hulika

Author Topic: getting a good tone...  (Read 15294 times)

Offline BAMF

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« Reply #50 on: March 20, 2006, 03:04:53 PM »
Aight ! mas boto ako though for the tube screamer. DS-1's as they come out sound (to me) as 2-dimensional and flat. Tube screamers have dynamics and the sound becomes richer when you pick harder.  More so when you put it in an  asym clip mod. Malabnaw nga lang ang tunog...not anywhere as harsh as a DS-1, but it's still far sweeter.
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Offline oasgomez-is-banned

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« Reply #51 on: March 20, 2006, 03:27:06 PM »
Deltaslim,

Like I said, the litmus test is to send the pedal to Boss and lets see if they honor the warranty.

Have you seen in the innards of boutique pedals?  These do not look like anything that come out from Boss, Ibanez, DOD, etc.  For the plain reason, they were made by hand soldering.  Now, do you see Boss, Ibanez and the like say that their PCBs are designed for modification and hand soldering?  Kami ni Lito pagnagsosolder ng mga Boss -- dalawahan nga kami. Tinutulungan ko siya ihila ang component to minimize staining the board with the soldering iron.  Plus, ang lalapit ng mga terminals.

Offline BAMF

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« Reply #52 on: March 20, 2006, 04:20:20 PM »
Hayyy Alex. You keep on hammering on the nailhead of irrelevance. So what was the point again of that one ? How did that address the issue ? That we haven't seen the innards of boutique pedals ? Nyahahahehehe. Parang kailan lang you were harping that a soldering iron will damage a pedal's marketability. Now you sing a different tune. You are seriously amusing me now.

How much is a DS-1 ? How much does it take to ship it to Japan and back ? You'll end up spending and waiting more, even if the warranty gave you free parts and labor. If you have any inkling about mass production business, you'll know that every customization is a pain in the neck as it departs from standard procedure. And that's why Boss will not support ANY modded pedal, even if it were from Keeley as they would have to retrain their techies just to deal with those mods. So paano naging practical and relevant yung pinagsasasabi mo ?  If you don't want to risk voiding your warranty DON'T GET YOUR PEDAL MODDED BY ANYONE AND JUST SUFFER THE STOCK TONE! O ayan, I spelled it out na for you. Happy ?

Have you seen the schematic of a DS-1 ? Can you agree that it's SIMPLE, VERY SIMPLE to anyone who knows his way around it ? Does it take a Keeley or a Boss Tech to understand it and consequentially fix it? Your answer will reveal your level of understanding and general techie paradigm.

Boutique pedals na namannn. I've seen the innards of boutique pedals. Mine. And if I wanted to, they CAN look anything like the innards of Boss pedals. Why ? The mass production techniques of Boss and Fender are easily available from subcontractors like T.E.L. and EISA (cheaper per board too when you factor in labor costs). We're talking 70's production technology here. Too old for any vendor to have any distinct manufacturing advantage. Different syempre pag Zoom, they would have had their boards assembled by production line robots as those have surface-mounted components.

Yung sa panghinang uli, you will not strain the board if you know how. I'm sure Lito Bote can do things on his own and doesnt need your help if you're not around so wag ka na pa-importante kunwari. Nagpagawa ka na ba ng amp sa kanya ? E di wala na ding market value yun, nagalaw na ng panghinang e. Authorized service center ba sya ng Peavey, Marshall at Fender ?

By the way, let it be known na din na wala nang market value ang Tube Screamer mo dahil ginalaw mo na nga pala din yan nang hindi authorized ng Ibanez.

Teka, masyado ko na ata pinapatulan ang irrelevance mo.
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Offline deltaslim

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« Reply #53 on: March 20, 2006, 05:29:42 PM »
Quote from: oasgomez
Deltaslim,

Like I said, the litmus test is to send the pedal to Boss and lets see if they honor the warranty.

