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Author Topic: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.amps)  (Read 29167 times)

Offline starfugger

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OT reply kay dodjie:

bakit hindi world class ang tunog natin?

dahil sa gamit?

i don't think so. madami tayong gamit na magaganda, madami tayong world class studios dito sa bansa natin.

SKILLS ang issue sa tingin ko.  kasi kinakain ng thread na to ang oras na sana sinespend natin sa pag practice sa loob ng mga studios natin. 

if you would please stop injecting your "facts" into everyone's subconscious and start posting more uplifting and positive threads, maybe everyone would be more hopeful and start exerting more effort in perfecting his craft.  kung baga tulong-tulong tayo, hindi yung dina-douse mo yung hopes ng mga kababayan mong home recordists.  you say gamit ang dahilan and because we all don't have megabucks, dapat bang ma-stuck nalang tayo at tanggapin nalang natin ang sitwasyon?  dapat bang isipin ng mga newbies na nakakabasa nito na "ahhh oo nga hindi natin kayang maging world class dahil behringer lang ang kaya ng bulsa natin?  to be honest i have heard GREAT recordings that i believe are world class that were recorded with modest gear.  gear as modest as yours and mine.  so what gives? 

pero sige, i'll humor you for a moment.  kung gamit ang problema, ano ang ipo-propose mong solusyon kung sakaling wala tayong pambili ng gamit?

« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 01:38:59 PM by starfugger »
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Offline alroyT

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Ranting and crying like a baby to another forum eh?POD is not for SERIOUS recording?Where did you get that freakin idea?I could name a few artists who utilized POD for their albums,you think theyre a big joke to you?Dude I read your posts @ HC,that was lame and to think they'd agree with you?Not a chance.

This thread has lost it,you can lock it anytime sirs,mohawk's goat made more sense.

Offline alroyT

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SKILLS ang issue sa tingin ko.  kasi kinakain ng thread na to ang oras na sana sinespend natin sa pag practice sa loob ng mga studio natin. 

Well kung member ka ng 88 forums mawawalan ka nga ng skills,buti 2 lang ang forum ko hihihi(punta kayo Gibson forum ok dun madami kayo matututunan).

Offline legato

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #203 on: September 14, 2007, 01:49:48 PM »
Ranting and crying like a baby to another forum eh?POD is not for SERIOUS recording?Where did you get that freakin idea?I could name a few artists who utilized POD for their albums,you think theyre a big joke to you?Dude I read your posts @ HC,that was lame and to think they'd agree with you?Not a chance.

Are you saying "Wala yan sa lolo ko" has become "isusumbong kita sa nanay ko"?

Now, that is just sad.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 02:03:19 PM by legato »

Offline deltaslim

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #204 on: September 14, 2007, 02:04:46 PM »
All this whining about tube vs. modelers would have more credence if only people owned and had experience with the real thing, and could actually offer a choice IN THEIR STUDIO between the real thing and the modeler.

Pano kaya kung may client ka na walang knowledge about POD pero gusto ng Dumble tone para sa recording nya.  Tapos wala ka namang totoong Dumble.  Pero nung parinig at pasubok mo irecord ung POD Dumble sim sabi nya, "Maganda ah!  Sige, gamitin natin!

Sasabihin mo ba sa kanya na, "Sorry, pero hintayin mo na lang na maka-afford/makabili ako ng Dumble. Although it sounds good to you and sounds like Dumbles on cd, it doesn't sound like the Dumble I imagine it to be e...  Too bad I've got higher standards than you... "

Otherwise, it's all "virtual tone-masturbation"  *'scuse me french*
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 02:06:46 PM by deltaslim »


Offline KitC

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #205 on: September 14, 2007, 02:07:51 PM »
Prrrrrrttttt!!!!!

