Author Topic: Audio Signal Detereoration (Read 5607 times)

Milo · « **on:** January 09, 2006, 01:36:14 PM »

Meron bang large amount ng detereoration ng audio signal if the length is about 60 ft. (mic cable)......

I dont know if it is a lame idea to use longer cables than monster cables (medusa cables)...kasi matipid pag ganun....

kung pangit na idea yun, bka may idee kayo instead of buying expensive monster cables... Help..

Salamatenkyusenyo!!!

abyssinianson · « **Reply #1 on:** January 10, 2006, 04:49:25 AM »

Any length of cable past 10 feet will offer signal deterioration - especially if the cable is not of good quality. Noise, RF leaks, and signal deterioration resulting in bad audio OVER TIME is sure to happen but negligable, I think, if you are running the mics to a PA system since the signal is so loud that clarity if often not an issue. In the studio, however, that is a different story and you should get the best brand you can get - Monster, Mogami, Neutrik - whatever - it took me a while to wire my entire studio, guitar, and bass setups with monster and mogami cables but it was worth it - i can tell the difference and there isn't any noise leakage at all!

glassjaw_jc · « **Reply #2 on:** January 10, 2006, 10:50:37 AM »

since you mentioned mogami and monster, how do you rate both cables? in what application did you use them? how did they compare? thanks

KitC · « **Reply #3 on:** January 10, 2006, 01:46:44 PM »

You don't need to fund Mr. Monster's/Mogami's next Lamborghini. Read this. Though the article refers to speaker wire, it can apply to most wires used in audio. If you want less resistance in your wiring, go Zaolla, but you have to have deep pockets for 'em.

glassjaw_jc · « **Reply #4 on:** January 10, 2006, 04:39:15 PM »

sir kit, i'm mostly interested in instrument cables.. i know mogami and monster have instrument cables.. re zaolla, ganda sa specs problema is the moolah and source.

KitC · « **Reply #5 on:** January 10, 2006, 08:02:05 PM »

For unbalanced cables, up to 5-6 meters is ok but remember, proximity to RFI/EMI sources also determines noise intrusion. Long cables tend to act like antennae and unbalanced cables are prone to RFI regardless of quality. Noise sources can be many and varied: close proximity to radio stations/CB units, light dimmers and fluorescent ballasts, routing power cables in parallel with audio cables within the same conduit, and even your pc's CRT monitor (because of the flyback). Short of building your studio inside a Faraday cage, there ways to avoid this noise: keeping unbalanced cables short (<6 meters), keeping power and audio routes separate and never parallel, efficient grounding of equipment, and so on.

As for cable quality, you get what you pay for; buy a really cheap cable and expect cheap results. I've seen cheap 'guitar/mic cables' with only a few strands of wire that pass for the shield, and even fewer strands for the core. Worse, they break easily after repeated bending. By the same token, I don't mean buy the most expensive cable you can find because the law of diminishing returns sets in. The secret to good wire is the gauge; larger gauges mean better conductivity and less resistance. Then there is cable maintenance; I've seen 1/4" PL plugs act as radio receivers because of oxidation crud (the crud tended to act like a cat's whisker diode) or bad soldering. Of course, repeated stepping on your cables could compromise the shield and damage the core wire.

For long runs (> than 6 meters), balanced lines are the way to go. If you have to route an unbalanced signal greater than 6 meters, get a DI box and balanced wiring. Here's an explanation on the difference between balanced and unbalanced.

Yes, the Zaollas are good and some engineers swear by them (I'd like to get one just to try it out. Who knows? If we suddenly have a werewolf hereabouts, I can always melt the core and forge some silver bullets). If you got the dinero to afford these expensive cables, who's stopping you from spending? However, just exercise good common sense and you will probably save a lot.

glassjaw_jc · « **Reply #6 on:** January 10, 2006, 10:13:10 PM »

re cable gauge, i have a george L .155 and it's quiet enough for me... are you familiar with the .225(?) gauge they carry? following your point, that should be a better cable right?

i was actually thinking of using balanced cables for my bass so i can use longer cables (< 18 ft.).

what locally available cables would you recommend?

thanks

KitC · « **Reply #7 on:** January 11, 2006, 01:41:57 PM »

Quote from: glassjaw_jc

re cable gauge, i have a george L .155 and it's quiet enough for me... are you familiar with the .225(?) gauge they carry? following your point, that should be a better cable right?

