Question about local pop artists and cover songs...

[marvinq]

i also have to agree with most of your points. i think we're saying the same thing in different ways.

The question is if you justified the song by either 'freaking' it or adding your own identity into it, a sure test of creativity.

yes. a test of creativity, or in most cases nowadays, plain disrespect to the material in question...

i don't know if they're adding their identity, or they just find it cool (also an abused word) to just play the song in a rather unintelligent way. that's just my personal opinion.

it's been quite a while since the last time i've seen genuine artists striving for excellence on the mainstream. you're right about the lyrics in majority of today's songs.

i guess it's also a function of economics, but from a different standpoint. more people could afford legal copies of albums, and singles (45rpm? uy, naabutan ko yun... hehe). probably because they was a noticeable difference in quality with pirated casette tapes and legit ones. also, the superior medium that time was the vinyl record (and a lot would argue that it still is). today, with piracy seemingly winning the race, record companies would rather gamble on cheap but mediocre artistry. they too need to survive, my friend.

thank you for those flattering words about second wind. well, two of the bands you mentioned (second wind and hayp) had a common genius -- the great noel mendez.

G-Em7-C-D? haha. that's almost a sure sign that the chords came before the melody, when harmony should've been the consequence of melody. that's why you could copyright melodies, and not chord progressions.

actually, somebody's rights to copyrighted work will not expire for as long as there's somebody claiming for it, even way beyond 25 years. that's what it know.

[nancy brew]

yes. a test of creativity, or in most cases nowadays, plain disrespect to the material in question...

i don't know if they're adding their identity, or they just find it cool (also an abused word) to just play the song in a rather unintelligent way. that's just my personal opinion...

thank you for those flattering words about second wind. well, two of the bands you mentioned (second wind and hayp) had a common genius -- the great noel mendez.

G-Em7-C-D? haha. that's almost a sure sign that the chords came before the melody, when harmony should've been the consequence of melody. that's why you could copyright melodies, and not chord progressions.

actually, somebody's rights to copyrighted work will not expire for as long as there's somebody claiming for it, even way beyond 25 years. that's what it know.

Nga naman.

Nailed it bro. I guess wala nang mas apt na word: DISRESPECT - man, to the point na binababoy na ang kanta. I may offend some with this statement but I just have to say it: Hindi dahil kesyo distorted na ang trabaho ng gitara sa kanta eh creative na yun. Sorry, but creative reading of a song is different from just putting additional icing.

These people should hear brad mehldau doing radiohead, alex skolnick doing sabbath and bill frissel do madonna (madonna's song, that is hehehee  ). These are not attempts to sell, it's using pop material to create something different.

Before the genre police come busting in and say: ano ba gusto mo mag-jazz na tayong lahat? nope, alisson krauss and Norah Jones also creatively stamped their imprints sa covers. The list goes on: Miles, Blood, Sweat and Tears, Dream Theater, ..

I don't know kung valid itong observation ko, but with piracy, for better or for worse, sooner the stage would be the ultimate testing venue for artistry. we'll have to go out and play more to 1. earn and 2., get back to the true standard of artistry: playing live. What do you guys think?

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mapa OT: Bro. baka  me CD ka pa ng Second Wind i'd buy one kahit magkano hehehehe (wag lng 1million P), hiram-wala yung nangyari sa casette ko eh. hehehehe PM lng..

[marvinq]

yes, i do. and it's with my son. i'll see what i can do...

studio playing is a discipline that's different from stage or live playing, and one isn't superior to the other. both are exercises on artistry and creativity. some of us perform, some of us write, some of us conceptualize concerts and/or albums, etc.. ultimately, it's not right that other people STEAL money that rightfully belongs to the authors of copyrighted work.

regarding the topic of having bands render songs of the past, well, i can't decide whether those bands are disrespecting the material, or insulting the intelligence of the listening public. i'd like to name names, but in the interest of harmony (which is most of the time a great thing, whether in music or otherwise), i'd better not.

sometimes the best tribute you can give to a deserving piece of work is to be as faithful to the material as possible. sometimes, when i'm asked to re-arrange or produce a version of a song, and i already think the original material is already perfect, or if i honestly believe i won't be able to come up with a fitting tribute by changing, i stay as faithful as i can to the original material, and i don't see it as a waste of creativity.

huwag naman yung banat ka lang ng banat, basta-basta lang iniiwan mo yung marka mo. eh kung ganon, eh ano ang pagkakaiba nun sa aso na iniihian yung isang bagay para markahan lang yung teritoryo niya?

sana naman, pag iniiwan nila yung marka nila, sinusubukan man lang nilang pagandahin. i'm willing to agree that 'creative ugliness' is still superior to mediocrity, but 'ugly mediocrity' is the worst, yun bang ginagawa nang [chewbacca] yung mga nakikinig sa kanila.

i call those people traitors. traitors to the artists' quest for beauty. a lot of today's 'artists' have become so self-centered that their only real agenda is self-expression. they have no respect for tradition, or those who came before them, and have excelled in that very same endeavor they chose to pursue.

coolness is overrated. 'cool' is so temporary a term. 'respect' will endure far longer.

