How do you mic your guitar cabs?

[geetar_geek79]

I have a sure SM57 that I usually put a little off axis from the center of the cone for recording.  I can't seem to get a good sound out of it no matter where I move it.  It's mainly the heavy metal rhythm I can't get right.   It sounds too artificial.  Cleans usually come out fine.  I've read on some forums suggesting to use two mics bused together going to a single track inorder to solve some phasing problems.

Any suggestions?

[starfugger]

this might help (and entertain):

http://badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html#goals

it's really difficult to get that palm muting sound. i think you have to use the right guitar and the right amp for that, other than just the mics and the pre's.  for alternative rock distortion guitars i do multi mic'ing. some mics go dead on, sometimes, a tad off axis.  

the thing  i noticed about some bands doing metal is that they tweak the distortion knob of their Boss Metal Zone (if they're using boss metal zone) to the fullest.  now of course everything is a matter of taste, and some bands will insist on keeping it that way.  only it's difficult to get that solid definition out of a sound if everything is plain fuzz.  especially from palm muted parts.  usually, the disotrion knob set to 9:00 or so works just fine.

you may also try layering parts, especially if you're going easy on the distortion knob.  say, use one effect on a track, then another, doing the exact same thing you did the first time.  then pan the tracks hard left and hard right for a stereo effect.  this will not sound the same as chaining two guitar effects.  for angst i record with the boss metal zone, then to add a little body to the whole thing i use the turbo overdrive (which yeilds a very warm sound).

if you're not on studio time then you have all the time on the world to experiment.  

hope this helps.

[KitC]

I have a sure SM57 that I usually put a little off axis from the center of the cone for recording.  I can't seem to get a good sound out of it no matter where I move it.  It's mainly the heavy metal rhythm I can't get right.   It sounds too artificial.  Cleans usually come out fine.  I've read on some forums suggesting to use two mics bused together going to a single track inorder to solve some phasing problems.

Any suggestions?

It's usually recommended to elevate the amp from the floor so that you minimize capturing reflections from the floor. Also, when using 2 mics, always remember the 3 - 1 rule: the distance between 2 mics should be 3 times or greater than the distance of the mics from the source. This is important when stereo miking or using 2 mics with the same source to avoid phasing problems. If the 2nd mic is a distant mic for capturing ambience, this doesn't apply.

+1 on Hazel's suggestion on double tracking. I suggest further that one of the tracks has more attack instead of fuzz then blending the 2 tracks; often it's the attack portion that provides more definition to a sound.

[geetar_geek79]

WOW!  Great responses guys.  I'll definitely try your suggestions out.  Thanks!!!

[geetar_geek79]

Kung magre-record ako ng guitar cab, pero low volume lang sya, mas maganda ba pag condenser mic instead of SM57 ko?  Pwede ba condenser sa high volume recording, say practice levels?  Ano kagandahan ng ribbon mics?

[KitC]

Kung magre-record ako ng guitar cab, pero low volume lang sya, mas maganda ba pag condenser mic instead of SM57 ko?  Pwede ba condenser sa high volume recording, say practice levels?  Ano kagandahan ng ribbon mics?

Kanya-kanyang tonal response yan kada mic. For ex., condensers, because of their lighter diaphragms, can capture fast attack transients and high frequencies better. Usually, the smaller the diaphragm, the more sensitive it becomes to higher frequencies, but at the sake of low frequency sensitivity. Some condensers are rated at high SPLs for high volume level recording, check the specs for those.

For dynamics naman, the design lends itself to heavier diaphragm design that's why they usually have a high frequency rolloff. The SM-57/68 are usually rated no higher than 18,000 hertz. Their heavier construction means they can usually handle high SPLs and keep on going. You can even drop an SM-58 and it will still operate (try that with a U-87).

Think of ribbon mics as dynamics having condenser-like qualities. The problem with ribbons, you blow into the mic, sira ang ribbon; you turn on phantom power, you destroy the mic. But the ribbon's sound is often described as exquisite and are sometimes used for difficult to mic instruments such as saxes, horns and other wind instruments, as well as some esoteric percussion.

[BALDO]

pards i just had a conversation with a pro audio guy regarding ribbon mics.. he claims that the NEW design will allow you to record in high volume.. because of the new material they are using.. he said it is good for sax and guitars ( cabs).. yes you guessed it right - Royer..costs like 1200$..  another brand of ribbon mic which is cheaper doesn't quite cut it he said..

[BALDO]

My question is... are you using a BIG cabinet ? try using a 15 watt amp and crank it up.. you will get a better sound from a cranked up small wattage guitar amp than a big amp..say a marshall stack...   ..if you still dont believe me, read the portion on aspen pittman's TUBE AMP book...