Have you seen in the innards of boutique pedals?  These do not look like anything that come out from Boss, Ibanez, DOD, etc.  For the plain reason, they were made by hand soldering.  Now, do you see Boss, Ibanez and the like say that their PCBs are designed for modification and hand soldering?  Kami ni Lito pagnagsosolder ng mga Boss -- dalawahan nga kami. Tinutulungan ko siya ihila ang component to minimize staining the board with the soldering iron.  Plus, ang lalapit ng mga terminals.


Yes, I've seen the innards of boutique pedals... Klon Centaur, FD2, Dual Tone, Jeckyll & Hyde, Mosfet FD2, Tim. I've seen the innards of mass-produced pedals too. And that's why I added my 2 cents.  

If you read carefully, your post just proves my point.

Uhmm... I still don't see the point about warranty?  Who cares about warranty when a local technician can do a better job soldering those mass-produced pedals?

Offline sonnyrayvaughn

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« Reply #54 on: March 20, 2006, 05:35:29 PM »
yaiks... akala ko pa naman tapos na to!


Offline BAMF

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« Reply #55 on: March 20, 2006, 05:41:43 PM »
Teka, nag-eenjoy pa ko.

Come over to my shop and I'll show you the boards of my version of the Ratt , TS and Distortion plus. Mas compressed, maliit at malalapit ang pads neto boy ! Wave soldering is better suited to pads that are farther from each other because it doesnt have the precision of hand soldering !

Sige I'll be a condescending bastard for now at tuturuan kita ha. Wave soldering goes like this. First you print the design for the conductive paths of a board on a blank PCB. Maraming methods but the cheapest and easiest way to do it is by silkscreen. Then you dip the board in etching solution to remove the excess unwanted copper. After that's done, you bring the boards back to the printing station, to be printed with what's known as a solder mask. Yes, it's the green thing on the board, and it covers the copper foil that shouldn't be soldered (e.g. the copper runs and not the pads). In fact, it is unnecessary if your board is meant for "hand soldering".  When that's done, the boards are drilled up and components are inserted, leads are cut and folded close to the board. Folding close is again unnecessary for hand-soldered boards and in fact introduces servicing problems (components are harder to extract for servicing).  

Now comes the nice part. The boards are first brushed with solder flux to facilitate a better bond between the lead and copper. The boards are held close to the surface of liquid soldering lead in a hot vat. An agitator (either machine or person based) agitates the liquid solder to create "waves" which kiss the underside of the board, and will leave a deposit of hot lead on pads that are not protected by the solder mask, thus soldering the leads of components to the board. By necessity, this is a very fast operation because if you observe the real "cook time" required for a solder using this process, you will burn the board all over. Literally. So by nature, solders produced by wave solder method are COLD and have high resistance. You can see this by the gray, grainy texture of wave-soldered joints.

As the boards come out of that process, it is necessary to pass them through initial QC because the process leaves unwanted solder bridges and missed joints . And guess who or what removes those bridges and corrects faulty solder joints ? WORKERS WIELDING  SOLDERING IRONS !

So ano na naman tong pinagsasasabi mo na Boss boards were not meant for hand soldering ? As in hindi pwede o hindi advisable ?  Wave soldering is just a quick and cheap mass production replacement for hand soldering and they would do well to design their boards with components far apart so the boards will not spend too much time in initial QC. Im sure if good hand soldering were just as quick and cheap as wave soldering, any manufacturer in his right mind would opt for the former. Baligtad boy. Boards meant for hand soldering are less advisable for wave soldering and not the other way around.

O hindi ko po ginoogle yan. I worked OJT in an electronics manufacturing firm while in college.
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Offline oasgomez-is-banned

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« Reply #56 on: March 20, 2006, 09:32:20 PM »
BAMF,

These are my rants against you and I have decided to really go for your style of explanation.

