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Author Topic: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang  (Read 41609 times)

Offline qroon

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #75 on: August 04, 2015, 10:31:18 AM »
Alex, you can use the bold or italic tag to highlight your reply.


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Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #76 on: August 04, 2015, 10:35:44 AM »
You forgot to mention that guitar amp speakers cannot reproduce these harmonic frequencies. Even if I play an electric guitar that can produce harmonic frequencies, I cannot play it through the amp and would mostly be drowned by the suported frequencies.

As an example, the frequency range for a Celestion Vintage 30 is 70-5000Hz.

Source:
http://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/


Even most electric guitar pickups are not full range.

Yeah but the speaker has to go into a cabinet.  The speaker interacting with the cabinet may produce the lower frequencies that the driver does not.  When a Wilson Audio speaker produces those low frequencies its because of the total design.

Offline royc

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Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #77 on: August 04, 2015, 10:44:04 AM »
Yeah but the speaker has to go into a cabinet.  The speaker interacting with the cabinet may produce the lower frequencies that the driver does not.  When a Wilson Audio speaker produces those low frequencies its because of the total design.

Is there a cabinet design that can reproduce the harmonic frequencies supposedly coming from your electric guitar? I believe your statement refers to frequencies produced by a cabinet, not an electric guitar.

Plywood is less resonant than solid wood. That means a pine cabinet adds texture to the resulting sound, while a birch ply may not.

The added bass is also common on closed back cabs. Ported cabs also results in better bass.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 11:04:49 AM by royc »

Offline Ben Tsing Co

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #78 on: August 04, 2015, 10:59:31 AM »
This thread has piqued my interests  :nosebleed:
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Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #79 on: August 04, 2015, 11:02:14 AM »
Is there a cabinet design that can reproduce the harmonic frequencies supposedly coming from your electric guitar? I believe your statement refers to frequencies produced by a cabinet, not an electric guitar.

Please clarify your statement...

I was just referring to your assertion that a Vintage 30 will produce a limited bandwidth.  What I am just saying is that you do NOT play your Vintage 30 suspended in mid air.  It is actually loaded into a cabinet, and how you load it also affects frequency response/bandwidth.
So, a lot of lower frequencies which are overtones of the fundamental are lower than the 70Hz produced by the Vintage 30.  Thats why I love my Mills Acoustics cabinets because I feel it is the best match to a Vintage 30.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 11:05:35 AM by firemodel55 »


Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #80 on: August 04, 2015, 11:07:33 AM »
I had the pleasure to test one of only two Mesa Boogies in the world made of SOLID KOA.  Ang tigas ng tunog.  Mas resonant pa ang birch ply ng Mills Acoustics ko.  Goes to show you it Depends.

Offline royc

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Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #81 on: August 04, 2015, 11:08:57 AM »
Please clarify your statement...

I was just referring to your assertion that a Vintage 30 will produce a limited bandwidth.  What I am just saying is that you do NOT play your Vintage 30 suspend in mid air.  It is actually loaded into a cabinet, and how you load it also affects frequency response/bandwidth.
So, a lot of lower frequencies which are overtones of the fundamental are lower than the 70Hz produced by the Vintage 30.  Thats why I love my Mills Acoustics cabinets because I feel it is the best match to a Vintage 30.

My responses, until your cabinet comment, were limited to tones produced by electric guitars (except for the signal chain explanation). I believe the original post was an answer to my question on feeling the tone from the electric guitar vs hearing it. I responded accordingly.

We have no argument on cabinet design as we both understand its concepts and share the same belief.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 11:15:26 AM by royc »

Offline guitarbrat

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #82 on: August 04, 2015, 04:21:37 PM »
Nabubuhay tong philmusic pag nag i istart ng thread tong si firemodel.  :-D

Offline royc

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Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #83 on: August 04, 2015, 05:02:33 PM »
(Its a new term in itself.  So I cannot explain it in common terms.  I have defined tone as timbre.  With regards to playability -- for me thats a function of set up.)

May I know who created the new term hiyaw and who decides if a guitar has hiyaw?

Timbre is normally used to differentiate the tonal characteristics of different instruments. I prefer to use the simpler term tone, but that is just me. Anyway, we know that we are referring to the same thing when we say tone/timbre.

Defining playability as a function of a set up is good. At least we won't argue on playability when discussing about tone or timbre.

(Both my Expensive and Not so Expensive Guitars have tone (timbre) plus hiyaw.  I am NOT a collector.  I consider myself a passionate hobbyist of great electric guitar tone.  I have nothing against working musicians with working man guitars.  But... maybe they can also learn something from me.)   

I agree that you are passionate with your hobby and I admire that you let others try your gears. I just suggest that you express your opinions without offending local musicians, guitar techs, and luthiers sometimes.

