simultaneous vocal lay in & multi headphones DI box setup

[stanley]

sir kit, in the console view of sonar, we see stereo, phase and input echo buttons in every single track, the default of phase is normal and when i click phase button it indicate inverted, pareho ba ng result ito as phase cancellation? and when do i use phase invert in a track, how it affects in the sounds as a whole.   

[Agent_So]

mga sir.. tama ba gagawin ko.. i use banana plug kasi for speaker out mula sa amp to speaker.. kung babaliktarin ko eto, magkakaroon na ng phase cancellation??/

and does this improve the feedback youre getting?

[neil_squadron]

sir tanong ko lng kng saan yung audiophile dyan sa manila available yung S-amp headphone amp

san dn po dyn sa manila yung behringer availble yung HA-400

i,m lookng for the same item po just like bindoy..

taga baguio pa po kc hnd ko kabisado kng san ko hanapin mismo

na check ko nung feb sa behringer sa alimall cubao...out of stock daw
we rily need it badly hope you guys can help us.

yung specific na lugar at store po sna..

tnx tnx in advance..

you can pm me lng kng skali

much apreciation and tnx in advance

[KitC]

sir kit, in the console view of sonar, we see stereo, phase and input echo buttons in every single track, the default of phase is normal and when i click phase button it indicate inverted, pareho ba ng result ito as phase cancellation? and when do i use phase invert in a track, how it affects in the sounds as a whole.   

The phase button is more commonly used in stereo miking or multiple mic situations. There is the so-called "3:1 rule" when stereo miking where the distance of one mic to the other should be 3 times or more the distance from the source. This means if one mic is 6" away from the sound source, the other mic should be 18 or more inches away from the other mic to prevent cancellation of SOME frequencies. Usually, it's the bass frequencies that are affected, while mids and highs less so.

Reversing phase in Sonar works the same way however this means your tracks have already been recorded. It would have been better if all phase problems were corrected prior to recording. In any event, the capability is there mostly as a corrective measure if retracking is not an option.

If you want to hear the effects of cancellation (or rather, not hear), copy a mono clip from one track to another making sure they have the same start times then flip the phase on one track. The 2 should cancel each other out completely. If you want to simulate vocal cancelling technology used by some karaokes, get a stereo track of any song where the vocals are centered and flip the phase on ONE channel (either left or right). You will most likely hear the reverb tail on the vocal (and the bass will almost disappear).

[stanley]

ok tenks sir    Gbu.

[bindoy]

sir kit, in the console view of sonar, we see stereo, phase and input echo buttons in every single track, the default of phase is normal and when i click phase button it indicate inverted, pareho ba ng result ito as phase cancellation? and when do i use phase invert in a track, how it affects in the sounds as a whole.   

The phase button is more commonly used in stereo miking or multiple mic situations. There is the so-called "3:1 rule" when stereo miking where the distance of one mic to the other should be 3 times or more the distance from the source. This means if one mic is 6" away from the sound source, the other mic should be 18 or more inches away from the other mic to prevent cancellation of SOME frequencies. Usually, it's the bass frequencies that are affected, while mids and highs less so.

Reversing phase in Sonar works the same way however this means your tracks have already been recorded. It would have been better if all phase problems were corrected prior to recording. In any event, the capability is there mostly as a corrective measure if retracking is not an option.

If you want to hear the effects of cancellation (or rather, not hear), copy a mono clip from one track to another making sure they have the same start times then flip the phase on one track. The 2 should cancel each other out completely. If you want to simulate vocal cancelling technology used by some karaokes, get a stereo track of any song where the vocals are centered and flip the phase on ONE channel (either left or right). You will most likely hear the reverb tail on the vocal (and the bass will almost disappear).

whoa!great info sir kitC!!!

[stanley]

sir kitC, paki explain po ang function ng post fader sa console view ng sonar, when i inserted send to bus and click the button mark with P  to "on" it indicate bus post fader.    Gbu.