The issue has always been that the pedals you mod – the mass manufactured ones were not designed to be modified and soldered and de-soldered.  You claimed reversible so before you claim reversible lets see if your work will stand the test of a warranty.  Ikaw ang nagCLAIM at ikaw ang magpatunay. Ikaw magbayad at magpaship ng modded MT2 na ginamit mo for a week to Boss Japan.  Prove your claim. Wala akong problema sa warranty, ginagamit ko lang ang warranty para mapatunayan mo ang claim mo na hindi mapapansin ang reverse work mo.  Since claim mo na overspecified pa ang Boss PCBs and they can take your hand soldering and which you claim to be the best process to solder, ipadala mo na nga sa Boss Japan for warranty assessment.

Your soldering iron can and may damage marketability at a minimum, the person selling it will have to lie and say walang ginalaw diyan because if he says that this pedal has been reverse modified by BAMF the pedal will lose value.  Kasi hindi ka kilala.  Kung wala kang takot why don’t  you encourage people to tell the truth that it was reverse modified by you.  Don’t believe me? All you guys out there try it out and post in Buy and Sell.

Now since you are an expert in modification, tell me, what process you went through to say your modifications are toneful?  Keeley on his part, tests and tests thru single coil guitars and humbucker equipped guitars of Musicians on both tube and solid state equipment. Ngayon paano ko iyan nalaman?  Nagbabasa ako ng Tonequest Report na by subscription na pusta ko wala ka.   Ikaw? Ilan na bang tao ang pinatest mo ng mga mod mo?  Demo unit lang wala ka pa nga eh.  You give the reason too many modifications variations but that’s a sorry excuse for you not to have enough stock of modified pedals if you really either truly believe in your work or have undergone extensive testing with musicians.  Ang lakas pa ng loob mo sabihin na “Vai notwithstanding, I don't even like the Keeley seeing eye and ultra mod pedals.”  So, sinong tenga pala ang hiningan mo ng opinion para sa mga mod mo?  Kung sampo lang kayo, kumuha ka ng statistical random sample of an additional 20.  

Claim mo and Post mo ito: “If for some reason although how far remote that is that I cannot satisfy my customer, I WILL BUY HIS PEDAL AT A FAIR PRICE AND KEEP IT FOR MYSELF. That is my risk, protection and enjoyment that I can buy for myself.”  So now you qualify… with “I will buy the pedal if I irreversibly damage it, irreparably damage its resale value or if I cannot bring it back to stock. Now that's really going to be a real unsatisfactory condition.”  So go backtrack and I thought you were confident.

Analog Ampsims:” That way, ordinary mortals like us can be in the ballpark of these expensive electronics without shelling 4,000 dollars”. You don’t even own a single US$4000 amp to benchmark.  You know what? Tumawag ka at mag long distance ka sa Ultrasound at guarantee ko sa iyo pagtatawanan nila Ken and Gene.  Alam mo bakit? Sinusubukan gawin ang tunog na hindi mo pa narinig in person.  Sabihin mo pa naka RJ guitar ka na pang test at mas lalong pahiya ka dahil ihaharap nila sa iyo ay tunay na Gibson 59 at Baker at iba pa.

Ang problema sa iyo, wala kang masyadong credentials and hindi pa proven ang tenga mo tinalo mo na sina Keeley, Soldano, Bogner at Jim Marshall.  Hindi pera ang pinapalabas kong solusyon kaya nga sinabi ko na bilib ako sa iyo for that buy back gurantee and sinabi ko pa na it’s the best deal in the world which I sincerely believe.  

On one hand you say”“If you come to Purple Haze on the 25th, my promo service fee is only P300 per pedal. Distortions lang ha, and only the asymmetric clip mod”.  On the other hand you say” Wala talaga ako sa status ni Robert Keeley, at hindi ko career at ka-careerin ang pagmo-mod. Do you think the measly service fee I charge enriches me ? No. My real reward is to see fellow guitarists go into wide-eyed wonder at the beauty of the tone of the pedals that I touched.”  Assuming your last statement is what you really meant, do not use the word PROMO because that assumes you will be jacking up the price later to get more profit that might a tiny bit less measly.

