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Author Topic: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread  (Read 245487 times)

Offline botbenz

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #200 on: November 18, 2008, 12:02:34 AM »
A 4" cement slab would have been better.  Also, I have problems with sand as when it settles down, sometimes it does not level properly that your slab flooring can be misaligned. 
I surmised as much, which is why I had the mason form stilts, using deformed bars. So my floor looks like a spider, with the stilts tip-toed against the old concrete floor beneath the compacted earth.

So my floor look will look like:
[Engineered wood]
[Underlay]
[Concrete slab floor, with deformed bar and "stilts"]
[Sand bed]
[Compacted earth/soil]
[Old concrete floor, which is probably 12"-15" beneath the room floor]

Since I haven't built the room within the room yet, maybe I should consult a pest expert to treat the floor (or at least the perimeter) and then air it out for a while. Darn, I should've gone for the floor joists on neoprene U-boats instead.

Anyway, I'd like to seek your professional (with pay, if wifey, who used to be one of your UP Masscom students, does not sneer at the price) advice on room treatment. Sometime early next year.

Just the same, thanks for guiding us newbies in this forum. Maraming salamat po.

Offline mikep

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #201 on: November 18, 2008, 01:16:32 AM »
I surmised as much, which is why I had the mason form stilts, using deformed bars. So my floor looks like a spider, with the stilts tip-toed against the old concrete floor beneath the compacted earth.

Normally, you would put metal bars to harden and support the cement slab.  Putting sort of stilts might result to a short circuit with the existing compacted earth as the sand and soil settle down a few inches.  It is really better to use real honest to goodness neoprene or spring isolators.  Anyway, ...

FWIW
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Offline lovecore

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #202 on: November 18, 2008, 05:18:45 AM »
I love this thread! quite timely since I'm doing a complete renovation. I'll be sure to post some Q's I just wanna go over the past pages so I won't have to ask the same questions  :-D Mabuhay si sir Mike Pedero

Offline botbenz

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #203 on: November 18, 2008, 09:10:19 AM »
Normally, you would put metal bars to harden and support the cement slab.  Putting sort of stilts might result to a short circuit with the existing compacted earth as the sand and soil settle down a few inches.  It is really better to use real honest to goodness neoprene or spring isolators. 
Oh, yes, I forgot to mention that the deformed bars were primarily there to harden and support the cement slab. But I guess I'll take the tiny short circuit trade-off over a floor tilt!  :| Anyway, my goal is a quiet SOHO, not a commercial-grade studio. I'll go to a pro studio for anything more serious than a demo CD!

Just the same, thanks for the advice. Your experience trounces all our collective newbie hacks!  :-D

Offline mikep

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #204 on: November 18, 2008, 06:25:03 PM »
Glad to help.  Blessings to all.
www.facebook.com/TRACKSAcoustics/Studios
guitars: gretsch 6122-1962; rickenbacker 330; epi elite casinos; gibson les paul standards, tribute, faded, double cut; gibson sg standards, faded; fender strats MIAs, MIJs, MIMs; fender tele MIAs, MIJs, MIMs; etc


Offline botbenz

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #205 on: November 21, 2008, 12:43:32 AM »
just wanted to share a few things i learned since my last post a few days ago.

a 2"x3"x10' metal (g.i. by jeasteel) stud costs p200. a treated (armorwood, which is supposed to keep anay and bukbok away) wood stud of the same size costs p440. so, at least, stud-wise, metal is more cost-effective. but, of course, their structural framing requirements may be different, well, since metal and wood have different tensile and compression characteristics.

i also learned that "pound for pound", fiber cement boards, like hardiflex, are more cost-effective; that is, they cost less per kg/m3. and they take up less space. a 4.5mm hardiflex sheet (4'x8') weighs slightly more than a 9.5mm gypsum board. the primary advantage of gypsum is that they are ready to paint over. fiber cement boards have a much rougher finish. i plan to use a combination: fiber cement board and a gypsum board, with green glue in between.

sir mikep, since you convincingly (no brainer) swayed me into metal framing, question: do you recommend using horizontal blocking between studs? on one hand, rigidity should minimize vibration/resonance (the less the studs sway/flex, the less the panels will oscillate, right?). on the other hand, won't the blocking effectively "short-circuit" the two studs? i am inclined to employ staggered (not a contiguous horizontal member) blocking, unless you think that that's unnecessary. again, thanks!
 

