but i dont think either one can claim that they APPRECIATE it more than the other.


Offline deltaslim

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2006, 04:09:15 PM »
Quote from: haringulan
Quote from: Deacon Blues
Should you be knowledgeable in jazz theory for you to appreciate it? or for you to appreciate it better?


Now, when both say, "Yeah, I love jazz!," who do you think UNDERSTANDS it better? Listener A or B?

In't it enough for Listener B to explain his passion for the music when he says, "Well, I dunno ... it just hits me in the gut, I guess .."


its hard to top off what psychic_sushi said but here's my two centavos:

you hear what you listen to, or in this case, understand...

i think listener A who knows theory understands it using his/her head.
listern B on the other hands understands using the heart.

they both understand in different degrees using different faculties, but i dont think either one can claim that they APPRECIATE it more than the other.


tama rin!  agree ako dyan.  i'm type B...  tumutupi ang toes ko sa broken chords ni bud powell at monk!  :-)

Offline rodney vidanes

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Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2006, 09:47:27 PM »
i get what psychic_sushi said...

u dont have to analyze jazz to appreciate it..you just have to hear it many times..when you are at the point of analyzing jazz,that means you already appreciate it..and that you are at the stage of exploring its wide spectrum and become one of the jazz enthusiasts.
John 3:16

Offline soulmusic

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Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2006, 02:42:07 AM »
Quote from: boyet
Music in general affects the emotions and is based on the emotion. It is not necessary to analyze the theoretical side of it to be able to appreciate. If you are a musician then the intellectual part of appreciation can be a factor. Parang sa ibang fields din yan ng art like for example sa architecture kelangan ba na alam mo rin yung mga nakasulat sa blue prints para maapreciate mo yung isang structure na nabuo from that piece of paper?  :wink:


high five tayo dito! agree ako!
life is music... soul... music... life...

Offline cofibreyk

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Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2006, 05:34:09 AM »
hmm..i see!  :shock:  sarap nman ng gising ko!  :twisted:
this thread just made my day!

Offline pallas

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Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2006, 10:11:02 AM »
dont know anything bout jazz but been lisnin to incredible jazz guitar by wes and i just love it and playin it to death and driving my staff crazy :lol:
O Rose, Thou art sick! The invisible worm that flies in the night, In the howling storm, Has found out thy bed of crimson joy: and his dark secret love, Does thy life destroy.   

William Blake, The Sick Rose

Offline psychic_sushi

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Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2006, 10:16:42 AM »
Quote from: pallas
dont know anything bout jazz but been lisnin to incredible jazz guitar by wes and i just love it and playin it to death and driving my staff crazy :lol:


hahahaha! if i were a staff member i'd be a happy clam ;) did the same thing last year at an office i worked at, but using Holdsworth's "All Night Wrong" album. When i saw the stressful faces, i decided to shut it off...
"The world needs more great guitarists, not more lumber critics."

Ron Kirn

william251082

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2007, 04:26:01 AM »
NO! u should just have an open mind/ears and a good dose of imagination, tv kills imagination, so as everything that gives u too clear informations. if it's too obvious it's not art. if only many people could have this much sensitivity and imagination, jazz will be d pop music right now.

'imagination is more important than knowledge' - albert einstein
« Last Edit: July 10, 2007, 02:30:43 PM by william251082 »


Offline vegetablejoe

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2007, 11:47:30 AM »
I'm more of Type C - not a jazz lover, but if it moves me (yung nakapikit na ako and parang autistic yung galaw ko), then I'm appreciating it.  :-D  :lol:

Offline aya_yuson

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2007, 12:20:09 PM »
we dance around the circle and suppose
the secret sits in the middle and knows
<3 Love is the absence of fear. Fear none. Love all. <3

william251082

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2007, 03:42:07 PM »
this is sooo beautiful... life is good
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Offline jazhombie

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2007, 04:33:46 PM »
NO! u should just have an open mind/ears and a good dose of imagination, tv kills imagination, so as everything that gives u too clear informations. if it's too obvious it's not art. if only many people could have this much sensitivity and imagination, jazz will be d pop music right now.

'imagination is more important than knowledge' - albert einstein
nice quote william.. :-D

Offline markthevirtuoso

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2007, 05:51:35 AM »
I also think that one way to appreciate jazz even more is to grasp an understanding of its history. When i was reading Donald Grout's A History of Western Music I was amazed to find the correlation (musically or otherwise) of jazz to the other genres that preceded and came along with it and to the aesthetic, social, cultural and political perspectives that have influenced the upbringing of jazz itself all along.

Maybe some mileage will help you further appreciate it too.

And of course not to forget, the transcendence of the musical output being delivered to us. The appreciation of sublime music needs no further investigation. The artform will surely speak for itself!

 :-)
Fidelity means a horrible noise sounds like a horrible noise.

Offline brianb

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2007, 01:03:10 PM »
Maybe some mileage will help you further appreciate it too.

You callin' me OLD, boy?  :x








 :-D

Offline foom

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2007, 01:24:54 AM »
feel the vibe and i'm sure you'll appreciate it...
end is near. learn to swim.

william251082

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2007, 04:24:29 AM »
NO! u should just have an open mind/ears and a good dose of imagination, tv kills imagination, so as everything that gives u too clear informations. if it's too obvious it's not art. if only many people could have this much sensitivity and imagination, jazz will be d pop music right now.

'imagination is more important than knowledge' - albert einstein
nice quote william.. :-D
always works s mga european chicks pre hehehe;-)

Offline Jim Ayson

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2007, 08:22:45 AM »
Overanalysis will be the death of the jazz and remains the main stumbling block to wider acceptance. Just go with the flow!
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Offline nhojie

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2007, 01:02:15 AM »
very nice thread! :-)
\\\\\\\"watch a man play for an hour and u can learn more about him than in talking to him for a year\\\\\\\"-PLATO

Offline jazhombie

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2007, 02:00:45 AM »
Overanalysis will be the death of the jazz and remains the main stumbling block to wider acceptance. Just go with the flow!

+1000-- u don't have to be that deep in jazz, just to be hip... :-D--go wd d flow ... :-D

Offline gisan925

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Re: Do you have to analyze jazz to appreciate it?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2007, 07:08:43 AM »
You just have to like the music! That is enough for me!

Should you be knowledgeable in jazz theory for you to appreciate it? or for you to appreciate it better?

Hypothetical case:

Let's say you have Listener A, who's a Berklee grad, trained in the jazz pedagogy, has perfect pitch, can transcribe ANY solo at whim, can name the chords of any song immediately after first hearing, can play the solo to 'Giant Steps' BACKWARDS(!) on guitar, piano and bass;

... and then you have Listener B, who has virtually NO musical knowledge at all; doesn't play any instrument, but is a devout jazz lover;

Now, when both say, "Yeah, I love jazz!," who do you think UNDERSTANDS it better? Listener A or B?

In't it enough for Listener B to explain his passion for the music when he says, "Well, I dunno ... it just hits me in the gut, I guess .."
« Last Edit: July 15, 2007, 07:11:56 AM by gisan925 »