"Hiyaw" is in the ear of the beholder.

[firemodel55]

WTF?hahahaha!

I am sure may mga, kahit kaunti at remote, na trip si Aling Dionisya pero hindi ko masasabi na kanya kanya dahil kung sagaba sa normal curve -- ito ang may mga twisted sense of beauty.

[firemodel55]

parang alam ko na kung saan papunta 'tong thread na 'to, hehe.

Parang Shake, Rattle & Roll ito.... parating may sequel.  hehe.

[rockophoria]

The Philippines is one country where people HEAVILY insists kanya kanya.  When I talk to the Americans who know, its easier for me to align with them on what is a Great Sounding Guitar.  In my experience, they have consistently supplied me with guitars that have HIYAW without me ever having to hear the guitars or touch them.  I can only say that the defense of "subjectivity" comes from people who lack the experience, exposure and income to know what Great Guitars sound like. 

By the way, the flipside of the coin is marami rin boutique & Vintage na gitara na panget ang tunog. 

At the lower level of timbre, kung walang so called 'standard sa tone', bakit hindi ka na lang gumamit ng local electric na gawa sa Santa Mesa?  May anim na string naman ang gawa sa santa mesa.  May frets naman.  Pwede i-plug sa amp.  May tuners naman.  May bridge naman kahit papaano.  May volume knob.  May guitar strap button.  Makintab ang pintura.  I will tell you why.... kaya mo kasi bumili ng mas mataas na 'standard'.

I think you have misinterpreted what I mean sa "standard" I dont mean "standard na preference of quality" what I mean about standard is like a "universal tone" set to be "the standard" to be used by all musicians, na kung hindi yun ang gamit mong tone "wala ka sa standard".. in that way, wala ng subjectivity dahil "naka set" na ang "ultimate tone" na wala ng hihigit pa dun.

if ever mangyayari nun, na may mga taong makakapag set nun why not? tanggal ang subjectivity, and lahat tayo magkakatunog na.. magkakaiba nalang sa style at musicianship.. pero sa tone wala ng debate because we are already using the "standard tone".

[firemodel55]

I think you have misinterpreted what I mean sa "standard" I dont mean "standard na preference of quality" what I mean about standard is like a "universal tone" set to be "the standard" to be used by all musicians, na kung hindi yun ang gamit mong tone "wala ka sa standard".. in that way, wala ng subjectivity dahil "naka set" na ang "ultimate tone" na wala ng hihigit pa dun.

if ever mangyayari nun, na may mga taong makakapag set nun why not? tanggal ang subjectivity, and lahat tayo magkakatunog na.. magkakaiba nalang sa style at musicianship.. pero sa tone wala ng debate because we are already using the "standard tone".

I understood what you meant.  That's why I did not mention the quality of local electric guitars made in Santa Mesa.  What I meant, is they don't have 'tone' because  there is a universal tone standard.  You know what, may mga taong makaka set niyon.  Tawagan mo si Billy Gibbons, Robben Ford, Kirk Hammet, Dave Mustaine, John Mayer, BB King, SRV from the dead etc. Subjectivity parati ang dahilan ng mga taong kulang sa exposure.

[cacophony]

Ewan ko lang ha, hindi ko alam kung tama, pero here goes...

Majority kasi ng mga gitara maganda ang tunog pag open string, pero pag umaakyat ka na sa frets, nababawasan na ang volume at sustain (which I presume normal and expected) pero yung gitara na may hiyaw, malakas pa rin ang volume at sustain sa upper register. Sumakto yung combination ng wood ng body at neck na super-responsive sya dun sa frequency ng high notes..

which is rare. IMO

Hataw analogy mo sir analog.matt

This made me intrigued. Thinking of some tech to somehow compensate these losses..

[rockophoria]

I understood what you meant.  That's why I did not mention the quality of local electric guitars made in Santa Mesa.  What I meant, is they don't have 'tone' because  there is a universal tone standard.  You know what, may mga taong makaka set niyon.  Tawagan mo si Billy Gibbons, Robben Ford, Kirk Hammet, Dave Mustaine, John Mayer, BB King, SRV from the dead etc. Subjectivity parati ang dahilan ng mga taong kulang sa exposure.

edi dapat iset na nila, a universal tone, the tone monopoly.. subjectivity will die as soon as a standard is set.. at kahit yung mga taong kulang sa exposure eh madaling makukuha yung tone kahit di maysado ma expose diba? atleast all of us can enjoy the tone..

if they can set it dapat they make it official para tapos na, para no more need for discussions like this, puro appreciative nalang.

