Advise for a Noob about Recording

[G5]

Sirs,

I always wanted to record my composition for the longest time. Ngayon lang talaga ako nag ka chance/ o nagkapera para magawa ko to. Since my quest is to create a demo CD being minimalist is the option. Tapos yung genre ko po is alternative/pop and I think don't have to go to uber pro instruments or yung mga high end products due to Php constraints. I'm sure everyone will agree.

What I have as of now:
1. red washburn guitar (x-series)
2. takamine (d-series)
3. behringer USB Interface
4. pentium 3 800 MHz (Windows XP)
    512 MB / 20 GB HD
5. 5mx5m room with A/C na maingay


Eto po ang aking mga tanong:
1. ano po yung magandang mic na pwede sa room recording for voice and el.guitar and ac.guitar? (i was looking at Behringer mics like C1 or B1)
2. whats the best guitar amp for a budget na below 20K, again for recording?
3. sa guitar effects which is better yung chain na effects o yung mga zoom or pod effects processor? advantage or disadvantage din po sa mga setup na ganito
4. software that's easy to use 
5. CD writer na external like with USB interface
6. do i need a drum machine? i need more info abt what i can do with this...
7. piano / keyboard vs. synth - which one is better? I found out in Yamaha Megamall that CP1 is priced the same as MM6 ba yun at around 37K

Yung mga songs ko po ay love songs na me pagka pop-ish and emo-alternative. in some of my songs kasi po i shout esp yung mga high-notes. in terms of voice quality naman i would need more thickness. 5'4 lang kasi ako tsaka light (patpatin) pa yung built ng katawan so I would need something that can make my voice a bit "buo" in terms of recording. Please include nalang din po yung Php counterpart ng advice nyo.

Thank you for all your help.


Note: 3650 thanks for the reminder

[3650guy]

you will be getting some good answers from our experts here, but first quickly "rephrase" question 4, before the mods see it.. as in quickly.... baka ma warn ka pa....

[bassman88]

you will be getting some good answers from our experts here, but first quickly "rephrase" question 4, before the mods see it.. as in quickly.... baka ma warn ka pa....

what's wrong with question 4? haha! Basta pinoy inaassume pirated agad! hahahaha!

[3650guy]

na rephrase na po... and don't assume anything...
back to topic po...

[KitC]

What I have as of now:
3. behringer USB Interface - it's ok for starters, but try to save up for a better interface... you won't regret it.
4. pentium 3 800 MHz (Windows XP)
    512 MB / 20 GB HD - this is the bare minimum for most software nowadays, if not already way below minimum standard for most DAW software. You can buy Intel or AMD systems that are relatively cheap yet powerful nowadays.
5. 5mx5m room with A/C na maingay - then turn off the aircon whenever you record with a mic. Even some better equipped studios do practice that once in a while for critical recordings.


Eto po ang aking mga tanong:
1. ano po yung magandang mic na pwede sa room recording for voice and el.guitar and ac.guitar? (i was looking at Behringer mics like C1 or B1) - this can be hard to quantify although you can get good recordings with Behri mics... milk it for what it's worth!
2. whats the best guitar amp for a budget na below 20K, again for recording? - ugh... toss this in the GC forums and watch the fur fly! Some here will say... get a Pod if you don't want to worry about miking and other stuff.
3. sa guitar effects which is better yung chain na effects o yung mga zoom or pod effects processor? advantage or disadvantage din po sa mga setup na ganito - this is another candidate for the GC forums.
4. software that's easy to use  - too many to list but some offer demo versions. Try them out and settle on the one where you work your best.
5. CD writer na external like with USB interface - I personally don't like external burners since they're more expensive than the burner is actually worth (unless it's a Plextor?). Better to go internal.
6. do i need a drum machine? i need more info abt what i can do with this... - depends... see below.
7. piano / keyboard vs. synth - which one is better? I found out in Yamaha Megamall that CP1 is priced the same as MM6 ba yun at around 37K - better to get one that has a lot more sounds than you will need especially since you will be doing pop. Plain piano just won't hack it for the genre. Some even come with drum loops or arpeggiators that can act as drum machines.

Btw, I saw #4... good you changed it.

[bassman88]

na rephrase na po... and don't assume anything...
back to topic po...

oops.. sorry 3650guy, my mistake. 

