hulika

Author Topic: How do you make the sound "bigger" ?  (Read 3386 times)

Offline BAMF

  • Board Moderator
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« on: June 06, 2006, 01:20:37 PM »
Okay guys, ako naman uli tatanong.

So say I'm ready to take the next step without doing major revisions on my setup (powered mixer, Athlon 2400+ DAW, adobe audition, a possible m-audio A/D).

Now with my first attempt at a mix, the feedback was "ok, pero manipis".

Now the question : How do I make the sound sound "bigger" ?
Doghouse Recording Studio: http://doghousestudio.webs.com
Cel: 09282843633

Offline KitC

  • Prime Moderator
  • *****
Re: How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2006, 01:44:42 PM »
Quote from: BAMF

Now the question : How do I make the sound sound "bigger" ?


Beware the dark side of.... compression.
Sonar 4.04PE/5.2PE/7.02PE/8.31 PE, Project 5 v2.5.1, EmulatorX 1.5, Cubase SL2, Ableton Live 7.14,  Intel Q6600 MSI P43 Neo 4Gb Crucial Ballistix Tracer DDR2-800, Emu 1820m, Yamaha DSP Factory, Terratec DMX 6fire

Offline skunkyfunk

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2006, 11:13:12 PM »
RECORDING is spelled as R E C

R is for Reverb
E is for Equalization
C is for Compression

Put them together = Recording  :lol:

(Big sounds = depth)  Use the aforementioned to add depth...

Offline leech

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2006, 03:23:16 AM »
skunkyfunk Posted: 06-06-2006 11:13 PM    Post subject:  
 
Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
RECORDING is spelled as R E C

R is for Reverb
E is for Equalization
C is for Compression

Put them together = Recording  

(Big sounds = depth) Use the aforementioned to add depth...


sir, what brands of Reverb, EQ, Compression with good quality and most of all ...affordable can you recommend?  (for the budgeted)  :D
...the strong take from the weak...but the wise take from the strong...

Offline abyssinianson

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2006, 03:27:12 PM »
lexicon and alesis have some very good entry level rackmount units that you can use for your tracks as far as reverb goes.

for EQ, there is a variety of Behringer and Alesis models in the parametric models that you can look at.

for compression, alesis, behringer, and RNP have great sounding units that can help smooth out your sound.
ako si mimordz. 友だちからよろしくです!


Offline af_villaruel

  • Forum Fanatic
  • ****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2006, 04:15:43 PM »
I wouldn't dare to claim to know much about recording... pero one thing I've noticed that makes the sound "bigger" is to multitrack a sound source and make it stereo... it gives you the notion of space.

For example, I have recorded electric guitar parts sa SoundKitchen Studios. What we did was to put a mic sa center nung amp and another one around a few feet away to capture the ambient sound. Mix the two tracks together (coming from the two mics used), voila!!!  :lol: Don't forget the reverb, EQ, and a touch of compression, of course.

Offline leech

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2006, 10:48:34 PM »
af_villaruel Posted: 06-07-2006 04:15 PM    Post subject:  
 
Quote

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
I wouldn't dare to claim to know much about recording... pero one thing I've noticed that makes the sound "bigger" is to multitrack a sound source and make it stereo... it gives you the notion of space.

For example, I have recorded electric guitar parts sa SoundKitchen Studios. What we did was to put a mic sa center nung amp and another one around a few feet away to capture the ambient sound. Mix the two tracks together (coming from the two mics used), voila!!!  Don't forget the reverb, EQ, and a touch of compression, of course.


ah ok... parang pagpapatungin yung both guitars para kumapal.... i surfed the net and saw some reverb, EQ, COMP racks and ranges from $100 - $200.... ok na kaya yun?  terms of quality and durability?
...the strong take from the weak...but the wise take from the strong...

Offline KitC

  • Prime Moderator
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2006, 11:35:49 PM »
Quote from: leech
ah ok... parang pagpapatungin yung both guitars para kumapal.... i surfed the net and saw some reverb, EQ, COMP racks and ranges from $100 - $200.... ok na kaya yun?  terms of quality and durability?


In terms of hardware, $200 will only get you so far and if you're able to score a reverb, eq, and compressor for a total of $200, be prepared to hear things like 'you get what you pay for' and 'caveat emptor'. As an example, Lexicon is one of the better known brands when it comes to reverb and their low end consumer unit (MPX-200) is already $200.