[royc]

I don't agree that guitars with hiyaw are comparable to beauty contestants. Yes, all of them may be beautiful physically, but not all have the brains. If guitars with hiyaw are like beauty contestants,  then your basis for hiyaw is only the physical appearance. You should have compared it to a talent show where it doesn't matter what you look like.

I also believe that letting others decide what sounds best for you does not make you someone who knows how to identify a great tone. Heck, if I have the money then I can do the same and claim that I can identify a great tone coz I have guitars that americans told me have the best tone.

[ito_ogami4]

Firemodel maiba ko  bro..tagal ako di napasyal dito ano update sa "GUITAR SHOOT OUT  nyo ni Delta Slim natuloy ba?"
kasi up to   now nasa FAQ..wala naman Ending nakakabitin bro... akala ko panaman maririnig ko na ibat ibang "HIYAW"
post mo video link in case meron!!

And with due respect I dont agree with this bro..there are some Jazz guitarist who uses a tele but they still sound Jazzy..but when Country players use
a Tele they becomes twangy..and some Rock players can make a Tele ROCk,so its a combination of the guitar and the player that will make up a TONE
If you give a 60's strat to a novice and let him play a solo and give Van halen a Chinese Squire...I believe Van halens Solo will have more Tone with respect to
the type of Solo Performed!
>>..
Quote from: firemodel55 on Today at 08:08:08 PM
I understood what you meant.  That's why I did not mention the quality of local electric guitars made in Santa Mesa.  What I meant, is they don't have 'tone' because  there is a universal tone standard.  You know what, may mga taong makaka set niyon.  Tawagan mo si Billy Gibbons, Robben Ford, Kirk Hammet, Dave Mustaine, John Mayer, BB King, SRV from the dead etc. Subjectivity parati ang dahilan ng mga taong kulang sa exposure.

[rockophoria]

basta ako I am more than happy kung magkakaron ng international governing body on tone standard consisting of musicians identified as "having the best tone" at it should be on record (meaning legal entity), tapos lahat ng musicians pwede ipa "certify" yung tone nila to assure them that they are using the standards.

in this way magiging masaya ang music industry kasi ang competition among musician will be on the skill level na.. kumbaga mas fair ito sa mga less privileged kasi skill can be "acquired tru practice and dedication" and hindi na nila kailangan isipin ang tone as long as nasa standard tayo.. this will be the coolest thing.. kung mapapatunayan man nung institution na yun na kailangan mong gumastos sa mahal na gitara at gear para makuha yung standard tone ehdi magset din sila ng "tone compliance" level percentage para kahit yung mga less privileged eh atleast maganda ang tone.

pero hanggat wala yun eh ill stick muna with the "preference approach" since pwede mo namang itweak nalang ulit yung tone mo pag nag shift ka to another genre or style.. hirap kasi yung ganitong may bahid ng subjectivity eh.. walang katapusan.

[pixelwise]

@rockophoria feeling ko di pa rin talaga magegets ni firemodel yang explanation mo. He always insists that good tone is absolute but he never once divulged how to measure and qualify tone. We're all just supposed to take his word for it because he's the one with the exposure, experience and expertise.

[rockophoria]

@rockophoria feeling ko di pa rin talaga magegets ni firemodel yang explanation mo. He always insists that good tone is absolute but he never once divulged how to measure and qualify tone. We're all just supposed to take his word for it because he's the one with the exposure, experience and expertise.

alam mo men I am more than willing na mag consult sa kanya kung talagang he is what he said he is eh, ang problema lang I wanted it to be "legal" and "with credible basis" and "acknowledged internationally" eh kung totoo naman palang nakasalamuha nya yung mga magagaling at credible (at naturuan sya) then why cant he ask them for their support and endorsement to carry their preferred tone for us locally? kumbaga ise-certify sya nung mga "masters of tone" na foreigners to "evangelize" the "right tone"..

eh pero kung yung mga mismong taong nakasalamuha nya nga eh di naman makapag start (or bothered doing) ng legal entity that will dictate tone standards according to their "expertise" para sundan ng buong mundo via "certification" eh bakit ko naman ite-take yung word nya agad agad diba? syempre I have the right to reserve my requirements.. kaya nga hindi ako nagpapadikta and more of an productive exchange lang.

that is unless nga na magkaron ng "standard tone" certification.. because if ever magkaron nga baka si firemodel pa ang unang representative ng pilipinas, at sya ang magkakaron ng unang certification number, by that time solid na ang credibility nya at pwede na syang magpa consultation on tone.. kahit di sya skilled musically eh skilled na sya on tweaking your tone..

or suggesting the right gear for you..

but until then.. until then we are still under the grasp of subjectivity here kahit kaninong lolo natin itanong yan at yan pa rin ang gagamiting bala ng mga musikero (yung sinasabi nyang kulang sa exposure) sa endless debates and tone search nila.
 
di ko na problema kung di nya ako maiintindihan or tawagin nya akong b0b*0 or inexperienced or kung ano ano pa, pero hanggat walang "universal" or "standard" tone at "certification" for achieving it I will continue to be what I am musically.. and tone will always be an unending preference for me, and playing skills will be the one I am going to concentrate on.

