What is the Achilles heel of our recordings?

[KitC]

Personally, I feel that we should develop our "own' sound more than to try and copy others. Sure, the great engineers are out there and they probably serve as benchmarks for us, but we also lack a certain... identity.

One example that comes to mind are the japanese. Somehow, their sound has become accepted in the main stream (even though, at times, it sounds cheesy to me). The japanese have infused their national identity into their music and it does get appreciated by other cultures... something I think we should strive for.

[jcv]

Just wanna share a few ideas. I hope you guys will find this relevant. 

1. They know how to build their own mics, consoles, instruments, hardware etc.. everything. They've been doing that for so many years, I think that's a big + for them.

2. About talent.. Yes we have so many talented musicians including engineers. But the music we play today, it's not all originally ours. We're too busy trying to copy their blues and rock etc.. We try to copy even the way they record their songs. But I guess it's not really a bad thing to like their music, because they have beautiful music, music that reflects their culture. We have learned so much about their music, I just hope that someday they would learn from ours.. So I really agree with the post above, we should develop our own sound.

3. I think our Achilles heel is... money. hehe 

[abyssinianson]

Personally, I feel that we should develop our "own' sound more than to try and copy others. Sure, the great engineers are out there and they probably serve as benchmarks for us, but we also lack a certain... identity.

One example that comes to mind are the japanese. Somehow, their sound has become accepted in the main stream (even though, at times, it sounds cheesy to me). The japanese have infused their national identity into their music and it does get appreciated by other cultures... something I think we should strive for.

yeah. ironically, the japanese market is the biggest music market out of the US and Europe but a lot of the people don't listen to as much to Western music like they do their own homegrown music. As a result, the music that gets produced in japan is an interesting hybrid of outside styles and their own version of music creativity which can be great or cheesy. Still, the stuff sells like hotcakes and I often had to wait in line at the local "Like an Edison" (a record place) to even listen to a new CD out because kids were just so rabid over new artist releases!

[xjepoyx]

A bit OT:
While browsing thru my dvd collection... i just found out that "Guitar Wars" is entirely Japanese produced. even live recording they can really stand out.
I also heard that Population1 album of Nuno is also Japanese produced.

[fascinatedbymusic]

well, all i can suggest to you guys is, stop influencing your result to foreign products and start to focus on your own. after all these years, you're always proving to your self that you're at par with the foreigners. some call it, GODS. this is the reason why they're always one step ahead of us or even more. you can never sound like them because if you are, then you're not a filipino. simple as that.

ironically, all the advises/techniques that i've read here is not original. i've already read them from the books. heehehehehe

let the flames begin. hehehehehe

[skunkyfunk]

well, all i can suggest to you guys is, stop influencing your result to foreign products and start to focus on your own. after all these years, you're always proving to your self that you're at par with the foreigners. some call it, GODS. this is the reason why they're always one step ahead of us or even more. you can never sound like them because if you are, then you're not a filipino. simple as that.

ironically, all the advises/techniques that i've read here is not original. i've already read them from the books. heehehehehe

let the flames begin. hehehehehe

So Mr. Freelance engineer, what ORIGINAL TECHNIQUES do you wanna share with us?  Have you tried setting up your own studio with a limited budget to cater to most clients?  Or are you busy just waiting for that call to track or mix because you are a so-called freelance "STUDIO EFFIN ENGINEER"?  Ang ganda tignan sa calling card kasi na "sound engineer", that even my 13-year old cousin can do that too because she knows logic express.

All the techniques being done here and abroad are based on OLD KNOWLEDGE.  Even your editing and snipping waveforms using your mouse using auto-crossfades are based on the concept of splicing tape and having the right angles on the tape cuts to determine the length of the crossfade.  Have you done that yourself Mr. Freelance engineer?  Engineer ka diba?  Have you also done tape loops and tape echoes?  Flanging with two tape decks?   Your very beloved pirated plugins are also based on hardware designs of the past. 

Nobody is claiming OPM recordings being superior to the foreign material.  For one, listen to the indie scene in the US.  They don't sound as clean or overproduced as the multi-million$ productions. 

Our main problem in the recordings this country is the fact that the production is compelled to cut corners, always.  It is either they end up having more hours to record in a crap studio, or less hours to record in a good studio.  Chances are, indie musicians would always depend on ALL the studio's equipment, including the amps and drums which, in other countries, is not the case.  Throw in a freelance engineer for the project who doesn't know squat about the routes and ways around the studio, you're in trouble.

[skunkyfunk]

let the flames begin. hehehehehe

At mag-ingat ka.  Ako ang batas ng MTPA.  Ako lang may karapatan mang-asar dito.












