hulika

Author Topic: Dissecting HIYAW... the science, the psycho-acoustic nature, and the fallacies  (Read 44899 times)

Offline skunkyfunk

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Brace yourself, this is a LONG post.

If you have an idea of  'hiyaw', probably you have seen firemodel's early ramblings in this forum.

(NOTE:  This thread is meant to focus on HIYAW, and its role in our quest for the ultimate guitar.  The science and the myths need to be unveiled.  NO FIGHTING, PLEASE!)


First off,  in my own limited understanding, I can deduce what I think HIYAW is most mistaken as...

1) HIYAW is NOT sustain.    A good guitar WITH hiyaw would most likely have good sustain.  But the converse is not true.  A guitar with good sustain is simply, a guitar that has good energy transfer from the strings to the whole guitar, that yields favorable ADSR (attack -decay - sustain  -release) traits but not necessarily what 'hiyaw' is.

2.  HIYAW is NOT compression. When a guitar 'compresses' well, I think this is best described as a guitar that makes your softer attacks louder, and makes your louder attacks less harsh.  IMO, a good guitar that exhibits 'compression' is a guitar that has inherently good response, coupled with good electronics.

3.  HIYAW is NOT resonance.  Any guitar, has a resonant frequency, meaning, it will exhibit its loudest perceivable 'volume' when it puts out its resonant frequency.  Pickups have a resonant peak, and the interplay of frequencies and harmonics of the guitar itself yield a resonant frequency for the guitar.  Once you strike that note, the guitar would appear to have great sustain...

Now what is HIYAW to me...

'Hiyaw' in my understanding, is a trait of a guitar that exhibits GREAT SUSTAIN, that highlights the DYNAMICS of your playing, that seems to have the ability to RING OUT (or resonate) MAJORITY OR ALL THE NOTES on the guitar.  When you do a bend on one fret, the same characteristic should be exhibited on all other frets. And what does that mean?  IT RESONATES ALL ACROSS THE FRETBOARD. And because of that, you can hear that undeniable 'swirl' that most people call it.  THAT swirl, IS  'hiyaw'.  

I guess you remember this experiment back in grade school: Get two tuning forks of the same pitch, and hit one of them and place them a foot apart from each other; the result is, the other one will vibrate in resonance with the other!  If you line up all tuning forks with the same harmonic traits (usually even-ordered), you can actually make a single note sustain in the whole room with an unspeakable richness to it when all the tuning forks resonate with each other.  This is also similar to George Martin's approach to recording piano, where he stuffs 3 grand pianos in the studio and slams a single chord, so the 2 other pianos would resonate with the one being played.

Now what does this have to do with guitars?  IMO, a guitar with 'hiyaw' is a guitar that can exhibit overtones in a way that creates very rich tones.   And this has nothing to do with humbuckers or single coils... It is a trait from the PHYSICAL build of the guitar.

Hiyaw is a trait exhibited by VERY FEW guitars.  IMO, it is not endemic to boutique or topodollar custom guitars. And also, take note that they can also NOT be inherent in expensive guitars.  The science to hiyaw is not very much known to man.  All I know is that, I can hear it when it's there.  But it is hard to find.  In my experience as a recording dude, I would say out of 100 guitars I've heard, maybe 1 or 2 had it.  And they ain't necessarily the most expensive ones.  

Hiyaw is best heard in an A/B test.  Recording it is NOT simply possible.  Why?  Because even recording equipment cannot capture all the overtones; you may be able to record the timbre or voice of the guitar rig, but you cannot simply capture the swirly effect.  

-----------------


And the question:  Would you spend the extra thousands of $$$ with recommendation from tone gurus, to get hiyaw?  Hey, maybe you can try 100 cheap guitars in a store and maybe be able to get one with hiyaw.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2011, 10:22:06 PM by skunkyfunk »

Offline pitongjerome

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from what i understand about hiyaw:

ito yung minumuwestra ni FM55 sa video niya... the first time i saw that gesture ay kay arie, kausap ko siya nung pinapa check up ko guitar ko, and he let me hear his tele.. same gesture..
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline skunkyfunk

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from what i understand about hiyaw:

ito yung minumuwestra ni FM55 sa video niya... the first time i saw that gesture ay kay arie, kausap ko siya nung pinapa check up ko guitar ko, and he let me hear his tele.. same gesture..

Can you elaborate man? I am interested in how he explained it to you.