[magz]

here's the thing. money is not the root of evil. the love of money is. so, let's stop looking at money as though it's a bad thing.

you're right ... but i didn't say money is the devil.... i said its all about money... it complicates things... for the artists trying to make a living out of music, for the producers trying to stay afloat in the industry filled with pirated cd's... so yeah money is a big factor...

-does one sacrifice integrity, creativity and artistry so one can have a roof under his head???
- would you produce 10 eraserheads, 10 APO, 10 hotdog revival cover albums just so your company stays in the industry???

and yes, of course "quality" of the music plays a major factor too, (but evidently and sadly only second to money of course....)  then there's the technology like you mentioned.... creativity vs. mimicry vs laziness...

overall, people who loves music and wants to make a "living" thru their music are faced with these realities and then some etc etc... record contracts, obligatory appearance in A.S.A.P. or S.O.P. etc etc... toothpaste commercial... etc etc...

its just sad like everyone else is saying here that we are in a "phase" in phil. music history that (along with the piracy) people tend to subscribe and buy mediocre music (((whether it be because of the economic situation or because of the mainstream media choke feeding wasted mentality)))...  i hope its just a phase....


somebody,  someone, anyone ...make something happen.... hopefully....soon

[marvinq]

at this point in time, anything helps. every bit. even just one person refusing to patronize pirated stuff.

anyway, the company i work for just released very recently two albums that pays tribute to two filipino music geniuses -- the great lucio san pedro and angel pena. is this a case of trying to make money by releasing past works? clearly not. the point being -- sometimes it's not really ENTIRELY a money-making scheme. in my opinion, the hotdogs, the APO, and the eraserheads are groups worthy of being paid-tribute to. if i had the resources, i'd pay tribute to several more composers and artists of the past.

do you think the recording companies instructed those bands to play the songs terribly, in the name of commercialism? those bands got paid good money, but a lot of them had very little regard for the material they were made to perform, so they did those songs distastefully, in the name of putting whatever 'signature sound' to satisfy their swollen egos.

ang punto dito, hindi lang yung record companies ang dapat sisihin dito.

classical artists have recorded performances of great works by the masters of the past. would you consider those classical artists inferior musicians, just because they don't perform original material? i wouldn't even dare think of them as inferior artists, as most mediocre classical pianist have way faster fingers than i do.

if you have an idea exactly on how to "make things happen", well, it's not like anybody's stopping you. this industry could benefit a lot from young blood, and i'd like to think i've done my part (and i'm not really that young), and still am. i wouldn't want to think that i've made myself an inferior musician but making money out of it.

my friend, it's actually the money i've earned from my music that has enabled me to help out a few people with their music. it's what enables me to render free service to endeavors that deserve my service.

how do you propose to improve the situation without money being part of the equation?

[magz]

how do you propose to improve the situation without money being part of the equation?

once again, i didnt say money was the problem nor did i say take money out of the equation.. but now that you mentioned it... maybe if money wasn't the bottom line then maybe just maybe things would turn out for the better... 

 great artist of the past were  simply great because they created and composed songs because they want to "say something".. "prove something and hopefully make a difference"... (i.e asin with masdan mo ang kapaligiran... cotobato etc.. this is just an example... there are other great bands and artist that are activist as well...)  .. and some are just plain great without being a conformist/nonconformist..... juan delacruz... mike hanopol... hotdogs.. APO...

and also, i am not againts artists (both deserving and non-deserving) making money out of their music.... every artist i know wants to make a living out of their music...
 I am simply stating like you mentioned yourself that ....those bands got paid good money, but a lot of them had very little regard for the material they were made to perform, so they did those songs distastefully, in the name of putting whatever 'signature sound' to satisfy their swollen egos.....

also, i didn't say APO , Hotdogs etc etc.. were not worthy of a tribute album...  i am stating the "trend" of the moment.... and did i mention classical artist are inferior??? where did this come from...??  you are way "reading too much into what i'm saying.... or not saying...

and about having an idea on how to change things...
i think this is the point of this whole thread and discussion... just maybe .. someone here has an idea..... or maybe thru this discussion, sparks will fly on someone that will have an idea on a revolution of some sort to bring back OPM.. original pilipino music...
like tupac said... he is not here to make the change... hopefully somebody watching him will be inspired .. he is doing what he was doing to spark the mind of the person who will change things... hopefully somebody was watching ..
and hopefully here somebody is reading this...

[marvinq]

so, how do tell which is which? who is the one paying tribute and who is in it for the money? who is to tell whether doing a past piece of music is valid or not? you?

one thing in common those bands that i've mentioned who seemed to have created trash out of music of the past, and classical artists, is this -- they both make recording out of music that is not of their making. in other words, ibang tao ang may gawa.

that statement about classical artists was meant for everybody viewing the thread, and it was never my style to read beyond your words. during times like these, in this music industry of ours, it's easier to be an outsider looking in, it's easier to criticize whatever's going on, but the real challenge is, to actually do something to effect some significant change. as i've already said, i am proud of having been part of 20 years of this industry, and all the successes and failures that go with it.

so how do objectively tell when a person is just doing these remakes for the money or not? i was paid good money to do several remakes, and i do believe i had come up with something that was worth what i was paid, or have exceeded the value of the money i was paid, and at the same time paid proper tribute to the artists who have done those songs before i did -- songs such as gary v.'s "i will be here", janno and jaya's "ikaw lamang", regine and jaya's "habang may buhay", regine's "fallin'", several songs for martin, sharon, etc.

without the money i earned from making my music, continuing to do it would have been extremely difficult if not impossible. making money is not a bad thing.

here's the point i'm driving at -- we all can take part in making whatever changes that need to be done. most people have lot of opinions on how to go about that change, but very few actually do something about it.  maybe that's the reason why so little change is happening.