 

[titser_marco]

So Mr. Freelance engineer, what ORIGINAL TECHNIQUES do you wanna share with us?  Have you tried setting up your own studio with a limited budget to cater to most clients?  Or are you busy just waiting for that call to track or mix because you are a so-called freelance "STUDIO EFFIN ENGINEER"?  Ang ganda tignan sa calling card kasi na "sound engineer", that even my 13-year old cousin can do that too because she knows logic express.

All the techniques being done here and abroad are based on OLD KNOWLEDGE.  Even your editing and snipping waveforms using your mouse using auto-crossfades are based on the concept of splicing tape and having the right angles on the tape cuts to determine the length of the crossfade.  Have you done that yourself Mr. Freelance engineer?  Engineer ka diba?  Have you also done tape loops and tape echoes?  Flanging with two tape decks?   Your very beloved pirated plugins are also based on hardware designs of the past. 

PWND!!! Hahahahah!!!

[chuck sabbath]

you can never sound like them because if you are, then you're not a filipino. simple as that

okay!

[inigo]

To sum it up, the Achilles' heel are:

1) Artists want to sound like someone else, but (with the way things are here) that's impossible, so people fck things up.

2) Lack of research, preparation, anality, and a few dashes of open-mindedness.

[fascinatedbymusic]

So Mr. Freelance engineer, what ORIGINAL TECHNIQUES do you wanna share with us?  Have you tried setting up your own studio with a limited budget to cater to most clients?  Or are you busy just waiting for that call to track or mix because you are a so-called freelance "STUDIO EFFIN ENGINEER"?  Ang ganda tignan sa calling card kasi na "sound engineer", that even my 13-year old cousin can do that too because she knows logic express.

All the techniques being done here and abroad are based on OLD KNOWLEDGE.  Even your editing and snipping waveforms using your mouse using auto-crossfades are based on the concept of splicing tape and having the right angles on the tape cuts to determine the length of the crossfade.  Have you done that yourself Mr. Freelance engineer?  Engineer ka diba?  Have you also done tape loops and tape echoes?  Flanging with two tape decks?   Your very beloved pirated plugins are also based on hardware designs of the past. 

Nobody is claiming OPM recordings being superior to the foreign material.  For one, listen to the indie scene in the US.  They don't sound as clean or overproduced as the multi-million$ productions. 

Our main problem in the recordings this country is the fact that the production is compelled to cut corners, always.  It is either they end up having more hours to record in a crap studio, or less hours to record in a good studio.  Chances are, indie musicians would always depend on ALL the studio's equipment, including the amps and drums which, in other countries, is not the case.  Throw in a freelance engineer for the project who doesn't know squat about the routes and ways around the studio, you're in trouble.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. I bet you're hit right in the middle and you're hurt because it's the truth. I'm just suggesting. Just sharing views not techniques. NOT IMPOSING. Anyways, you don't need to know my techniques because you are very much brainwashed by the foreigner's thing. I guess you know the difference. You can say anything you want and I can say anything I want as long I'm within the forum rules. It's our freedom here. HEHEHEHEHEHE

At mag-ingat ka.  Ako ang batas ng MTPA.  Ako lang may karapatan mang-asar dito.

 

Mag-ingat ka rin kasi lahat tayo dito may karapatan mang asar. HAHAHAHAHAHAH .. GOT YOU!!! Sabi nga ni bitoy,, YARI KA!...

[skunkyfunk]

HAHAHAHAHAHA. I bet you're hit right in the middle and you're hurt because it's the truth.

THIS MADE ME CRACK UP.          Matagal ko nang alam ang problema ng recordings natin kaya tinatawanan ko na lang.  Pero mas natatawa ako sa mga taong gustong maging messiah.

I'm just suggesting. Just sharing views not techniques. NOT IMPOSING. Anyways, you don't need to know my techniques because you are very much brainwashed by the foreigner's thing. I guess you know the difference.

LIAR.  You just tried to pick a fight here by saying our techniques aren't original and your Mozart reincarnate persona says "you read them in the books...":

ironically, all the advises/techniques that i've read here is not original. i've already read them from the books. heehehehehe

let the flames begin. hehehehehe

The point is, NO ONE READS THE BOOKS.  What the helpful people here are doing is make the readers aware of basic recording techniques that have existed way before even when your Momma and Poppa were in diapers.  It is easy for a person to grab a pirated copy of Sonar and record without even reading the PDF manual, which causes this proliferation of bad recordings like a contagious disease.