[abyssinianson]

Sirs,

I always wanted to record my composition for the longest time. Ngayon lang talaga ako nag ka chance/ o nagkapera para magawa ko to. Since my quest is to create a demo CD being minimalist is the option. Tapos yung genre ko po is alternative/pop and I think don't have to go to uber pro instruments or yung mga high end products due to Php constraints. I'm sure everyone will agree.

What I have as of now:
1. red washburn guitar (x-series)
2. takamine (d-series)
3. behringer USB Interface
4. pentium 3 800 MHz (Windows XP)
    512 MB / 20 GB HD
5. 5mx5m room with A/C na maingay


Eto po ang aking mga tanong:
1. ano po yung magandang mic na pwede sa room recording for voice and el.guitar and ac.guitar? (i was looking at Behringer mics like C1 or B1)
2. whats the best guitar amp for a budget na below 20K, again for recording?
3. sa guitar effects which is better yung chain na effects o yung mga zoom or pod effects processor? advantage or disadvantage din po sa mga setup na ganito
4. software that's easy to use 
5. CD writer na external like with USB interface
6. do i need a drum machine? i need more info abt what i can do with this...
7. piano / keyboard vs. synth - which one is better? I found out in Yamaha Megamall that CP1 is priced the same as MM6 ba yun at around 37K

1. you can use a large diaphragm condenser mic to do these things. shop around for your budget.
2 and 3. some people prefer single effects pedals and others do well with rackmount stuff like PODs and stuff like that. this all depends on what your budget allows. i think that both have advantages and disadvantages so it really comes down to taste. personally, i like using analog effects for most things right into a nice tube amp and for other things I use a digital preamp like my Sansamp PSA-1 into a G-Force for somethings. it all depends on what you can afford.

not sure what local stores have as far as amps go so i would ask local guitar people for good bargains. peavey, small fender amps seem to be popular.

4. for recording multi-track you have a choice from full-blown software sequencers like Cubase, Sonar, Logic to basic multitracking proggies like Adobe Audition. i dont know what post #4 originally said but if it hinted at pirated stuff then that is your call. i can empathize with Php constraints but I can't condone stealing stuff since there ARE free open source sequencers out there if you really can't spring for buying software.

5. don't know much about external CD writers.

6. you may not need a drum machine, but if you do...ez drummer and similar programs offer a really good way to put drum tracks in your songs using the computer. you can also chop up samples too and use programs like Battery to make your drums tracks via MIDI. Version one of Battery should be available for cheap now so i'd look around for that.

7. i would get a piano over a synth because if you do buy a nice sequencer like Sonar, Logic or Cubase, they come with some decent syths that you can use for synth stuff using the piano as a MIDI controller. that is two birds with one stone. i don't believe that plain piano won't cut it for pop because some of the most well known pop composers in history have used "plain piano" sounds to great effect...Elton John comes to mind as one great example. Using PC based synths shifts the main concern to the quality of your audio interface because it can determine latency and the quality of the stuff you record. I would not skimp on this item. get the best that you can afford because it will serve you well as the basis of your recording quality.

good luck.

PS. the main thing i would do first is try and upgrade your PC to at least a Pentium D or a comparable AMD machine. get a bigger HD too, at least 250GB. next, if the AC is maingay..don't record with it on and just bear the heat of the room for a few takes.

[KitC]

Haha!  Touche' on #7, abyss! You make a good argument, though.

[abyssinianson]

Haha!  Touche' on #7, abyss! You make a good argument, though.

yeah...i love a good synth and I would consider myself a synth fanboy (not a synth expert..lol) but if i had to strongly consider cost, i would go this route because you can get recording right away with the least amount of expenditure. sure, you can get that nice Roland, Korg or Alesis synth but do you really need it to record? those can wait, IMO, since the main idea would be to flesh out song ideas so you can experiment with it and develop your craft with the materials that matter the most. i would say that a nice 88 key piano is far more flexible in the studio than a specialized 49 or 60 key synth that "locks" you into a particular sound that a synth can make and the guy can always build up his kit over time.

[jcv]

Sana makatulong itong konti kong kaalaman

Behringer C1 - Eto lang ang kaisa-isa kong condenser dahil ito lang kasya sa budget ko. So eto share ko nalang experience ko sa mic na ito.

1. Kelangan niya ng phantom power

2. Ang tunog nito pag ginamit sa vocals, nasa gitna ng warm at cold (hindi ko alam kung pano explain ito pero kung baga sa eq more on sa mid-treb ang tunog niya). Yung gusto kong tunog sana na makuha pang vocals e yung mabass at warm ang tunog so bumili ako ng preamp ng behringer yung "tube" preamp ultragain nila. although hindi siya tunay na tube (di ko maintindihan na circuitry e), nagawa naman niya ang trabaho niya.