[ito_ogami4]

he's the one with the exposure, experience and expertise. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA....

Being exposed to expensive guitar doesnt make one an expert..and having the most expensive and vintage guitar will not make your Tone good!!
If thats the case Firemodel and a lot of rich people ...with his "experience"lLOL and expensive guitars will be a world class guitar player now..Is he??If he is please correct me!

this link explains guitar tone very well..and take note of the highligted words!
http://www.ehow.com/about_6048420_definition-guitar-tone-control.html

Guitar tone control is a vast field with many working parts. Tone is unique to each guitar player and is often more associated with the musician than the songs that are played. Sound quality may be manipulated through the guitar itself, with effects pedals, amplifiers, and more recently digital amplification and effects processors. The process of tone control can be delicate, but an experienced guitar player will use all the tools, from instrument to amplifier, to arrive at the desired sound.



The process of tone control can be delicate, but an experienced guitar player will use all the tools, from instrument to amplifier, to arrive at the desired sound. -

In other words  NO TALENT + EXPENSIVE GUITAR + EXPENSIVE AMP + EXPENSIVE eFFECTS   = BAD TONE

[firemodel55]

edi dapat iset na nila, a universal tone, the tone monopoly.. subjectivity will die as soon as a standard is set.. at kahit yung mga taong kulang sa exposure eh madaling makukuha yung tone kahit di maysado ma expose diba? atleast all of us can enjoy the tone..

if they can set it dapat they make it official para tapos na, para no more need for discussions like this, puro appreciative nalang.

They have already set it.  Bakit may madadagdag ka pa ba?  Or even me for that matter?  Wala. 

The standard has already been set so is Subjectivity more important than the standard?

May mga iba, maski na ma expose ay bingi at hindi marinig.  I do agree that all of us can enjoy tone as long as you don't compare.

[firemodel55]

Firemodel maiba ko  bro..tagal ako di napasyal dito ano update sa "GUITAR SHOOT OUT  nyo ni Delta Slim natuloy ba?"
kasi up to   now nasa FAQ..wala naman Ending nakakabitin bro... akala ko panaman maririnig ko na ibat ibang "HIYAW"
post mo video link in case meron!!

(Nope.  Joric I think is in New York and I got hit by cancer.)

And with due respect I dont agree with this bro..there are some Jazz guitarist who uses a tele but they still sound Jazzy..but when Country players use
a Tele they becomes twangy..and some Rock players can make a Tele ROCk,so its a combination of the guitar and the player that will make up a TONE
If you give a 60's strat to a novice and let him play a solo and give Van halen a Chinese Squire...I believe Van halens Solo will have more Tone with respect to
the type of Solo Performed!

(I did not set any standard for a particular guitar for a particular genre.  Did I?  In fact, I can even show you a tele with single coils sound like a guitar for death metal.  Or even have any of you used an Openhaus on a Vox AC30 to get metal core tones.  I did.  But... and the one big BUTT is that it takes a guitar with hiyaw to cross genres in my experience.)
>>..
Quote from: firemodel55 on Today at 08:08:08 PM
I understood what you meant.  That's why I did not mention the quality of local electric guitars made in Santa Mesa.  What I meant, is they don't have 'tone' because  there is a universal tone standard.  You know what, may mga taong makaka set niyon.  Tawagan mo si Billy Gibbons, Robben Ford, Kirk Hammet, Dave Mustaine, John Mayer, BB King, SRV from the dead etc. Subjectivity parati ang dahilan ng mga taong kulang sa exposure.

[firemodel55]

I don't agree that guitars with hiyaw are comparable to beauty contestants. Yes, all of them may be beautiful physically, but not all have the brains. If guitars with hiyaw are like beauty contestants,  then your basis for hiyaw is only the physical appearance. You should have compared it to a talent show where it doesn't matter what you look like.

(The threadstarter used women as an analogy.  So I used a beauty contest as comparison because it is easier to understand....  Now if you change it to women who know how to sing and look beautiful... then that's more accurate than a talent show.)