I am sorely, SORELY tempted to lock this thread simply because:

a. Skunk, I'm sorry to say, but most of your replies are designed for flamebaiting. You love the putting in the last word.

b. Let's go back to my "word-of-the-day" which is obfuscate, specifically the 2nd definition which states, ' to make obscure or unclear: to obfuscate a problem with extraneous information'. Skunk, you're obfuscating the issues by mixing up 2 different scenarios, live and recording. FM has no basis when an amp is loud, almost the same with an ampsim if the monitoring used is just as loud. FM is only important to listeners when listening at lower volumes so most guitarists can discard FM as part of their 'listening' equation. For recording engineers, we use nearfields which should negate FM except when we monitor at low volumes, which is also moot since engineers shouldn't move any monitor EQ if their goal is to mix properly when their monitors are already properly calibrated.

c. Flexibility in recording is achieved by getting both the mic amp and the DI'd signal for possible re-amping later. Even in other countries (or rather, especially), engineers usually like to have the option to reamp a guitar track because what was recorded sometimes doesn't fit the song in general. Does this mean that the raging amp that the guitarist recorded to was crap gear? Probably not, but it does mean that the emphasis isn't with the gear, but WITH THE SONG and how the other instruments complement each other. Amps may inspire the musician, but merely looking at the song just from the viewpoint of an amp or ampsim is extremely myopic.

c. There's a perception that digital sounds worse. Well, it does, to a degree and somehow, this can be proven, that's why there is this trend towards higher sampling rates as well as higher bitrates. Higher bitrates afford you more headroom but the emphasis in bitrate is not in the last upper 6 dB, but in the last 8 bits where the fade to nothingness defines how smooth the converters sound. Higher samplerates, OTOH, push up into supersonics the anti-aliasing brickwall filters which some blame for taking away the 'organic-ness' of sound. The prevailing theory is that upper harmonics, the ones that we don't hear, are lost because of the brickwall filters and raising the sample rate brings back some of those perceived harmonics, perceived because we sense it more than actually hear it.

Short anecdote: I remember Gerard Salonga's post (with Angee) about their description regarding an analog mix as "bumabalot". I can only think that it's possible that jitter was part of the equation there since jitter has been known to reduce soundstaging. Hopefully, better clocks can address this but GC4 has one of the best listening suites and gear that I've seen. If Angee was able to tell the difference between the 2 recordings, then I guess the fault lay in the original recordings themselves.

d. Lastly, it's one thing to have an animated conversation, but personal attacks aren't going to win you anything, especially in the friends department. Your bias is getting the best of you, and your ego isn't going to win you much support either. No man is an island, Dodj, but if you want to be one, hey, I'm not stopping you.

I will keep this thread open for now in hopes that the issue will clarify itself... hopefully.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 04:05:54 PM by KitC »
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Offline deltaslim

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #206 on: September 14, 2007, 02:19:44 PM »
Halimbawa, Delta is just one of the "tone is in the fingers" type of people and he thinks a minimalist setup for recording does the job FOR HIM.  Well and good.  But can he speak for all the other players?  What about loud players?  What about those who cannot feel chugs of high gain with modelling?  .

Dyaske! More misinformation at that!  If you're still in grade 1, row 4 regarding that "Tone is in the fingers" vs "Tone is in the wallet" thingie (as you are about "POD vs modellers"), haaaay... ewan ko na, Dodjie.  Sobrang mas progresibo na mga pananaw ng tao. Mga ganyang generalization is easily cut down by any logical thinking person.

We're not as simple minded as you insist on thinking, Dodjie.

EDIT: Sorry, KitC. Nauna ung post ko by a hair.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 02:25:52 PM by deltaslim »

Offline KitC

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #207 on: September 14, 2007, 02:35:19 PM »
No probs, Joric. It did take me some time to write it... I actually started while this thread was at page 13.
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Offline deltaslim

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #208 on: September 14, 2007, 02:45:12 PM »
No probs, Joric. It did take me some time to write it... I actually started while this thread was at page 13.

Well, better start writing a rejoinder now cuz I'm sure skunky's already writing a punto-for-punto response to your post and others'... which takes us to page 15, 16... So by the time you finish writing your reponse to skunky's post-in-the-making, your on page 17 na!

Offline starfugger

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i read thru chuck sabbath's posts and HC links.  kit, flame bait talaga tong thread na to.  what do we expect from a self-confessed ash soul (Souls of the Amp Simulator Haters Club) and hate spreader?

since we're on the HC topic na din, my favorite quotes were from Elric and Death Monkey:

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1708102&page=4

i find that dodjie's posts are all pregnant with whining and a lot of negative energy.  read them long enough and the laws of attraction will start working against you. 

seriously kit, how is that ignore button coming along?
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Offline KitC

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #210 on: September 14, 2007, 03:02:05 PM »
Well, better start writing a rejoinder now cuz I'm sure skunky's already writing a punto-for-punto response to your post and others'...