Now what I am challenging you to do is TELL US WHAT IS SO ORIGINAL ABOUT YOUR TECHNIQUES as a SOUND ENGINEER as you claim you are.  Because I would assume 100% that what techniques you shall offer is virtually a ripoff of a technique that was been done years and years ago now.

You can say anything you want and I can say anything I want as long I'm within the forum rules. It's our freedom here. HEHEHEHEHEHE


Mag-ingat ka rin kasi lahat tayo dito may karapatan mang asar. HAHAHAHAHAHAH .. GOT YOU!!! Sabi nga ni bitoy,, YARI KA!...

You're such a retard.  You cannot just say something here.  And your stupidity not to read forum rules just exemplifies your ignorance.  Here's an excerpt from our forum rules:


4) Be nice to each other and respect the moderator. Profanity and insults will not be tolerated. If you have a problem with another member turn to the forum moderator.

And in that case, sabi ni Bitoy, YARI KA.  Banned... (feeling mod) 


PS  I also work with Symphonic Rock so your sample MP3 doesn't wow me at all.  Nice levels, panning, but nothing special.  They all sound sampled and emulated to me.  Should I say, lack of organic-ness?

[chuck sabbath]

i love the smell of irony in the morning

afternoon na pala

[skunkyfunk]

i love the smell of irony in the morning

afternoon na pala

Chuck, hindi ata papayag byuti ko as resident troll. 

[fascinatedbymusic]

THIS MADE ME CRACK UP.          Matagal ko nang alam ang problema ng recordings natin kaya tinatawanan ko na lang.  Pero mas natatawa ako sa mga taong gustong maging messiah.
LIAR.  You just tried to pick a fight here by saying our techniques aren't original and your Mozart reincarnate persona says "you read them in the books...":
The point is, NO ONE READS THE BOOKS.  What the helpful people here are doing is make the readers aware of basic recording techniques that have existed way before even when your Momma and Poppa were in diapers.  It is easy for a person to grab a pirated copy of Sonar and record without even reading the PDF manual, which causes this proliferation of bad recordings like a contagious disease.

Now what I am challenging you to do is TELL US WHAT IS SO ORIGINAL ABOUT YOUR TECHNIQUES as a SOUND ENGINEER as you claim you are.  Because I would assume 100% that what techniques you shall offer is virtually a ripoff of a technique that was been done years and years ago now.



You're such a retard.  You cannot just say something here.  And your stupidity not to read forum rules just exemplifies your ignorance.  Here's an excerpt from our forum rules:


4) Be nice to each other and respect the moderator. Profanity and insults will not be tolerated. If you have a problem with another member turn to the forum moderator.

And in that case, sabi ni Bitoy, YARI KA.  Banned... (feeling mod) 


PS  I also work with Symphonic Rock so your sample MP3 doesn't wow me at all.  Nice levels, panning, but nothing special.  They all sound sampled and emulated to me.  Should I say, lack of organic-ness?

It's your freedom to criticize. As i said before, say all you want to say. You're the one that is not nice to me and i have no problem with people like your ATTITUDE. That's expected. I understand you reaction and sadly, your frustration.

[chromeknive]

man that was a dopey sounding clip. the "awe" i was supposed to feel was murdered by the cheesy MIDI sounds in the first 10 seconds. the flange on the fading out guitar doesn't help at all. too much reverb on the drums i think. ok, naman siya, sir.  taste lang siguro.

i'm waiting intently for the "original" and "not foreign-derived" ideas and techniques.


anyhow, i think that we know what we want to hear, its just that we can't arrive at that result yet because we can't seem to use our gear/tools transparently enough to retain a "natural" sound. (compressors, eq's)

i think local mixes lack a bit of crispness, air and presence. but i cant bring out that smooth treble i want when i experiment, it always ends up brittle. (and i don't boost eq's like crazy, mind you). not to mention, the bass has to be round and still intact.

i'd say that its the difference in gear perhaps that allows foreign recordings the edge they have. the sum of all the little sonic advantages found in the top-notch gear they have in the signal chain amounts to a huge difference in the end. i think that they can really abuse their gear, in a sense, in the pursuit of the sound they want without getting unwanted artifacts and byproducts.

lalo when mastering comes in. i think they can get away with so much because the mixes don't have anything funky going on.    then us here, we have to be rather conservative in our processing.

hm, i think urbandub's "embrace" has a lot of mixing/mastering abuse but comes out natural enough, timbre-wise, although artificially massive and pummeling dynamics-wise.

disclaimer : beginner here  

[skunkyfunk]

It's your freedom to criticize. As i said before, say all you want to say. You're the one that is not nice to me and i have no problem with people like your ATTITUDE. That's expected. I understand you reaction and sadly, your frustration.

