hulika

Author Topic: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout  (Read 19369 times)

Offline skunkyfunk

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« on: July 02, 2007, 03:11:35 PM »
(In order to avoid any biases, I decided to write this thread with all involved entities as anonymous.)


Here we have THREE (3) different masters of the same song.  The original 2-bus mix was in 24-bit/44.1KHz in wav format. , UNPEAKED (max was -3DBFS), no added EQ or compression to the final mix.

TWO of which were mastered by the same person in different fashions, and the other version was mastered by the other.  All of the masters were cut at exactly 3:00 due to piracy issues.  Unfortunately, everything here is in 256kbps mp3 format as you don't wanna download 80+Megs of each wav, right?  (can be an issue, but hey I want this test to be available to anyone).

LINKS:

MASTER 1
MASTER 2
MASTER 3



Once you've downloaded, please answer these questions:

1.  Which Master did you like most?  Why?
2.  Which Master did you like least?  Why?
3.  Which two files were mastered by the same person?  (Sample Answer:  Mix#2 and Mix#3 were done by the same person)
4.  Which of the 3 masters do you think were done in a PROFESSIONAL mastering outfit? (Hint: the 3 masters were rendered from 2 different locations, one location had more expensive equipment than the other.)

There are really no correct answers to this test because as always, different tastes make different judgments.  Oh even the listening environment matters too!

Lend me your ears!  :mrgreen:
« Last Edit: July 09, 2007, 12:18:40 PM by skunkyfunk »

Offline starfugger

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2007, 06:54:13 PM »
skunk, i just downloaded master1 so no comparisons yet.  but i really must say, the vocals sound a tad like nirvana!  :-D
FOR RENT: Canon 550D, Canon 60D, Glidecam (Machinist), Toribio Slider EX with a pair of tripods for mounting, 2 1000W Lights with 9ft stands, Zoom H4, Rode Video Mic, Portable LED Lights 09154574744

Offline IncX

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2007, 11:16:08 PM »
THESE are notes... dont pay much attention to them :)


*master 1:

guitar intro sound is nice.

bass sound is boomy, probably lacks mids. i think there are also parts in the song where i would make it cut better (the one with the "you run to me" part lyric.

i dont like the snare sound... i think its too conservative. i also cant feel the kick drum.


*master 2:

i dont notice a change in the guitar sound. maybe just a little bit treble or mids were added? it doesnt sound very different though.

bass is better because it doesnt hurt as much. but still... i think it lacks mids. maybe i just think this cause im a bassist, hehe.

i can hear the snare better now. still too conservative

vocals is a little bit up front. it doesnt make much of a difference. overall though, the vocals still sound isolated. thats for mix one and 2.

in the breakdown part... the clean guitar sound is buried by the distorted guitar.

the guitar part in the 2:40 part sounds better compared to mix 1


*master 3

looks like the guitar gain has been diminish (either that or the panning changed). i like it better than mix 1 and 2 since after the bass and drums come in, you can hear the "surround" effect, courtesy of the guitars being coming in both speakers.

bass is still not prominent... but this has the best bass mix compared to the two.

i wish i could feel the kick drum more... the snare is good, but there are parts where i wish it wasnt as loud. the 2:00 part is awesome. i love the drum mix. yeah!

-*-

Q and A:

1.  Which Master did you like most?  Why?
-master 3... the guitar isnt overwhelming... the drums are more present. see my notes :)

2.  Which Master did you like least?  Why?
-master 1, just because the bass really hurt my chest. you can see more on the notes i made.

3.  Which two files were mastered by the same person?  (Sample Answer:  Mix#2 and Mix#3 were done by the same person)
-masters 1 and 2 have the boomy bass sound and the conservative snare sound, therefore, 1 and 2 must have been mixed by one person.

4.  Which of the 3 masters do you think were done in a PROFESSIONAL mastering outfit? (Hint: the 3 masters were rendered from 2 different locations, one location had more expensive equipment than the other.)
-master 1 and 2 were too hi-fi... so i think master 3 was done in a more expensive studio. the thing with rock music is that you have to have better equipment to make them sound dirty... something you get for free when you play live. haha.

-*-

Note: i am an amateur... never mixed anything in my life. i just answered the thread because it ddnt say: ANYONE WITH NO EXPERIENCE, PLEASE DONT REPLY.

hehehe.

Offline abyssinianson

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2007, 11:19:42 PM »
no EQ and limiting? wouldn't that make these files just mixdown files?