It's a strange gift, that one. On the upside, I'd like to have Dodj as part of my debate team, if we get to that point. Think of the possibilities... first diffuse and confuse the opponent... (somehow, as I'm writing this, Rex Navarette's SBC Packers skit is going thru my head... see those people over there? Is busy!  :lol: :lol: :lol: )
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Offline KitC

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #211 on: September 14, 2007, 03:05:39 PM »
seriously kit, how is that ignore button coming along?

I'll have to ask the admins about that. But admit it, Haze, how much popcorn and soda did you have the past few pages? i'm not a coffee drinkin' man, but I learned something new from x_taxi... See? This thread has a few good things going for it.

Now where's the vino, Vince?  :-D
« Last Edit: September 14, 2007, 03:07:00 PM by KitC »
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Offline smashing_kalabasa

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« Reply #212 on: September 14, 2007, 04:00:22 PM »
homayged! buhay pa pala ang thread na to?

kung ganun pa offtoic naman ako:

Catch rubberpool tonight at Club Dredd (Gweilos Libis)
w/ Pupil and The Ambassadors..friendly plug lang ha :)
and sa September 24, reunion gig ng orphanlily @ Magnet
Katipunan...

thanks, sorry offtopic, carpe diem!
you are turning into something you are not
- thom york

Offline KitC

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #213 on: September 14, 2007, 04:12:53 PM »
Hope you also posted in the Gigs forum, Terence. Join in the 'discussions' and have some popcorn.
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Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #214 on: September 14, 2007, 04:24:46 PM »
Well, better start writing a rejoinder now cuz I'm sure skunky's already writing a punto-for-punto response to your post and others'... which takes us to page 15, 16... So by the time you finish writing your reponse to skunky's post-in-the-making, your on page 17 na!

Delta, all I am saying is your "cost-efficiency" approach is not necessarily what everyone wants.  Kaya kung masaya ka sa PODxt tone mo, don't make me (or everyone else think) that it will work for everyone and any musical situation. 

Bow.

Offline abyssinianson

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #215 on: September 14, 2007, 04:28:33 PM »
Isa pa, why is everyone trying to make it appear that I am being anti-POD?  The POD is just a subset of one's tone palette; but the way I look at it, they want to claim it can replace anything.  Sorry but that's how I see it.

POD's are not meant to replace amps and no one is claiming that which is why they are called "simulators." However, people may find it hard to think that you aren't anti POD when you make contradictory statements like saying a POD is only part of a producer's production palette which infers a support for the usage of POD and POD-like units while making a claim about POD units like:

"But IMO, it is this "convenient route" that destroys the discipline of finding one's tone." - quote from you in the thread,"An Inquiry for POD owners" dated July 13, 2007.

I mean, come on, man, what is one supposed to think? I make no secret about the fact that I like amps as much as PODs. Sh*t, tools are tools, you know? Whether one uses PODs or amps in the studio is all relative to what sound you want, what you can afford to provide as a producer and how competitve you want your sound to be in comparison to other commercial music.

All in all, I think this this topic was meant to be inflammatory in some way because for the past, I dunno, gazillion pages opinions have been tosses around a topic that really doesn't have a hard and fast answer. But, here, I'll give you my opinion on the matter about why there is such a divide between amps and modellers: because the tools are there and the motivation to use particular tools over another are determined by the desire to produce a particular sound AND the availability of resources to get your music recorded. Naturally, if one would like a vintage tube amp sound but does not have access to a vintage set of amps will do the next best thing - rent sh*t out OR use a modeller. Pic your poison and move on to the main meat of your job - recording music!

ako si mimordz. 友だちからよろしくです!

Offline KitC

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Re: The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.a
« Reply #216 on: September 14, 2007, 04:32:18 PM »
That was utterly, UTTERLY lame, skunkyfunk. People who are in a business KNOW that the bottom line is always about cost. If cost isn't an issue, then one's business can only be considered a hobby.

Maawa ka naman sa sarili mo. You were pwned over at HC. Give it a rest.

I'm locking this thread now.
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