Offline pitongjerome

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Can you elaborate man? I am interested in how he explained it to you.

well, its like 2-3 years ago.. the only thing i remembered was this:

i complained about the buzz that can be heard unplugged (1 fret only) but plugged into his mesa boogie amp, hindi na rinig.

then he showed me his tele. he did let me hear the buzz, unplugged. its was a lot worse than my PRS SE. but damn, plugged it into his amp and it SCREAMS like crazy. and he said "para umiikot na tunog sa tenga mo" like FM55's gesture, parehong pareho.. although i dont hear it swirling (i dont know how a sound swirls) i agree that it screams.

all i can remember is that Arie told me that he was in search of a guitar that SUSTAINS WITHOUT TOO MUCH GAIN. and found it in his tele. he then told me a story about his friend that got inspired with his tele, who had a custom made guitar made from really good materials, mga 60k+ na ang nagastos, but doesnt have that scream.

he then complimented my guitar that i was lucky because it sounded well, and sustains well. he tested it and did bends with it, big bends if i may say, much like what FM55 was doing with the vid.
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline skunkyfunk

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well, its like 2-3 years ago.. the only thing i remembered was this:

i complained about the buzz that can be heard unplugged (1 fret only) but plugged into his mesa boogie amp, hindi na rinig.

then he showed me his tele. he did let me hear the buzz, unplugged. its was a lot worse than my PRS SE. but damn, plugged it into his amp and it SCREAMS like crazy. and he said "para umiikot na tunog sa tenga mo" like FM55's gesture, parehong pareho.. although i dont hear it swirling (i dont know how a sound swirls) i agree that it screams.

all i can remember is that Arie told me that he was in search of a guitar that SUSTAINS WITHOUT TOO MUCH GAIN. and found it in his tele. he then told me a story about his friend that got inspired with his tele, who had a custom made guitar made from really good materials, mga 60k+ na ang nagastos, but doesnt have that scream.

he then complimented my guitar that i was lucky because it sounded well, and sustains well. he tested it and did bends with it, big bends if i may say, much like what FM55 was doing with the vid.

The problem with the statement, 'umiikot sa tenga mo' is that, iba-iba rin tenga natin, physically, and by perception.  But then, that 'scream' that sounds like you have a 'snowball effect' of overtones (hence sustain) is hiyaw. 


Offline trem3

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Hiyaw? napanood ko na ito sir...

Dami pang naging sequel...
Click Here

Offline skunkyfunk

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Hiyaw? napanood ko na ito sir...

Dami pang naging sequel...

Yup but the disclaimer says NO FIGHTING. :D

Offline trem3

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Yup but the disclaimer says NO FIGHTING. :D

Sorry sir...

Pero yun nga kayo na nagsabi na iba-iba ang tenga natin, para sa akin may hiyaw gitara ko... May naririnig ako. I don't know kung maririnig mo rin.

Ang pinch harmonic ba hiyaw? Pagnakakarinig ako ng pinch harmonics parang hiyaw sya sa tenga ko eh, with matching vibrato...

Check out Co Ca's Welcome Home intro... parang hiyaw eh... hindi ba?
Click Here

Offline pitongjerome

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The problem with the statement, 'umiikot sa tenga mo' is that, iba-iba rin tenga natin, physically, and by perception.  But then, that 'scream' that sounds like you have a 'snowball effect' of overtones (hence sustain) is hiyaw. 

well, i can describe that it really makes hiyaw, (screaming, literally speaking)..  which for me is like a swelling sustain of some sort..

but.. i don't really find it special (if that's the real hiyaw as Arie described).. some might like that swelling sustain, or not..
_____________________________________

what i dont like about these topics is that if you don't have that characteristic in your guitar, somebody would say your guitars are crap.

next thing, if you don't hear what they are hearing (for example, swirl, hiyaw) about their $10,000 gear and not understand why there is a hype about it, they'd say your ears are noob..
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline j-sonic

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i agree that more expensive guitars sometimes do not exude hiyaw.i've got a homebuilt guitar that plays better than and has more tone than my more expensive original guitars.sometimes my original branded guitars exude more NGIYAW than HIYAW.hehe
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Offline posera!!

