Ornette Coleman - Avant-garde / Free-form jazz

[rodney vidanes]

what can you say about Ornette Coleman?

he was one of the pioneer of the avant-garde,free-form jazz aside from one of the few notable persons of the form like John Coltrane. Coleman was also the man behind "THe Shape of Jazz to Come". A versatile player of the conventional jazz form but he also has a wider vision about jazz. While some were able to criticize him for his different point of view about jazz, partially i understand what he's trying to say thru his compositions even though he displays atonal approach--it's the language of his heart..but theoretically, that's what interests me, his art and principle of Harmolodics. i think it's worth exploring.

please share your thoughts about him, his recordings you have in your shelf or your opinions about the so-called free-form jazz.

[Chito]

Check out the album "Song X" where he collaborates with Pat Metheny. They're backed up by Charlie Haden on bass and Jack deJohnette on drums together with Ornette's son Denardo. When I bought this album in '85 it was too much to comprehend. Still is after 21 years hahahahahaha

[rodney vidanes]

yeah i have that album "SOng X". but i don't know why i was able to appreciate it upon hearing the tracks from that album.i know it sounded so uncommon, or it could be weird or seemingly unorganized for most who'd listen to it; you'd hear contrasting melodies simultaneously played by the members of the group...all i noticed was that they were true to themselves and to what they were doing..there was a sense of freedom of expression but communication between the musicians was still in control.the sound is atonal--it might not be conforming to the styles of music of the world that we grew up with, but i think the free-form jazz is more deeply concerned with the expression of the soul, the person within. or the artist in you.

[Deacon Blues]

I think I'd like to call it 'alternative jazz' ...

When I listen to it, I want to look for an alternative ..  

There's a very thin line between freedom and chaos, and Ornette's music teeters on the brink ..

Now, let me qualify that I haven't heard much of his music, but just for the record, I prefer not to listen to Song X at all.

Call me ignorant, but his playing sounds sloppy to me .. I know there's a valid reason behind such a radical technical approach to the instrument, but when you say sax, I'd really rather listen to someone else, like say, David Sanborn or Brecker ..

Maybe you can enlighten us a little more? ..

[deltaslim]

sa akin ok pa i-digest yung Shape of Jazz To Come... pero yung Free Jazz, nabubulunan ako!

but what i take away from OC is playing from his heart and letting his subconscious out. almost like a stream of consciousness thing.  musically, i look for his innovations in melody, rhythm, dissonance. ung lines nya, especially, sound sometimes like a voice speaking a local dialect -- short mini-melody lines na hindi connected, unlike bird na long legato lines. altho i know chamba lang nya un kasi he himself said he doesn't know and can't analyze what he will play before he plays it!

[rodney vidanes]

I think I'd like to call it 'alternative jazz' ...

When I listen to it, I want to look for an alternative ..  

There's a very thin line between freedom and chaos, and Ornette's music teeters on the brink ..

Now, let me qualify that I haven't heard much of his music, but just for the record, I prefer not to listen to Song X at all.

Call me ignorant, but his playing sounds sloppy to me .. I know there's a valid reason behind such a radical technical approach to the instrument, but when you say sax, I'd really rather listen to someone else, like say, David Sanborn or Brecker ..

Maybe you can enlighten us a little more? ..

I like Brecker,very rhythmic and soothing his lines are.
but actually i don't know how to enlighten you because i'm also searching and trying to comprehend OC's music.
 
i'm not just so quick to judge his unacceptable-to-the-world music..OC knows how to play traditional jazz but him having a view of an otherworldly music doesn't mean he is a sloppy player--just my opinion     in fact he had been given a few awards for his works according to his discography. I think he's just misunderstood..he was trying to voice out his views but critics just didn't want his explanations whatsoever.His thoughts could be high.quite difficult to fathom. It's true that there's a valid reason behind OC's approach. but it's not just actually about the technique of sax playing OC is trying to show but his uniquely crafted compositions.