Kung gagamitin mo naman ito para i-mic yung takamine D series mo (china na D series gamit ko. hehe), ayos narin kaso medyo hirap parin niyang makuha yung tunog ng bass. Ginagamit ko naman yung art tube preamp ko pag minimic yung gitarang ito. pampadagdag kapal lang ng tunog.

Eto yung sample ng c1 sa takamine dragon series para may idea kayo... no preamp, about 5-8 inches away sa body ng guitar. linagyan ko lang ng reverb at tinaasan ng konti ang bass sa eq. Bagong kabit din ng strings: http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6394298

So ayun, for a 3k mic, ayos na siya. napagastos lang ako sa mga preamp 

Sa recording naman ng electric guitar

Siguro kung pang recording lang talaga at medyo tight ang budget, multi fx processors mas convenient. guitar->fx->recorder. Tapos lahat ng kelangan mo i adjust madali ng kalikutin. Yung pod at behringer v-amp merong naring cabinet simulator so pwede na siya magtunog naka amp talaga.

[KitC]

Those are good pointers there, jcv!

Yung gusto kong tunog sana na makuha pang vocals e yung mabass at warm ang tunog

Learn to use a mic's proximity boost... try moving closer to the mic to get more bass.

[G5]

Mga sirs,

Thank you po sa inyong mga inputs. I treasure them a lot.

I heard a lot about SM75 or SM85 as one of the best mics. Do we have dealers of Shure here in Manila esp sa Mandaluyong/Pasig area?

In addition lang sa mga questions ko, what is the myth in using monitors vs. headphones? I have a TDK noise cancelling  headphone na nakuha ko sa CDR King at a reasonable price; is it ok to use that as a recording monitor?

Btw, me sale nga pala this April yung dealer ng Behri sa Megamall. Actually pwede na nilang ibigay yung discounted price but they will just give you a temporary receipt and once April na saka nila ibibigay yung official. For taxing purposes daw kaya ganun.

[siore]

^^ oo nga mga sir.

A lot of guys consider it blasphemy to mix-down tracks using a studio headphone.  Why do they insist on monitors, when a lot of listeners these days would listen to the music through headphones?  That's what I think at least... I could be wrong.   

[digitalcyco]

^^ oo nga mga sir.

A lot of guys consider it blasphemy to mix-down tracks using a studio headphone.  Why do they insist on monitors, when a lot of listeners these days would listen to the music through headphones?  That's what I think at least... I could be wrong.   

maybe its because i think headphones dont exactly replicate the audio as it would on monitor speakers.

although IMO I do mixing with the headphones, then double check them on monitors. hehehe

[jcv]

Mahalaga sir yung monitors sa mixing. Dati headphones rin at ordinary speakers ang gamit ko. Ang naging problem ko kapag maganda ang mix sa headphones, medyo pangit siya lumalabas sa speakers. Pag sa speakers naman ako nag mix, pangit siya sa headphones. So ang ginawa ko, kinuha ko yung average na tunog dun sa speakers at headphones. Nung akala ko e ayos na, pinlay ko sa kotse yung mix.. ang pangit ng result.

Yung speakers ko kasi parang merong level enhancement, so nung akala ko na malakas na ang bass, pag pinlay sa ibang component, ang hina pala ng bass. Ang naging problem ko naman sa headphones, akala ko tama na yung level ng treb. pag pinlay sa ibang component, ang tining ng tunog, medyo masakit sa tenga.

So kumuha ako ng monitors dahil may nag sabi sakin na flat response daw ito. Ang pagkaintindi ko sa flat response, walang kahit anong level boost sa frequency.

Eto aking mix with and w/o monitors, baka makatulong. pasensya na kung hindi ganun ka ganda, hindi naman ako pro. hehe 

Using ordinary jvc speakers:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6202390

Using behringer truth 2030p monitor speakers:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6396405

Yung headphones ginagamit ko para marinig yung mga maliliit na detail

I hope makatulong. Good day 

[KitC]

The problem with headphones is that their stereo imaging is exaggerated and the frequency response of most consumer headphones isn't exactly flat. It gets worse when some models claim to have bass boost; try mixing on those and see how well they translate to ordinary speakers. Other headphones may have low bass response forcing you to overcompensate in your mix, the resulting mix will have booming bass frequencies.

