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The Musician Forums => Pinoydrums => Topic started by: Bammbamm on August 02, 2007, 10:40:08 AM

Title: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: Bammbamm on August 02, 2007, 10:40:08 AM

 :-D  When  and How do you make them?.....and when not to?   :wink:

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: daemonite on August 02, 2007, 11:38:55 AM

for me, usually after the stanza before the chorus, before / after the bridge, tapos sa mga fade out ng kanta.

when not to.... sa gitna ng stanza kapag ine-emote ng vocals yung kanta. nakakasira ng feel ng song, kapag di mo matiis magfill, gamit ka na lang ng splash or chimes hehehehe....

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: Bammbamm on August 02, 2007, 01:30:43 PM

^^^uhmm....that's quite obvious...okish, let's make it a bit 'technical'....how do you make 'em fills tasty, unique, and original ?

How do you make them 'connect' with the basic groove of the song?..or create 'tension' without sounding too far out?  :wink:

Dont you notice that most (not all) pop music have very similar fills/feel.... :roll:.... very predictable?....or they're meant to be that way because it's 'pop'?  :|

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: daemonite on August 02, 2007, 01:44:46 PM

yup, most of the pop music pareho ang fills nya, tug padudug dug. hehehe. siguro mas ine-emphasize nila ang vocals kaya parang basic grooves lang ang ginagamit.

pero kung pano mo sya gawin kasarap-sarap, experimentation na lang yan. usually i practice fills before i put them in live gigs kasi mahirap sumabit. about being unique and original, siguro thorough research na lang. experiment ka rin, baliktadin mo mga patterns and if it sounds good, eh di bagong fill na yun hehehe....

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: Bammbamm on August 02, 2007, 02:05:47 PM

Im trying to learn and apply this metric modulation thing sa fills eh...pareho din ba sya nung  tinatawag na beat displacement?

Anyone here have seen Gavin Harrison's instructional video entitled Rhythmic Visions?

Rhythmic Illusion is the title of one of his books...sorry!  :oops:

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: bugoy_king on August 02, 2007, 06:49:01 PM

Magkaiba yung metric modulation at beat displacement.

This is my personal take:

Beat displacement is how the notes are spread out over the bar(s). Yung metric modulation is parang playing in a different time signature while still inside the time signature of the tune. Weird concept siya, madalas maririnig yan kay Vinnie Colaiuta. Parang tumutugtog ka ng 5/8 pero nasa loob parin ng 4/4. Hehe, weird talaga siya, di ko rin maintindihan gaano, much more magawa.

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: feed_back on August 02, 2007, 08:28:03 PM

i love the three two fill na ginagawa ng friend ko hindi ko pa makuha yung attitude ng fill pero astig egoy na egoy hehehe

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: kibohead on August 02, 2007, 08:32:30 PM

i have a gavin harisson. ok yung displacement, but it's also nice if the guitar line itself displaces notes tapos ikaw mismo ang nag-lalaro lang sa 4/4. :-) or let's make an example...pde din yung guitar lines play 6/8 tapos the bassist and ikaw plays 7/4. ganda ng effect. drum displacements are nice but somehow affects the grrove, lalo na pag-song based ang habol ng band...but i dig you bamm, ok ang displacements...so does linear drumming.

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: bugoy_king on August 02, 2007, 08:38:02 PM

Ito may example ng metric modulation na galing kay Vinnie Colaiuta. Uhmm...complicated lang masyado para sa akin hehehe. There's a link for an .mp3 sample in the page

http://www.vinniecolaiuta.com/articles/smm.aspx

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: palolo_worm on August 02, 2007, 11:38:22 PM

Quote from: Bammbamm on August 02, 2007, 02:05:47 PM

Im trying to learn and apply this metric modulation thing sa fills eh...pareho din ba sya nung  tinatawag na beat displacement?

