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Author Topic: True Acoustic Tone  (Read 1170918 times)

Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #850 on: June 12, 2008, 05:19:30 PM »
what are the characteristics of rosewood in terms of tonal quality?

how about sapele?  i'm not too familiar with this type of wood.  :-)
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Offline GGBR

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #851 on: June 13, 2008, 12:33:49 AM »
what are the characteristics of rosewood in terms of tonal quality?
how about sapele?  i'm not too familiar with this type of wood.  :-)

Maxi, here's something from my compilations of tonewood info....

re: Rosewoods (genus DALBERGIA) -Brazilian, Cocobolo, Honduran, Madagascar, Bolivian (Pau Ferro), Panama, Amazon, Bubinga, Camatillo, and a most recently introduced South East Asian Rosewood (Dalbergia Bariensis)....almost forgot the most availble - East Indian.

Dalbergia is reported to be a large genus, consisting of about 300 species of trees,

Remember the term - "Q factor" for tonewoods...Brazilian is reputed to have the highest "Q". I have been told by US luthiers that Cocobolo has an even higher 'Q' than Brazilian....here....

1) ROSEWOOD (genus Dalbergia)

Rosewoods are more consistent from sample to sample than spruces and cedars and one piece is much more like another in behavior, if not appearance. Of the rosewoods used in guitarmaking, Brazilian rosewood has traditionally been the best wood of choice. This is partly due to tradition and partly due to its phenomenal "Q", which makes it a very acoustically active material. When struck, a properly cut sample rings like a plate of glass. This quality contributes to sustain and projection in a guitar, because those are the chief functions of the back. Sustain, because it rings a long time; and projection, because the back’s movement can be coupled in vibrating activity to the movements of the face, boosting the directional power of the activity of the guitar. Because of its high "Q", Brazilian rosewood is both vitreous and brittle, and therefore prone to cracking and checking. East Indian rosewood, the alternate wood of choice, is comparable to Brazilian rosewood but simply not as beautiful nor as "live", by a factor of some 10% to 20%. This is not a huge difference, and there are plenty of excellent sounding East Indian rosewood guitars around. Also, East Indian rosewood is an attractive choice because it is much less prone to cracking and therefore generally less problematic to work with. Other rosewood-like woods which have a high "Q" are wenge and padauk (both of which crack very easily) and certain Asian and Central American rosewoods, which do not have the beauty of Brazilian or East Indian. While I haven’t worked with all these woods I’d expect them all to be brittle in direct proportion to their liveness and be prone to the same mechanical failures. Removing their brittleness would in fact remove the factor that is responsible for their characteristic tone.

2) MAHOGANY AND KOA (Sapele is a Mahogany which I believe comes from South American, while Koa is in the Acacia family, the Philippine Acacia could be what they call Black Acacia, check with our Forestry Bureau)

Mahoganies and koas are very variable in physical properties. That is, whereas one piece of rosewood is much like another in this regard, these woods range from light to dense, and stiff to loose, while all looking the same. Accordingly, they will behave differently as tonewoods as they exhibit different degrees of "Q" and a guitar’s sound will be colored by the specific selection of koa or mahogany used. The denser and more brittle the wood, the more it will ring; the lighter and looser the wood is, the more it will be an acoustically passive part of the guitar. Heavy koa, mahogany and walnut are all comparable in their tone. Everything else being equal, it is generally recognized that mahogany and koa will produce a "warmer" sound in a guitar than the more brittle rosewoods can.

Offline GGBR

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #852 on: June 13, 2008, 12:46:14 AM »
what are the characteristics of rosewood in terms of tonal quality?

how about sapele?  i'm not too familiar with this type of wood.  :-)

The previous post was on the physical/acoustic properties.

Here is a take from Dana Bourgeios (he is a highly reputed luthier) on tonal characteristics of body tonewoods....

Back and Sides

Besides serving to form the enclosure of the soundbox, the back and sides of the guitar also act as a sympathetic resonator whose oscillations contribute greatly to the harmonic mix. When judiciously selected (with due consideration given to design criteria and the other tonewoods used in the instrument), the back and sides can have a tremendous effect on the overall tone of the instrument.