-it sounds like mix 2 and 3 were done by the same person. both are louder, have the instrument dynamics brought out more and seem better balanced than the first mix.
-mix 1 seemed to take the more lo-fi approach which can be desireable for some genre but it take a bit out of the energy that the band seems to be putting out. the mixdown sounds a lot like what would have come out of SubPop in Seattle during the early days of grunge when everything was DIY. alright but not my bag.

-the recording and mixing method of the instruments could have used a bit more work. the guitars are not as articulated as I would have wanted; the vocals could benefit more from being a bit more back into the mix since it has a boxy character (no reverb or delay from the sound of it); the drums, specifically the cymbals (hi-hat and crashes) and the ride, could have been tightened up more to give it a more complementary tone to the straightforward, basic drum patterns.

-i guess i liked mix 3 more because the mix seems to be better balanced, it has a good energy to it and the mix works well for what the band wants to do. i didn't like mix 1 as much because the mix seemed really off to me; the mix sounded dry and lacking in energy.

just my 2 cents.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2007, 11:21:34 PM by abyssinianson »
ako si mimordz. 友だちからよろしくです!

Offline starfugger

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2007, 07:22:18 AM »
im going with abyss. i think master2 and 3 was done by the same person.  my first vote went to master3 since the guitars sounded bigger here. BUT my qualms are as follows:

there is too much high end from the hats, cymbals, and the vocals (think sibilance) in masters2 and 3.  i mean, i like how the vocals stood out in the two mixes, but the sibilance could be reduced. 

another issue is that in master 3 there is a lot of "space" in between the stereo field.  or up the EQ spectrum.  i don't know, im not sure.  just that it's not tight enough, unlike master2.  sure the guitars are wider, but i think this was not achieved through the use of proper panning but stereo enhancement instead.  hence that "hollow" feeling.  the workaround of course is a remix so that only a hint of stereo enhancement is used during the mastering stage.

as far as the mix is concerend, my qualms go with the drum sounds (overheads, kick snare toms).  i like my snare tighter, more articulate, and more explosive.  and my kick a little more "in your face".  but then again this is not MY snare and kick, hehe.  i kinda like the vocals really,  except for the sibilance.  the no reverb mix fits the genre i think.  and the performance is really good :)

overall it's a choice between 2 and 3.

please pm me where you got masters 2 and 3 done (i hope you dont mind)?  the reason i ask is because a client of mine will soon be getting their songs mastered too and i would like to be able to recommend as many mastering houses as possible.  thanks.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 07:44:59 AM by starfugger »
FOR RENT: Canon 550D, Canon 60D, Glidecam (Machinist), Toribio Slider EX with a pair of tripods for mounting, 2 1000W Lights with 9ft stands, Zoom H4, Rode Video Mic, Portable LED Lights 09154574744


Offline spilledmilk

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2007, 08:15:29 AM »
skunk, i just downloaded master1 so no comparisons yet.  but i really must say, the vocals sound a tad like nirvana!  :-D

hahaha!
Gibson SG Standard Silverburst
Siochi Custom Lead GT 50 Watt Head
Matching 2x12 Cab with Vintage 30s

Offline BALDO

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2007, 10:26:04 AM »
correct me if i am wrong Skunk.. i can hear MY WORK #3 even if i am just using a cellpone earpiece.. 
ps
the high's were a little bit on the cymbals as i can hear now.. thanks to the palm sander i was using a day before i did that job. so with the sibilance on the vocals.. i could have done better... no i am not using EXPENSIVE STUFF YET.. 8-)
Music is art in sound...

Offline starfugger

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2007, 11:52:09 AM »
correct me if i am wrong Skunk.. i can hear MY WORK #3 even if i am just using a cellpone earpiece.. 
ps
the high's were a little bit on the cymbals as i can hear now.. thanks to the palm sander i was using a day before i did that job. so with the sibilance on the vocals.. i could have done better... no i am not using EXPENSIVE STUFF YET.. 8-)

haha, note the word "YET".  ;)  watch out watch out.  hehe.  btw baldo, i have to compliment you on master 3.  it is the most "commercial" sounding of all.  i think you really improved the drum sound if master1 is to be used as the reference point. 
FOR RENT: Canon 550D, Canon 60D, Glidecam (Machinist), Toribio Slider EX with a pair of tripods for mounting, 2 1000W Lights with 9ft stands, Zoom H4, Rode Video Mic, Portable LED Lights 09154574744

Offline BALDO

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2007, 12:05:17 PM »
teka teka teka... HULA ko pa lang yan starfugger.. nasa work ako at hindi ko marinig ng husto yung song kasi pang cell pone na earpiece lang gamit ko..bakit hindi natin tanungin si skunky???
it was a bad move to do construction work and subject my precious ( precious daw o hehehe) hearing to loud sound pressure levels.. pero I AM SURE.. i can do better NEXT TIME.. sorry Skunky if i have to RUIN your shootout.. it wasn't part of the deal na ipost mo dito yung work ko..but its ok.. no big deal..
Music is art in sound...