There are only a handful of headphones that users recommend for mixing and often, these are not cheap. The one I use now, AKG 240S, has an open response that I like, but I still do a final reference on monitors just to make sure. Another one that I used to recommend were Audio Technica ATH M40fs, largely superseded by the M50.

One thing you should do is have a reference recording in the same genre as the song you are mixing. This will give you an idea of the frequencies you need to tweak.

[G5]

Thank you po sa da realiables KitC, abyssinianson, jcv, digitalcyco, siore, bassman88 and 3650guy. Please keep your inputs coming lang po. Kung may isasuggest kayo na mga gears na pasok sa budget na nakita nyo dito sa classifieds mas ok po yun. Hindi pa din ako bihasa sa mga gears. Thats something that Id like to learn too.

More power po!

[LouieAzcona]

Samson CO1u USB large diapraghm condenser microphone (muka na ba akong usb mic?) hehe. memorize ko pa pangalan no? hehe. kasi yan lang meron din ako eh.

4500+ sa audiophile.
sa computer galing ang power so di mo na kelangan ng phantom power.
affordable na nami-meet yung purpose.

guitar amp: try mo marshall valvestate. affordable na maganda.
bass amp: behringer BX300 (8k sa stagepoint, raon)

bukod sa mas natural ang sound kapag nag-mic ka ng amp, mas matuto ka sa recording kapag ganon ang process. ung mga plug-ins naman, hindi mo din magagamit ng maayos kapag hindi ka marunong gumamit ng amp.

[lexbilis]

Mahalaga sir yung monitors sa mixing. Dati headphones rin at ordinary speakers ang gamit ko. Ang naging problem ko kapag maganda ang mix sa headphones, medyo pangit siya lumalabas sa speakers. Pag sa speakers naman ako nag mix, pangit siya sa headphones. So ang ginawa ko, kinuha ko yung average na tunog dun sa speakers at headphones. Nung akala ko e ayos na, pinlay ko sa kotse yung mix.. ang pangit ng result.

Yung speakers ko kasi parang merong level enhancement, so nung akala ko na malakas na ang bass, pag pinlay sa ibang component, ang hina pala ng bass. Ang naging problem ko naman sa headphones, akala ko tama na yung level ng treb. pag pinlay sa ibang component, ang tining ng tunog, medyo masakit sa tenga.

So kumuha ako ng monitors dahil may nag sabi sakin na flat response daw ito. Ang pagkaintindi ko sa flat response, walang kahit anong level boost sa frequency.

Eto aking mix with and w/o monitors, baka makatulong. pasensya na kung hindi ganun ka ganda, hindi naman ako pro. hehe 

Using ordinary jvc speakers:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6202390

Using behringer truth 2030p monitor speakers:
http://soundclick.com/share?songid=6396405

Yung headphones ginagamit ko para marinig yung mga maliliit na detail

I hope makatulong. Good day 

actually, meron din headphones na pang monitor. try audiophile, they have akg reference headphones there.

that is right, flat response means walang boost on any frequency.

[KitC]

actually, meron din headphones na pang monitor. try audiophile, they have akg reference headphones there.

that is right, flat response means walang boost on any frequency.

Headphones will only take you so far when it comes to stereo imaging. For one thing, stereo perception is exaggerated since your ears are isolated from each other, and bass reproduction is often compromised because of the smaller drivers in headphones. Even if the specs say flat response, you will always have to reference your mix with known monitors since sound travels differently in open air compared to the closed confines of headphones.

Headphones tend to be better for surgical edits since you can really concentrate on a particular portion of the sound especially if your headphones are closed-type. I wouldn't trust any EQ and stereo imaging tweaks with headphones.

[siore]

Sir, I'm sure I misunderstood you.  Stereo perception?  Isn't it better with headphones?  With the monitors, if I so much as turn my head to one side, the stereo spread of the mix changes.

I understand your point with the EQ issue, yes it travels differently in open air.  But what's the objective?  Supposing the majority of people use their headphones to listen to their music (theoretically), do we still make it pleasing to the ears in open air?  Well, I could be wrong with regards to the majority thing, but that's the point I'm trying to arrive at.  Why monitors?

Pardon my curiousity.  It's just that a lot of professional guys go with monitors, and it puzzles me why.

 

[jcv]

actually, meron din headphones na pang monitor. try audiophile, they have akg reference headphones there.

that is right, flat response means walang boost on any frequency.

Ah yes sir. Nakita ko din sa Audiophile yung mga monitor headphones nila.