[magz]

so, how do you tell which is which? who is the one paying tribute and who is in it for the money? who is to tell whether doing a past piece of music is valid or not? you?

here you are , "reading into" what i'm saying again...  I never mentioned anyone or any artists in particular who is "in it" for the money..... i even said that every artists dream is to make money out of their music whether it be original or not, whether its worthy or crap...  ultimately its the "fans and consumers" who decides what's worthy and what's crap... ... and i'm part of that fan/consumer community.... i do have a say... in my own way and i am saying it now... and whether i can say it or not is not for anyone else to decide but me... its my opinion after all... everyone has their own take on things ...  (and for the record, i voice my opinion by not buying the crap and buying what i think are great original cd/music)...

-all the opinions and statements i am voicing out, whether it be from an outsiders or insiders view (which again is really irrelevant because this is a "public" forum for discussion), are meant to inquire, discuss, dissect and yes criticize whats going on....

and yes, if i can do something about it i will.... but i know mere words wont do.... but again its not up to me to decide, afterall i am only an outsider looking in....

[marvinq]

you said it yourself. it's the public who decides. if the record companies keep on making those kinds of albums, that's because the public keeps buying them. as i've said many times -- it's merely a function of economics -- demand and supply. if record companies are making money despite the fact that there is a large supply, then there really must be a huge demand for it.

this industry is full of people who think they have a better idea, and yet stay in the safety of their freedom of expression or whatever right they have to voice their opinions, without really taking any step, whether little or significant, to effect change, whether little or significant.

yes, you're right, you have the right to voice out your opinions, which i'd rather not do because that would be risking insulting the legitimate efforts made by artists who came before i did. this industry has survived no thanks to people who really have nothing else to do but voice out an opinion, and merely observe afterwards. yet there are still artists who believe in what we can do as a race, as a nation, despite the seeming victory of piracy which is crippling this industry, and robbing our artists of money they so deserve.

so, how do you tell which is which? who is the one paying tribute and who is in it for the money? who is to tell whether doing a past piece of music is valid or not? you?

..... i even said that every artists dream is to make money out of their music whether it be original or not, whether its worthy or crap... 

it was NOT my dream to make money out of my music. the fact that i'm making money is entirely by accident. and i know of a lot of my fellow musicians who share the same sentiments with me.

[magz]

this industry is full of people who think they have a better idea, and yet stay in the safety of their freedom of expression or whatever right they have to voice their opinions, without really taking any step, whether little or significant, to effect change, whether little or significant.

ok, I see whats going on now...
I tried my best to be very open minded in this "discussion" in a "public" forum about music  but I know better now...

- as long as I'm an outsider/newbie/not a professional musician/amateur/nobody  looking from the outside in, i am deemed not worthy of saying any opinion/suggestion nor am i worthy of criticizing and voicing any kind of opinion whether it be good or bad... helpful or not....

- also it seems the only one who has the "right to voice their opinions" around here are supposedly the ones who can "change" things ...  i guess the motto around here is if you cant change or shake things up... then stay in the corner and dont say a word..

(last time I checked this is a public forum right?... not some elitist know it all professional musicians only message board who eats their young )
   

yes, you're right, you have the right to voice out your opinions, which i'd rather not do because that would be risking insulting the legitimate efforts made by artists who came before i did. this industry has survived no thanks to people who really have nothing else to do but voice out an opinion, and merely observe afterwards. yet there are still artists who believe in what we can do as a race, as a nation, despite the seeming victory of piracy which is crippling this industry, and robbing our artists of money they so deserve.

- who said you haven't "voiced out"  your opinions here.. you already "voiced out plenty"...
-and again, you say its not about money, then stop talking  about money  ...

- i know, i know i'm a budding musician wet behind the ears and i dont know anything....
but this I know....throuhgout this whole thread, never did i point fingers, name names, insult anybody, blame anyone, nor have i instigated anything that will make anyone else feel "personally attacked".... I was merely "discussing"... if thats a crime then somebody "ban" me now...


and last but not least of the last words i'm gonna say in this thread then I'm done "discussing"...
- certain people here feel so "attacked" that they have to resort to "reading" into what others people are saying, nitpicking and taking everything "personal as oppose to professional"... i dont know why... i guess its really personal.... but dont take it out on the amateur...


peace out...

[jinno]

mukang mainit ang usapan dito ah...