Offline mikep

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #206 on: November 22, 2008, 02:23:06 AM »
but, of course, their structural framing requirements may be different, well, since metal and wood have different tensile and compression characteristics.

i also learned that "pound for pound", fiber cement boards, like hardiflex, are more cost-effective; that is, they cost less per kg/m3. and they take up less space. a 4.5mm hardiflex sheet (4'x8') weighs slightly more than a 9.5mm gypsum board.

sir mikep, since you convincingly (no brainer) swayed me into metal framing, question: do you recommend using horizontal blocking between studs? on one hand, rigidity should minimize vibration/resonance (the less the studs sway/flex, the less the panels will oscillate, right?). on the other hand, won't the blocking effectively "short-circuit" the two studs? i am inclined to employ staggered (not a contiguous horizontal member) blocking, unless you think that that's unnecessary. again, thanks!
 

To answer your questions - walls made of metal studs perform better acoustically compared to those made of wood studs.

Combination of Hardiflex (brand) and gypsum board (normally, better if gypsum -Hardiflex-gypsum on metal studs) provides better acoustic impedance as the two materials have differing acoustical properties.  The transfer of soundwaves is hindered better with this type of arrangement.

"Horizontal blocking" would definitely short circuit your walls.  As the metal studs have enough rigidity, you do not need a "blocking" device.  Just make sure you use 16" o. c. so that the wall is solid.  You do not need horizontal members if you do your studding this way.  But if you would want to add more rigidity, a horizontal member of about 60" from your base plate will do better wall performance.  If you want to have connection between your double stud wall for better support, you have to have sway braces which must be acoustically decoupled - meaning some sort of a break using neoprene isolators is necessary.  The net would have models of these.

FWIW
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 02:28:15 AM by mikep »
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Offline j3yps

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #207 on: November 26, 2008, 08:48:14 PM »
Mga sir, saan po ba nakakabili nang duvet dito satin? mahal ba?

Offline peeves24

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #208 on: December 08, 2008, 06:52:32 PM »
stupid idea alert!

nainspire lang ako dun sa bolt-on office cubicle walls kaya naisip ko na baka pwedeng gumawa din ng bolt-on studio.

example, pwede tayo gumawa ng 6'x2' panels with 4"x2" framing tapos lagyan ng 2 layers ng gypsum yung one side (eto yung outside wall). lagyan ng 2" insulation between the studs of the frame. lagyan ng fabric cover yung exposed part ng insulation. finally, lagyan ng wood planks para maging helmholtz resonator yung wall. yung bawat side nung frames, merong lag bolts para makabit sila side by side.

for the floating floor, same framing style pero lalagyan ng 2 layers ng 3/4" plywood instead of gypsum yung 1 side para maging floor na. yung underside naman ng frame, lalagyan ng 2" insulation ulit in between studs tapos neoprene pads. dito sa floor maglalagay ng bolts na pagkakapitan nung walls.

yung ceiling, ipapatong lang naman yung 6x2 panel ulit sa walls then bolt on na.
madali lang maglagay ng ports para may provision sa airconditiong via flexible ducts para walang flanking path.

after mo i-assemble yung panels, lagyan ng caulk to seal the joins



- mas less yung kakaining space kesa mag double wall ka plus may acoustic treatment pa = laking tipid sa materyales
- hindi ka gagastos ng isang bagsak kasi bibili ka ng materials on a per-panel basis
- its not permanently installed, ideal sa mga nagrerent lang ng space
- you can even do away with the aircon ducts, as you can open the door to the booth to let air in = tipid ulit. kaya lang kailangan ilagay mo sya sa room na may existing aircon, kahit pa ordinary wall unit lang yung AC

wachuthink mga master? nasa tamang pagiisip pa ba ko?
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 06:55:07 PM by peeves24 »