Kid, our world is governed by criticism.  Ika nga ni Kurt Cobain, "Self-appointing judges judge more than they have sold..."  But what really turned me off was when you said that our advice/techniques are "NOT ORIGINAL" because, "you read them in the books."

And what we are advocating here is HELP THOSE WHO ARE LAZY TO READ THE BOOKS.  All of a sudden, you are claiming originality, yet you cannot prove that to us.  It is either you're just picking a fight or have nothing original at all to offer. 

As for your mix, listening to Adagio and Symphony X, your mix sounds very much synthetic.  Try harder. 

[abyssinianson]

well, all i can suggest to you guys is, stop influencing your result to foreign products and start to focus on your own. after all these years, you're always proving to your self that you're at par with the foreigners. some call it, GODS. this is the reason why they're always one step ahead of us or even more. you can never sound like them because if you are, then you're not a filipino. simple as that.

ironically, all the advises/techniques that i've read here is not original. i've already read them from the books. heehehehehe

let the flames begin. hehehehehe

play nice and be constructive - please. being filipino has nothing to do with how well or bad you do your mix; everyone is subject to the same shortcomings no matter where you are from. period. in comparison to other music production scenes, the Pinoy music scene may not hold as much experience but, with time, we too can be as good, if not better than everyone else. we have the gear, the ingenuity and the desire....the only thing that remains is the development of the approach and the method to produce consistent, well done mixes. there are a lot of big players on this board that take an active role in the pro and semi-pro music production evolution of homegrown pinoy artists. i suggest that instead of voicing antagonistic opinions which have no real basis (or purpose), why not offer helpful insight? i am sure you have something to offer that someone here could use in their work, di ba?

[fascinatedbymusic]

Kid, our world is governed by criticism.  Ika nga ni Kurt Cobain, "Self-appointing judges judge more than they have sold..."  But what really turned me off was when you said that our advice/techniques are "NOT ORIGINAL" because, "you read them in the books."

And what we are advocating here is HELP THOSE WHO ARE LAZY TO READ THE BOOKS.  All of a sudden, you are claiming originality, yet you cannot prove that to us.  It is either you're just picking a fight or have nothing original at all to offer. 

As for your mix, listening to Adagio and Symphony X, your mix sounds very much synthetic.  Try harder. 

Sorry, but I'm not claiming. I'm just suggesting, NOT IMPOSING. Prove enough that you're using quotes from other people(Kurt Cobain, etc.). A sign that you are indeed brainwashed. hehehehehehe

As for my mix, it's your problem if you hear it as synthetic, not mine. And I respect your opinion about that. At least, it's my mix(A SYNTHETIC ONE), not a copy from any other mixes. As for Symphony X and Adagio, I already hear mixes and I have no plan in copying those mixes whenever I can. heheheheheheheheh

NOW, you said that my mix is synthetic(i know it sound that way), can you tell me why is sound synthetic? Can you figure it out?

[fascinatedbymusic]

play nice and be constructive - please. being filipino has nothing to do with how well or bad you do your mix; everyone is subject to the same shortcomings no matter where you are from. period. in comparison to other music production scenes, the Pinoy music scene may not hold as much experience but, with time, we too can be as good, if not better than everyone else. we have the gear, the ingenuity and the desire....the only thing that remains is the development of the approach and the method to produce consistent, well done mixes. there are a lot of big players on this board that take an active role in the pro and semi-pro music production evolution of homegrown pinoy artists. i suggest that instead of voicing antagonistic opinions which have no real basis (or purpose), why not offer helpful insight? i am sure you have something to offer that someone here could use in their work, di ba?

Well said and nice too. But, you already quoted some of my insights.

[chromeknive]

will all do respect sir, all you do is say this and that. where's your original advice? arguing for argument's sake, perhaps?

for all your accusations of "brainwashing", lack of originality, etc. you haven't contributed anything that anyone here can use, much less learn from.

you can't type with proper grammar, much less defend yourself properly. (fact, not opinion) evidence :

As for my mix, it's your problem if you hear it as synthetic, not mine. And I respect your opinion about that. At least, it's my mix(A SYNTHETIC ONE), not a copy from any other mixes. As for Symphony X and Adagio, I already hear mixes and I have no plan in copying those mixes whenever I can. heheheheheheheheh

NOW, you said that my mix is synthetic(i know it sound that way), can you tell me why is sound synthetic? Can you figure it out?

you oversimplify things by labeling "learning from existing works" as "copying". there are things we call "industry standards".

gee, i don't know, maybe your mix sounds synthetic because you're too full of yourself and are deaf to the fact that you're not all that.