Given a choice, I would choose software over hardware simply because the really good sounding hardware units cost in upwards of a thousand dollars. If I were to choose which software offers all three capabilities (reverb, eq, and compression) and is close to $200, it would be Izotope Ozone.
Sonar 4.04PE/5.2PE/7.02PE/8.31 PE, Project 5 v2.5.1, EmulatorX 1.5, Cubase SL2, Ableton Live 7.14,  Intel Q6600 MSI P43 Neo 4Gb Crucial Ballistix Tracer DDR2-800, Emu 1820m, Yamaha DSP Factory, Terratec DMX 6fire

Offline leech

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #8 on: June 08, 2006, 12:05:59 AM »
KitC Posted: 06-07-2006 11:35 PM    Post subject:  
 
Quote
In terms of hardware, $200 will only get you so far and if you're able to score a reverb, eq, and compressor for a total of $200, be prepared to hear things like 'you get what you pay for' and 'caveat emptor'. As an example, Lexicon is one of the better known brands when it comes to reverb and their low end consumer unit (MPX-200) is already $200.

Given a choice, I would choose software over hardware simply because the really good sounding hardware units cost in upwards of a thousand dollars. If I were to choose which software offers all three capabilities (reverb, eq, and compression) and is close to $200, it would be Izotope Ozone.


Kit, i meant $200 each...hehe!! and having a software for EQ's, reverb and COmp's crossed my mind too... :D
...the strong take from the weak...but the wise take from the strong...

Offline KitC

  • Prime Moderator
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #9 on: June 08, 2006, 12:44:51 AM »
Quote from: leech
Kit, i meant $200 each...hehe!! and having a software for EQ's, reverb and COmp's crossed my mind too... :D


Well, now... at least you clarified that. So we got $600 to spend on...

Again, if it were up to me, I'd spend $399 on a UAD-1 Project Pak which already comes stock with some good reverb/comp/eq soft and use the $200 on either an LA-2A, Pultec EQ, or EMT-140 reverb; or I could use the $200 on a really good soundcard.

But that's just me... choices, choices. hehe

My candidate for a very good hardware compressor (highly recommended by SoS and EM) costing $200 would be FMR Audio's RNC 1773. For EQ, maybe the dbx 231 but I personally haven't heard it to be able to give a qualified opinion. And for reverbs, the previously mentioned MPX-200 - the reverbs are good but not even close to the PCM series also by Lexicon.
Sonar 4.04PE/5.2PE/7.02PE/8.31 PE, Project 5 v2.5.1, EmulatorX 1.5, Cubase SL2, Ableton Live 7.14,  Intel Q6600 MSI P43 Neo 4Gb Crucial Ballistix Tracer DDR2-800, Emu 1820m, Yamaha DSP Factory, Terratec DMX 6fire

Offline Sound Weavers

  • Senior Member
  • ***
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2006, 06:31:22 AM »
I second KitC on FMR's RNC. Talk about bang for the buck - RNC is it.

Quote from: KitC

My candidate for a very good hardware compressor (highly recommended by SoS and EM) costing $200 would be FMR Audio's RNC 1773. For EQ, maybe the dbx 231 but I personally haven't heard it to be able to give a qualified opinion. And for reverbs, the previously mentioned MPX-200 - the reverbs are good but not even close to the PCM series also by Lexicon.

Offline starfugger

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2006, 08:48:57 AM »
yes Kit, the UAD-1 is indeed a fine investment.  people are singing praises over the Neve 1073 EQ as being the best software eq ever.  very close to the hardware according to a lot of people, but of course that's beside the point.  the important part is, faithful or not, it is an excellent software product that can compete with lower-end and mid-priced hardware eq.

i have personally tried the UAD-1 LA2A, Pultec, etc.  the 1176LN is a wonderful piece for stuff like drums and such.  I can say that the LA2A is the best vocal compressor i've tried hands down.    

as to making the finished mix sound BIG, multiband compression, equalization, and limiting helps.  basically, these are the elements of MASTERING.  so maybe reading up on mastering books might help.  There's a free pdf file in Izotope Ozone's site about mastering. a lot of people recommend Bob Katz's (or is that Bob Ludwig's?) book.  