[nancy brew]

hehehe dala ng summer brow.

punta kayo rito. maraming matutunan dito 

[soundslikebryan]

bottomline, its all about money. kahit pa sabihin nyong hindi, its still about money.

lets see you make music for free.

they are all sellouts.

yang mga tribute tribute na yan eh taktika lang din ng production companies at ng label.

its not bad to do cover songs, but make a living out of a cd that's all cover songs? o kaya ang carrier single ng album is a cover song, for crying out loud.

[marvinq]

I tried my best to be very open minded in this "discussion" in a "public" forum about music  but I know better now...

- as long as I'm an outsider/newbie/not a professional musician/amateur/nobody  looking from the outside in, i am deemed not worthy of saying any opinion/suggestion nor am i worthy of criticizing and voicing any kind of opinion whether it be good or bad... helpful or not....

- also it seems the only one who has the "right to voice their opinions" around here are supposedly the ones who can "change" things ...  i guess the motto around here is if you cant change or shake things up... then stay in the corner and dont say a word..

(last time I checked this is a public forum right?... not some elitist know it all professional musicians only message board who eats their young )


- who said you haven't "voiced out"  your opinions here.. you already "voiced out plenty"...
-and again, you say its not about money, then stop talking  about money  ...

- i know, i know i'm a budding musician wet behind the ears and i dont know anything....
but this I know....throuhgout this whole thread, never did i point fingers, name names, insult anybody, blame anyone, nor have i instigated anything that will make anyone else feel "personally attacked".... I was merely "discussing"... if thats a crime then somebody "ban" me now...


and last but not least of the last words i'm gonna say in this thread then I'm done "discussing"...
- certain people here feel so "attacked" that they have to resort to "reading" into what others people are saying, nitpicking and taking everything "personal as oppose to professional"... i dont know why... i guess its really personal.... but dont take it out on the amateur...


peace out...

i have nothing against you or anybody else voicing out your opinions and theirs. my only point is to try taking steps to effect those changes that need to be made, if you truly believe those changes are going to make this industry a better one. "better" is so subjective a term, and we all have varying ideas on how to make this a "better" industry. i never said you're not worthy of voicing out opinions -- on the contrary, you can voice out as many opinions as you deem necessary -- but from one musician to another, i'm also inviting you to take steps in improving this industry's situation -- for instance, if you want better original songs, then make better original songs, and prove the record companies wrong.

i agree with those of you who are tired of the fact that majority of the records being released right now are those from the past. i have nothing against paying tribute to the great artists of yesterday, but it's also my opinion that there's simply too much of it.

a lot of the hope for this industry will have to come from young blood (such as yourself, magz -- i don't know you, but you call yourself a newbie, so i'm assuming you're young). i'm not encouraging you to agree with me, because i know, more significant changes have been made by people who disagree -- after all, there wouldn't be any necessity for significant changes if we all agree with what's going on.

if it hasn't been clear yet -- the point i've been trying to drive at in my previous posts is this -- if you truly believe in your opinions, then let me invite you to make those changes, or be an instrument in effecting that specific change that needs to be done. look around you. listen around you. there are way too many opinions on different things -- on how to run this country, on who should win the elections, etc. -- and the topic being discussed in this thread -- on how to deal with the situation on the seeming lack of original material that are being released by our local record companies. and yet, there are too few of those who actually do something.

if i had offended you, magz, and others, well, i'd like to apologize. i also didn't mean to turn this discussion into a heated argument. nor did i mean to imply that you didn't have the right to voice our your opinions. you have as much right as everybody else in this forum.

bottomline, its all about money. kahit pa sabihin nyong hindi, its still about money.

lets see you make music for free.

they are all sellouts.

yang mga tribute tribute na yan eh taktika lang din ng production companies at ng label.

its not bad to do cover songs, but make a living out of a cd that's all cover songs? o kaya ang carrier single ng album is a cover song, for crying out loud.

make music for free? as a matter of fact, sir, i have made music for free many times. i've also let my friend use my studio free of charge (well, i just charged him for electricity) just so that he could finish his album. oh, by the way, it's an all-original album. no covers. now, my friend, how can that be all about money?

[kedysanchez]

Ang discussion, hindi kailangang maging nakakapikon.  Umiinit yan pero di dapat ikasama ng mga tao kung may kakontrang pananaw ang isa't-isa.

Tama sina magz.  Ito ay place of discussion.  Pero siguro di na kailangang umpisahan ang mga reaction with lines like, "THE BOTTOM LINE KASI IS..." or "IT ALL BOILS DOWN TO..." or "THE MAIN PROBLEM KASI IS".... These phrases kasi imply that the opinion is all-encompassing, infallible, and the Solomonic settlement to any verbal conflict.  Parang di mo na pwedeng bigyan ng contrary opinion.

Magz, please continue airing your views. Sometimes, your points and opinions may be wrong or falls under a wrong premise, but there are also people who may be in a position to clarify, to correct certain misconceptions, or simply prove your argument wrong.  Hindi naman sigurong masamang matuto lao na ang mga baguhan di ba mula sa mga nakakatanda na at nakaranas na ng lahat ng sakit at sama ng loob sa industriya natin. 