Offline botbenz

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #209 on: December 08, 2008, 10:36:33 PM »
@peeves!

pwede naman talaga yung minumungkahi mo eh. ano ba yung mga isolation booths na nabibili? di na rin nalalayo yun sa ipinaliwanag mo.

caveat: i'm sure you are aware of it, but not all are; that there is a proper way to build a helmholz resonator, partly depending on the frequencies you are trying to treat.

also, the applicability of your design partly depends on room size. builders of larger rooms would probably opt for a mix of absorbers and diffusers. you only prescribed the former, so it's not a one-size-fits-all solution.

but, of course, you and i don't have half the experience of the masters. so they ultimately have the final say!

Offline lovecore

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #210 on: December 08, 2008, 11:23:29 PM »
@peeves!

pwede naman talaga yung minumungkahi mo eh. ano ba yung mga isolation booths na nabibili? di na rin nalalayo yun sa ipinaliwanag mo.

caveat: i'm sure you are aware of it, but not all are; that there is a proper way to build a helmholz resonator, partly depending on the frequencies you are trying to treat.

also, the applicability of your design partly depends on room size. builders of larger rooms would probably opt for a mix of absorbers and diffusers. you only prescribed the former, so it's not a one-size-fits-all solution.

but, of course, you and i don't have half the experience of the masters. so they ultimately have the final say!

I'm also curious as to what the masters here have to say on peeves suggestion. Very interesting...

Peeves, magkano kaya abutin yung mga ganyan roughly?

Offline mikep

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #211 on: December 09, 2008, 12:46:15 AM »
The bolt technique is do-able, but the design of your isolation wall has to be that it has to have enough STC to stop whatever noise is to be blocked going in or out.  A wall stud with one or two gypsum panels are not enough for sound isolation purposes.  You need a thick wall with enough air space, isolated studs from one another, and good filling of absorptive materials inside the wall.  Also, the acoustic treatment would depend on the RT60 you are trying to achieve for your room.  It is not only Helmholtz resonators and absorbers that you have to provide.  You have to compute for the correct LF energy to arrest as well as the desired RT60 and the corresponding RT60 curve from 125 hz. to 4 khz.  Your biggest problem will be, how to make the whole structure stand and stay erect and sturdy.  That is why we use acoustical hangers from the ceiling, wall isolation supports or anti-sway pads on walls and floor neoprene pucks for isolating the floor.  At the same time, you need to keep the joints tightly sealed not only through caulking but by inter-locking techniques.  I have designs of movable rooms that I have done to be provided for some TV networks, but instead of being able to save, the cost is almost the same and sometimes is even more expensive compared to conventional studio construction methods.  Unless you can come up with an efficient and low cost design that really works, then you make it.

FWIW
www.facebook.com/TRACKSAcoustics/Studios
guitars: gretsch 6122-1962; rickenbacker 330; epi elite casinos; gibson les paul standards, tribute, faded, double cut; gibson sg standards, faded; fender strats MIAs, MIJs, MIMs; fender tele MIAs, MIJs, MIMs; etc

Offline peeves24

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #212 on: December 09, 2008, 10:47:46 AM »
@peeves!

pwede naman talaga yung minumungkahi mo eh. ano ba yung mga isolation booths na nabibili? di na rin nalalayo yun sa ipinaliwanag mo.

caveat: i'm sure you are aware of it, but not all are; that there is a proper way to build a helmholz resonator, partly depending on the frequencies you are trying to treat.

also, the applicability of your design partly depends on room size. builders of larger rooms would probably opt for a mix of absorbers and diffusers. you only prescribed the former, so it's not a one-size-fits-all solution.