afvillaruel is right.  we used multi micing techniques to make the guitars sound a little wider.  also, i just finished a project with parts compressed quite heavily, using parallel compression, a lot of UAD-1 1176LN, LA2A, Fairchild, and EQ'd using the 1073.  it sounded heavier than most of the stuff i mix.  then tried another more conservative mixing technique on another song (less compression, more EQ, no 1073), and ended up with a finished mixed that was a bit lighter. in the end i needed to use mastering EQ and compression  on the second song to make it less "anemic" compared to the first mix.  so my take on making it sound BIGGER is to mix it BIG, and then master it big, and not just leave all the work to the mastering engineer :)
FOR RENT: Canon 550D, Canon 60D, Glidecam (Machinist), Toribio Slider EX with a pair of tripods for mounting, 2 1000W Lights with 9ft stands, Zoom H4, Rode Video Mic, Portable LED Lights 09154574744

Offline abyssinianson

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2006, 09:15:20 AM »
I can vouch for the RNC. I use 2 for general purpose compression. I just got a couple of EL Distressors and although they offer good soft-knee compression, I think I am much more accustomed to the feel and response of my RNCs for most of my hardware compression needs. I mainly use the Distressors for drum compressions since that is where I learned to use them in the first place.

Bang for the buck, the RNC is at the top of my heap because it is very flexible, clean, and does not color your signal at all as far as I can tell.

The UAD stuff is very good as well and I am very impressed with the work that the company puts into their products. Kit, Hazel, UA just released the first installment of the Neve plugins. It may be a while until I get them but they are no doubt excellent additions to the plugs you already have.
ako si mimordz. 友だちからよろしくです!

Offline KitC

  • Prime Moderator
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2006, 09:30:32 AM »
Remember that you also have to pair all these mastering techniques with a good monitoring system. I used to have these Altec Lansing computer surround monitors with subwoofer and they really sounded terrific. That was until I found out my mixes were bass heavy on those; turns out there was a dip at the crossover frequency going to the sub. It's one of the reasons I got myself some Fostex monitors (they were on sale but they sound surprisingly good!). I would burn a cd and listen to the mix with a mono monitor, a boombox and the car stereo. If the mix sounds good in all three as well as on my present monitors, then I would declare a good mix.

I second Hazel's recommendation on multi-band compression. The Sonitus multiband in Sonar gets a lot of use in my tracks. Beware of the loudness wars, though. Too much compression will kill the overall dynamics and make the song tiring to the ear.

Stay away from the BBE Sonic Maximizer! It sounds good at first, but the upper harmonics it adds tends to sound brittle and harsh after a while. Peavey, OTOH, makes a hardware enhancer called the Kosmos Pro, which gives that added oomph! to a mix. I've read that it sounds way better than the BBE.

@abyss - word on those Distressors! For certain types of vocals, they can give you that edge.
Sonar 4.04PE/5.2PE/7.02PE/8.31 PE, Project 5 v2.5.1, EmulatorX 1.5, Cubase SL2, Ableton Live 7.14,  Intel Q6600 MSI P43 Neo 4Gb Crucial Ballistix Tracer DDR2-800, Emu 1820m, Yamaha DSP Factory, Terratec DMX 6fire

Offline abyssinianson

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2006, 10:47:54 AM »
Yep..the distressors are very good. I am working on some Industrial type music right now mixed in with a bit of electronica and they are getting a bit of use along with some tube saturation plugs for a gritty feel.
ako si mimordz. 友だちからよろしくです!

Offline chuck sabbath

  • Forum Fanatic
  • ****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #15 on: June 08, 2006, 11:08:43 AM »
dudes maybe were getting a little ahead of ourselves here; i mean you have the guy spending all that money already when a little judicious tweaking of his current plugins will probably help make his mix "bigger"

im not a working engineer/producer so take this advise with "however many a grains of salt" as you wish :wink: also i dont know your (original poster) level of experience so, sorry if you know all this already

doubling the guitar parts can make it seem bigger nga but if its the exact same track it can actually make it seem smaller cause of phase cancellation; you can get around this by re-recording the track using slightly different eq settings, mic placement, gain settings. also the impossibility of getting the 2nd take exactly identical to the first will introduce slight variations in pitch/tone/etc which will help the illusion of width

compression can either make or break your track also. too much can squash the dynamics out of your mixes; too little and it could lack in punch. i tend to compress each instruments seperately and then apply a mild limiter over the master. compression is really a tricky thing; its not as obvious as other effects but its definitely the "secret sauce" and youll know if its not there

eq'ing naman: ideally you would like to carve out a sonic space for each of the instruments so that they dont step on/cancel each other out. say you have a deep boomy kik drum, it would help to eq out the kik's dominant frequency out of the bass guitar track, so they coexist together peacefully. that also goes for other instruments that share similar frequency ranges: guitars and keys and voice for example. the idea is hindi sila magtapakan, frequency-wise

reverb can give the illusion of depth but too much can make the instrument blend into the background. i like to eq out the low frequencies from the reverb also to avoid it muddying up the mix.
In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their address they eventually live in the metropolis