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well, its like 2-3 years ago.. the only thing i remembered was this:

i complained about the buzz that can be heard unplugged (1 fret only) but plugged into his mesa boogie amp, hindi na rinig.

then he showed me his tele. he did let me hear the buzz, unplugged. its was a lot worse than my PRS SE. but damn, plugged it into his amp and it SCREAMS like crazy. and he said "para umiikot na tunog sa tenga mo" like FM55's gesture, parehong pareho.. although i dont hear it swirling (i dont know how a sound swirls) i agree that it screams.

all i can remember is that Arie told me that he was in search of a guitar that SUSTAINS WITHOUT TOO MUCH GAIN. and found it in his tele. he then told me a story about his friend that got inspired with his tele, who had a custom made guitar made from really good materials, mga 60k+ na ang nagastos, but doesnt have that scream.

he then complimented my guitar that i was lucky because it sounded well, and sustains well. he tested it and did bends with it, big bends if i may say, much like what FM55 was doing with the vid.

my strat also have buzz sa isang fret pag naka unplug pero pag naka plug na sa amp hinde mo na maririneg  :-D
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Offline prince22

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Naiimagine ko parang automatic na gradual bending of notes pag sustain? Hahaha.

Offline jeo

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aside from guitar hospital, who are the authorities who can approve or 100% validate if a certain guitar has this "hiyaw"?
>Use your ears, dont worry about the hype!>"Not everything that counts can be measured and not everything you can measure counts">TECHNIQUE is in the FINGERS & TONE is more in the GEAR>HIYAW, if you didnt get it, its your problem not mine>killed ur killer

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aside from guitar hospital, who are the authorities who can approve or 100% validate if a certain guitar has this "hiyaw"?

I noticed most luthiers could due to the nature of their work as they're exposed to a lot of guitars everyday; which they get to try and play. Besides Arie, Micsis (Mike) and Jun Castro can also tell. :-)


Offline stringman

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For me, hiyaw is overall balance on the fretboard.
But if it is termed hiyaw here in our shores, what is the term they use in other countries?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 06:07:18 AM by stringman »
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones.


Offline orangeogre

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I've met arie only once. That was when i went to his place to get something i bought from alex. When i was there. Arie demoed his tele to me. He didnt say anything about the "hiyaw" thing but he did mention a nice trait of a good sounding guitar. He said that if you bend a string, it should get louder, then he demoed it with his tele. Hindi ko alam kung ito ba yung hiyaw.

Offline spankyrigor

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He said that if you bend a string, it should get louder, then he demoed it with his tele.

I remember somebody mentioned this as a definition of hiyaw, pero I'd attribute it to the resonances of the room itself, more than anything. Also you'll probably notice that it doesn't happen everywhere on the fretboard; only on some choice notes. It means that the room resonates to that frequency.

To illustrate: My Tokai LP exhibiting this trait a few years ago in my old apartment. LP >> tubescreamer >> AC15 clone. The bent notes just bloomed at around the 12th to 15th fret, and even my wife could tell the difference.

Fast forward to today, in my new apartment. New room, same guitar, same setup. No bloom.

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Offline skrumian

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kelangan mo ba talaga ng "hiyaw" para maging maganda ang tunog mo?  :-D
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Offline firemodel55

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I remember somebody mentioned this as a definition of hiyaw, pero I'd attribute it to the resonances of the room itself, more than anything. Also you'll probably notice that it doesn't happen everywhere on the fretboard; only on some choice notes. It means that the room resonates to that frequency.

To illustrate: My Tokai LP exhibiting this trait a few years ago in my old apartment. LP >> tubescreamer >> AC15 clone. The bent notes just bloomed at around the 12th to 15th fret, and even my wife could tell the difference.

Fast forward to today, in my new apartment. New room, same guitar, same setup. No bloom.



Just to clarify my experience with hiyaw -- it happens in all rooms if your guitar has it.  It happens on all notes. 

Offline brandey

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Meron bang certain recorded song or guitar solo ng famous artist na maririnig natin ung example ng hiyaw ng isang guitar? Ilang taon na ko dito sa PM di ko parin ma gets tong HIYAW na to :?

Offline firemodel55

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Brace yourself, this is a LONG post.

If you have an idea of  'hiyaw', probably you have seen firemodel's early ramblings in this forum.

(NOTE:  This thread is meant to focus on HIYAW, and its role in our quest for the ultimate guitar.  The science and the myths need to be unveiled.  NO FIGHTING, PLEASE!)


First off,  in my own limited understanding, I can deduce what I think HIYAW is most mistaken as...

