The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.amps)

[skunkyfunk]

again, for the record, the only amp sim i seemed to like was the POD XT.  it was definitely more convincing than its software counterparts.

I have no idea if the POD XT and POD XT Pro produce the same results as far as emulations are concerned.  Having tried Shinji's PODXT Pro, I was quite convinced that Line 6 DID improve alot since the time I was even gassing for their first bean POD.  What really held me back from buying the POD were the soundclips from the Line 6 site!  But that was some 6-7 years ago. 

[alroyT]

There was this time when my band walked into a studio for pre prod stuff and we were surrounded with tube amps,well fine and dandy until its was my time to record.Our music then was very heavy so I was leaning towards a hi-gain kinda vibe but the problem was none of the Randall,marshall,or even a soldano slo couldt get the job done.We were lookin for a particular kinda sound.I asked the sound guy if I could try the mesa triple rectifier,he told me I could but the amp needs re-tubing so that was no longer an option.
                      Lo and behold he pulled out the first generation POD(this was back in '99 i think)and made me try the california setting w/c was the dual recto mode.I was totally floored with that unit,none of the tube amps that time met my expectation.And yes I was wailing away at 128db(exaggerating)in front of my monitors blowing wind on my face like it was the real mcoy.
              My point?who gives a rats ass(pardon my french) for the FM curve @ that time?Nope not me.The POD has become a staple equipment in any professional recording environment,if u dont have one, then get into the freakin program napag iiwanan ka na  .If a client needs a vox tone do u have the ac-30?What if there's only 3 amps in yer arsenal,that means I only have 3 choices.
Hey if the POD is good enough for Satch,its good enough for me, or Adrian Belew,kirk hammet,steve morse or even Jepoy.Geez line 6 should be paying me for this.
I dont like the PODxt live tho

[skunkyfunk]

Does it have to be A POD?  A lot of other equipment can surely beat a POD, at least what most experienced users say.  But I do agree that the POD has been a "household name" hence the familiarity of most musicians.

Line 6 owns us all in the marketing department.

[alroyT]

dude its not a marketing hype,if the product is good it will sell itself.I know the other products yer talkin about and i tend to disagree.Sometime in the future a product WILL outshine the POD but right now let Line 6 bask under the glory.

Experienced users?They use the POD,its on print.

[skunkyfunk]

I am looking forward to the Spider Valve.  I think that doesn't require me to get a POD.  It has DI capabilities too.  No problem with miking.  The Pocket POD seems appealing though because of the price.

[KitC]

Line 6 owns us all in the marketing department.

By your same reasoning, so does Fender... and Gibson, and Ibanez, and Roland, and Yamaha, and Korg, and Shure, and Bogner, and Randall, and DiMarzio, and Microsoft, and Apple, and Coca Cola... and every freakin' branded product that we've ever bought and will continue to buy. Companies live or die by their marketing. If we didn't want to be owned by them, we might as well DIY our own stuff.

[alroyT]

I am looking forward to the Spider Valve.

now we are on the same boat,Im waiting for my friend from GC to buzz me up when the spider valve arrives,I'll let u know if it was worth the wait,if u want.

[alroyT]

By your same reasoning, so does Fender... and Gibson, and Ibanez, and Roland, and Yamaha, and Korg, and Shure, and Bogner, and Randall, and DiMarzio, and Microsoft, and Apple, and Coca Cola... and every freakin' branded product that we've ever bought and will continue to buy. Companies live or die by their marketing. If we didn't want to be owned by them, we might as well DIY our own stuff.

If only im as smart as u guys i'll DIY everything.The ony DIY i can do is tune my guitar w/o a tuner.The rest,fuhhgedabahdit

[inigo]

The POD has become a staple equipment in any professional recording environment,if u dont have one, then get into the freakin program napag iiwanan ka na  .

Hmm... much like how Pro-Tools and digital recording (in general) was criticized in its early years. Now, most studios can't live without it or something with similar functions.

[alroyT]

Hmm... much like how Pro-Tools and digital recording (in general) was criticized in its early years. Now, most studios can't live without it or something with similar functions.

yeah i remember dat/adat users dissing off the early PT.

