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Author Topic: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?  (Read 63226 times)

Offline pep14

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Re: Class A/Imitation Item Report Thread
« Reply #75 on: June 28, 2012, 12:22:04 PM »
Questions lang sirs. (Sorry newbie kasi). For us newbs to further understand which is fake or not, here's a list of sample situations. Please tell which is legit:

1. Gibson Les Paul ("Gibson" as indicated in the headstock) but labeled Class A by the seller: Y/N?
2. Tokai Les Paul (actual Tokai brand indicated in the headstock) but shape and make is obviously a copy or imitation: Y/N?
3. Is a Copy different from a Replica (i.e. given Tokai Les Pauls as an example): Y/N?
4. Does the term Imitation is also different from a Replica? Y/N?
5. If the guitar brand itself is licensed to do replicas or imitations of popular guitar shapes like the Strat or the Les Paul, are they allowed to be sold here in PM? Y/N?

I hope these questions make sense to you guys. Sorry, 'coz I'm no expert. Thanks!  :)

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Offline gunlak

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #76 on: June 28, 2012, 12:40:46 PM »
landslide. haha
kung gusto nila mag post ng counterfeits, sa sulit nalang or other ad sites.
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Offline rtf_axeman

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #77 on: June 28, 2012, 01:08:09 PM »
landslide. haha
kung gusto nila mag post ng counterfeits, sa sulit nalang or other ad sites.

+1

Offline qroon

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Re: Class A/Imitation Item Report Thread
« Reply #78 on: June 30, 2012, 12:30:52 AM »
Questions lang sirs. (Sorry newbie kasi). For us newbs to further understand which is fake or not, here's a list of sample situations. Please tell which is legit:

1. Gibson Les Paul ("Gibson" as indicated in the headstock) but labeled Class A by the seller: Y/N?
2. Tokai Les Paul (actual Tokai brand indicated in the headstock) but shape and make is obviously a copy or imitation: Y/N?
3. Is a Copy different from a Replica (i.e. given Tokai Les Pauls as an example): Y/N?
4. Does the term Imitation is also different from a Replica? Y/N?
5. If the guitar brand itself is licensed to do replicas or imitations of popular guitar shapes like the Strat or the Les Paul, are they allowed to be sold here in PM? Y/N?

I hope these questions make sense to you guys. Sorry, 'coz I'm no expert. Thanks!  :)

1. Definitely not allowed to be sold here.
2. Those are allowed as long as you don't change the decals.
3. An SX strat can be called an copy or imitation (same dimensions like the body shape and headstock but differently branded) but can be sold here. But the minute you slap a Fender decal on it, it'll not be allowed.
4. In musical instruments, replica are mostly fakes. They copy/imitate the looks up to the branding/decals.
5. See 2 and 3.

So, what are the things that are not allowed? The fake ones. Sellers may call their wares as imitation, class a, copy and replica but just the same if they're not real Fender/Gibson/Ibanez/any brand, they're fakes. Also, those copies with altered/replaced decals are not allowed.


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Offline vitek

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #79 on: July 01, 2012, 01:39:40 PM »



This shouldn't be allowed here...
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Offline smartassplayingdumb

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #80 on: July 01, 2012, 04:29:24 PM »
Okay, my thread seems to be getting locked every other day.

http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=244661.0

Please help out mods.

Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #81 on: July 01, 2012, 08:10:53 PM »
Okay, my thread seems to be getting locked every other day.

http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=244661.0

Please help out mods.

hmm.. try clarifying your post. I remember modifying your thread to specify the exact meaning of "PRS" with regard to your item. kasi if it's clear that it's technically not a "paul reed smith" redecal or misrepresentation of the term then as I mentioned before, it should be good since pasok siya sa "custom-made" wares. I'll try to talk with the GC mods to clarify kung bakit palagi na-lock yung thread mo. I'll unlock it again.

Offline zero44

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #82 on: July 05, 2012, 12:18:30 PM »
i voted yes,

imho, i think we should allow them to sell those fake but classified as "class A"/fake/copy, rather than not allowing them but in return they will sell it secretly as an original..

kawawa naman po yung makakabili na hindi alam i-classify yung fake sa legit..

unless someone will do legal actions para maayos yung mga victims ng mga ganitong transactions..

Offline siore

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #83 on: July 05, 2012, 12:51:12 PM »
Okay, my thread seems to be getting locked every other day.

http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=244661.0

Please help out mods.