but, of course, you and i don't have half the experience of the masters. so they ultimately have the final say!

yep the booth is supposed to be built inside my existing room so in effect, i'll also be having a room within a room setup but purely for drum and guitar tracking. primary concern will be to keep outside noise out of the mics. i get to keep my existing wall aircon unit and renovation to my existing room will be kept to a minimum (add door seals, replace existing plywood ceiling with hat channels + gypsum)

since masyadong maliit yung booth (7' high, 5'7" wide, 6' 11' long), i can only do so much with acoustic treatments and may even completely do nothing about it. hahabulin ko na lang sa mixing.

i think im being carried away by my research and too much reading. the prospect of building a pro level studio is way out of my budget, at least not in 5 years time, after im done paying my mortgage.


The bolt technique is do-able, but the design of your isolation wall has to be that it has to have enough STC to stop whatever noise is to be blocked going in or out.  A wall stud with one or two gypsum panels are not enough for sound isolation purposes.  You need a thick wall with enough air space, isolated studs from one another, and good filling of absorptive materials inside the wall.  Also, the acoustic treatment would depend on the RT60 you are trying to achieve for your room.  It is not only Helmholtz resonators and absorbers that you have to provide.  You have to compute for the correct LF energy to arrest as well as the desired RT60 and the corresponding RT60 curve from 125 hz. to 4 khz.  Your biggest problem will be, how to make the whole structure stand and stay erect and sturdy.  That is why we use acoustical hangers from the ceiling, wall isolation supports or anti-sway pads on walls and floor neoprene pucks for isolating the floor.  At the same time, you need to keep the joints tightly sealed not only through caulking but by inter-locking techniques.  I have designs of movable rooms that I have done to be provided for some TV networks, but instead of being able to save, the cost is almost the same and sometimes is even more expensive compared to conventional studio construction methods.  Unless you can come up with an efficient and low cost design that really works, then you make it.

FWIW

thanks sir mike! yes, there will be interlocking sections with rubber seals.

im still considering other options but this scheme seems to be the perfect compromise for my budget and my needs (at the moment). the problem is, i dont know what i want 2 years from now. i was thinking of spending 20k for this project, if i can use it for 5 years then i can say that its worth it but if i outgrow my needs in less than that time then im in trouble, again.


Offline botbenz

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #213 on: December 10, 2008, 02:50:36 PM »
@peeves: you have the highest research-to-budget ratio. :) most people would've sloppily built their room. sa 'yo, naka sketch-up pa. galing!

if you don't know what you'll want two years from now, good for you. most will want to upgrade after six months. what if you're not satisfied with how your room sounds? upgrade in two weeks! :P

suggest you work on the outer room of your room-within-a-room first; soundproof that, and see (well, hear) how much noise gets in and out first. before i built/soundproofed my outer room, i measured the ambient noise. when tricycles passed by (most commercial studios don't have to deal with this residential pollution), the vroom outside the room measured 70db--so i had that to contend with.

i just completed my outer room, and the little noise (my nokia phone with SPL meter can only measure down to 30db) that comes in seems to only come in through the hollow steel door! so i plan to Green Glue+screw a layer of 3/4" plywood (maybe even MDF) on the steel door to increase the door's STL, in addition to rubber gaskets/sealants. in other words, i'm working on the weak link(s) of my outer room first, so my inner room design will be more effective, and need not be over designed.

still, you and i have to deal with two primary challenges: soundproofing, and room treatment, budget notwithstanding. most people only care about not annoying the neighbors. but if you're tracking, you can only do so much in the mix.

just the same, keep your ideas coming. i especially like your sketch-ups! great fodder for sir mike's best practices. am learning a ton! now if only i can use that mass. ;)

Offline peeves24

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #214 on: December 11, 2008, 04:23:42 PM »
ok, i got paid for some sideline projects so im going to be a little more ambitious

im scraping my previous ideas to fully maximize my space. hindi ko na hahatiin pa yung isang kakarampot na room para maging 2 smaller rooms.