[rodney vidanes]

altho i know chamba lang nya un kasi he himself said he doesn't know and can't analyze what he will play before he plays it!

ako naman i dont wanna call it chamba especially if the context is in jazz or improvisational which involves spontaneous reaction and conversation between musicians..i think we dont have to analyze everything that we do musically especially if what we play or the notes we play just come out naturally to convey a message..some stuff need explanation or analysis and  some stuff are just fine which don't need thorough investigation--it's just how some things are, like how GOD created the world    how we are formed with normally 5 fingers in each hand and 5 toes in each foot; or why coconut trees were made that way and why not the other way...

well Ornette's music is really not designed for everyone...it's not the type of music that you'd listen to everday but at least it is something with a voice of its own as well.  i'd rather listen to Ornette's music each day than hear April Boy's song in 2 minutes..di ko kayang tanggapin      

[deltaslim]

altho i know chamba lang nya un kasi he himself said he doesn't know and can't analyze what he will play before he plays it!

ako naman i dont wanna call it chamba especially if the context is in jazz or improvisational which involves spontaneous reaction and conversation between musicians..i think we dont have to analyze everything that we do musically especially if what we play or the notes we play just come out naturally to convey a message..some stuff need explanation or analysis and  some stuff are just fine which don't need thorough investigation--it's just how some things are, like how GOD created the world    how we are formed with normally 5 fingers in each hand and 5 toes in each foot; or why coconut trees were made that way and why not the other way...

well Ornette's music is really not designed for everyone...it's not the type of music that you'd listen to everday but at least it is something with a voice of its own as well.  i'd rather listen to Ornette's music each day than hear April Boy's song in 2 minutes..di ko kayang tanggapin      

i totally agree on your take on why it's not "chamba"... otoh, it's mainstream artists like april boy who make the music of ornette so "out", so maybe we need april boy in this world every now and then?

[Deacon Blues]

April Boy? ..

Hmmm, I actually like his music ...  

Do I get chastised for saying that? .. well, at least it's melodic stuff  

Now, I do know that some (one? or two?) of the songs in Metheny's 'Bright Size Life' album are actually Ornette compositions, and I do like those..

Ditto for 'Lonely Woman' in Pat's 'Rejoicing' album ..

I have yet to hear of Ornette's other works along the same vein, so I guess the bashing was uncalled for ...

One thing I know, when you're in bed nursing a cold, you reach for the Ornex and the Coleman ...  

[markthevirtuoso]

Napakinggan ko yung Trio nya lately. 'Antiques' palang meron ako eh. Rambulan sila.ehehe Nakakalunod!

May nabasa akong quote dati ng isang Freeform-Avante-Jazz guitarist (nalimutan ko na eh) sa G1 mag... It influenced me heavily.

"You don't have to hit the right notes, you just have to be committed with it."

Check nyo rin yung music ni Derek Bailey. Rambulan din!!!!

[deltaslim]

"You don't have to hit the right notes, you just have to be committed with it."

+1   Mas lalong tunog mali if you yourself are tentative and unsure.  There's a quote in Strunk & White's "Elements of Style" to this effect. In essence, sabi nila, pagmag-recite ka in class, lakasan mo salita mo. Para kung mali ka, mali ka lang (at least tunog tama ka pa rin), hindi yung mali ka na tapos mukha ka pang [chewbacca]!

[psychic_sushi]

Ive got the "Tone Dialling" album, have heard "Song X" and a whole motley assortment of OC's motley music here and there.

I guess his music can be aurally confusing at first hear. It's an acquired taste. I think i get where he's drawing some of his compositional ideas, such as some tracks in "Tone Dialling" where he has two utterly different pieces of music juxtaposed on or running against each other, with his sax hovering above it. kinda like playin a 3/4 theme over a 5/4, but instead of conflicting meters, music, to solo over!

i have to hand it to him, OC has achieved a compositional technique which is dead certain to draw a response from all listeners, much faster than April Boy could upon first listen. The colors and emotions are totally OC's.

But, it is all an acquired taste. I don't think any of us here would listen to the harmolodic stuff to unwind on a lazy afternoon, to energize our flesh on a sludgy monday morning, or to perk us up and keep us wide awake during events of lethargy midday. But I guess that's OC's point in his music. It's not pop. Will never be. I don't think it has been designed for mundane pleasure. The harmelodic concept is as sophisticated as it borders on the confusing, and provides an almost alien terrain for access. I have magazines that have featured Vernon Reid (the modern proponent of harmelodic rock guitar) and James Blood Ulmer (perhaps the bastion of harmelodic guitar playing) and frankly, I have read hard (in and between the lines) to find the basics and basis of its concepts, BUT unforunately, Ulmer is secretive and won't share and Reid sounds like he's on glossolalia when describing the music! You've got shred and progressive guitar's "naked to the point of pornography" technique exposure on one side, then the harmelodic mystics who have harder noses, tighter lips and stiffer necks than what jazz snobs and blues legends have. It's either that deep in concept, or just plain vague and elusive, even to the practitioners.