Why and how is that NOT a fake?  You have a script thing going on at the headstock, the same bird species on the inlays, body shape, headstock shape, control routing, mention PRS, mention Custom 22, all in your ad!!  Suggest the mods take a hard and fast approach if they want to implement this rule, now that the initiative is there.

So now we can have luthier made fender, luthier made les paul copies?  Nasa wording lang?  Sorry bro, I think you know very well what you are selling fits the profile of what this philmusic initiative IS against.  You know it's NOT a PRS... you sell it on the appeal and illusion of a PRS.

EDIT:  I can see that the thread in question has been unlocked.  So that partly constitutes an agreement among philmusic mods?  At least the one who unlocked it?  What prevents the scrupulous sellers (not necessarily the owner of the fake PRS) from re-listing their wares using the same technical description and workarounds?
« Last Edit: July 05, 2012, 12:57:10 PM by siore »
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Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #84 on: July 06, 2012, 12:55:18 AM »
i voted yes,

imho, i think we should allow them to sell those fake but classified as "class A"/fake/copy, rather than not allowing them but in return they will sell it secretly as an original..

kawawa naman po yung makakabili na hindi alam i-classify yung fake sa legit..

unless someone will do legal actions para maayos yung mga victims ng mga ganitong transactions..

EDIT:

for those who voted yes in allowing counterfeit items to be sold here in PM, may I know your reasons as to why? not trying to judge you guys or anything, just want to hear your thoughts and justifications re this matter. thanks!

@zero44 - thanks for sharing your insights.

Why and how is that NOT a fake?  You have a script thing going on at the headstock, the same bird species on the inlays, body shape, headstock shape, control routing, mention PRS, mention Custom 22, all in your ad!!  Suggest the mods take a hard and fast approach if they want to implement this rule, now that the initiative is there.

So now we can have luthier made fender, luthier made les paul copies?  Nasa wording lang?  Sorry bro, I think you know very well what you are selling fits the profile of what this philmusic initiative IS against.  You know it's NOT a PRS... you sell it on the appeal and illusion of a PRS.

EDIT:  I can see that the thread in question has been unlocked.  So that partly constitutes an agreement among philmusic mods?  At least the one who unlocked it?  What prevents the scrupulous sellers (not necessarily the owner of the fake PRS) from re-listing their wares using the same technical description and workarounds?

I coordinated both with TS as well as the GC mods re this particular matter. I’ll post the details of the conversation first so that everybody’s aware of what’s happening:

the term "copy" or "custom" is too broad and general for that matter to be used when branding items for sale IMO. this is often where the gray area comes in. We could perhaps allow tailor-made stuff as long as it doesn't misrepresent a product or brand.

Let's set things straight:

*Counterfeits, Redecaled, Replicas, "Class A" items and the likes are not allowed.
*Tailor-made items are allowed as long as it's not re-decaled since it's a misrepresentation of the brand name. one can sell a guitar copied from a certain model as long as you keep it either "unbranded" or "customized".
*For people looking at buying or selling these kinds of items; as I mentioned, other sites allow or often cater to these. We won't allow people to post links to other sites as a workaround.

let's keep the ideas flowing guys! we need everybody's opinions and a deliberated-upon agreement so we could iron things out and implement things for the better. again, your opinions matter. Thanks! :mrgreen:

If that's the case, my custom-made PRS 22 doesn't actually have a "PRS" decal. It's Park S.H., or Song Hee (or something like that, can't remember to be honest), so I'm not in breach of any PM rules.

was it clarified in the first place? I understand the part that it was custom made, the reason why it was locked perhaps was the "PRS" tag IMO. now that it has been clarified then consider the thread unlocked. our apologies for the misunderstanding.

Okay, my thread seems to be getting locked every other day.

http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=244661.0

Please help out mods.

hmm.. try clarifying your post. I remember modifying your thread to specify the exact meaning of "PRS" with regard to your item. kasi if it's clear that it's technically not a "paul reed smith" redecal or misrepresentation of the term then as I mentioned before, it should be good since pasok siya sa "custom-made" wares. I'll try to talk with the GC mods to clarify kung bakit palagi na-lock yung thread mo. I'll unlock it again.