Offline starfugger

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2007, 12:06:44 PM »
teka teka teka... HULA ko pa lang yan starfugger.. nasa work ako at hindi ko marinig ng husto yung song kasi pang cell pone na earpiece lang gamit ko..bakit hindi natin tanungin si skunky???
it was a bad move to do construction work and subject my precious ( precious daw o hehehe) hearing to loud sound pressure levels.. pero I AM SURE.. i can do better NEXT TIME.. sorry Skunky if i have to RUIN your shootout.. it wasn't part of the deal na ipost mo dito yung work ko..but its ok.. no big deal..

aw.

inbox full na daw baldo. 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 12:14:00 PM by starfugger »
FOR RENT: Canon 550D, Canon 60D, Glidecam (Machinist), Toribio Slider EX with a pair of tripods for mounting, 2 1000W Lights with 9ft stands, Zoom H4, Rode Video Mic, Portable LED Lights 09154574744

Offline BALDO

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2007, 12:16:25 PM »
starfugger..i just fixed it..
Music is art in sound...

Offline marvinq

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2007, 12:34:41 PM »
master 3 sounds the 'most tidy', and i like it best. master 2 & 3 sounds compressed, with #3 having more compression. also, master 3's highs are either 'almost clipping' or already clipping.

all 3 are pretty good. i'm happiest with #3.
============
Marvin Querido
http://www.facebook.com/MVQMusic ============

Offline BALDO

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2007, 01:07:22 PM »
Marvin..actually i noticed .wav files being transported to the internet thru mp3 files tend to CLIP even if the file was mastered at -1 dB..
ps
yes it is clipping..
i remember Aerosmith's song ( one popular one which i can't remember) going over 0 dB after copying it to a DAT machine.. but no distortion though.. :?
Music is art in sound...

Offline starfugger

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2007, 01:50:29 PM »
ahh yeah i noticed mastered songs that were converted from wav to mp3 usually clip. 
FOR RENT: Canon 550D, Canon 60D, Glidecam (Machinist), Toribio Slider EX with a pair of tripods for mounting, 2 1000W Lights with 9ft stands, Zoom H4, Rode Video Mic, Portable LED Lights 09154574744

Offline skunkyfunk

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2007, 01:54:08 PM »
ahh yeah i noticed mastered songs that were converted from wav to mp3 usually clip. 

Even wav's do clip.  I just listened to Beyonce's B-day on CD and I hear clipping.  YES, THAT WAS A MAJOR RELEASE.

Anyway, just bring on the comments.

Offline starfugger

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2007, 02:41:41 PM »
Marvin..actually i noticed .wav files being transported to the internet thru mp3 files tend to CLIP even if the file was mastered at -1 dB..
ps
yes it is clipping..
i remember Aerosmith's song ( one popular one which i can't remember) going over 0 dB after copying it to a DAT machine.. but no distortion though.. :?

from what i know a file may clip but no audible distortion may be heard if the clipping doesnt reach several samples above the limit.  i dunno, i read this somewhere ... rip rowan's thoughts on mastering.  very enlightening actually. 
FOR RENT: Canon 550D, Canon 60D, Glidecam (Machinist), Toribio Slider EX with a pair of tripods for mounting, 2 1000W Lights with 9ft stands, Zoom H4, Rode Video Mic, Portable LED Lights 09154574744

Offline skunkyfunk

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2007, 03:42:57 PM »
Marvin..actually i noticed .wav files being transported to the internet thru mp3 files tend to CLIP even if the file was mastered at -1 dB..
ps
yes it is clipping..
i remember Aerosmith's song ( one popular one which i can't remember) going over 0 dB after copying it to a DAT machine.. but no distortion though.. :?

from what i know a file may clip but no audible distortion may be heard if the clipping doesnt reach several samples above the limit.  i dunno, i read this somewhere ... rip rowan's thoughts on mastering.  very enlightening actually. 