[geetar_geek79]

My question is... are you using a BIG cabinet ? try using a 15 watt amp and crank it up.. you will get a better sound from a cranked up small wattage guitar amp than a big amp..say a marshall stack...   ..if you still dont believe me, read the portion on aspen pittman's TUBE AMP book...

I tried that, but cranking small solid state amps doesn't really do me any good...  i don't think it will make any difference kasi solid state yung power stage so walang tube na isa-saturate...  it may drive the speaker a little but i'm not sure if that's gonna be good.  I'm trying to mic a 4x12 Mesa/Boogie...  I want to record it without having to crank the amp and blow the walls off...

[starfugger]

well, there is such a thing as cone excursion and a point where the cabinet really plays into the sound so cranking the amp could still help, despite it being solid state.  do read that slipperman thing and you'll learn a lot of valuable tips (his french aside).

baldo is right, the newer ribbons like royer 121 are less delicate than the original ones. i haven't had the pleasure of hearing how they sound yet. hopefully next year. from what i hear these ribbon mics work best with certain preamps, or ones that have variable impedance at least.
the say the coles 4038 sound great on drum overheads.  GAS.

if you have several mics, try multi-micing at the same time at different positions and different angles.  or how about a different guitar?

[skunkyfunk]

Miking a guitar cab is not the be-all and the end-all.  Knowing how to tweak amps and effects to get the best sound is still the most important part.

Some newbie walks in with a Marshall MG 15W amp, Zoom 505 and a local Strat copy.  Then you ask him, "What sound are you after?"  Then he answers, "Like Killswitch Engage, with that mean chuggh."  So the studio engineer says "I'll do my best..." *cough* *cough*  

Then during the final mix, Mr. newbie scratches his head out of discontent.  He says it was the engineer's fault.  "Akala ko ba maganda mics ng studio niya? Puro *Shure* at *Protools* naman gamit niya.  Bano talaga ang mga studio engineer dito sa 'pinas..."

I'll be real mean, but I think direct recording worsens the problem.  So I'd rather take my chance working on an Marshall MG with an 8" speaker....

[geetar_geek79]

Miking a guitar cab is not the be-all and the end-all.  Knowing how to tweak amps and effects to get the best sound is still the most important part.

Some newbie walks in with a Marshall MG 15W amp, Zoom 505 and a local Strat copy.  Then you ask him, "What sound are you after?"  Then he answers, "Like Killswitch Engage, with that mean chuggh."  So the studio engineer says "I'll do my best..." *cough* *cough*  

Then during the final mix, Mr. newbie scratches his head out of discontent.  He says it was the engineer's fault.  "Akala ko ba maganda mics ng studio niya? Puro *Shure* at *Protools* naman gamit niya.  Bano talaga ang mga studio engineer dito sa 'pinas..."

I'll be real mean, but I think direct recording worsens the problem.  So I'd rather take my chance working on an Marshall MG with an 8" speaker....

I  totally agree with you.  When we recorded our demo, I just used a marshall MG100.  double tracked it.  One with mic, one coming out of the compensated headphone out (a direct out)!  The setting I use live wasn't the setting I used to record.  What happened was, I had to tweak it and listen to it through the monitors...  it worked.

I was just wondering if it's possible to have the same settings I use live, and record it with a mic or two and have close recorded sound to my live sound - if anybody here had done it...  I would also like to use this "miking technique" live because I'm tired of not hearing the sound I want to hear from the floor monitors...

I, personally, don't think "Bano talaga ang mga studio engineer sa Pilipinas"...  Whoever recorded yung album ni Kitchie Nadal (don't know the name of the record) is really good...  also, the guitar playing is excellent.  I think one of the songs is "Run"...

[dantuts]

experiment lang.. i dont have the luxury of recording with tubes amps plus a 4X12 cabinet. so i usually record to a 15watt VOX pathfinder.. sometimes i put the mic at the center with a least 3 in. distance from the cone. sometimes off axis. for me, i make sure the miked guitar sound good at my monitor bfore even recording it. i do the necessary adjustments first (to avoid clipping/overdistortion) dapat sa simula palang ok na. that will save you time when mixing.

and btw, if your into high gain stuff. try recording it layer by layer. tapos wag mong i todo agad yung gain ng amp mo or pedal. like they said magiging fuzzy and magkakaroon ng mga clipping. tapos panning etc..


question, i often saw engineer's miking for close from the cone, ako hindi ko pa natry kasi parang mas mabilis mag clip. i dont know.. share naman

[BALDO]

pards
" a high powered AMP like a Marshall o Hiwatt wil sound amazing in a BIG room, nowadays studios are small and the volume can be too much for the room,  you will just hear the engineer telling you, you have to turn down if you insist on using cranked amps because you can't get the sweet sound of a cranked amp."
many top guitarists have known for years that 4W ,10W or 15 W CAN SOUND HUGE ON A RECORD..they keep quiet about it in interviews , thinking their image will be blown if they admit their monster tone was made with a little fender champ..
"Jimmy Page who is known for his Les Paul and Marshall stack was even reported to be USING A FENDER TELE  and a small SUPRO AMP.."
so there it goes..  