(Yes.  Ears can hear tone.  It can also hear a bullhorn or car horn but the bullhorn will not connect to you and your feelings because it does not have Hiyaw. My 15 guitars are not all made of Aged Wood only a few are.  And thats my point, you don't need aged wood to get Hiyaw. Hiyaw is not limited to vibration.  Even a pinch harmonic has a vibration.)

It is amusing to note that one of those who believe in hiyaw talks about guitar vibration when I asked how he can feel, instead of hear, tone. It seems some of those who believe in hiyaw do not fully understand what is hiyaw.

(Hiyaw is different from a Greco Lp with 57 Classic pups on a cranked Blues Junior.  A Greco LP with 57 classics pups that has hiyaw on a cranked Blues Junior will still sound different and more responsive and toneful.)

I used the Greco as an example of using feeling in addition to hearing. I did not say there was hiyaw. BTW how can you tell that my setup has no hiyaw without hearing it?

(As I pointed out earlier, even without proper set up; a guitar with Hiyaw will have it. A guitar either has it or it does not.  A guitar without hiyaw cannot be given hiyaw by any tech or luthier.)

Interesting. So a guitar with very high action, bowed neck, dead frets, and bad intonation can still have hiyaw?

(When I discuss hiyaw, it is not meant to address beginners.  It is meant to address guitarist who are really into the instrument and want the best for themselves.  Eh Kung Anne Curtiss lang iyan, it will be a waste of my time.)

There are beginners who want the best for themselves :-)


Nabubuhay tong philmusic pag nag i istart ng thread tong si firemodel.  :-D

A healthy exchange of opinion is good from time to time :-)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 06:01:52 AM by royc »

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #84 on: August 04, 2015, 08:33:56 PM »
May I know who created the new term hiyaw and who decides if a guitar has hiyaw?

(My friend Arie Hipolito introduced in to me in the mid-late 90s.  Since he serviced so many guitars (thousands since the 90s, he noticed certain guitars had this hiyaw property.)


I agree that you are passionate with your hobby and I admire that you let others try your gears. I just suggest that you express your opinions without offending local musicians, guitar techs, and luthiers sometimes.

(Well if they are offended they are either doing something wrong OR they are not exposed enough to realize what I am saying.)

It is amusing to note that one of those who believe in hiyaw talks about guitar vibration when I asked how he can feel, instead of hear, tone. It seems some of those who believe in hiyaw do not fully understand what is hiyaw.

(Again, as I said before there is a feel component to it that inexplicable.  And I cannot blaim the others if words are IMPERFECT at describing the reality of Hiyaw.  Its the nature of the beast.)


I used the Greco as an example of using feeling in addition to hearing. I did not say there was hiyaw. BTW how can you tell that my setup has no hiyaw without hearing it?

( What I meant is that IF your guitar had hiyaw it would sound better then without.  I did not claim to have already assessed your Greco as having it or not.)

Interesting. So a guitar with very high action, bowed neck, dead frets, and bad intonation can still have hiyaw?

(Yes.)

As a beginner, I was lucky enough to get a real good deal on a one-off DW collector series but there are very few people like me I guess.  :-)

Offline CeL1916

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #85 on: August 05, 2015, 01:03:57 AM »

I agree that you are passionate with your hobby and I admire that you let others try your gears. I just suggest that you express your opinions without offending local musicians, guitar techs, and luthiers sometimes.

(Well if they are offended they are either doing something wrong OR they are not exposed enough to realize what I am saying.)


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Offline rye715

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #86 on: August 05, 2015, 05:11:13 AM »
Puro hiyaw ang binabandila pero wala namang maprove na ginawang music or album or piyesa man lang featuring your "hiyaw". Puro lang hiyaw,  hanggang hiyaw lang.

Sorry, but until you can post something here that you created about your hiyawish instrument, your arguments don't prove anything.

Post a video and lets hear and see you prove.

That's my dare, that's my challenge.
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Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #87 on: August 05, 2015, 06:48:37 AM »
Puro hiyaw ang binabandila pero wala namang maprove na ginawang music or album or piyesa man lang featuring your "hiyaw". Puro lang hiyaw,  hanggang hiyaw lang.

(Ok, so ikaw rin may album na rin Rye?  I am talking about hiyaw and not recording contracts.)

Sorry, but until you can post something here that you created about your hiyawish instrument, your arguments don't prove anything.

(I think my message is that Hiyaw exists on itself with or without my post.  And what I am saying is that Hiyaw is the definitive indicator that determines whether a guitar has mojo or not.  Its not about you, but rather its about how specific pieces of wood when joined together produce magical guitars.)

Post a video and lets hear and see you prove.

(Hahaha.  Video na nga ang kailangan mo. Will you fund the production?  All you have to do is come over to hear my sucky Charvel versus my other guitars.)