[KitC]

I don't have Sonar open at the moment, medyo resource hog ang Sonar 6, but I can tell you that sends are pre- or post-fader in relation to the volume fader you see in the console. This means that when set to post, the signal you are sending to the sends are affected by the volume fader. This is useful for fx where you want their level to be consistent with volume fades you perform on your track. In some cases, you want the fx to be prefader so that the track volume doesn't affect the level going to the fx. It's like when you want the main track to fade leaving only the reverb in the track; if this was post fader, you cannot achieve that effect. AFAIK, in Sonar, you turn on the send by clicking on a green indicator light. pressing a 'P' or 'Pre' button turns it prefader.

[stanley]

got it now sir kit !    .....i hear now the discrepancies and effects, and maybe move a little bit pan at the bus could be more exciting to hear, tenks sir    Gbu.

[bindoy]

peace to all! sir kitC

nagkaruon na din ng chance try ung set up po. with the behringer HA 400 Micro amp DI phones box..

medyo magulo...hehehe...di masyado maganda yung labas ng monitor e...too much static...as in suffering talaga sa mga singers...di nga madiagnose kung san nanggagaling ung main problem talaga...Plus, yung routing parang di tama..parang kulang...parang mali...di ko lam...ewan ko ba...

Fortunately...maganda naman kinalabasan ng output ng recording..which is the main point kung para san to...ung process medyo sabog sabog lang...

sir kitC...eto nga pala nangyari...hayaan nyo muna po ko ipakita..based dun sa connection namin kagabi, eto ung mga nakita ko ginawa nila.

gear muna:

Pioneer DVD HDD player (for Recording)
Rode NT1a (vocal layin)
Behringer UB1204 (board for the condenser mic)
CD player (routed from the peavey mixer)
Peavey Old mixer (board for the CD player +++)
Behringer HA 400 (minus 1 and vocal monitor)
4 pcs stereo closed headphones

so eto yung pagkakaconnect sa tingin ko...

Rode NT1a >>> UB1204 >>> DVD player

DVD recorder >>>out to peavey mixer for vocal sound

CD player >>> out to peavey mixer for minus 1

peavey mixer >>> behringer HA 400 >>> headphones

eto ata ang naging setup.di ko nga lam baket kinailangan pa ng dalawang mixer e...di daw maiwasan...
sobrang static nung monitors...grabe!sabog!tyaga lang talaga mga singers kumanta kahit masaket tenga nila.plus delayed pa ung pickup ng vocal monitoring sa headphones. di daw maiiwasan...i'm really not sure kung totoo to.

ang duda ko talaga kung baket ganito ang tunog ng monitoring is bukod may mali sa routing..ung mga wires and cables na gamit namin...halo halo! RCA/PL/mini PL ...whaaaaaa! kaya pagpinagdugtungdugtung..ala!ewan!presstime kasi kagabi e.patapos, open area recording pa kami.hehehe.

baket kaya ganito?salamat.gbu

+++ nga pala...we also had the chance to use my SM57 sa recording!!! we recorded a Guitar solo!ang ganda talaga ng SM57...1st time nilabas to kagabi.hehehehe.astig talaga!gamit namin 90's peavey 15" Guitar amp and strat copy..astig!lawak ng tunog!

[KitC]

So, I take it na vocals lang ni-record ng dvd player mo. You could have routed the cd into the 1204 tape in para kasama ang cd music sa taping. Yun lang, what-you-hear-is-what-you-get (WYHIWYG) pagdating sa recording; no separation of vocals from music kaya dapat puro perfect take yan.

Pagdating naman sa headphone amp, san kinabit yan sa peavey? Should either be sa tape outs/control room outs or even aux out (with proper aux sending of cd channel, of course). Assuming connections are correct, always check cables for continuity.