I would consider harmelodiscm to lie in the extremes of improvisation and composition. If there was a differential for the measurement of improvisation and composition, classical composed music (which is only improvised upon during the creation process before being committted to the staves) residing on one end of the scale, harmolodicism would perhaps have its nest as classicals polar opposite. and all things lie according to their improvisational (and sane!?!) degrees within the mid region.

correct me if i'm wrong. enlighten me with all your might.

my balancing point: i think it was one of the marsalis brothers who stated that we do not go to the art to see what it can GIVE to US, but we go to it to see what WE can GET from it. as varied and diverse as how OC's music may mean to me, the next guy and the whole population, that's all personal and esoteric in nature. i cant really grasp it, perhaps its my ignorance, or the not-so-hospitable nature of the music.

[psychic_sushi]

i found this discussion about the concept. perhaps you can add a comment on it

http://www.ibreathemusic.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2459

the folks here are echoing my sentiment. but would never refer to anybody as "snorting ajax", heheheheh

[pinoymusika]

ok. maybe someone can explain it to a moron like me
One thing I could never grasp with Ornette Coleman and his disciples like James Blood Ulmer was the concept of harmolodics. Can someone break it down in a simple way? I'm not a hopeless case, kahit paano na grasp ko na rin yung 'modal improvisation" ni Coltrane:)

[psychic_sushi]

i think its as hard as explaining the nature of the holy trinity, or the mystery behind the droppa stone discs. judging by the flow of the above-mentioned ibreathemusic forum, and considering the know-how of the folks involved, they too, are stupified. count me in on the morons club, i'm searching for answers.

but, if a music is hard to grasp, and the proponents of such music secretive, is it worth the fuss?

i have yet to meet a diehard harmelodic practitioner. i wont even search for a diehard group.

[Deacon Blues]

.. when the student is ready, the school bus will appear ..  

[Deacon Blues]

Could this perhaps explain the origins of the harmolodic concept?

A review of
Ornette Coleman:
A Harmolodic Life
by John Litweiler

... He certainly didn't have a very promising start. Coleman, an autodidact, taught himself "wrong" (unfortunately for his self esteem, perhaps, but fortunately for the history of Western music): unaware while learning his notes that the saxophone is a transposing instrument, he came to understand his horn in a very unconventional way. (In fact, Litweiler recounts Gunther Schuller's harrowing tale of Coleman's studying with him in the early '60s, to learn the "standard" approach to music. On the day it dawned on Coleman just how much his musical understanding differed from the norm, he became violently ill, and never showed up for a lesson again.) ...

[psychic_sushi]

Could this perhaps explain the origins of the harmolodic concept?

A review of
Ornette Coleman:
A Harmolodic Life
by John Litweiler

... He certainly didn't have a very promising start. Coleman, an autodidact, taught himself "wrong" (unfortunately for his self esteem, perhaps, but fortunately for the history of Western music): unaware while learning his notes that the saxophone is a transposing instrument, he came to understand his horn in a very unconventional way. (In fact, Litweiler recounts Gunther Schuller's harrowing tale of Coleman's studying with him in the early '60s, to learn the "standard" approach to music. On the day it dawned on Coleman just how much his musical understanding differed from the norm, he became violently ill, and never showed up for a lesson again.) ...

ok, i'm getting a clearer picture. i tip my hat in reverence to OC for his unconventional bravado. the whole concept must be strictly personal and philosophical, a rationalization of what may be erroneous in nature before the eyes of the conventional. no wonder reid and ulmer couldn't describe it in unequivocating language. its because the musics nature is equivocating.

OC must have encountered a serious health problem triggered by the climate-change upon setting foot in "standard music approach"-land.

it is great to be unconventional, and OC has my respect for being innovative and finding musical character. but as for his music...

(i state all this without negativity, i'm merely describing it as it is.)

[rodney vidanes]

i dont know anything deeper yet about Harmolodics but i read a couple of articles about it...very theoretical ang explanation,medyo nakakatAmad din basahin hehe little by little lang...mas nakakahilo kasi magbasa minsan kaysa makinig but i could relate to it by listening to OC's stuff...what i also like about him is that he's not just unconventional but he is true to his unconventionality...