Here’s the conversation between me and toybitz:

guys, check this out:

http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=244661.0

as for the seller, it's technically a custom-made guitar and not a fake. the thread keeps getting locked though. comments? :?

title pa lang eh FSO PRS custom 22 copy agad...parang ang dating ad din nina ******* na Ibanez Jem copy....

preferably the title should read as:

FSO Park S.H. Custom 22

nakalagay pa sa details ng ad

"Custom-made PRS (Park S.H - Song Hee) SE Custom 22 Copy"

kind of misleading, why label it custom made PRS when its not PRS...

basta ang ilagay ay Park SH custom 22 kung baga Tokai Les Paul, or Ferandes Tele...huwag ng iquote ang original brand.

wala ng PRS, PRS.

So here goes the same question, what differentiates a custom copy vs. a fake copy? Kasi for me, if an item has been copied with a less than acceptable quality then labeled and marketed as the real deal, then that’s just plain wrong. Pero kapag nagpa-custom made ka ng item with the same exact specs, then I think it’s ok since you aimed naman for the quality and not because of the brand name per se. If you sell your custom wares then tag it as the real deal, then that's clearly item misrepresentation and copyright infringement. Pero if you sell it as a custom-made gear with the same exact specs minus the label, then you're considerably selling a one of a kind quality gear, and not just a "copy" so to speak. the point here is dapat wala kang niloloko or ginagamit na "brand name" per se when selling non-authentic items (by which custom wares are a part of, but of a different clause compared to fakes) since labag na yan sa laws of fair trade.. Ito yung sinasabi ko na gray area before, as I mentioned the term “copy” is too broad and general to be classified or chastised depending on any given situation. Mahirap naman pairalin ang martial law na kung hindi branded or authentic – “bawal”; Custom-made wares are the other half of the market na allowable kahit paano. Now, if some wise guy tries to pass off a fake as a legit or custom made "kuno", for sure mahuhuli agad yun. there's a thin line between fake copies and custom made copies - I trust you guys are more than knowledgeable to know the difference.

Going back sa initial concern re this particular post, I’ll talk again to TS re this matter so that proper clarifications could be made. medyo misleading nga naman yung wording kahit na we advised TS already to update it. Thanks!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 08:06:03 AM by Riff_6603 »

Offline smartassplayingdumb

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #85 on: July 06, 2012, 05:35:04 AM »
Why and how is that NOT a fake?  You have a script thing going on at the headstock, the same bird species on the inlays, body shape, headstock shape, control routing, mention PRS, mention Custom 22, all in your ad!!  Suggest the mods take a hard and fast approach if they want to implement this rule, now that the initiative is there.

So now we can have luthier made fender, luthier made les paul copies?  Nasa wording lang?  Sorry bro, I think you know very well what you are selling fits the profile of what this philmusic initiative IS against.  You know it's NOT a PRS... you sell it on the appeal and illusion of a PRS.

EDIT:  I can see that the thread in question has been unlocked.  So that partly constitutes an agreement among philmusic mods?  At least the one who unlocked it?  What prevents the scrupulous sellers (not necessarily the owner of the fake PRS) from re-listing their wares using the same technical description and workarounds?


It's not fake in the way an Elegee Custom 22 wouldn't be "fake".

Offline qroon

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #86 on: July 06, 2012, 08:27:59 AM »
Regarding luthiers making custom copies or custom ones. Here is a scenario, there are luthiers that will make exact copy, from materials to dimensions/cuts/shapes up to decals. Would that be allowed here? This would be another gray area right?


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Offline Rmansh

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #87 on: July 06, 2012, 09:21:43 AM »
This got me thinking.  What about shred head-madbean pcb issue and some pedal clones - plugs - wampler? Jason wilding clearly voiced his opinion back then, he posted here in pm na.

What about Tom Bartlett? Custom builds highly illegal Gibson head stocks, may thread pa sya sa mlp forum. He is aware of it that's why he blurs the headstock pics, but still he do custom orders.
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Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #88 on: July 06, 2012, 09:47:52 AM »
Regarding luthiers making custom copies or custom ones. Here is a scenario, there are luthiers that will make exact copy, from materials to dimensions/cuts/shapes up to decals. Would that be allowed here? This would be another gray area right?

This got me thinking.  What about shred head-madbean pcb issue and some pedal clones - plugs - wampler? Jason wilding clearly voiced his opinion back then, he posted here in pm na.