Yup! More expensive, though... more importantly, you're happy with what you have. If it ain't broke, why fix it?

Quote from: glassjaw_jc

i was actually thinking of using balanced cables for my bass so i can use longer cables (< 18 ft.).

what locally available cables would you recommend?

thanks

Can't use balanced cables with your bass directly because the instrument's output is unbalanced by design. Balanced cables are usually routed from the stage going to the front-of-house (FOH) mixer. Depending on the setup, the FOH will usually get the feed from the bass cab's line out passing thru a DI box, of course. In rare instances will a bass be directly connected to the FOH mixer, but will still have to pass thru a DI box (preferably active) first.

While you can use unbalanced cables longer than 6 m, you run the risk of RFI/EMI. Some players even complain of weak signal or even a change in tone (most likely due to cable capacitance) when using very long cables. A couple of my guitar buddies have resorted to using wireless in order to avoid the ball-and-chain that is the cable, plus there is the added benefit of tone retention and being able to rub shoulders with some babes in the audience (I'm a keyboardist - sigh

).

Locally available? I guess you have a very good start with the George L's. Of course Klotz, Belden, Planet Waves, et al come to mind as well as the aforementioned Monster cables. As always, let common sense and your wallet be your guide.

Tarkuz Toccata · « **Reply #8 on:** January 11, 2006, 02:00:05 PM »

Some basses with active pickups have balanced outputs. If that's the case, then balanced cables can be used directly.

KitC · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2006, 02:39:30 PM »

Quote from: Tarkuz Toccata

Some basses with active pickups have balanced outputs. If that's the case, then balanced cables can be used directly.

That's interesting. I'd like to know which basses have that feature (balanced outs).

How do these plug into fx pedals since most (AFAIK, all) of their inputs are unbalanced? Are there any bass/guitar amps that accept balanced instrument level input? A little knowledge wouldn't hurt...

Tarkuz Toccata · « **Reply #10 on:** January 12, 2006, 09:23:05 AM »

I've seen some Steinbergers with balanced XLR (male) output, not only basses but also electric guitars. Steinbergers are usually equipped with EMG active pickups. There are some brands of acoustic-electric guitar such as Ibanez with a balanced XLR output or even an XLR-TRS Combo. Many electric guitar, bass, or acoustic-electric guitar with active electronics have balanced outputs. My Yamaha classic guitar installed with an EMG active pickup has a balanced output 1/4" jack. Please check out the EMG website for more information.

A special cable can be made for hooking up an electronic musical instrument with balanced output into the unbalanced input of effects pedals, signal processors or instrument amps. Just get a mic cable (2-conductor + 1 shield) and terminate it with a female XLR connector or 1/4" stereo phone plug (TRS) at one end and a 1/4" mono phone plug (TS) with internal balun transformer at the other end.

KitC · « **Reply #11 on:** January 12, 2006, 12:31:10 PM »

Quote from: Tarkuz Toccata

A special cable can be made for hooking up an electronic musical instrument with balanced output into the unbalanced input of effects pedals, signal processors or instrument amps. Just get a mic cable (2-conductor + 1 shield) and terminate it with a female XLR connector or 1/4" stereo phone plug (TRS) at one end and a 1/4" mono phone plug (TR) with internal balun transformer at the other end.

Which reminds me... do you still have any of those Whirlwind Little IMP's (the XLR female to 1/4"TS inline kind)? I had to order mine stateside.

Tarkuz Toccata · « **Reply #12 on:** January 12, 2006, 02:50:38 PM »

Out of stock but Peavey 1/4" transformer balanced phone plugs are available at Audiophile stores for P1,070 only.

KitC · « **Reply #13 on:** January 12, 2006, 03:18:34 PM »

Thanks! I'll look into it! A bit OT, but right now, I'm budgeting for your ATH M40fs.

abyssinianson · « **Reply #14 on:** February 08, 2006, 07:02:35 PM »

uh, yeah - if Mogami and Monster make MY music better then, yeah, let my bucks go to whoever's lamborghini. I went with Mogami and MOnster because I could tell the difference with my studio equipment. It didn't matter as much when I played live what cords I used between my bass, guitars, keyboard and drums (because they were loud anyway) but when I ran my instruments and mics to my gear - oh yes it made a difference. Granted, I had to go through a crapload of cords and wires over the years but when I built my studio and upgraded to better components. I mean, why invest in a Manley, Tube Tech, Avalon and skimp on your studio connections? I've never tried Zoalla but, hey, I am happy with my Mogami and Monster - they make me and my clients happy.