“I do have the info on Keeley mods and I can execute them, and can bring them back to stock. So you're saying only Robert Keeley has the right to open and mod pedals, is that it?” My answer is NO.  This was not what I meant.

“I mod the pedal and I let the customer listen. If he doesnt like it, I'll return it to it's original state and they don't have to pay, except for the time wasted which cannot be refunded. Now if you mod your pedal, by nature, you are taking a risk of wasting my time and yours. That is the price you pay for paying only PPP instead of the $$$$ that Keeley charges. At eto pa.” If you want to stop wasting your time and your CUSTOMER’s time – have the modded pedals ready for plug and play.

“Do yourself a favor and stop embarrasing yourself by attempting to project yourself as the authority in things that you hardly know about.”  Stop trying to be an electronic tone guru when you have not yet proven yourself.  My problem with you is kaunti pa ang exposure mo to be able to talk they way you do.  You wanna know why? and I hate to brag this but my arsenal of amps will smoke all your pedals and your mods and your amp. So will my 4 guitars that will choke your guitars.  Now, I hate to put you in place pero marami ka ng sinabi and I have tried to be friendly but obviously it does not work.  From the time linait mo ang paper in oil capacitors na wala ka pang nabili na ANGELA hangang ngayon na mayroon na ako na anim na piraso sa mga gitara ko hangang sa sinabi mo na hindi factor ang type ng component sa mga pedal mods that I feel is plainly not true because there is a difference and I can prove it, you are more theory than sound.  

By the way, not all your mods can beat my stock Jap OD1.  So huwag mo maliitin ang mga stock dahil depende nga sa gear mo.  Kung sobra kang dependent sa pedals mo na modded, talagang may problema ang tunog ng gitara at amp mo.

I am not interested in the resale value of my amps and I mod my pedals as I wish without need to worry about resale value because tone habol ko.   I could not care less; but a large portion of your customers may be interested in resale value.  So, I have my amps serviced by Lito because he is a good friend and magaling siya magayos ng tube amp.  Pero ikaw?  Hindi ko pa alam kung magaling gumawa ng magandang tunog na pedal.  Sana nga para hindi na rin ako kailangan gumastos.

Offline CARABAO

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« Reply #57 on: March 20, 2006, 09:47:12 PM »
hmmmm..   :?

Offline Kulas

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« Reply #58 on: March 20, 2006, 09:51:40 PM »
if you smell... what the rock is cookin'  [-X

Offline BAMF

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« Reply #59 on: March 21, 2006, 12:29:16 AM »
Oas, I'm done with the techie talk, so yung rants mo na lang sagutin ko.

Ito ang problema mo kung hindi mo pa alam. Just because you've got the dough to collect boutique gears you think you can dictate what other people can and cannot do. I dared to build a tube amp, sabi mo wala akong alam sa tone dahil hindi ako exposed sa boutique amps like you even if I already said I know the tone I want. That was the first time I told you not to impose your own limitation on others. I dared to mod pedals, sasabihin mong I cannot do that because I am not an expert like Keeley. Well, duh! Unang-una, you were the one who placed me in league with Keeley by comparing me to him. Funny really coz I never thought of myself that way. You may not realize it but It's flattering in a way. I may be executing Keeley mods, pero I never thought of myself as someone who is already in league with him, kaya thanks talaga dude! See my delight in lecturing you about wave soldering.

Now, you claim you read Tonequest so you have info on Keeley's mod process. That's good. So how come you already criticized my modding skills when you do not have any info yet on how I do it? E ngayon mo pa nga lang ako tinatanong about my modding process. So nauna na yung angas mo, na wag ako mag-mod dahil wala ako sa status ni Keeley (yet :lol:)?