[BALDO]

another solution i can think of is to use a guitar efx processor which has a tube in it.. the older Zoom valve DSP has one..

[dantuts]

baldo...tama ka nga .. mostly recording artist use smaller amp with less wattage. i read na malmsteen use 50watt marshall tube amps during recordings. kasi mas madali daw i cranked tska you dont need full stacks naman daw during recording.

[BALDO]

yup..so with keith richards of the stones.. saka madami pang iba.. it is the machismo with big amps that's the issue that's why they dont tell it to everyone.

[skunkyfunk]

Dummy loads can help make that cranked tube sound at lower volumes.  Speaker choices also do matter.  Some tend to break up easily like Greenbacks and Alnico Blues.  But Jensen Ceramics and V30s have way too much headroom to get cone distortion.

[geetar_geek79]

I'm sorry but I think we may be getting off track here a bit...  I DON'T need/want to crank the amp.  I like the sound coming out of it at bedroom level.  My problem is DUPLICATING that sound when tracking or playing live.  Everytime I or someone else at the club try to mic my cab, I get a totally different sound when I listen to it.  I don't hear on the monitors what I hear from my amp.

What I would like to know is some miking techniques from you guys...  like closed miking, bathroom miking for room reverb, using two mics (one close prox, one ambient), etc and to truthfully duplicate my amp sound.

I already have it handled as far as tweaking goes -- like not to use too much gain or obliterate the mids!    For a metal guy like me, I actually BOOST the mids!  Yes, I do!  BUT...  I boost mids on the PRE-GAIN stage to give the amp a tighter attack.  So I pretty much place my EQ first in line, probably after a compressor - so the compresor does not amplify the noise floor of the EQ.  I basically curve my EQ as a "frown" rather than a"V".  Now if the "frown" is a boost (all sliders above unity gain), or a cut, or both, is a matter of personal taste.  Gotta remember the guitar is a midrange-heavy instrument.  Then, I usually set my distortion (MT2 or any other) at a conservative gain level because I can use the EQ's level as an added gain stage.  This way, there wouldn't be too much hiss.  What this also does is make the frequencies that are set higher clip before the other ones - giving the input to your distorion your "customized frequency response" in addition to the characteristics of your guitar.  Now post-gain is different!  I cut the mids AFTER the gain stages - a standard in metal tone.  BUT I DON'T OVERDO IT!  I only set it "to taste".

Whew!  That was pretty long.  Hopefully some of you metal guitarists find this informative.  This is how Mesa/Boogie Mark II's, IV's, and the Quad Preamp (don't know about the Triaxis) have their EQ set up (I believe, somebody correct me if not).  The tone knobs are pre gain stages, and the graphic EQ is post gain...

Now going back to the topic... I know how to get 'my' tone, I just don't know how to record it...  

Thank you for all your inputs and PM's...  
Keep them comin'!!!!

[starfugger]

well, looks like you know your sound pretty well, which is step one. admittedly what you hear in the room is not always what you'll get on record.  keep moving that mic around.  i really strongly suggest using other mics to capture the different frequencies from your amp.  as we know there are certain frequencies that an sm57 can't accentuate very well (the mids should be alright with a 57).  perhaps an EV RE20 will be more to your liking.  it offers a fuller, rounder sound without totally killing the mids.  then you can layer tracks recorded using different mics/pre's.  also, try different distances from the amp.  when i recorded this band's demo some time ago, the guitarist was not satisfied because what he was hearing from the amp was different from what was actually coming in.  mostly we just moved the mic around until we hit the right spot.  this is the reason why i ask the guitarist to setup inside the tracking room with the amp first before moving back to the control room.

[geetar_geek79]

another solution i can think of is to use a guitar efx processor which has a tube in it.. the older Zoom valve DSP has one..

I actually get clean and decent sounds going direct with a Digitech 2120 (now discontinued).  But I can't quite nail a good, organic, and three dimensional "mic'd" sound.

I guess for now, since tatanga-[chewbacca] pa ako sa mic'd recording, I'll just be recording some clips direct... but my Diezel will just become paper weight.    or better yet - "kalso"!  nyahahaha!

[glassjaw_jc]

practice makes perfect lang sir. makukuha mo din yan.