obviously i'll need:

- double doors for the tracking room
- redo my existing ceiling including the adjacent room (master's bedroom slash pseudo control room)
- add a new isolated ceiling in the tracking room
- i WONT add a glass window between my tracking room and control room


i know for sure i cant afford a split type aircon at the moment kaya lalagyan ko na lang ng provision para sa send/receive ducts. there must be one big window (or two small windows) on the western side of the tracking room for fresh air. dual purpose kasi yung room, regular bedroom pa rin sya kung hindi ako magdrudrums. isasara ko lang yung windows kapag gusto ko magtrack.


but just for the interest of saving my budget for other things, doable kaya to?



less materials needed and isolation wont be as good pero at least hindi liliit yung tracking room.



nadiscuss na kung san makakabili ng gypsum, rockwool/fiberglass insulation, pati steel framing pero wala nagbabangit tungkol sa labor. can you guys refer people who do steel framing and drywall installation? tipong laborer, i cant afford the extra overhead of hiring a pro company unless of course they are affordable enough *hint hint* pag naghire ng contractor hindi na DIY so OT na ko  :-D

gusto ko na simulan sa first week ng january, i probably have more than enough budget to finish framing, put up 2 layers of dry wall and rework the ceiling and electrical wiring (estimate ko lang ha, sana may makausap na ko na gagawa hehehe). yung ibang items like acquiring solid core doors, lighting, room treatments, pati yung pagpaint ng rooms can wait.

Offline botbenz

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #215 on: December 12, 2008, 07:19:01 PM »
good for you, peeves! the bigger room should serve you longer.

offhand, my concerns/questions are:

1) why do you need to redo the ceiling of the adjacent room?

2) i, too, considered air intake/outtake ducts. but i thought, "what if the intake cannot cool the room enough"? considering that 80% of my room's use will be casual, leisurely, non-tracking use, i thought it best to be able to cool the room. what would you do if your ducts cannot sufficiently cool the room?

if i were in your shoes, i'd probably buy a small window-type aircon, install it where you plan to have windows, then enclose the window/aircon in a small, shallow, sealable closet. so when the room is cooled, and it's time to track, i can turn-off the a/c, put a thick blanket over the a/c to effectively muffle noise coming from the a/c duct, then shut the closet tight. it's a little unorthodox, but that's what we budget-constrained DIYers do. :D of course, it's just an idea. the masters get the last hack. ;)

metal framing-wise, i am doing mine myself. bought a snipper (scissors) and a riveter. i bought the materials--studs, tracks, carrying channels, rivets, etc.--but will probably get someone else to do the ceiling. i could help you, but i am quite expensive, especially for someone without experience! :D


Offline peeves24

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #216 on: December 13, 2008, 07:46:45 PM »
inalis ko na yung old ja-lousy  :-) windows. im doing the wood frames tomorrow.

im redoing the ceiling to reduce flanking paths. besides, i really do need to replace the current ceiling due to lack of insulation. pasok na pasok yung init sa tanghali e.

ah the intake/outtake ducts i mentioned is for the split type AC that i will install later.

i'd do the work myself kung walang tatangap, so far naubos ko na yung mga nakita kong contractors sa yellow pages at wala pang ni-isa na pumayag magcommit.

speaking of paying other people to do something, it's been a week already and i think i visited more than 30 small time furniture/woodwork shops and nobody wants to build me my simple mixing/computer desk. frustrating, so i just decided to buy a circular saw and get my hands dirty again...more work, even less time   :cry:

Offline botbenz

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #217 on: December 14, 2008, 06:35:06 AM »
we're in the same shoes, peeves!  :-D i bought a circular saw (atbp!) to build my own desk. you can buy circular saw blades for plywood locally. what i haven't found yet (four ace hardware stores, a couple of handyman's, two home depots, two wilcons, one federal hardware) are blades for MDF boards. so i might order "MDF blade(s)" from the US, or go with one to two layers of 3/4" plywood.