Oas, I think you get some sort of a high from dwelling on the fact that you have the money while others don't. Personally I have nothing against that, pero I hope your money can buy you comprehension. Para maintindihan mo rin lang ang whole picture, yung mga taong nagpapa-mod sa akin cannot spare $10000000 million thousand that you have to pay for Keeley mods.  In other words, hindi ikaw at mga tulad mo ang target market ng tulad ko. Copish?

Now do not take it against me if I go on my personal quest to de-mystify things that used to be the toys only of the ultrarich . That's what engineers do and I know that in business, actual cost per unit is but a minute part of the price. So I made use of available resources to get as close as possible in executing my Keeleys, Marshalls, Rats, etc., commoditizing these and hopefully bringing them into the hands of more and more musicians who normally cannot afford to spend $10000000. That's a personal conviction, my calling, at wala ka ng pakialam pa diyan.

You putting me in my place by your arsenal of gears? Tsk...babaw, this can only be insulting and at the same time gratifying to people who can only get validation in the amount of disposable cash they have. Fine, I'll give you that. No doubt about it, I have always thought you have great gears since you have the taste and obviously, the money to spend for these things. But, I have what you do not have, and that enables me to put you in your place whenever you spew out BS on things that you don't know about. (Like your take on PROMO, which showed you obviously know nothing about marketing.)

If you really want to put me in my place, sabi ko nga sa iyo, you only need to tell me na ikaw pala si Robert Keeley o si Seymour Duncan or Paul Gilbert, and I will revere you. That's the only type of currency I recognize. Pero kung isa ka lang palang wannabe who happens to have loads of money who likes to namedrop, pwede akong maiinggit pero it will be an abuse of my good nature to tolerate your sanctimonious preaching on things that I can and cannot do.

Finally I'm not even remotely mad sa panlalait mo ng gears ko. Mainly because your gears are now my benchmarks and targets for cloning. :lol: Na-download ko na nga ang schematics ng Soldano mo. :lol:  Soon, more and more people will have your boutique tone. Magiging ordinaryo ka na lang tulad namin. Di bale, pag sumikat ako kahit dito sa Pinas or sa buong mundo, I will not forget to thank you. :lol:
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Offline lykenhowl

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« Reply #60 on: March 21, 2006, 01:22:06 AM »
Quote from: BAMF

Finally I'm not even remotely mad sa panlalait mo ng gears ko. Mainly because your gears are now my benchmarks and targets for cloning. :lol: Na-download ko na nga ang schematics ng Soldano mo. :lol:  Soon, more and more people will have your boutique tone. Magiging ordinaryo ka na lang tulad namin. Di bale, pag sumikat ako kahit dito sa Pinas or sa buong mundo, I will not forget to thank you. :lol:


GO BAMF GO!

Offline namida

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« Reply #61 on: March 21, 2006, 10:53:24 AM »
The quest for your tone, I hope you make it in time :). Hmmm, its amazing how this thread has developed. It doesn't matter how you achieve your tone as long as you do get to that point. We can always be filled with ideas which for our part are just theories, there is only one way to find out, go out and do it. Kudos to those who try and level out the playing field, which again proves that there is no single correct way of doing things.
"Ano man ang iyong ginagawa sa iyong kapatid, ay siya ring ginagawa mo sa akin" --Yano

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Offline Al_Librero

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« Reply #62 on: March 21, 2006, 10:56:42 AM »
well, i got to hand it to the guy... he thinks big.  :lol:
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Offline Godin

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« Reply #63 on: March 21, 2006, 01:02:30 PM »
mukhang mahaba-habang usapan nanaman ito...hehehe.. lets get it on!!!!
Respect mga bros! hehe Peace lang... wag na init  ulo....

Offline fingertapper1

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« Reply #64 on: March 21, 2006, 04:15:39 PM »
medyo nag iiba na nga takbo nitong thread hehe. yung sasampalin sa video pwede i post sa you tube? hehe jk.

easy lang guys... peace