Sang-ayon din ako kay Sir KitC, sound travels differently in open air kaya malaking advantage parin siguro na may monitor speakers. At parang nakakastress din siguro sa taenga/tenga pag enclosed ito ng matagal lalo na pag mahaba-haba ang kelangan trabahuhin. Malaking bagay din ang condition ng taenga sa pag mix.

Napaisip nanaman ako. Kung merong mga cabinet simulation, makakagawa kaya sila ng speaker simulation for headphones.. Or meron na kayang ganito.

OT: Siguro sa future naka direct inject na ang mga mp3 natin sa utak. hehe, ibang style nanaman ng mixing to.

[jcv]

woops. I think na filter yung word ko na t a e n g a kaya may lumabas na ice cream. Hindi po talaga ice cream ang binabanggit ko kundi "Ears" 

[LouieAzcona]

Sir, I'm sure I misunderstood you.  Stereo perception?  Isn't it better with headphones?  With the monitors, if I so much as turn my head to one side, the stereo spread of the mix changes.

I understand your point with the EQ issue, yes it travels differently in open air.  But what's the objective?  Supposing the majority of people use their headphones to listen to their music (theoretically), do we still make it pleasing to the ears in open air?  Well, I could be wrong with regards to the majority thing, but that's the point I'm trying to arrive at.  Why monitors?

Pardon my curiousity.  It's just that a lot of professional guys go with monitors, and it puzzles me why.

 

dahil kung maganda sa headphones, hindi siya maganda sa lahat. dahil hindi FLAT ang sound ng headphones. may mga frequencies sa headphones na nakaBOOST, kaya hindi mo pwedeng pagkatiwalaan pagdating sa mixing. lalo na kapag EQ na ang usapan. siguro kung panning, masarap sa headphones kasi makikita mo kaagad ang result.

ang mga studio monitors, FLAT ang sound. so, pwede mo siyang pagkatiwalaan sa pag-adjust ng EQ, which, i believe, is the most important part of mixing. para pagdating sa mga listeners ng trabaho mo, pwede nilang i-boost yung bass. o i-adjust yung EQ sa kahit anong gusto nila.

chka bro, hindi mo pwedeng pagsilbihan ang mga naka-headphones lang.
paano naman tong mga to:

*mga nagsa-soundtrip sa koche.
*mga band na magsusubmit ng DEMO para sa isang contest, hindi naman headphones ang gamit ng panels eh.
*ung mga tao sa BAR, kung sakaling patugtugin yung trabaho mo ng sound-tech sa malalaking speakers(minsan nangyayari yun)
*mga magsusubmit ng demo sa radio station, In the Raw for example, madali silang mag-grant ng air play.
*mga nakikinig sa maliliit na computer speakers.
*mga nakikinig sa earphones (earphones ba ang tawag doon sa swak sa tenga?)
*sa mga audiophile na magaganda ang "soundtrip system"
*mga highschool/college students na gagamitin ang song para sa video presentation nila. usually pangit mga speakers sa school eh. (ewan ko sainyo UST ako eh. sabog ung speaker sa podium eh!)

etc.

plus hindi lahat ng nakaheadphones ay may magagandang headphones. chka hindi lahat ng headphones ay magkakatunog, kung ano ang tunog sa headphones mo, iba yan sa ibang headphones. dahil malaki ang range ng quality ng mga headphones eh. makikita mo kaagad yan sa prices. merong 250, may 1000. may 2000.

ayun. magandang araw. 

[KitC]

Pardon my curiousity.  It's just that a lot of professional guys go with monitors, and it puzzles me why.

The operative word there should be "professionals go with monitors they trust..."

Not all monitors are created the same; and not all monitors can lay claim to having a flat response. Part of the problem is also exacerbated by the acoustics of the room you are mixing in - unless you have control of the room modes in your mix room, not even the best monitors in the world will give you a good mix.

Headphones drivers (speakers) are usually a design compromise. There's no way around physics... small drivers are only efficient in producing bass frequencies up to a certain limit, and bass frequencies (because of their long wavelengths) require a fair amount of distance in order to be heard properly. There are only a handful of headphones with multiple drivers; most employ a single full spectrum driver - this alone already dictates a compromise in performance.

Monitors, OTOH, employ at least a 2-way driver arrangement, with some others having 3-way configurations. This usually increases the efficiency of sound reproduction; large woofers are more efficient at reproducing bass frequencies while small drivers are good at treble frequencies. Like I said earlier, it's mostly about physics.