That's my dare, that's my challenge.

(Hangang youtube ka na lang yata Rye.  There's more to life then videos.  And your dare just shows one thing to me, kulang na kulang ka sa exposure sa magandang equipment.)

Alam mo Rye?  Ikaw na nga ang nagsabi na walang akong recording, tapos gusto mo pa ako mag produce ng recording ng Hiyaw?  So how can I ever CONFIDENTLY produce a CONVINCING recording of Hiyaw kung sasabihin mo lang sa akin na wala akong recording?

Yet gusto mo na ako mag produce agad ng video?  Don't you see your LOGIC problem.  You are asking someone to produce a video when in the first place you stated first and foremost na wala akong K dahil wala akong recording.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 08:04:50 AM by firemodel55 »

Offline randymarsh

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #88 on: August 05, 2015, 06:49:27 AM »
Puro hiyaw ang binabandila pero wala namang maprove na ginawang music or album or piyesa man lang featuring your "hiyaw". Puro lang hiyaw,  hanggang hiyaw lang.

Sorry, but until you can post something here that you created about your hiyawish instrument, your arguments don't prove anything.

Post a video and lets hear and see you prove.

That's my dare, that's my challenge.

Unfortunately this will never happen again. Someone already posted a video of him demonstrating the "HIYAW" phenomenon and got super trolled. 
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Offline royc

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #89 on: August 05, 2015, 09:09:14 AM »
Unfortunately this will never happen again. Someone already posted a video of him demonstrating the "HIYAW" phenomenon and got super trolled.

It does not have to be him playing the guitar coz we just want to hear the hiyaw. He can lend his best guitar to a band for a recording session, probably one of the guitarists who has tried his guitars and convinced there was hiyaw.

Unfortunately, it was stated here that hiyaw cannot be heard on recording. It can only be experienced by going to his place and playing his guitar. At least that is how I understand it.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 09:13:44 AM by royc »

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #90 on: August 05, 2015, 09:11:41 AM »
It does not have to be him playing the guitar coz we just want to hear the hiyaw. He can lend his best guitar to a band for a recording session, probably one of the guitarists who has tried his guitars and convinced there was hiyaw.

Unfortunately, it was stated here that hiyaw cannot be heard on recording. It can only be experienced by going to his place and playing his guitar. At least that is how I understand it.

As I said, part of it is to be felt.

Offline kawal

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #91 on: August 05, 2015, 10:51:19 AM »
alex, can you post a photo of your custom tele here as well as the specs? interesado rin ako dun sa mga kahoy nya. i personally have experience dealing with wood.
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Offline chipsdelight

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #92 on: August 05, 2015, 03:15:08 PM »
Unfortunately this will never happen again. Someone already posted a video of him demonstrating the "HIYAW" phenomenon and got super trolled.
Yan ba sir yung demo sa PRS? Haha

Offline kaloyski

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #93 on: August 05, 2015, 03:31:13 PM »
Question though, what is "hiyaw" in english?

Anyway. I kinda agree to both sides. While "hiyaw" may be present, the way the concept is introduced is kinda blurry. You really can't get away convincing people just by saying "part of it is to be felt." This is the internet. You communicate through text, images, and sounds. You're gonna have a hard time convincing people if you can't send "feel" over the internet.

Offline rye715

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #94 on: August 05, 2015, 05:12:16 PM »
As I said, part of it is to be felt.

If it is to be felt, then "hiyaw" is SUBJECTIVE in nature.

If something is subjective in nature, why do you need to prove it as something UNIVERSAL (as suggested by your thread title)?

It's like saying "That is a great painting, I understood it, because I felt it, so it must be the same for all".
Mind you, not all can see past through Picasso's or Gogh's paintings......and we're just talking about art (which is as subjective as music itself).

Basing once's claim on that something is absolute or universal on the basis of "how it feels" is dangerous, and at the same time,
laughably insulting to us who always have the appetite to voice our own opinions to the point of death.






"Musicians are, in a sense, able to manipulate energy in the form of sound. We are able to understand the nature of sound and mold it to our liking. Among other kinds of professions, we are the ones who can wield energy in one of its purest forms."

Offline rye715

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #95 on: August 05, 2015, 05:18:42 PM »
Alam mo Rye?  Ikaw na nga ang nagsabi na walang akong recording, tapos gusto mo pa ako mag produce ng recording ng Hiyaw?  So how can I ever CONFIDENTLY produce a CONVINCING recording of Hiyaw kung sasabihin mo lang sa akin na wala akong recording?

Yet gusto mo na ako mag produce agad ng video?  Don't you see your LOGIC problem.  You are asking someone to produce a video when in the first place you stated first and foremost na wala akong K dahil wala akong recording.