With all due respect, now that you have mentioned about your right to show your opinion because this is a public forum - please be civil enough also to accept views contrary to your own.  I have followed this thread and I believe Marvin was just defending his points also.  Di ba ikaw mismo ang nagsabi sa first reply mo that you were going to take the stand of a 'DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"?  Being one means you are taking a completely opposite view of a person's set of opinions and PURPOSELY invites him to defend his stand against yours.  Unfortunately, Marvin has proven to be one of the most articulate artists who continues to bring relevant issues to the ears of the industry.

Discussing an item such is this topic is a difficult task.  The views, the pervasive unjust structures, our culture, the current mitigating circumstances, our third world country situation, the piracy problem, simple business strategies, even current paradigms of economics all have a hand to this and we cannot simply put the blame squarely on say MONEY, or RECORD COMPANIES.  It's a host of market forces virtually tugging to his direction. 

My take on the problem:  Artists doing covers are good.  Sana wag lang nilang babuyin ang mga original versions.  Walang pera ang recording companies.  But still the industry has moved forward at an unbelievable pace compared to the past decades. Mas mahirap kumita sa original material. I shall explain them at another time.

Meanwhile, wag tayong mapikon.  May I invite you, Magz to reply to my message.  Let US exchange views pero wag kang mapikon if I take a contrary view to your opinions.  I may not agree with all of Marvin's opinions but his views are definitely based on fact and on his experiences with the industry.  I completely admire his way of moving everyone's hearts, maybe through his passionate pleas for a certain cause, or his intricate musical arrangements. 

What do you say, Magz?










 

[soundslikebryan]

bottomline, its all about money. kahit pa sabihin nyong hindi, its still about money.

lets see you make music for free.

they are all sellouts.

yang mga tribute tribute na yan eh taktika lang din ng production companies at ng label.

its not bad to do cover songs, but make a living out of a cd that's all cover songs? o kaya ang carrier single ng album is a cover song, for crying out loud.

make music for free? as a matter of fact, sir, i have made music for free many times. i've also let my friend use my studio free of charge (well, i just charged him for electricity) just so that he could finish his album. oh, by the way, it's an all-original album. no covers. now, my friend, how can that be all about money?

[/quote]

is making music your source or living? is music the only thing you do? if not then shut the pie hole

[marvinq]

yes sir. music is my main source of living. whether it's the only thing i do, well, yes and no, i do a lot of stuff, but most of them are related to music -- arranging, composing, record production, etc., heck, i even play session keyboards.

[jinno]

bottomline, its all about money. kahit pa sabihin nyong hindi, its still about money.

lets see you make music for free.

they are all sellouts.

yang mga tribute tribute na yan eh taktika lang din ng production companies at ng label.

its not bad to do cover songs, but make a living out of a cd that's all cover songs? o kaya ang carrier single ng album is a cover song, for crying out loud.

make music for free? as a matter of fact, sir, i have made music for free many times. i've also let my friend use my studio free of charge (well, i just charged him for electricity) just so that he could finish his album. oh, by the way, it's an all-original album. no covers. now, my friend, how can that be all about money?

is making music your source or living? is music the only thing you do? if not then shut the pie hole
[/quote]

as a matter of fact ser, music is marvin's business. he's one of the country's premier arranger/songwriter/jingle composer/musical director

kamusta yung supplier profile natin ser marvin - jinno sonybmg

[marvinq]

sorry guys for the OT.
 
@jinno - sent you PM.

[soundslikebryan]

bottomline, its all about money. kahit pa sabihin nyong hindi, its still about money.

lets see you make music for free.

they are all sellouts.

yang mga tribute tribute na yan eh taktika lang din ng production companies at ng label.

its not bad to do cover songs, but make a living out of a cd that's all cover songs? o kaya ang carrier single ng album is a cover song, for crying out loud.

make music for free? as a matter of fact, sir, i have made music for free many times. i've also let my friend use my studio free of charge (well, i just charged him for electricity) just so that he could finish his album. oh, by the way, it's an all-original album. no covers. now, my friend, how can that be all about money?

is making music your source or living? is music the only thing you do? if not then shut the pie hole

as a matter of fact ser, music is marvin's business. he's one of the country's premier arranger/songwriter/jingle composer/musical director

kamusta yung supplier profile natin ser marvin - jinno sonybmg
[/quote]

does he charge or not in any of those? just out of curiosity

[magz]

ok, here i go again on my own ( to the tune of whitesnake.... sorry bad joke )...

eniway,
if it looked and sounded like "napikon ako", well, quite the contrary.... i just didn't want to go "there anymore "... wherever "there" was suppose to be... ..
bcoz i felt like it wasn't a discussion anymore but "a he said, she said conversation"...

i have nothing against you or anybody else voicing out your opinions and theirs. my only point is to try taking steps to effect those changes that need to be made, if you truly believe those changes are going to make this industry a better one. "better" is so subjective a term, and we all have varying ideas on how to make this a "better" industry. i never said you're not worthy of voicing out opinions -- on the contrary, you can voice out as many opinions as you deem necessary -- but from one musician to another, i'm also inviting you to take steps in improving this industry's situation -- for instance, if you want better original songs, then make better original songs, and prove the record companies wrong.