I also believe that letting others decide what sounds best for you does not make you someone who knows how to identify a great tone. Heck, if I have the money then I can do the same and claim that I can identify a great tone coz I have guitars that americans told me have the best tone.

(What makes you think that the USA people don't know that I can tell a GREAT sounding guitar?  Its precisely because I know how to tell one that they are forced to send me their best sounding ones to keep my business.)

[firemodel55]

he's the one with the exposure, experience and expertise. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA....

Being exposed to expensive guitar doesnt make one an expert..and having the most expensive and vintage guitar will not make your Tone good!!
If thats the case Firemodel and a lot of rich people ...with his "experience"lLOL and expensive guitars will be a world class guitar player now..Is he??If he is please correct me!  (Teka.... Learn to separate world class guitar player from the tone portion.  I am NOT a world class guitar player because I chose to pursue a different career.  I know lots of people who are not world class guitar player who have great tone in the local scene.  And to quote Yas iwanade, 50% of artists he works with don't know or hear good tone.)

this link explains guitar tone very well..and take note of the highligted words!
http://www.ehow.com/about_6048420_definition-guitar-tone-control.html

Guitar tone control is a vast field with many working parts. Tone is unique to each guitar player and is often more associated with the musician than the songs that are played. Sound quality may be manipulated through the guitar itself, with effects pedals, amplifiers, and more recently digital amplification and effects processors. The process of tone control can be delicate, but an experienced guitar player will use all the tools, from instrument to amplifier, to arrive at the desired sound.   (You are talking about timbre.  And as I stated before in other threads, timbre is only a small portion of What a Great Guitar is.)



The process of tone control can be delicate, but an experienced guitar player will use all the tools, from instrument to amplifier, to arrive at the desired sound. (I might not be a gigging musician or paid by any means of music but don't assume I am not experienced in guitars, amps, and effects.  I was probably using tube amps before you started to learn your first chord.) -

In other words  NO TALENT + EXPENSIVE GUITAR + EXPENSIVE AMP + EXPENSIVE eFFECTS   = BAD TONE

(Don't assume that I don't have the EARS to determine good tone because you are in for a disappointment.)

[firemodel55]

basta ako I am more than happy kung magkakaron ng international governing body on tone standard consisting of musicians identified as "having the best tone" at it should be on record (meaning legal entity), tapos lahat ng musicians pwede ipa "certify" yung tone nila to assure them that they are using the standards.

in this way magiging masaya ang music industry kasi ang competition among musician will be on the skill level na.. kumbaga mas fair ito sa mga less privileged kasi skill can be "acquired tru practice and dedication" and hindi na nila kailangan isipin ang tone as long as nasa standard tayo.. this will be the coolest thing.. kung mapapatunayan man nung institution na yun na kailangan mong gumastos sa mahal na gitara at gear para makuha yung standard tone ehdi magset din sila ng "tone compliance" level percentage para kahit yung mga less privileged eh atleast maganda ang tone.

pero hanggat wala yun eh ill stick muna with the "preference approach" since pwede mo namang itweak nalang ulit yung tone mo pag nag shift ka to another genre or style.. hirap kasi yung ganitong may bahid ng subjectivity eh.. walang katapusan.

rockophoria,

Just to clarify so that we will have direction in our thread, what do YOU PERSONALLY define 'tone standard' to mean?  If you mean, timbre than I am afraid I meant something else with regards to HIYAW.  For example, I can take a Telecaster with HIYAW, rip out the single coils, install high output Bare Knuckles or WCR humbuckers.  Take out the ashtray bridge and install a Floyd Rose.  Change to Jumbo Frets and change the radius of the fingerboard and the neck to something flatter.  Use Angela Caps and Callaham pots.  Spray paint it black and play metal on it completely changing the timbre but more less retaining the HIYAW. 

[firemodel55]

This made me intrigued. Thinking of some tech to somehow compensate these losses..

Yup mayroon.  Mag switch ka sa keyboard.

[firemodel55]

@rockophoria feeling ko di pa rin talaga magegets ni firemodel yang explanation mo. He always insists that good tone is absolute but he never once divulged how to measure and qualify tone. We're all just supposed to take his word for it because he's the one with the exposure, experience and expertise.

Yup.... I already gave you a measure -- HIYAW.  Unfortunately, if there was some scientific way, I would invent a machine to measure hiyaw.  Kaso wala.  Its just my EARs and my heart.  Sorry.  But that's what exposure, experience and expertise with GREAT gear does with a set of good ears.

[ito_ogami4]

(Don't assume that I don't have the EARS to determine good tone because you are in for a disappointment.)