Rip Rowan actually is pissed with the trend.  He even used Rush's songs to show waveforms as time had passed. 

Anyway, the key is not really to avoid clipping but MASK clipping.  Check out any modern release (2005 and later) and you'll see the frequency response having sharp cutoffs at 15.5KHz-16KHz.  That gives you more headroom and less problems audibility of clipping artifacts.

I just heard new Hellyeah (Vinnie Paul's new band) songs (on mp3 pa lang) and the songs clip like hell even on earbuds. 


Offline skunkyfunk

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2007, 03:55:06 PM »
Marvin..actually i noticed .wav files being transported to the internet thru mp3 files tend to CLIP even if the file was mastered at -1 dB..
ps
yes it is clipping..
i remember Aerosmith's song ( one popular one which i can't remember) going over 0 dB after copying it to a DAT machine.. but no distortion though.. :?

from what i know a file may clip but no audible distortion may be heard if the clipping doesnt reach several samples above the limit.  i dunno, i read this somewhere ... rip rowan's thoughts on mastering.  very enlightening actually. 

Several samples ABOVE THE LIMIT?  In digital, you have a finite number of sample value points depending on the bit-depth.  Say you have a 16-bit file.  Any given sample point can fall on any of the 2^16 or 65,536 unique sample points (for full wave reference, that would corrspond to -32767 to 0 to 32,767.  So let us say our limit is 0dBFS, or in digital, that corresponds to sample -32767 or 32,767.  AES conducted a research if it is possible that 0dBFS+ levels do not manifest in digital playback systems.  And the answer was- it is impossible for going over the 0dBFS limit without any form of distortion.

Offline starfugger

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2007, 03:57:51 PM »
duuhhh, i dunno ask rip rowan  :lol:  so many numbers, so little time no?

anyway ive seen this happen. ive recorded some transients over 0dbfs thinking i MUST redo the parts... but i couldnt hear the distortion ... hmmmm...  maybe i need new ears ...
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 04:15:00 PM by starfugger »
FOR RENT: Canon 550D, Canon 60D, Glidecam (Machinist), Toribio Slider EX with a pair of tripods for mounting, 2 1000W Lights with 9ft stands, Zoom H4, Rode Video Mic, Portable LED Lights 09154574744

Offline BALDO

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2007, 04:02:01 PM »
thats the reason why i dont master at 0 db...Skunky next time i wont do that square waveform your band or ANY OTHER BAND requests you to do.. period..
Music is art in sound...

Offline skunkyfunk

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2007, 04:05:50 PM »
thats the reason why i dont master at 0 db...Skunky next time i wont do that square waveform your band or ANY OTHER BAND requests you to do.. period..

I'm with you here, but we do have to pretend to be subject to idiocy at times.  But for the record, some are still open to not-so-loud mastering.  But still, the waveform shall still reach 0dBFS in that case.

Offline marvinq

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2007, 04:17:07 PM »
if they want it louder, why don't they just turn up the volume? it used to be that simple.
============
Marvin Querido
http://www.facebook.com/MVQMusic ============

Offline starfugger

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #22 on: July 03, 2007, 04:18:54 PM »
if they want it louder, why don't they just turn up the volume? it used to be that simple.


panalo!!!  onga diba?

kala kasi nila gaganda tunog nila pag malakas ... para pansindak daw ... nalimot na nila halaga ng dynamics sa music.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2007, 04:19:55 PM by starfugger »
FOR RENT: Canon 550D, Canon 60D, Glidecam (Machinist), Toribio Slider EX with a pair of tripods for mounting, 2 1000W Lights with 9ft stands, Zoom H4, Rode Video Mic, Portable LED Lights 09154574744

Offline BALDO

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #23 on: July 03, 2007, 04:19:24 PM »
if they want it louder, why don't they just turn up the volume? it used to be that simple.
MISMO!!!!! 10000000000000000+
point to the volume knob!!!
Music is art in sound...

Offline BALDO

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: I NEED YOUR EARS!!! THE ACID TEST - Mastering Shootout
« Reply #24 on: July 03, 2007, 04:21:24 PM »
i can only remember SADE's album which sold millions of copies.. nasa -6dB pa yata mastering nun..hayyyyy
WALA SA PALAKASAN YAN!!!! grrrrrrr~~~~!!!
Music is art in sound...