[bindoy]

So, I take it na vocals lang ni-record ng dvd player mo. You could have routed the cd into the 1204 tape in para kasama ang cd music sa taping. Yun lang, what-you-hear-is-what-you-get (WYHIWYG) pagdating sa recording; no separation of vocals from music kaya dapat puro perfect take yan.

Pagdating naman sa headphone amp, san kinabit yan sa peavey? Should either be sa tape outs/control room outs or even aux out (with proper aux sending of cd channel, of course). Assuming connections are correct, always check cables for continuity.

peace sir kitC...astig!may bago acronym ako natutunan..kaso nakakahilo di ko mamemorize..hehehe...

pero seryoso na sir, eto po...tama kayo... Vocal Recording lang talaga habol namin...i have the minus 1 on cubase...so nilapat ko lang ung vocals...and it went well naman...palagay ko malaking bagay talaga ung Rode NT1a sa process(pasakalye muna sa endorso ahihihi)

dun sa second paragraph nyo sir ako talaga may concern..di ko sure kasi kung san nakakakabit ung HA400 e..papapalit palit na kami nung gabi...plus ung mga RCA/PL/mini PL/vice versa - versa vice  anu ba yan >>> nagkanda halo halo na talaga...so palagay ko talaga, tama kayo...assuming correct all connections.... cables ang duda...

tatanung ko din ito this day pakita ko replies nyo para maliwanagan din sila...ok...ngatz.gbu

[bindoy]

peace sir kitC...kausap ko ung mga kasama ko...and tama kayo...nasa tamang out naman >> aux out..

so ala na talagang salarin kungdi ang mga cables...tignan namin dis week kung san makakabili ng mga RCA/PL/stereo/mono/mini PLs etc...

salamat sir...sir, dun ba sa connection namin, may igaganda pa ba un?o pwede na un?

salamat sir.gbu

[KitC]

bindoy,

I believe in direct connections with the minimum use of adapter/converters, and the shortest possible cabling length between components. Mga adapters kasi, aside from getting misplaced and lost, sometimes develop an oxidation film at their points of contact over time. Aside from making noisy connections, given the right conditions, these can act like cat's whisker diodes and start receiving radio signals! Frequent cleaning and maintenance of the contacts becomes a must. I prefer to dispense with the adapters and make cables with the specific connectors; contact oxidation now becomes limited to those connectors only.

Also, cheap cables often have poor shielding and are especially prone to breakage when pulled or even bent! Get good quality cables with a good amount of wire content; some of these cheap 'cables' are so crappy that I'm not sure the wires even contain copper because they break too easily.  Cables also can act as antennas when these are overly long that's why it's better to use balanced cables, but since this isn't always advisable, it's best to use the shortest possible length when using unbalanced. The rule of thumb is to use unbalanced cables 5 meters or shorter as much as possible; you're really pushing your luck with 20'-25' cables.

[bindoy]

bindoy,

I believe in direct connections with the minimum use of adapter/converters, and the shortest possible cabling length between components. Mga adapters kasi, aside from getting misplaced and lost, sometimes develop an oxidation film at their points of contact over time. Aside from making noisy connections, given the right conditions, these can act like cat's whisker diodes and start receiving radio signals! Frequent cleaning and maintenance of the contacts becomes a must. I prefer to dispense with the adapters and make cables with the specific connectors; contact oxidation now becomes limited to those connectors only.

Also, cheap cables often have poor shielding and are especially prone to breakage when pulled or even bent! Get good quality cables with a good amount of wire content; some of these cheap 'cables' are so crappy that I'm not sure the wires even contain copper because they break too easily.  Cables also can act as antennas when these are overly long that's why it's better to use balanced cables, but since this isn't always advisable, it's best to use the shortest possible length when using unbalanced. The rule of thumb is to use unbalanced cables 5 meters or shorter as much as possible; you're really pushing your luck with 20'-25' cables.

ok sir kitC salamat sir sa paliwanag nyo...nakakamangha!hehehe.thanks thanks thanks!!!siguro if we'll get the specifics na sa connections...papagawa kami nang nakaplastar na na cables(with different ends) para dun sa area of routing. in this way, ala ng palitan.iwas pa sa ingay..salamat sir.gbu

[KitC]

I can teach you the right way to route things, Ramon. See the rewiring we did at PIMP. Daan ka minsan dito sa amin when you have time.