Alam mo firemodel, instead of making excuses, you could spent your time recording the best HIYAW video you can come up with and show it.
You claimed that great guitar tone is universal (even though it has been already argued that is subjective) , then support your claim.
You have the burden to prove it because you claimed it.


As of this writing, there's no video from you, none whatsoever.

Only excuses...


...and excuses. (sigh)


Typical.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 05:22:24 PM by rye715 »
"Musicians are, in a sense, able to manipulate energy in the form of sound. We are able to understand the nature of sound and mold it to our liking. Among other kinds of professions, we are the ones who can wield energy in one of its purest forms."

Offline ios

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #96 on: August 05, 2015, 05:33:49 PM »
I really enjoy this thread and I do believe that there are exceptionally good and bad sounding guitars out there. Sir Firemodel55 really knows his stuff and its nice of him to share his thoughts.

But if HIYAW can't be heard or felt over youtube or even audio CD's then I personally don't think its a big deal. In live situations, probably mostly gearheads will notice it.

Of course every musician's goal is to achieve the best tone possible but not having hiyaw isn't worth losing sleep over.


Offline sonicassault

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #97 on: August 05, 2015, 05:45:29 PM »
I don't even get why there is a debate on whether hiyaw exists or not. I think it's just like food. May food na may "hiyaw" dahil sa uri ng ingredients meron ito (say, locally sourced organic whatever = superior tonewood and materials) at sa nagluluto nito (Michelin starred chef = luthier) at sa pagkaluto nito (technique = craftsmanship). Meron din namang food na may "hiyaw" kahit hindi superior lahat ng aspects nito dahil sa quality ng total mix ng mga elements sa pagbuo ng pagkain (think your grandma's home cooking).

Is it qualitative? Of course.
Is it quantitative? Definitely not (and this is why the debate even exists). Give the exact same grilled chicken ingredients and exact same recipe and technique to a home cook and Bobby Flay and I can guarantee that the Bobby Flay  will have the grilled chicken with"hiyaw."
Is it universal? Yes, but it takes people who can discern the quality, similar to how chefs can distinguish fresh shrimp from frozen while ordinary people cannot. These chefs have experienced these in person, similar to how firemodel claims you should go to his place and check his stuff.
Can you show it through the internet? I don't think so. Similar to how I have followed an Alton Brown cookie recipe to the letter, including the exact weights, grade of flour and butter-sugar ratio and cook and rest times and whatnot, but it barely looked like the one in the picture and obviously didn't have the expected texture.

The point is, there's no reason to debate whether hiyaw exists or not, and firemodel trying to prove it through videos or records won't do anything to back up his claims. You both have to be there with your guitars and his guitars and use the same amps and cables and rooms. Then only can you judge if you think hiyaw exists or not.

IMO you can only start debating about the existence of hiyaw if you have played both non-hiyaw guitars (which is the default case) and guitars that are claimed to possess hiyaw.

End of story.

(FWIW I think hiyaw may exist, but only because the same concept of "universal exceptional quality" exists in other non-quantifiable aspects or disciplines, like the aforementioned food example. I can't say I believe in it yet though, because I haven't even had the chance to play better guitars through capable equipment)

P.S. as a recording enthusiast I also agree with firemodel that hiyaw, if it exists, cannot be captured by recording, as recordings are inherently "lossy" and highly dependent on the character of the microphone, preamps, A/D converters, sampling frequency, mic placement, etc. (ask a recording engineer what half an inch does to sound).
« Last Edit: August 05, 2015, 06:19:32 PM by sonicassault »
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Offline gandydancer123

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #98 on: August 05, 2015, 06:05:48 PM »
for me, I believe in Hiyaw...

no matter what level mo mafeel..if a guitar speaks to you..that first strum, or pick...alam mo na everything is right sa instrument na yun...maaring, hindi ngayon, after a few years pa mafeel.. parang yung medyo marketing na sinabi ni John mayer sa TBO prototype niya..yung una niyang nakuha di daw niya feel..nilgay pa nga dw niya sa ref...then eventually lumabas yung hiyaw...

its a feel I think...and its between the guitar and the guitarist..yung connection na yun..parang yung life cord sa Avatar..



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Offline david_leyson

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Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #99 on: August 05, 2015, 06:37:03 PM »
As I see things here, and as explained, argued and debated upon, "HIYAW" as it exists, will not be heard audibly in recording and everything not unless you yourself played an instrument with "HIYAW", tama ba sir fm55? Correct if i'm wrong, the way I see it, "HIYAW" gives the benefit of it only to the one who plays, thus the player and does not contribute to the overall sound output of everything via recording, listeners and audiophiles wouldn't recognize if the recorded instrument has "HIYAW" or not. to sum it up, HIYAW will only be present on the players side while the audience side will never have it not until they get to be the player playing the instrument with HIYAW
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