What about Tom Bartlett? Custom builds highly illegal Gibson head stocks, may thread pa sya sa mlp forum. He is aware of it that's why he blurs the headstock pics, but still he do custom orders.

for custom gears, it's fine as long as hindi siya redecaled; copyright infringement na kasi yun. you had it custom made kasi gusto mo yung look, yung sound, yung quality and all that jazz. pero once na sinalpakan mo na ng decal ng isang known brand yan, ibang usapan na yan. it's not like the brand itself would affect the sound, playability or performance of your custom gear. the purpose of someone redecaling an item is to boost its "so called" value and hype - misrepresentation na kapag ganyan. for example: if someone would say his/her custom gear is modeled after a gibson, looks and sounds like one - then congratulations on a successful custom made "copy". pero if that someone redecals it as a gibson, then that's just plain wrong since you're marketing something that isn't authentic, hence the thin line between customs and fakes.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2012, 09:13:58 PM by Riff_6603 »

Offline Rmansh

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #89 on: July 06, 2012, 10:36:06 AM »
i see. very specific pala
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Offline ianhisoka47

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #90 on: July 07, 2012, 11:11:21 PM »
So ganito po ang point.

Kapag iba ang tatak. Then it is a copy.

Kapag ang tatak ay "Brand" pero hindi naman talaga "Brand" ang tatak. Then it is a Fake.

Fake = Counterfeit = Deception = Illegal.

Offline boxxed

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #91 on: July 11, 2012, 12:04:35 PM »
the purpose of someone redecaling an item is to boost its "so called" value and hype - misrepresentation na kapag ganyan.

Sorry I had to comment again. Hear me out on this one. So if the spirit of this rule is to prevent the "seller" from jacking up the value of his/her guitar by redecalling then one could still still sell the redecalled guitar by accurately telling the original specs of the guitar without even mentioning the decal (such as the PRS copy above). That way he does not give an incorrect representation of the product he sells.
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Offline siore

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #92 on: July 11, 2012, 03:51:47 PM »
Sorry I had to comment again. Hear me out on this one. So if the spirit of this rule is to prevent the "seller" from jacking up the value of his/her guitar by redecalling then one could still still sell the redecalled guitar by accurately telling the original specs of the guitar without even mentioning the decal (such as the PRS copy above). That way he does not give an incorrect representation of the product he sells.

+1

And he doesn't even have to show the headstock. :x Pero siguro, it would still boil down to the buyer agreeing to a purchase without being given info on the headstock or decal.  Would you buy, kung sakali?  Imagine meeting up and being told, "Oh btw bro, may fender decal nga pala."  Di na kasalanan ng classifieds yun.

But I agree, masyado madali to circumvent this rule. If one wants to sell replicas /fakes /class A, he still ways to sell it here.  Im still on the position some hard lines need to be drawn.  Originally, I'm really skeptical this type of ruling can be implemented, because of the grey areas and the need for [dedicated] expert assessment.
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Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #93 on: July 11, 2012, 10:41:01 PM »
Sorry I had to comment again. Hear me out on this one. So if the spirit of this rule is to prevent the "seller" from jacking up the value of his/her guitar by redecalling then one could still still sell the redecalled guitar by accurately telling the original specs of the guitar without even mentioning the decal (such as the PRS copy above). That way he does not give an incorrect representation of the product he sells.

+1

And he doesn't even have to show the headstock. :x Pero siguro, it would still boil down to the buyer agreeing to a purchase without being given info on the headstock or decal.  Would you buy, kung sakali?  Imagine meeting up and being told, "Oh btw bro, may fender decal nga pala."  Di na kasalanan ng classifieds yun.

But I agree, masyado madali to circumvent this rule. If one wants to sell replicas /fakes /class A, he still ways to sell it here.  Im still on the position some hard lines need to be drawn.  Originally, I'm really skeptical this type of ruling can be implemented, because of the grey areas and the need for [dedicated] expert assessment.

the decal would indeed boost the "so-called" value of an item, lalo na sa mga naive noobs. but the real spirit of the rule is to avoid counterfeit trade, redecaling an item is a violation - copyright infringement to be exact. from there on, it would all come down to item quality, trust between trading parties and the site hosting it, so on and so forth. Though I don't remember seeing an actual PRS decal dun sa item, TS did clarified as to what the actual brand stands for; though the specs are built to match those of a PRS which is pasok naman sa custom built category na allowable naman sa classifieds. already talked to TS and toybitz na din as to what needs to be done. I do agree though that we have to set some hard lines "ika nga" when implementing such a complicated rule.