Brazilian and Indian rosewood have an extremely high velocity of sound and a broad range of overtones. The rosewoods, as well as their various rain forest cousins-cocobolo, kingwood, morado, and the like-have strongly pronounced low overtones, usually the lowest resonating frequencies in the entire guitar. These lows help to create a complex bottom end and to impart an overall darkness of tone to the instrument. Strong mids and highs serve to reinforce overtones generated by the top, contributing to a fatness of tone on the upper registers. Guitars made of rosewood also have a pronounced "reverby" tone, caused by a strong, clear set of sympathetic harmonics with a delayed onset and slow decay.

Mahogany and koa have relatively high velocities of sound when considered as materials for backs and sides and thus contribute much to overtone coloration. Lacking the low-end frequencies of the rosewoods and also their sustaining reverberation, these woods have an altogether different sound. Where rosewood guitars can be thought of as having a "metallic" sound, mahogany and koa guitars are better described as sounding "woody, although the harder, more dense examples of these woods can take on some of the characteristics of the rosewoods. Between the two, koa seems to have a little more fullness in the midrange, while mahogany tends to favor the bass (to some extent) and the treble.

Maple and walnut tend to be more acoustically transparent than other tonewoods, due to a low velocity of sound and a high degree of internal damping. That is to say that they allow tonal characteristics of the top to be heard without the addition of extraneous coloration and may even serve to attenuate some of the overtones emanating from the top.

The harder, denser examples of these woods, such as sugar maple and black walnut- particularly quartersawn examples-tend to lean slightly more toward the tonal direction of mahogany, while softer examples, such as bigleaf maple and claro walnut, tend toward greater tonal transparency. Curly, quilted, or bird’s-eye figures do not seem to have much effect on the tone of the wood, but they can be used, like bearclaw, as an indicator of other properties. Quilted figure, for example, occurs most often in softer species and is best displayed when the wood is flat sawn-two characteristics that tend to produce higher damping properties

Offline GGBR

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #853 on: June 13, 2008, 12:51:29 AM »
All that being said.....

Mahogany, Koa, Sapele, Myrtle, Claro Walnut et al are good for strumming and accompanying vocalists.

Rosewoods are good for solos with much fingerpicking.

Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #854 on: June 13, 2008, 06:53:48 AM »
learned so much from that!  thanks sir GGBR!

i asked because i was looking at Larrivee's website yesterday.  their OM-03 has sapele and rosewood versions for back and sides, and i was wondering as to their differences.

based on that post, i think i want rosewood better.   :-)

kamusta na kaya mga Larrivee ni Doc Dave?  baka may pakakawalan na siya.  :-D
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Offline GGBR

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #855 on: June 13, 2008, 12:22:30 PM »
learned so much from that!  thanks sir GGBR!

i asked because i was looking at Larrivee's website yesterday.  their OM-03 has sapele and rosewood versions for back and sides, and i was wondering as to their differences.

based on that post, i think i want rosewood better.   :-)

kamusta na kaya mga Larrivee ni Doc Dave?  baka may pakakawalan na siya.  :-D

I will give you the cell no of someone selling OM-05 (if I remember correctly), Mahogany with Sitka top Larrivee. He was giving it to me at  very good price. I do not know if he still has it as that was then last qtr of 07 . I know that a new one will go for $1k which is on the low-mid pricing.

Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #856 on: June 13, 2008, 09:54:12 PM »
I will give you the cell no of someone selling OM-05 (if I remember correctly), Mahogany with Sitka top Larrivee. He was giving it to me at  very good price. I do not know if he still has it as that was then last qtr of 07 . I know that a new one will go for $1k which is on the low-mid pricing.

yes i know him.  i think he's selling an OM-03 with bearclaw spruce.  that was almost the same time when i was also offered the Gibson i'm using now.   :-D
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Offline dayuhan

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #857 on: June 17, 2008, 05:49:37 PM »
When I saw "True Acoustic Tone", I figured I had to put this in, because this guitar comes pretty close to defining it for me. 









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Offline farseer

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #858 on: June 17, 2008, 08:45:50 PM »
wow a guild f50r... nice  :-)

Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #859 on: June 17, 2008, 08:50:44 PM »
wow a guild f50r... nice  :-)

kamusta Doc?  may bago ka bang acoustic?  :-D

btw, nakay Mang Bert yung Chet Atkins ko.  bumigay yung electronics eh.  may papalitan lang na mga parts.  ok naman ang trabaho ni Mang Bert diba?
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Offline farseer

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #860 on: June 17, 2008, 08:54:24 PM »
ayos naman si bert... pag di niya kaya kay mang raul mo pagawa...

wala bagong acoustic, puro vintage electrics mga nabibili ko ngayon....

Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #861 on: June 17, 2008, 08:56:17 PM »
ayos naman si bert... pag di niya kaya kay mang raul mo pagawa...

wala bagong acoustic, puro vintage electrics mga nabibili ko ngayon....

nakikita ko nga sa gear pics thread eh.  :-D

san ba si mang raul?
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Offline dayuhan

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #862 on: June 17, 2008, 09:29:47 PM »
wow a guild f50r... nice  :-)

Korek!

Now I'm having fantasies about an F512, guess there's never enough
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Offline strummer

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #863 on: June 17, 2008, 09:45:28 PM »
When I saw "True Acoustic Tone", I figured I had to put this in, because this guitar comes pretty close to defining it for me. 

Not like I deserve it or anything, but sometimes we get lucky...

...and lucky you are! welcome to philmusic.  :-D
strum away!

Offline dayuhan

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #864 on: June 17, 2008, 10:23:57 PM »
...and lucky you are! welcome to philmusic.  :-D

Thanks...

Looks like acoustic types are outnumbered here by a pretty heavy margin.  I have a Charvel/Marshall combo I pull out when I want to make noise, but I live in Sagada and end up playing in front of my fireplace most nights, and for that the acoustic rules.
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Offline deltaslim

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #865 on: June 18, 2008, 07:33:08 AM »
Korek!

Now I'm having fantasies about an F512, guess there's never enough

nice guitar, dayuhan!  i wouldn't mind having an F512 either.  have you tried the one in RJ?


farseer - have you tried the "ancient stock" F512 sa RJ Makati?  it seems uninspiring to me. but perhaps old strings or poor setup (non-maintenance) is the problem.  also, IMO, the fact that it isn't being played as it should be will surely affect the wood and overall repsonsiveness of the guitar. 


EDIT: actually, i'm not sure if the Guild 12 string in RJ Makati is an F512 model.  whatever!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 07:34:52 AM by deltaslim »

Offline dayuhan

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #866 on: June 18, 2008, 07:51:01 AM »
nice guitar, dayuhan!  i wouldn't mind having an F512 either.  have you tried the one in RJ?


farseer - have you tried the "ancient stock" F512 sa RJ Makati?  it seems uninspiring to me. but perhaps old strings or poor setup (non-maintenance) is the problem.  also, IMO, the fact that it isn't being played as it should be will surely affect the wood and overall repsonsiveness of the guitar. 


EDIT: actually, i'm not sure if the Guild 12 string in RJ Makati is an F512 model.  whatever!

I haven't tried it; first time I've heard of it.  I don't get to Makati much; will have a look next time I descend.  Is it a second hand guitar or a new one that's just been sitting on the shelf forever?  I hesitate to even ask... but what price are they asking for it?

If it's a Guild rosewood Jumbo-bodied 12, it would be an F512.  Maple body would be an F412, mahogany F212.  If it's a D-size, different of course...

Lousy strings will make any guitar sound bad... can't figure out why so many shops display decent instruments strung with crap.  I mean, it doesn't take an abacus to figure that it's gonna be easier to sell guitars that sound good.  Pretty rare to find a high end Guild 12 that doesn't sound good, but not impossible, even the best companies toss out a lemon now and then.

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Offline dantuts

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #867 on: June 18, 2008, 10:15:30 AM »
welcome dayuhan..!!

another acoustic guy to add up to our growing number..  :-)
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Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #868 on: June 18, 2008, 01:40:57 PM »
welcome dayuhan!  i just gotta ask...is that you in the picture?  :-D

great guitar bro!  are you planning to have a pickup+preamp system installed in that?

anyway, the Guild in RJ is pre-owned by RJ himself.  and it's been sitting there since forever.  i haven't even bothered to try it out because i might get thoroughly disappointed.  i don't know why RJ will sell that guitar as seconds.

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Offline borgy

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #869 on: June 18, 2008, 02:18:59 PM »
When I saw "True Acoustic Tone", I figured I had to put this in, because this guitar comes pretty close to defining it for me. 









Not like I deserve it or anything, but sometimes we get lucky...