Offline abyssinianson

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2006, 12:23:34 PM »
Quote from: chuck sabbath
dudes maybe were getting a little ahead of ourselves here; i mean you have the guy spending all that money already when a little judicious tweaking of his current plugins will probably help make his mix "bigger"

im not a working engineer/producer so take this advise with "however many a grains of salt" as you wish :wink: also i dont know your (original poster) level of experience so, sorry if you know all this already

doubling the guitar parts can make it seem bigger nga but if its the exact same track it can actually make it seem smaller cause of phase cancellation; you can get around this by re-recording the track using slightly different eq settings, mic placement, gain settings. also the impossibility of getting the 2nd take exactly identical to the first will introduce slight variations in pitch/tone/etc which will help the illusion of width

compression can either make or break your track also. too much can squash the dynamics out of your mixes; too little and it could lack in punch. i tend to compress each instruments seperately and then apply a mild limiter over the master. compression is really a tricky thing; its not as obvious as other effects but its definitely the "secret sauce" and youll know if its not there

eq'ing naman: ideally you would like to carve out a sonic space for each of the instruments so that they dont step on/cancel each other out. say you have a deep boomy kik drum, it would help to eq out the kik's dominant frequency out of the bass guitar track, so they coexist together peacefully. that also goes for other instruments that share similar frequency ranges: guitars and keys and voice for example. the idea is hindi sila magtapakan, frequency-wise

reverb can give the illusion of depth but too much can make the instrument blend into the background. i like to eq out the low frequencies from the reverb also to avoid it muddying up the mix.


hope you weren't talking to me because I didn't say the guy should get a distressor, and the suggestions I offered earlier were minimal costing, readily accessible options that do not cost an arm and a leg to invest in. Moreover, as a longtime Audition user (I started back in the day when it was known as Cool Edit), the current lot of Audition plugs as far as compression goes only includes a Multiband compressor which hardly offers any degree of warmth or liveliness even if you use ducking in the mixing of the tracks.

if you double a track, it shouldn't be an identical track as this defeats the purpose of doubling a track which aims to layer sounds in the first place. in a tracking situation, you double a track to give it depth by playing the part the same way through a different amp or guitar to give it a dimensional character, OR you EQ it differently (using a different shelving EQ value) to bring out, say, its attack, relative to the original recorded track. In both cases, you layer both sounds but keep the signal mono in the eventual mixdown by sending the mix to a subgroup on your mixer. Here, you can make a very big difference in the process of layering to make a solid, main, track and you can supplement the "width" of your guitar sound by duplicating the track and panning it to the opposite side of the stereo field BUT backing the volume down on the duplicate to give the illusion of a stereo signal. This is an old Brian Eno trick that is quite rampant on U2 records to give The Edge's guitars that "larger than life" sound.

as far as compression goes, application depends on the genre and goal of the track. by default, I apply slight compression to drums and bass, leaving compression off vocals and guitars until I am convinced that there is absolutely a need for it in the context of the song.

EQ'ing should be done according to the frequency responses appropriate for each instrument. there are specific red book values for all the intruments and you can use something like a spectral analyzer to see if your EQ adjustments are on pat after you mix a song.

experiment and see how compression affects your sound. with the variety of monitoring systems, it is impossible to say what may or may not work for you. however, it is always safe to assume that you should not lay down compression liberally, even if it is soft-knee because it might take away from the liveliness of the recording.
ako si mimordz. 友だちからよろしくです!