I use Monster unbalanced cables live and they work well. Robust and Dependable - plus they have a lifetime warranty!

Quote from: KitC

You don't need to fund Mr. Monster's/Mogami's next Lamborghini. Read this. Though the article refers to speaker wire, it can apply to most wires used in audio. If you want less resistance in your wiring, go Zaolla, but you have to have deep pockets for 'em.

KitC · « **Reply #15 on:** February 08, 2006, 11:38:38 PM »

Quote from: abyssinianson

I mean, why invest in a Manley, Tube Tech, Avalon and skimp on your studio connections? I've never tried Zoalla but, hey, I am happy with my Mogami and Monster - they make me and my clients happy.

I use Monster unbalanced cables live and they work well. Robust and Dependable - plus they have a lifetime warranty!

Believe it or not, abyssinianson, I know where you are coming from. My brother and late father were audiophiles who insist on the best quality components they could afford. My brother especially has these planar speakers wired with the thickest Monsters I ever saw. I even own a condenser which claims to use mogami wiring; I just happened to get a good deal on that mic - it does sound good though.

You are lucky in the sense that you can afford to wire your studio using Monster and Mogami; not many can say the same.

abyssinianson · « **Reply #16 on:** February 09, 2006, 02:36:05 PM »

believe me, i am no sucker but i was skeptical at first when i started building my studio years ago. as a guitar player, i always went for tone first but was nervous about paying so much for wire...i mean, it is JUST wire. that was a short lived sentiment when I gradually got to know more about pro-audio, started building my studio, and talked with my dad who is an avid audiophile and tube amp head. he always swore by the hulking pieces of gear that literally took up an entire section of our living room just to play reel to reels, vinyl and his bootlegged live jazz cassette recordings. "why?" i asked...i learned basically by listening and contrasting my judgement against other's opinions because i didn't want to think and spend the money for parts of my studio that only I was aware of, you know?

in the end, it all matters if the materials deliver the goods. believe me, i would much rather spend the wiring money on other things like another Distressor or that elusive Neumann that I've been lusting after but, hey, you have to set a good foundation somehow, even if it takes years to implement. just my two cents.

KitC · « **Reply #17 on:** February 09, 2006, 03:27:54 PM »

Duly noted.

A little OT: While I would like to own a U47 myself, I'd be happy just to even get a hold of a TLM 103 or Micro Gefell M 930 for a couple of hours (and even those are a distant dream). Wish my dad's tube-driven open reel Akai was still working so I could hammer it for some creamy tape-based saturation to take away the coldness of digital... And who said analog was dead?

Tarkuz Toccata · « **Reply #18 on:** February 09, 2006, 05:19:58 PM »

Quote from: abyssinianson

I use Monster unbalanced cables live and they work well. Robust and Dependable - plus they have a lifetime warranty!

I used to handle the purchasing of Monster Cable products for Audiophile. Please allow me to post my comments about MC. Their copper wires corrode, their outer insulation gets sticky and dirty, and their gold-plated connectors tarnish. Furthermore, they are too expensive and their service sucks! We are very disappointed with them. Just drop by our shop and see it for yourself. We stopped importing MC products because of poor quality.

abyssinianson · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2006, 07:58:51 PM »

Kit, analog will never die, my friend:) If it did, people would loose an appreciation for Neve, SSL and similar consoles no? I personally like analog stuff as much as digital - I would say its just comes down to knowing how to work with them and fitting them into how you work with your music.

I actually have a TLM 103 and a U87 that I use for a lot of guitar work and vocals. They are very good microphones and I love them a lot but there are newer ones that I picked up from rode australia and Audio Technica that sound so musical that I find myself going to them a lot because of the character of their sound. But as far as Neumann mics, I have been dying to get an M 147 - jeez, the sound on that tube mic is, well, heavenly....but I can only dream. But if I might make a suggestion, you could look into digital plugins by PSP called the warmifier. that plug sounds really good and is relatively cheap for VST, DxI, or RTAS if you are currently on a Pro Tools platform.