[fascinatedbymusic]

will all do respect sir, all you do is say this and that. where's your original advice? arguing for argument's sake, perhaps?

for all your accusations of "brainwashing", lack of originality, etc. you haven't contributed anything that anyone here can use, much less learn from.

you can't type with proper grammar, much less defend yourself properly. (fact, not opinion) evidence :

you oversimplify things by labeling "learning from existing works" as "copying". there are things we call "industry standards".

gee, i don't know, maybe your mix sounds synthetic because you're too full of yourself and are deaf to the fact that you're not all that.

now your asking for my original advice? hehehehehehe that's an irony asking advise from a troll(as skunky said). heheheheheheheheh

as for my incorrect grammar, that's because i'm a filipino. i'm not perfect and definitely you're not also. important thing is, you comprehend.

and how can i defend myself when i have nothing to defend. get it?

remember, i'm just suggesting.

that "industry standard" is keeping us one step behind. hehehehehehehe

my voice here is very little but, at least, that's me. hehehehehehe.

if you don't like me, then that's your problem

[chromeknive]

now your asking for my original advice? hehehehehehe that's an irony asking advise from a troll(as skunky said). heheheheheheheheh

as for my incorrect grammar, that's because i'm a filipino. i'm not perfect and definitely you're not also. important thing is, you comprehend.

and how can i defend myself when i have nothing to defend. get it?

remember, i'm just suggesting.

that "industry standard" is keeping us one step behind. hehehehehehehe

my voice here is very little but, at least, that's me. hehehehehehe.

if you don't like me, then that's your problem

1.) no its not an "irony" asking you to share your "original" ways since you've been putting everyone else down for our "unoriginal" ways. check a dictionary for what "irony" means.

2.) the philippines is a bilingual country. quite frankly, having incorrect grammar "because you're a filipino" is quite moronic. that's probably the worst reasoning i've ever heard.

3.) you have nothing to defend? i was referring to defending your arguments. duh.

4.) the "industry standard" is what we cant attain. we're not one step behind, we're several steps behind.   

ito ah, this is called an analogy...baka maconfuse ka e.... how can you play basketball without learning how to dribble? if we follow your logic... we shouldn't learn to dribble at all...    and you haven't been suggesting ANYTHING because you haven't said anything to back up your claims and statements that we should be ORIGINAL.

5.) "if you don't like me, that's your problem".    ang palso ng logic mo.   and all the laughing is your defense mechanism.     the truth is wala kang naiintindihan sa mga sinasabi namin sayo kaya puro palso mga response mo.

[fascinatedbymusic]

In the first place, I don't need to argue because I'm only suggesting. It's up to you to take or leave it. It's your choice....

My reasoning is worst/silly to you because you don't like it. Simple logic. heheheheheheheh Can't help but laugh.. Sorry...

[KitC]

Hmmmm... there's no better bait than flamebait.

Popcorn, anyone?

Interesting subject this thing about originality because if you really think about it, rock isn't originally filipino, it's mostly a caucasian thing. Same with hiphop which we can say is originally african american so it probably shouldn't fit the profile of what a filipino recording should sound like. Even classical music should then be suspect since Mozart, Beethoven, Tsaikovsky and their ilk were so unkind to bestow their musings upon us. So what exactly should an ORIGINAL FILIPINO RECORDING sound like if we were to REMOVE ALL EXTERNAL INFLUENCES? Strangely enough, gamelans and kulintang come to mind, which is a bit ironic since gamelan music is primarily an indonesian thing.

Unfortunately, we didn't invent recording technology. They did, and for that I am thankful. Sure, all these foreign engineers developed all the techniques and gear needed to make a successful recording, and rightly so, since they were doing it while we, as a race, were fighting among ourselves over who should lead our country during our first taste of independence. Oh look! We're fighting among ourselves RIGHT NOW! I think we would get much further ahead if we stop all this crab mentality.

With the global mentality today, there is no way we can make music that hasn't been externally influenced, either through arranging or through technology. Even our very own kundiman must have been influenced by the spaniards in some way 400 years ago. The best thing that we CAN do is develop our own sound, our own style. The japanese have done it and are succeeding; our own music is also somehow being appreciated by people and races who are NOT filipino, so there. At least we're getting somewhere, albeit somewhat slowly with all this infighting.


Ok... rant over. Popcorn's all popped... all I need is some soda or better yet, brewski. Hey Mikey! Got any Samuel Adams in your neck of the woods? What's on HBO?