i downloaded a sketchup model of an argosy desk from google's 3d warehouse, which i may tweak, or i might mash-up various design elements i have seen. am curious to see a sketchup of your desk design.

do you have plans to convert your master's into a control room too? because if i were on a tight budget, i'd use your master's as an "electrical room"; that is, for keeping noisy devices--computer, storage drives, etc. then, i'd monitor/mix in your tracking room, which has already been acoustically treated. that way, you don't have to acoustically treat your master's bedroom; not immediately, anyway. in other words, a tracking/control room, but not simultaneously, and without splitting the room, like your original design. anyway, my two cents, which may save you more. ;)

i can refer you to my contractor, but i can't guarantee that you'll come to an agreement. ;)

Offline peeves24

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #218 on: December 15, 2008, 08:58:08 AM »
blades, dont order yet. visit tomas mapua st. in sta. cruz (starting from recto). there are many big hardware stores who stock hard to find items e.g. router bits, nuts and bolts, rack ears, blades for almost anything.

pm sent

Offline botbenz

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #219 on: December 15, 2008, 09:56:51 PM »
thanks for the hardware store tip, peeves. i haven't been back to old manila since my teen geek days of buying electronic kits and parts from raon! i will scour tomas mapua soon (for sway braces, neoprene pads, ceiling suspension, rack ears, saw blades, carbide router bits--the works! ;)), before i order any more stuff abroad. thanks!

i have contacted my contractor, who has agreed to talk to you. i'll pm you his contact info.

Offline alien_inside

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #220 on: December 23, 2008, 10:06:30 PM »
Any mineral wool dealer here in Philippines? kahit china-made para mas mura...
ALLEN VC PASCUA, Keyboardist, Arranger, Audio Engineer0947 233 2263 (Int'l Roaming) InterContinental Hotels Group

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Offline alien_inside

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #221 on: December 24, 2008, 04:37:18 AM »
question:

I'm planning to add three plyboards ( 3/4" ) ( 2'x6' each and a 2'x4' para sa gitna ) at the backwall, spaced 1 inch from the real wall. pwede ba ito to serve as bass traps? what are the possible freqs?

nahingi ko lang yung mga yun sa munisipyo... stage designs kaya may abstract paintings...

thanks...
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 04:44:01 AM by alien_inside »
ALLEN VC PASCUA, Keyboardist, Arranger, Audio Engineer0947 233 2263 (Int'l Roaming) InterContinental Hotels Group

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Offline peeves24

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #222 on: December 24, 2008, 01:39:56 PM »
safe ba to?



i will put 16kg rockwool or glass fiber as insulation above the existing ceiling frame. the ceiling frame is made from 2x2 wood. then i'll put resilient channels before i mount 2 layers of 1/2" gypsum

what's the ideal distance between resilient channels? 24" centers ba for ceilings? im going to use RC2 but i dont know where to get them. jeasteel is only offering regular hat channels. i havent checked wilcon yet

Offline botbenz

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #223 on: December 26, 2008, 11:14:32 PM »
Any mineral wool dealer here in Philippines? kahit china-made para mas mura...
there are several kinds of mineral fiber, the most popular are fiberglass and rockwool.

a friend of mine claimed to have found a rockwool supplier on sulit.com.ph, so you can try your luck there.

i, on the other hand, googled it and found the local distributor of http://www.csr-in-asia.com/, which is http://www.eco-web.com/register/00043.html.

hope this helps.

Offline botbenz

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Re: DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread
« Reply #224 on: December 26, 2008, 11:17:53 PM »
question:

I'm planning to add three plyboards ( 3/4" ) ( 2'x6' each and a 2'x4' para sa gitna ) at the backwall, spaced 1 inch from the real wall. pwede ba ito to serve as bass traps? what are the possible freqs?
bass traps are generally made of absorptive materials, such as mineral fibers, NOT reflective materials like the plyboards you got.