Tarkuz, its weird that your stock of MC cables are corroding. mine have been fine and I have played out with them and they make up the core of my guitar and bass rigs. maybe its the humidity of the phils.? i know that the cables are supposed to be specifically coated to avoid having the metal in contact with air so aybe something it deteriorating the protective coat during transport. getting replacements for my cables are pretty easy and I can readily drop by my local Guitar Center for a replacement though I've never done it but am aware of the option in case something happens to my cables.

KitC · « **Reply #20 on:** February 09, 2006, 09:17:18 PM »

Quote from: abyssinianson

Kit, analog will never die, my friend:)

Heh, just an aside when I saw someone putting down the lowly 4-track. One doesn't have to eschew tape in favor of hard disk. I always believed that mastery of one's tools was more important than the medium, regardless of it being Sonar, Cubase, PT or cassette! The local price disparities and availability of (or rather, lack of) affordable technologies, unfortunately, are what drives one to pursue his chosen medium.

I use some PSP stuff as well as Voxengo, although only the free stuff. I trawl the net for free plugs and vsts and have found lots of keepers. Unfortunately, I've had to give up credit when I suddenly had to change careers, so ordering the full blown plugins can be a little bit difficult. When things pick up again, I guess <sigh>.

Good to know you have a PT rig. All I could afford to order is the soft you see in my sig; good thing I have a sis in NY to order stuff for me (and I still owe her, hehe). It'd be nice to have a HD192 system, but the only thing I have left of my PT experience is the manual for ver. 3.5 - there's an interesting story to that, but I digress.

Regards,

abyssinianson · « **Reply #21 on:** February 10, 2006, 11:06:25 AM »

no worries - like i always say, its better to know what you've got inside out that have all the gear in the world and know squat about it, and believe me, there are a lot of people that don't take the time to know their setup inside out. Pro Tools is just one of the formats I work with. I work in Cubase SX3 and Nuendo as well through a Creamware Scope Pro and M-Audio Delta 1010 system. Thing is, collaborating with different people these days are a bit touchy since there are so many formats. I actually started on Cubase way, way back in the day when I forst got my hands on Cubase 3.1 from then I got Cubase VST 5.1 and didn't upgrade until SX3 and Nuendo 2. I skipped SX1 and 2 because there was still so much to learn and exploit in VST 5 that I took my time to upgrade. It was weird though that I got snickers from the Pro Audio people at my local store when I told them I had VST 5 and was jumping onto SX 3 - now THAT is a big jump.

KitC · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2006, 02:05:04 PM »

My Emu originally came with Cubase VST 5.1, when Steiny offered the upgrade to SL2 on the cheap, I immediately grabbed it just to take advantage of the SX engine. Now, I like to mix audio almost exclusively in Cubase. Relatively similar jumps we made.

Creamware Scope... now that's a system I'd like to get my hands on. <drool> Oh no!!! GAS attack!!!

abyssinianson · « **Reply #23 on:** February 11, 2006, 02:24:02 PM »

Creamware makes good stuff - I got turned into it after I checked out Steve Miller's studio (Afterlife). He mixes exclusively in Nuendo using Creamware cards and the included plugs. His latency is pretty as well from what I hear which is something I would expect from the onboard DSP the Scope cards have. My 1010s have 3ms latency which is more than enough to record and not audibly hear any delay in the monitored signal. The Emu cards have the same engines as the modern pro tools interfaces and they are really good - wonderful price as well considerin the bundle they included in those. I long considered getting one of those interfaces for my laptop to mix while I am flying but I figured if I can't fit it inside my messenger bag carryon, I don't want to lug it around the airport either. Don't even get me started on the small airplane tables!!!

My upgrade jump was made partially because of the learning curve in Cubase VST and the fact that Nuendo 2 and SX 3 just had everything I needed to seamlessly integrate music production AND film editing without leaving my chair. They certainly have done a lot of good work with the new version which makes me a very very happy Steinberg customer:)

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Author Topic: Audio Signal Detereoration (Read 5607 times)