[bindoy]

I can teach you the right way to route things, Ramon. See the rewiring we did at PIMP. Daan ka minsan dito sa amin when you have time.

ramon, anu ba yan...pormal!hehehe sir kitC kain tayo ulet Pizza! Paging Jepoy! libre ulet Pizza!!!astig na siguro lalo ang PIMP ngyon!nilagyan nyo na kasi ng Thumbmark e...hehhe...sige sir naku, sana nga pwede araw araw e...

ngatz.gbu

[bindoy]

peace sir kitC eto ung diagram o...

[mikep]

Bindoy, I am not quite familiar with the UB1204 mixer but it seems it has a pre fader switch.  With that, I think the better way of doing your recording, if you do not want the vocals recorded to tape is, - mic to input 1 of mixer.  Connect DVD to Tape output of your mixer, which is in parallel to the main output of the mixer and is -10.  Connect your CD player into inputs 5/6 or any inputs 2 to 8.  Open up the aux send pot of the mic.  Do the same with the CD which plays the backing tracks.  Press pre-fader switch of  the CD so that you can monitor the backing tracks without putting up the faders of the CD input, otherwise the backing tracks will be recorded together with the voice.  Press also the pre-fader switch of the vocal input.  Balance the sound going into the DVD recorder by making the choir sing using channel fader and seeing to it that your VU meters hit just a little over or under 0 Vu.  Connect your headphone amp into the output of aux send 1.  Balance backing tracks and vox so that the singers can hear both in a very nice fashion, using the aux send1 master for the proper volume level.  Hit record!  To monitor what you have recorded, connect the output of DVD to the tape input of the mixer. 

Your noise problems, I believe come from multiple connections as well as mismatched impedances - -10 and +4 connections, plus your long cable lines.  Also,too much routing or connections can also cause latency problems.

Make your routing simple.  Shorter cables and less connections make recordings clearer and fuller.

Am I making sense?  Correct me if I'm wrong.  FWIW

[KitC]

Mike seems to have said it all but let me add just a little bit...

The UB1204 apparently has an Alt 3/4 bus so it's entirely possible to route vocals to the recorder using that. Unfortunately, in any configuration, you can only route a mix of all vocals to the recorder so there is no way of separating each individual voice, which is not needed since I assume the dvd recorder is only recording in stereo. By using the aux bus and output, you can route vocals only to the recorder and monitor it thru the main outs at the same time. You can patch the cd player at the tape ins, or into a stereo channel as MikeP suggests so that you have level control over the cd player. Use the control room outs for sending a signal to the headphone amp.

See? Everything can be handled simply by using the 1204 itself without involving the Peavey. I'm assuming the Peavey is a powered amp so I believe it's driving your PA system, right? Simply feed the 1204's main outs to your PA amplifier. If you have a good grasp of electronics, just consult the UB1204's routing diagram. It shows how signals are routed and how the busses interact with the various inputs and outputs; that usually gets me out of a bind when I'm faced with unfamiliar gear.

[bindoy]

thanks sir mikeP and sir kitC!!! pero teka muna po...info overload!hehehe...hayaan ko munang magsink in ung mga info...hehehe..papabasa ko din sa mga kasamahan ko ung mga payo nyo para matry namin agad...salamat...timing talaga to!kasi pabili na kami ng cables ngyon e...buti nalang nabasa ko agad to...heheh...

gbu

[mikep]

Just watch out on your connections, levels and impedance matching.  Good luck and God bless.