1) HIYAW is NOT sustain.    A good guitar WITH hiyaw would most likely have good sustain.  But the converse is not true.  A guitar with good sustain is simply, a guitar that has good energy transfer from the strings to the whole guitar, that yields favorable ADSR (attack -decay - sustain  -release) traits but not necessarily what 'hiyaw' is.

2.  HIYAW is NOT compression. When a guitar 'compresses' well, I think this is best described as a guitar that makes your softer attacks louder, and makes your louder attacks less harsh.  IMO, a good guitar that exhibits 'compression' is a guitar that has inherently good response, coupled with good electronics.

3.  HIYAW is NOT resonance.  Any guitar, has a resonant frequency, meaning, it will exhibit its loudest perceivable 'volume' when it puts out its resonant frequency.  Pickups have a resonant peak, and the interplay of frequencies and harmonics of the guitar itself yield a resonant frequency for the guitar.  Once you strike that note, the guitar would appear to have great sustain...

Now what is HIYAW to me...

'Hiyaw' in my understanding, is a trait of a guitar that exhibits GREAT SUSTAIN, that highlights the DYNAMICS of your playing, that seems to have the ability to RING OUT (or resonate) MAJORITY OR ALL THE NOTES on the guitar.  When you do a bend on one fret, the same characteristic should be exhibited on all other frets. And what does that mean?  IT RESONATES ALL ACROSS THE FRETBOARD. And because of that, you can hear that undeniable 'swirl' that most people call it.  THAT swirl, IS  'hiyaw'.  

I guess you remember this experiment back in grade school: Get two tuning forks of the same pitch, and hit one of them and place them a foot apart from each other; the result is, the other one will vibrate in resonance with the other!  If you line up all tuning forks with the same harmonic traits (usually even-ordered), you can actually make a single note sustain in the whole room with an unspeakable richness to it when all the tuning forks resonate with each other.  This is also similar to George Martin's approach to recording piano, where he stuffs 3 grand pianos in the studio and slams a single chord, so the 2 other pianos would resonate with the one being played.

Now what does this have to do with guitars?  IMO, a guitar with 'hiyaw' is a guitar that can exhibit overtones in a way that creates very rich tones.   And this has nothing to do with humbuckers or single coils... It is a trait from the PHYSICAL build of the guitar.

Hiyaw is a trait exhibited by VERY FEW guitars.  IMO, it is not endemic to boutique or topodollar custom guitars. And also, take note that they can also NOT be inherent in expensive guitars.  The science to hiyaw is not very much known to man.  All I know is that, I can hear it when it's there.  But it is hard to find.  In my experience as a recording dude, I would say out of 100 guitars I've heard, maybe 1 or 2 had it.  And they ain't necessarily the most expensive ones.  

Hiyaw is best heard in an A/B test.  Recording it is NOT simply possible.  Why?  Because even recording equipment cannot capture all the overtones; you may be able to record the timbre or voice of the guitar rig, but you cannot simply capture the swirly effect.  

-----------------


And the question:  Would you spend the extra thousands of $$$ with recommendation from tone gurus, to get hiyaw?  Hey, maybe you can try 100 cheap guitars in a store and maybe be able to get one with hiyaw.

Nice attempt at a discussion.  I just want to add that HIYAW more than anything for me is used as an indicator for other properties that I look for in a guitar -- increased sustain, richness in the notes, effortless playing, big sounding single note lines, ringing chords, pleasing EQ curve, clear ADSR properties, etc.

In terms of percentage of getting a guitar with hiyaw, there is a higher percentage of getting it on expensive guitars and a much lower percentage on cheaper guitars.  And there is a minimum threshold to achieve it.  I have not heard the property on a new (mint) guitar that costs less than P50k at full retail prices.  Second hand is another case however where anything goes.

Offline firemodel55

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Meron bang certain recorded song or guitar solo ng famous artist na maririnig natin ung example ng hiyaw ng isang guitar? Ilang taon na ko dito sa PM di ko parin ma gets tong HIYAW na to :?

Have to hear it for yourself ...  I believe its one of those aspects that differentiates live music from recorded music.

Offline teleclem

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But if it is termed hiyaw here in our shores, what is the term they use in other countries?

Interested in knowing as well.

Offline firemodel55

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i agree that more expensive guitars sometimes do not exude hiyaw.i've got a homebuilt guitar that plays better than and has more tone than my more expensive original guitars.sometimes my original branded guitars exude more NGIYAW than HIYAW.hehe

Those expensive guitar THAT do have it, exude it more than cheapo guitars.