Offline starfugger

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #17 on: June 08, 2006, 12:24:44 PM »
point taken chuck.  the stock plugs will do the job ok.  that's how ive always felt about cubase's stock compressor.  if you're just learning the craft, then use the stock plugs judiciously.  if you have to use cubase's stock compression, just maybe a tad will do, then use automation to even out the volume of the vocals a bit.  

and then later i tried the uad-1 LA2A, and lo and behold, my initial feeling was: "oohhh i SEE.  that's what compression means. i get it now."

here's the thing.  start small.  that way you can appreciate the finer tools later and know why and how they do the job better :)
FOR RENT: Canon 550D, Canon 60D, Glidecam (Machinist), Toribio Slider EX with a pair of tripods for mounting, 2 1000W Lights with 9ft stands, Zoom H4, Rode Video Mic, Portable LED Lights 09154574744

Offline KitC

  • Prime Moderator
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #18 on: June 08, 2006, 12:41:24 PM »
Hi chuck! Got your Nuendo prob straightened out? Those are some nice recording tips you put out there. I'm pretty sure folks will get some pretty good mileage out of those.

BAMF's original question is pretty much straightforward and compression is pretty much the key in making mixes louder, but not necessarily better. You definitely don't want to squash dynamics away and most records out now are pretty much doing that.

While I agree that you have to make the most of what you have, sometimes some of the included plugs with the software we have lack some of that oomph. Mind you the Sonitus plugs included in sonar are quite good, but the Lexicon Pantheon lacked 'smoothness' in the high end - it pales to the PCM61 I heard over at Concertech. The reverbs included in Cubase are too metallic for my taste. It's one reason I use the freeware Glaceverb and Ambience plugs, they sound so much better. Pantheon, however, has a secret that I will share... use it in surround mode.

As in any other forum, however, opinions and recommendations should be taken with a grain of salt (and pepper, if desired) and a healthy dose of research afterwards. leech inquired about hardware and we answered with what we think covered the bases adequately.
Sonar 4.04PE/5.2PE/7.02PE/8.31 PE, Project 5 v2.5.1, EmulatorX 1.5, Cubase SL2, Ableton Live 7.14,  Intel Q6600 MSI P43 Neo 4Gb Crucial Ballistix Tracer DDR2-800, Emu 1820m, Yamaha DSP Factory, Terratec DMX 6fire

Offline chuck sabbath

  • Forum Fanatic
  • ****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #19 on: June 08, 2006, 01:43:32 PM »
abyssinianson: yeah i wasnt refering to your post in particular, i just thought (not knowing the experience level of bamf) that if he wasnt familiar yet with the possibilities of his existing plugins, spending on hardware versions wont really help him. i see now also that most of the replies here were in fact to leech, (and they are good suggestions) sorry for the confusion

starfugger: "start small. that way you can appreciate the finer tools later and know why and how they do the job better" yup thats the point i was trying to make

kit: it was cubase sx and like you said you cant assign keyboard keys to nudge frame +/-1, i just moused my way around, thanks for your help

yeah the cubase reverbs have traditionally been ass, youd think theyd have sorted it out by now

btw: ive been lurking here for awhile, its good to see so many local working pros give advice, im happy to learn and share what ive learned also
In an expanding universe, time is on the side of the outcast. Those who once inhabited the suburbs of human contempt find that without changing their address they eventually live in the metropolis

Offline abyssinianson

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2006, 01:50:14 PM »
the Cubase reverbs are ok but they aren't my first choice for reverbs. I rely mainly on Ambience, and the Waves reverb stuff in addition to my UAD reverbs. However, the IK Classik Reverbs have been getting so much buzz as an unbelievable deal that I am very curious about them. Any one have any experience with these? They are quite affordable.

chuck: its all good. i was just trying to make sure everything was straight to make sure the guy got the advice he needed from everyone to be more productive.
ako si mimordz. 友だちからよろしくです!

Offline starfugger

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2006, 05:08:22 PM »
i read somewhere that the cubase stock reverb sound better when layered.  there are two, and a combination of both might sound more usable than just each on its own.

will check the IK stuff.  so far im happy with the free SIR and a lot of EMT IR's from noisevault and SIR's stock theater IR.  should post that one in the free plugs section.
FOR RENT: Canon 550D, Canon 60D, Glidecam (Machinist), Toribio Slider EX with a pair of tripods for mounting, 2 1000W Lights with 9ft stands, Zoom H4, Rode Video Mic, Portable LED Lights 09154574744

Offline abyssinianson

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
How do you make the sound "bigger" ?
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2006, 05:55:07 PM »
the cubase 'verbs are not bad but compared to the specialized reverb proggies, there is definitely room for improvement. the best way to use them would be to get a good recording in the first place and accentuate it with a touch of reverb rather than use effects to compensate for a lacking element in the sound.
ako si mimordz. 友だちからよろしくです!