It's good that you guys brought up an example of a certain workaround, perhaps we could require sellers to show their headstocks as well as videos & soundclips on top of the usual pics and item description para alam ng buyer kung ano ba talaga yung bibilhin niya na item since rarely could items be tested out in the open when doing meetups. kung may mandadaya man sa soundclips etc. then we could reprimand the seller for falsifying required information. whatchutink?

btw, pwede niyo ba ako bigyan ng scenarios or gray areas para malutas natin lahat ito? as the old adage goes - "2 heads are better than 1", mas madali kung lahat mag-pitch in para makapag-set tayo ng agreed upon ruling amongst all forumites concerned. thanks guys!

Offline qroon

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #94 on: July 11, 2012, 11:51:56 PM »
One scenario. What if I had a respectable luthier build a Les Paul copy for me, complete with Gibson decal. But his custom nuild includes certification from the luthier. Will I be allowed to sell it here?


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Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #95 on: July 12, 2012, 12:30:35 AM »
One scenario. What if I had a respectable luthier build a Les Paul copy for me, complete with Gibson decal. But his custom nuild includes certification from the luthier. Will I be allowed to sell it here?

certification from the company itself to use their name on a custom build? kasi honestly I've never heard of a custom built that came with an authorized decal before, unless you have the papers to prove it siguro. sorry if I misunderstood your statement. :?

Offline qroon

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2012, 12:55:03 AM »
certification from the company itself to use their name on a custom build? kasi honestly I've never heard of a custom built that came with an authorized decal before, unless you have the papers to prove it siguro. sorry if I misunderstood your statement. :?

Certification from the luthier that it's his work. And the decals are there to recreate the '59 LP look.


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Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifieds?
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2012, 02:06:52 AM »
Certification from the luthier that it's his work. And the decals are there to recreate the '59 LP look.

oh I see. well then nope. best to leave it without decals to avoid any infringement issues.

EDIT:
post edited as pointed out in said conversation (original post format still quoted):
http://talk.philmusic.com/index.php?topic=265359.msg3709243#msg3709243
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 10:06:44 PM by Riff_6603 »

Offline horge

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifed?
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2012, 05:40:49 AM »
oh I see. well then nope. best to leave it without decals to avoid any infringement issues.
you could have one created if it's for personal indulgence, but when you sell it - that's where the issue would arise.

Hang on, there.   :-P

Just as I posted earlier on this thread:
The minute you apply someone else's trademark to merchandise,
WITHOUT the trademark owner's consent, you've created a fake.

If selling fakes on GC is to be banned, we have to be clear on the
above principle: as clear as the law on trademarks already is.

A brand's cachet and marketability, and thus the manufacturer's profit, can
be harmed by the unauthorized appearance of a trademark on articles of
shoddy quality --the manufacturer alone determines what's good enough,
to earn the right to bear its trademark/brand. Kaya nga merong licensing.
No matter how renowned a luthier, if he hasn't a license to apply someone
else's registered trademark/brand, he can't do so legally. Fake 'yun, even
if it's for just one customer.

Same goes for an individual faking a guitar via decal "for their own use",
especially if they post an image online --kasi, again, it publicly harms the
cachet/marketability of the trademark/brand, as described above.

Some guitar fora ban images of illegally-branded guitars, period.
It doesn't matter whether the guitars are for sale or not, because said
fora wish to avoid any appearance of encouraging trademark violations,
which have nothing to do with whether the article is for sale or not:

A brand illegally-applied is made illegal by mere application, not by reselling
an article so-branded.
[1]

This has bearing on what GC actually intends to accomplish with any new
"branding" rule. See below:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

So if the spirit of this rule is to prevent the "seller" from jacking up the value of his/her guitar by redecalling then one could still still sell the redecalled guitar by accurately telling the original specs of the guitar without even mentioning the decal (such as the PRS copy above). That way he does not give an incorrect representation of the product he sells.

I don't think that's the "spirit", but I may be wrong.

At minimum, the spirit of GC's emerging "rule", is to save GC harmless from
any legal exposure wrt trademark violations; to wit, serving as a venue for
the selling of fake goods. To that minimal extent, for so long as GC wasn't
aware that any goods sold are/were fake (by dint of a seller excluding any
images of illegal branding), GC's legally in the clear. For now.

At maximum, the rule can aim to proactively-prevent trademark violations
within GC's online turf, as "the right thing to do". This might only be done by
REQUIRING all sellers to show images of their merchandise, showing where
brands/decals normally appear. This might be very difficult to implement, as
it would likely lead to much heavier bandwidth consumption, thus increased
forum costs and retarded server performance, which latter is remedied only
at greater cost. If GC owners are willing to eat said cost increases, as well
as a drop in Classified's postings, then they can require sellers (I'd hesitate
to label them more formally as 'vendors') to post said 'branding' images.