and Marvin is right, everything is subjective... but the discussion should be objective with a subjective kind of view and not the other way around...
and marvin is right again that we should take steps towards improving the industry and i thought that was the direction the thread was moving towards to....
instead the thread is turning into a "you dont know anything and i know better" spit out... (which for the record, "i never claim i knew any better, i was merely pointing things out, read "devils advocate part below...)

and in all fairness to Marvin, i dont know him (personally or musically for that matter) and he doesn't know me either... Marvin is inside the industry and im not..  his views are totally different than mine, and i understood that from the get go... like marvin said its a subjective thing .... and its cool like that..
i definitely can see where he's coming from but i cant say for sure i will fully understand until i am faced with the same stuff he is talking about... i would be lying if i say, yeah i totally understand what marvin is talking about ....

if it hasn't been clear yet -- the point i've been trying to drive at in my previous posts is this -- if you truly believe in your opinions, then let me invite you to make those changes, or be an instrument in effecting that specific change that needs to be done. look around you. listen around you. there are way too many opinions on different things -- on how to run this country, on who should win the elections, etc. -- and the topic being discussed in this thread -- on how to deal with the situation on the seeming lack of original material that are being released by our local record companies. and yet, there are too few of those who actually do something.

if i had offended you, magz, and others, well, i'd like to apologize. i also didn't mean to turn this discussion into a heated argument. nor did i mean to imply that you didn't have the right to voice our your opinions. you have as much right as everybody else in this forum.

Marvin, i totally agree with you... maybe i was wrong to think that you are implying to people (including me)  to "put out or shut up" while you're sitting on your "high chair" typing these things .... then again it sure sounded that way....

and just to clarify where I'm (the newbie) is coming from...
I am in a band called sodapop suicide... we are an electronic/alternative/poprock band from new jersey u.s.a. writing/composing/recording OPM music... you can check out the link on myspace on my signature...
and yes we only write original songs....
also we are part of a group of youngs bands spearheaded by Ted Reyes www.tedreyes.com, a great producer/composer who penned the hit "Bye Bye" na for Rivermaya (if anyone here doesnt know yet, Rivermaya broke up).....  we are under soulworks records  www.soulworksrecords.com who only produces OPM from fil-am (filipino american bands) ... check out  www.poptimesmagazine.com we are trying to continue the tradition of great OPM... check out the original releases from soulworks records... bands like Bleud, The Kwagos, The happy Analogues have release their own cd of original OPM...
and to clarify more things
- all of the artists i mentioned have day jobs and doesn't rely on their music for money
- all the artist i mentioned funded their own cd (do it yourself guerrilla style)
- we are trying to promote OPM here in the USA and has collaborated with  The Speaks, Glenn Jacinto on shows, Parokya ni Edgar, Bamboo, Rivermaya, Barbie, etc etc...

so I guess what i'm trying to say is, yes, we here in the USA are doing OUR part to revive OPM and support the creativity/originality of OPM...
I didn't really want to do this and it sounds like i'm just promoting myself and my friends...
and I dont want to sound like " i'm typing on my high chair" as well...
so i guess what I'm trying to say is "we are doing our fair share of helping the industry".. and we are not making any money out of this but instead we are using  our own money out of love for OPM....
and it saddens us to see only "unoriginal" music dominating the industry today...
and did I mention we only buy Original OPM CD's... 
but how can you be enticed to buy what is in the industry today... (thank god for my current fave, radioactive sago.... )

- and somebody pls help me with something here... i want to know how much percent of the total cd sales of OPM comes from overseas...??


eniway back to the topic...

With all due respect, now that you have mentioned about your right to show your opinion because this is a public forum - please be civil enough also to accept views contrary to your own.  I have followed this thread and I believe Marvin was just defending his points also.  Di ba ikaw mismo ang nagsabi sa first reply mo that you were going to take the stand of a 'DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"?  Being one means you are taking a completely opposite view of a person's set of opinions and PURPOSELY invites him to defend his stand against yours.  Unfortunately, Marvin has proven to be one of the most articulate artists who continues to bring relevant issues to the ears of the industry.

exactly, i did take the "devils advocate" stand.... i made that very clear from the get go so no one misunderstands where my inquiries are from... I was looking for answers myself and doesnt mind contradictions... but such inquiries are met with seemingly "At that time"  "personal attacks" instead....

 ..

this industry has survived no thanks to people who really have nothing else to do but voice out an opinion, and merely observe afterwards

i know now that they were not "personal attacks" per se but with statements like the one above without ever knowing where the other side is coming from.. it seems all too personal at that time...
but now that everyone here knows where I'm coming from, i have no regrets on whatever i said....
because i know I'm doing "my part", "my steps", to help the industry....

now, I'm really done....

Kudos to Kedysanchez...