Here's one nice guitar.. Thanks for posting.
Gibson ES-335 dot Historic, 1978  Fender Sunburst Strat. Suhr Classic T. McNeill OM guitar, Yamaha APX7,Fender Ultralight, Brown Note 18w, Purkhiser Amp, Firebelly Deluxe Reverb,  Mad Professor Little Green Wonder, AYA Drivesta,

Offline dayuhan

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #870 on: June 18, 2008, 06:46:46 PM »
welcome dayuhan!  i just gotta ask...is that you in the picture?  :-D

great guitar bro!  are you planning to have a pickup+preamp system installed in that?

anyway, the Guild in RJ is pre-owned by RJ himself.  and it's been sitting there since forever.  i haven't even bothered to try it out because i might get thoroughly disappointed.  i don't know why RJ will sell that guitar as seconds.

Yup, that's me...

Earlier this year a friend from the US was coming over and I asked him to bring a K&K pickup and an LR Baggs PADI unit... but he canceled the trip and I don't know if I'll even bother.  I play it by the fireplace or on the back porch, mostly, not really places where you care about plugging in... and Sagada is for me a place where you just want a plain natural acoustic.  Maybe if I lived in the city...

I wonder what the story is on RJ's Guild 12... if I'm in Makati I will stop by and have a look; if I'm disappointed, well at least I'll know.
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Offline deltaslim

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #871 on: June 22, 2008, 11:49:22 AM »
anyway, the Guild in RJ is pre-owned by RJ himself.  and it's been sitting there since forever.  i haven't even bothered to try it out because i might get thoroughly disappointed.  i don't know why RJ will sell that guitar as seconds.

well, i did try it out and was thoroughly disappointed but i'm no 12-string expert and my point of reference is different (ie, ladder braced, OO-shaped Stella 12s).  and i wouldn't look to RJ for tone, at least 'today's RJ'.  maybe in his younger days.

they also have a Dobro there that was just dead. my MIC dobro I bought in Singapore was 10x better for tone.  but then again, in Singapore, practically all the stores I go to in Singapore maintain ALL their guitars with new strings tuned up!  no wonder nobody has bought the Dobro and Guild in RJ Makati.


Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #872 on: June 22, 2008, 03:43:59 PM »
i take back what i said in my above post...the Guild in RJ Makati isn't the one i saw labeled as "pre-owned by RJ".  that Guild was the one in RJ MOA, which is not a Jumbo but an OM (i'm not too sure about this, but definitely not a Jumbo).

sir joric, is the Guild 12 in tune?  i've tried a few 12s in Tom Lee and when they're not in tune, i didn't bother playing them.  but i love to fingerpick using 12s.  it's fun to have more than one note ringing.  :-)
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Offline deltaslim

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #873 on: June 22, 2008, 04:31:04 PM »
i take back what i said in my above post...the Guild in RJ Makati isn't the one i saw labeled as "pre-owned by RJ".  that Guild was the one in RJ MOA, which is not a Jumbo but an OM (i'm not too sure about this, but definitely not a Jumbo).

sir joric, is the Guild 12 in tune?  i've tried a few 12s in Tom Lee and when they're not in tune, i didn't bother playing them.  but i love to fingerpick using 12s.  it's fun to have more than one note ringing.  :-)

The Guild wasn't in tune. I tried to tune it but with dead strings, what's the point?   

There's no sound like that of a 12-string booming single note riffs in perfect tune.   8-)

Offline dayuhan

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #874 on: June 23, 2008, 10:22:56 AM »
The Guild wasn't in tune. I tried to tune it but with dead strings, what's the point?   

There's no sound like that of a 12-string booming single note riffs in perfect tune.   8-)

I still want to try it, just to see what model it is and try to figure out what's wrong with it.  Not like I'm a 12 string expert (or an expert at all) but the few Guild jumbo 12s I've played have had absolutely enormous sound.  Tried an F212XL in a shop years ago, pretty basic guitar, kind of plain.  They had a much fancier Taylor 12 as well, the Taylor looked nicer and felt great in the hands but when it came to sound it just vanished compared to the Guild.  Wanted one ever since, I figure for someone who doesn't have all kinds of fancy chops an instrument like that is ideal, just keep it simple, keep it clean, and live on tone...
Lucky I'm sane after all I've been through
I can't complain, but sometimes I still do
Life's been good to me so far...