GC may be better off with a minimal "don't ask, don't tell" stance: if a seller
reveals trademark violations, or if GC members ferret it out and report it to
GC staff, then GC must act; but GC may not be able to afford REQUIRING all
sellers to post "branding" images and/or videos.

JM2.



[1] Brand-owners (the manufacturers) are very tolerant of alterations made to
 their merchandise (witness the healthy modification market), but have always
 jealously guarded their trademarks. As major manufacturers become publicly
 owned, this jealousy will only intensify: shareholders often brook nothing that
 harms company profits (thence share price and dividends).
« Last Edit: July 12, 2012, 06:31:52 AM by horge »

Offline Riff_6603

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Re: Should we allow counterfeit items to be sold in the classifed?
« Reply #99 on: July 12, 2012, 10:02:02 PM »
oh I see. well then nope. best to leave it without decals to avoid any infringement issues. you could have one created if it's for personal indulgence, but when you sell it - that's where the issue would arise.
Hang on, there.   :-P

Just as I posted earlier on this thread:
A brand's cachet and marketability, and thus the manufacturer's profit, can
be harmed by the unauthorized appearance of a trademark on articles of
shoddy quality --the manufacturer alone determines what's good enough,
to earn the right to bear its trademark/brand. Kaya nga merong licensing.
No matter how renowned a luthier, if he hasn't a license to apply someone
else's registered trademark/brand, he can't do so legally. Fake 'yun, even
if it's for just one customer.

Same goes for an individual faking a guitar via decal "for their own use",
especially if they post an image online --kasi, again, it publicly harms the
cachet/marketability of the trademark/brand, as described above.

Some guitar fora ban images of illegally-branded guitars, period.
It doesn't matter whether the guitars are for sale or not, because said
fora wish to avoid any appearance of encouraging trademark violations,
which have nothing to do with whether the article is for sale or not:

A brand illegally-applied is made illegal by mere application, not by reselling
an article so-branded.
[1]

This has bearing on what GC actually intends to accomplish with any new
"branding" rule. See below:

Noted. My apologies re said statement. So the rule should encompass all, even though the rule itself was specifically intended for local implementation. this trait should nip things at the bud; idealistic though not realistic in a larger sense (as it is outside of PM's scope). but then again, If one would start, some would follow. at least we could make a difference. thanks for pointing it out.

I don't think that's the "spirit", but I may be wrong.

At minimum, the spirit of GC's emerging "rule", is to save GC harmless from
any legal exposure wrt trademark violations; to wit, serving as a venue for
the selling of fake goods. To that minimal extent, for so long as GC wasn't
aware that any goods sold are/were fake (by dint of a seller excluding any
images of illegal branding), GC's legally in the clear. For now.

At maximum, the rule can aim to proactively-prevent trademark violations within GC's online turf, as "the right thing to do". This might only be done by REQUIRING all sellers to show images of their merchandise, showing where brands/decals normally appear. This might be very difficult to implement, as
it would likely lead to much heavier bandwidth consumption, thus increased
forum costs and retarded server performance, which latter is remedied only
at greater cost. If GC owners are willing to eat said cost increases, as well
as a drop in Classified's postings, then they can require sellers (I'd hesitate
to label them more formally as 'vendors') to post said 'branding' images.

GC may be better off with a minimal "don't ask, don't tell" stance: if a seller
reveals trademark violations, or if GC members ferret it out and report it to
GC staff, then GC must act; but GC may not be able to afford REQUIRING all
sellers to post "branding" images and/or videos.

JM2.

[1] Brand-owners (the manufacturers) are very tolerant of alterations made to
 their merchandise (witness the healthy modification market), but have always
 jealously guarded their trademarks. As major manufacturers become publicly
 owned, this jealousy will only intensify: shareholders often brook nothing that
 harms company profits (thence share price and dividends).

right on. the spirit itself though is in response to PM members plea to be protected from this form of unjust trade (refer to example: toybitz's scenario) and not specifically to GC only, but I do get the point. it would be easy if we put ourselves on a "don't ask - don't sell stance", but such is not always applicable in general. but as problems arise, so would solutions.

re bandwidth vs seller requirement to post images re brand authenticity, we could implement a stern rule re specific image size and resolution so as to avoid larger server consumption. majority of the locals already do so, we just have to tweak things a bit more to make it work on a larger implementable scale.