[marvinq]

does he charge or not in any of those? just out of curiosity

yes i did charge for that specific project. but what does that prove? it's ALL about the money? i'm willing to admit that for the most part, i do charge for my services like most everybody else, but to say it's ALL about the money, well, that's another thing, and that would be inaccurate. there have been many times (believe me, i lost count -- and besides, i never started counting in the first place) when i rendered service for free for my songwriter friends, or friends who simply needed a good minus one for an event, or for somebody who needed an arranger for a graduation song, etc., and that was entirely for free. but you see, sir, i really don't need to convince you, in pretty much the same token as i really didn't need to convince anybody else in this forum. as our brother, magz, has already pointed out.

it's really NOT all about the money, for most of us. if that money didn't buy comfort and education for my children, food that nourished them and kept them healthy, if the things that money could buy didn't bring even a bit of happiness to people that matter to me, then money would mean nothing to me.

and Marvin is right, everything is subjective... but the discussion should be objective with a subjective kind of view and not the other way around...
and marvin is right again that we should take steps towards improving the industry and i thought that was the direction the thread was moving towards to....
instead the thread is turning into a "you dont know anything and i know better" spit out... (which for the record, "i never claim i knew any better, i was merely pointing things out, read "devils advocate part below...)

and in all fairness to Marvin, i dont know him (personally or musically for that matter) and he doesn't know me either... Marvin is inside the industry and im not..  his views are totally different than mine, and i understood that from the get go... like marvin said its a subjective thing .... and its cool like that..
i definitely can see where he's coming from but i cant say for sure i will fully understand until i am faced with the same stuff he is talking about... i would be lying if i say, yeah i totally understand what marvin is talking about ....

Marvin, i totally agree with you... maybe i was wrong to think that you are implying to people (including me)  to "put out or shut up" while you're sitting on your "high chair" typing these things .... then again it sure sounded that way....

and just to clarify where I'm (the newbie) is coming from...
I am in a band called sodapop suicide... we are an electronic/alternative/poprock band from new jersey u.s.a. writing/composing/recording OPM music... you can check out the link on myspace on my signature...
and yes we only write original songs....
also we are part of a group of youngs bands spearheaded by Ted Reyes www.tedreyes.com, a great producer/composer who penned the hit "Bye Bye" na for Rivermaya (if anyone here doesnt know yet, Rivermaya broke up).....  we are under soulworks records  www.soulworksrecords.com who only produces OPM from fil-am (filipino american bands) ... check out  www.poptimesmagazine.com we are trying to continue the tradition of great OPM... check out the original releases from soulworks records... bands like Bleud, The Kwagos, The happy Analogues have release their own cd of original OPM...
and to clarify more things
- all of the artists i mentioned have day jobs and doesn't rely on their music for money
- all the artist i mentioned funded their own cd (do it yourself guerrilla style)
- we are trying to promote OPM here in the USA and has collaborated with  The Speaks, Glenn Jacinto on shows, Parokya ni Edgar, Bamboo, Rivermaya, Barbie, etc etc...

so I guess what i'm trying to say is, yes, we here in the USA are doing OUR part to revive OPM and support the creativity/originality of OPM...
I didn't really want to do this and it sounds like i'm just promoting myself and my friends...
and I dont want to sound like " i'm typing on my high chair" as well...
so i guess what I'm trying to say is "we are doing our fair share of helping the industry".. and we are not making any money out of this but instead we are using  our own money out of love for OPM....
and it saddens us to see only "unoriginal" music dominating the industry today...
and did I mention we only buy Original OPM CD's... 
but how can you be enticed to buy what is in the industry today... (thank god for my current fave, radioactive sago.... )

- and somebody pls help me with something here... i want to know how much percent of the total cd sales of OPM comes from overseas...??


eniway back to the topic...

With all due respect, now that you have mentioned about your right to show your opinion because this is a public forum - please be civil enough also to accept views contrary to your own.  I have followed this thread and I believe Marvin was just defending his points also.  Di ba ikaw mismo ang nagsabi sa first reply mo that you were going to take the stand of a 'DEVIL'S ADVOCATE"?  Being one means you are taking a completely opposite view of a person's set of opinions and PURPOSELY invites him to defend his stand against yours.  Unfortunately, Marvin has proven to be one of the most articulate artists who continues to bring relevant issues to the ears of the industry.

exactly, i did take the "devils advocate" stand.... i made that very clear from the get go so no one misunderstands where my inquiries are from... I was looking for answers myself and doesnt mind contradictions... but such inquiries are met with seemingly "At that time"  "personal attacks" instead....

 ..

this industry has survived no thanks to people who really have nothing else to do but voice out an opinion, and merely observe afterwards

i know now that they were not "personal attacks" per se but with statements like the one above without ever knowing where the other side is coming from.. it seems all too personal at that time...
but now that everyone here knows where I'm coming from, i have no regrets on whatever i said....
because i know I'm doing "my part", "my steps", to help the industry....

now, I'm really done....

Kudos to Kedysanchez...

well, my friend, i'm glad a lot of things have been cleared from both our ends. i guess kedy put it pretty clearly -- walang pera ang record companies, and while so many years back, a lot of money has been made by record companies who place their bets on original material, so many changes have taken place, and to keep on doing the same things might be too risky for those companies. i'm not really sure if it was a wrong move for them to have put their money on "recycled" material -- i wanna put up a company to help put 'indie' artists closer to the mainstream, but i'm not quite sure if i would have to resort to doing those same things (that is, doing remakes) later on, just for the sake of surviving, in which case, my company would just be redundant.