NO man its not your ears that is in question but your perception that "Subjectivity parati ang dahilan ng mga taong kulang sa exposure."
music is subjective man..Tone is subjective or else we will be listening to an unending string of a UNIFORMED TYPE OF MUSIC...
the vibrato produced by Clapton is different from the vibrato produced by BB KING even if they use the same guitar...Im sure of it..
Nobody's questioning your ears it just that you put too much emphasis  on the quality of the guitar than the player  for the Tone it will produce..
Its a combination of both...and more on the PLAYER SIDE.

J.M.T.C.

[firemodel55]

(Don't assume that I don't have the EARS to determine good tone because you are in for a disappointment.)

NO man its not your ears that is in question but your perception that "Subjectivity parati ang dahilan ng mga taong kulang sa exposure."
music is subjective man..Tone is subjective or else we will be listening to a unending string of a UNIFORMED TYPE OF MUSIC...
the vibrato produced by Clapton is different from the vibrato produced by BB KING even if they use the same guitar...Im sure of it..
Nobody's questioning your ears it just that you put too much emphasis  on the quality of the guitar than the player  for the Tone it will produce..
Its a combination of both...and more on the PLAYER SIDE.

J.M.T.C.

Again, let me repeat.  HIYAW is not just restricted to measuring TIMBRE.  HIYAW measures a GREAT guitar from the rest of the 95% bad sounding guitars out there.  You can take the same  GREAT SOUNDING guitar AND PLUG it into 1) my Vox AC30 and sound like the early Beatles, and 2) a 1972 Marshall Super Lead and sound like early Van Halen, 3) into a Soldano SLO 100 and sound like Van Halen F.U.C.K. album, 4) into a Diezel Herbert and sound like Tool or Metallica, or 5) into a Bruno Super 100 and sound like Larry Carlton or Robben Ford or 6) a Marshall 25th anniversary and sound like Slash, etc.

The irony it seems, is that the players you mention place more emphasis on their gear more than their hands.  None of those you mentioned ever said in any interview that their hands as TONE generators were more important than their gear.  In fact, if anything they had their favorite Number One guitars and Signature Series (BB King with Lucille and Clapton with Blackie) 

[Bolt Thrower]

Agree.... Kung pinanonood mo ang nakaraan na Binibinang Pilipinas, wala kang makikitang Aling Dionisya o Vice Ganda na itsurang contestant.  May minimum standard.  Ngayon alam natin ay karamihan ng babae sa Pinas ay hindi kasing ganda ng sumama sa Binibining Pilipinas --- though among them may mas maganda at mas may panget (which to me is kanya kanya).  Of course mayroon rin naliligaw sa mga contestants but ALL of us will agree na hindi dapat maging Top 5 ang nanay ni Pacquaio. 

Back to the guitar analogy, ang mga gitarang may hiyaw ay pang Binibinang Pilipinas material while ang gitarang walang hiyaw which is around 95% of guitars out there, ay pang Aling Dionisya.

hahhahahahahahahahahahaha!

[cacophony]

Yup mayroon.  Mag switch ka sa keyboard.

Nice option. Lahat po ba ng keyboard may "hiyaw"?

[ito_ogami4]

The irony it seems, is that the players you mention place more emphasis on their gear more than their hands.  None of those you mentioned ever said in any interview that their hands as TONE generators were more important than their gear.  In fact, if anything they had their favorite Number One guitars and Signature Series (BB King with Lucille and Clapton with Blackie) 


Thats called HUmility man ,The reason for that is people already knows that they are Talented individuals
But do you agree that even if Clapton used  a Lucille guitar  he will not sound exactly the same as BB AND VICE VERSA....



B You can take the same  GREAT SOUNDING guitar AND PLUG it into 1) my Vox AC30 and sound like the early Beatles, and 2) a 1972 Marshall Super Lead and sound like early Van Halen, 3) into a Soldano SLO 100 and sound like Van Halen F.U.C.K. album, 4)



So are you saying if  YOU(fIREMODEL55) HAVE   GREAT SOUNDING guitar AND PLUG it into a 1972 Marshall Super Lead YOU WILL SOUND LIKE  early Van Halen,

I dont think so man...kahit TONE ni Minyong mahihirapan ka gayahin kahit ano pa gamitin mong guitar..coz its unique to him...

So how can something with a HUMAN FACTOR involved have a standard Baseline...

[guitarbrat]

iba ang "hiyaw" sa tone. hindi lahat ng gitara may "hiyaw", pero lahat ng gitara may tone (crappy tone man yan or awesome tone).

Yup, "hiyaw" is a great tone right? And still. May kanya kanya pa rin.