[xjepoyx]

yeah i remember dat/adat users dissing off the early PT.

oo pards! ganyang katanda ka ng recording artist... oops sorry nadulas hehehe

[alroyT]

oo pards! ganyang katanda ka ng recording artist... oops sorry nadulas hehehe

tado ka talaga Jep,mas matanda ka pa sakin noh,anyway last bisita ko sa pinas 2 yrs ago may nakita pa ako adat sa abs-cbn studio.

ps i think mag sing edad lang tyo jep,ilan taon ka na ba,aminin

[xjepoyx]

hahaha 16 lang ako noh! di ba boss kit?

[alroyT]

hahaha 16 lang ako noh! di ba boss kit?

16?ang baba pala ng palit ngayon ng $ jan

[KitC]

hahaha 16 lang ako noh! di ba boss kit?

Noon yun... Nung 20:1 ang dollar.

[alroyT]

OT KitC may nagbigay sa akin ng Lexicon omega interface ok ba yun?USB sya at 4 inputs.Balak ko bumili ng ibang interface kaso eto libre nga,if its up ur par i'll use it kung hndi papadala ko nalang sa utol ko jan sa pinas.I need ur opinion.

[xjepoyx]

buti nga tumataas na naman ang dollars 46.8 na! hirap pag abroad ang client... dollars ang bayad eh pag tumaas ang piso kawawa kita ko


ayyy OT na pala... sowee hehehe

back to topic:

mura na ba yung POD na nasa classifieds? waaaaaaaaaaa GAS na naman

OT pa rin pala

[KitC]

OT KitC may nagbigay sa akin ng Lexicon omega interface ok ba yun?USB sya at 4 inputs.Balak ko bumili ng ibang interface kaso eto libre nga,if its up ur par i'll use it kung hndi papadala ko nalang sa utol ko jan sa pinas.I need ur opinion.

It's USB 1.1 and it has great preamps from what I've read, but since it IS usb 1.1, you'll be lucky to use all 4 inputs simultaneously... UNLESS it has hardware direct monitoring a la Tascam US-224 afaik.

Back to regular programming! (sorry I can't get online... work mode  )

[alroyT]

It's USB 1.1 and it has great preamps from what I've read, but since it IS usb 1.1, you'll be lucky to use all 4 inputs simultaneously... UNLESS it has hardware direct monitoring a la Tascam US-224 afaik.

Back to regular programming! (sorry I can't get online... work mode  )

Its off to the balikbayan box then,Thanks Kit

[skunkyfunk]

Hmm... much like how Pro-Tools and digital recording (in general) was criticized in its early years. Now, most studios can't live without it or something with similar functions.

And in the same light, some pros in Japan and Europe say Nuendo and Logic Pro can slay Protools, only that Protools was the most intuitive digital recording platform, which was easy from old farts to embrace when switching from analog to digital.  Nuendo and Logic Pro on the other hand, was kind of intimidating for most beginners in digital recordin   I can quote Phil O Keefe, writer for Music tech mag, "Protools is the Microsoft of recording". 

[skunkyfunk]

mura na ba yung POD na nasa classifieds? waaaaaaaaaaa GAS na naman

OT pa rin pala

Minsan iniisip ko, is 2nd hand market value an indicator of how excellent a product is?  Something I noticed about everything DIGITAL is that they are like cellphones.  They depreciate so quickly.  My first Lexicon Core2 interface cost me $500 and it had 4 friggin inputs and I couldn't use lightpipe options because there were no preamps that had those features then (at least that was what I noticed).  Dang!  Now you can get 8-input systems for much cheap.  I remember the days of the Echo cards when they were so expensive, and Midiman (now M-Audio) were virtually unknown in the digital recording field except for midi and keyboard interfaces.  Now if you look everywhere, you have option overload.  And the sad thing is, maybe 2 years from now your most-prized Firewire interface will have already sunken 3x its value. 