* by the way, sorry for that 'newbie' remark. i thought that was what you said. scrolling down made me realize you didn't -- you called yourself 'budding musician'

[marvinq]

for most of us here, it's ALL about the music, whether or not the music we're working on is original...

but money is ALWAYS welcome.

mabuhay ang mga musikong pinoy sa iba't-ibang sulok nitong daigdig.

Mabuhay... in the truest sense of the word. Buhayin natin ulit ang musikang pinoy. Kaya natin ito pag tulung-tulong.

[soundslikebryan]

Ang gagaling nyong mag-lecture, magbigay ng sariling opinyon at mga pananaw na nakahilera lang sa iisang tuon ng inyong isip, pero hindi nyo tinitignan ang mga sinasabi nyo.

Pera, musika, industriya.........


Its all about the music.....sure.......why not, I didn't say you needed to convince me, I'm asking you, and I'm stating what is in fact the most obvious thing in the world. Everything is a trade. You have a talent, you have the genius, you have something to say, you want to promote something, you want to get known. The thing is you don't have the resource.

Its all about the money.....why not? Why are you ashamed 'that it all boils down' to this'. Yes, I'm using that phrase, because it is true. They make tributes to such artists using these, (well), not too known artists/breakout artists, to promote them as well. Why promote them? So they could be known to the world, that they produce good music, they sound good, we can groove with their uniqueness and so that these artists will be compensated good. Again, its money.

Being all about the money is not that bad. It doesn't make you less of an artist or it doesn't demean you, it doesn't mean that you're just in it for the money. In order for you to really know that your good deeds are well recognized, you need to see if your'e compensated well enough. You get good responses, you are known.

In the first place, I agree with you. I just stated the obvious about the topic na most artists now, just do covers kasi, they don't have the talent to create new music, so they could get recognized and get compensation. They wouldn't be in the industry if they just wanted to play in front of crowd...right? They want to get paid. Big pay, means they are getting their 15 minutes of fame extended. Again, its money.

Its not bad, its actually a good thing. Don't be afraid to say that I need to be compensated for the work I've done. I've done an exceptional job. I worked long hours, just to get these done and with very high standards. I'm not just going to settle for a happy meal for that, are you?

My work is not related to the industry, but I consider myself musically inclined and a closet musician. The thing is, I work hard on my chosen practice. I love to help people get into their first homes. I love to see them see their kids go to college with enough savings for them to retire on. I love tending to needy ones who are about to lose their home and still give them the vacation that they needed. I don't overcharge, hell, I even pay for them to give them their business. You see, at face value, what I do would seem to be charity, so its not about the money. Well it is. I get compensated by my company very well, and I accept it. No accident, not a consequence. Why, because I earned it. I deserve it.

I'm ending my discourse here and let you guys continue on your arguments.

Rock 'n Roll!!!!!

Long live OPM.

[marvinq]

well then, sir, we'll just have to agree to disagree. coz it'll never be ALL the music for me. i didn't spend hours everyday practicing hoping one day this career will earn me lots of money. this isn't to say it's a bad thing either. i'm just saying i'm not in it for the money. i've done things during the course of this 20 year (and counting) career that my peers have disagreed with, mainly because it wasn't going to be a financially profitable venture. as a matter of fact, it was like i was taking a huge paycut.

and also, if it's not too much trouble for you, please don't put words into my mouth -- i never said the artists doing covers didn't have talent to create new music -- YOU said it, not i.

for most of the work i've done, i was compensated. but don't underestimate what your musician brothers and sisters (they're your brothers and sisters, coz you call yourself a closet musician) could do even if there was no money involved. if you think there aren't a lot of us who'd still be making music even if there was no money involved, then sir, you're mistaken.

money? an accident? yes. because i'd still be playing my music just as much as i am right now, even if i didn't earn from it.

Ang gagaling nyong mag-lecture, magbigay ng sariling opinyon at mga pananaw na nakahilera lang sa iisang tuon ng inyong isip, pero hindi nyo tinitignan ang mga sinasabi nyo.

....Its not bad, its actually a good thing. Don't be afraid to say that I need to be compensated for the work I've done. I've done an exceptional job. I worked long hours, just to get these done and with very high standards. I'm not just going to settle for a happy meal for that, are you?

My work is not related to the industry, but I consider myself musically inclined and a closet musician. The thing is, I work hard on my chosen practice. I love to help people get into their first homes. I love to see them see their kids go to college with enough savings for them to retire on. I love tending to needy ones who are about to lose their home and still give them the vacation that they needed. I don't overcharge, hell, I even pay for them to give them their business. You see, at face value, what I do would seem to be charity, so its not about the money. Well it is. I get compensated by my company very well, and I accept it. No accident, not a consequence. Why, because I earned it. I deserve it....

Long live OPM.

well, sir, if you're doing whatever it is you're doing just purely for the money (a.k.a. "in it for the money", "all about the money", etc. -- not a bad thing), then that's what differentiates you from me, and some fellow musicians i know. whether you accept it or not, talagang "FOR THE LOVE OF..." kami ng tropa ko, at masaya kami pag may dumadating na pera.