[skunkyfunk]

By your same reasoning, so does Fender... and Gibson, and Ibanez, and Roland, and Yamaha, and Korg, and Shure, and Bogner, and Randall, and DiMarzio, and Microsoft, and Apple, and Coca Cola... and every freakin' branded product that we've ever bought and will continue to buy. Companies live or die by their marketing. If we didn't want to be owned by them, we might as well DIY our own stuff.

Sir, Marketing is good.  In fact I think OVERMARKETING is the best way to gain appeal from a large group of people.  But how many good products out there are sleepers simply because the manufacturers cannot afford an endorser, or pay millions for ads?  Most of them end up in obscurity.  They cannot manufacture more units because they don't have the machinery to sell to more people.

The way I look at it, Line 6 benefits from great marketing strategies.  I just saw the ad for a POD saying "a lot of Grammy-winning albums have been recorded on a POD.." IMO, that is supposed to be common knowledge, because I never saw Fender, Marshall, Mesa Boogie, or even Shure use such a tagline as a marketing buzz. 

Sorry for the OT btw. 

[KitC]

Practically ANYTHING electronic depreciates to 50% of it's value as soon as you buy it. This is the way the market generally perceives it. More commonly, though, this is attributable to mass production items, and there is Moore's Law which sort of implies that anything electronic put out today will be obsolete in 18 months time. Add the fact that China is flooding the world with super cheap electronic gadgets and items that the entire market is in a glut of everything electronic which retains no value in a shorter time it takes for me to write this reply.

There are, and can be, a few exceptions. Vintage RCA, Shure and Neumann mics for one. Those much valued NOS tubes by RCA, Telefunken, Mullard...  But let's face it, much of our technology has PLANNED OBSOLESCENCE. Take computer technology... the introduction of a new socket already places your existing rig in jeopardy. Newer and faster processors appear within 6 months of you buying a completely new setup. Someone will always invent or innovate technology into something smaller, faster, and with more features. That is the nature of things until someone owns up and admits they've got aliens in their employ.

[KitC]

The way I look at it, Line 6 benefits from great marketing strategies.  I just saw the ad for a POD saying "a lot of Grammy-winning albums have been recorded on a POD.." IMO, that is supposed to be common knowledge, because I never saw Fender, Marshall, Mesa Boogie, or even Shure use such a tagline as a marketing buzz. 

Don't be so naive, skunk. At one time, they all probably did; Shure and Fender especially. Artist endorsements are another form of marketing buzz. Line6 is not alone with this. Your bias is, unfortunately, beginning to show.

[skunkyfunk]

Don't be so naive, skunk. At one time, they all probably did; Shure and Fender especially. Artist endorsements are another form of marketing buzz. Line6 is not alone with this. Your bias is, unfortunately, beginning to show.

Admittedly, I am still quite biased towards Line 6.  But not as bad as some 5 years ago.  I even looked at some oscilloscope signals posted on the net to see how the old Bean PODs performed against real miked up amps. 

Since you mentioned Shure, how many people use an Audix i5 over an SM57 for snare drums and guitar speakers?  I've heard from some experienced people that the i5 has a better tailored response than an SM57.  Only that, the SM57 is the industry standard in those applications.  If I were engineering for some producer, I would bet they would point me at the 57 first because had I offered him an i5, there would be more explaining needed (hence more studio time wasted). 

I hope my point gets across, but when something new AND GREAT comes out, the first problem is toppling a trend.  Line 6 was able to do that because I've seen, read, and *laughed at* their very old ads way back some 6 years ago.  My ears didn't tell me the soundclips sound right.  As an example, a friend of mine and a beloved luthier, gets a lot of ridiculous comments regarding Line 6.  Some client of his says, "Ang ganda ng AC30 pala!....Nasubukan ko kasi sa POD."  Whereas Arie, says, "I've tried a Vox AC30 reissue with Blue Alnico Speakers myself yet I cannot even claim it sounds like an original Vox."  Do you think Line 6 marketing did not have something to do with that?   Of course it did.  I saw how "brave" they were at making a lot of ridiculous tag lines to sell their products.  It almost made noobs think that owning a modeller is like owning a multitude of amps, for much less.

Anyway, what I've learned, at least, is that if people are happy with their tone, no matter how "sucky" it is for the engineer, tapos na ang usapan.