Anyone here have seen Gavin Harrison's instructional video entitled Rhythmic Illusion?

mmm. sa pagkakaintindi ko, ung metric modulation ay pagmomodulate (or pagiiba) ng metro. tama ba? :) if so, medyo may ginagawa akong thingy dun. example, meron kameng kanta na ang metro ng guitars and bass ay 7/4 + 5/4. pero ako, tumutog ako ng 3 bars of 4/4. un ba ung metric modulation? :)

tapos beat displacement, i think medyo in line siya back beat, or kung ano man ung beat na nakasanayan sa kanta. kunwari sa rock, 2 at 4 ung snare, moving it to another count displaces it. :) matagal ko nang napagaralan ung term na to, kaya nalimutan ko na. ahahaha.

anyways, sa paggawa ng tasty fillings sa tinapay, usually peanut butter ok na sa akin. hahaa.
pero seriously, i take my phrasing seriously when making fills.

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: Bammbamm on August 03, 2007, 09:36:54 AM

Salamat sa mga replies nyo mga braderrs! :-)

@ Palolo;  Yes, I guess beat displacement and metric modulation are two different thing. Beat displacement nga yung down beat ilalagay mo sa upbeat, and vice-versa, or madi-delay or advance sya ng 16th, quarter or 8th note.....mag Chips-ahoy nlang siguro ako... :-D

@ Bugoy_King;

Yung metric modulation.... :roll:....di ba parang nag d-double or half time ka ?.. :oops:...or  magkaiba ng grouping ng mga notes mo; like your playing group of, let's say seven or five sa hihats, but you're still playing the typical 2 and 4 on the snare...?..tama ba  :?
 :roll:

@ Kibohead;  Lalo  mo ata ako pinahirapan dun ah, odd-time.. :-D


But thanks again sa lahat ng nag reply! Keep 'em comin'.
God bless!   :-)

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: bugoy_king on August 03, 2007, 11:28:36 AM

Quote from: Bammbamm on August 03, 2007, 09:36:54 AM

@ Bugoy_King;

Yung metric modulation.... :roll:....di ba parang nag d-double or half time ka ?.. :oops:...or  magkaiba ng grouping ng mga notes mo; like your playing group of, let's say seven or five sa hihats, but you're still playing the typical 2 and 4 on the snare...?..tama ba  :?
 :roll:

Hmmm, hindi ata eh, yung tunog lang nun parang nag half time kaya nakaka-deceive, pero pag tiningnan mo yung chart nung kay Colaiuta, kung saan-saan bumabagsak yung "backbeat" nya (the "&" of 2, "&" of 1, "&" of 4, "&" of 1, respectively, according to example #2 in the previous link). Yung tunog nya parang nag half-time shuffle, pero di nagbago yung 4/4 at yung tempo nya.

Hahaha, weird talaga, baka mali rin ako ha, di ko rin fully grasp yung concept, I'm just sharing what I think is happening. Anyway, gaya din ng sinabi ni Colaiuta, just fool around, huwag nalang natin isipin yung technical details masyado, lest mawalan ng sarap at pagka human feel

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: kibohead on August 03, 2007, 12:10:19 PM

to understand more of metric modulations bamm...i suggest you get steve smith's "drumset techniques", and if you want to learn displacement, i suggest you get gavin harrison's "rythm illusions". displacements are better practiced with a metronome... subdivisions might also play a vital role. goodluck there bro! :-)
and if you're also interested to afro cuban playing and clave(2-3 and 3-2, fast mambo and so on)...hehehe i think you should get "funkyfying the clave" by robie ameen and lincoln goines, it's a bass and drum lesson.

godbless...sayang di tayo nag-meet pa sa EBs  :-)

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: Bammbamm on August 03, 2007, 01:20:24 PM

@ Kibohead & Bugoy_king;

Thank you very much guys.

Bugoy, Yes, I guess I shouldn't bother too much about technical details, but spend more time listening and learning the right feel instead. Thanks, man!

Kibo, that's where Im focusing right now; metronome in 90 bps, make a solid groove, then mess up with the time..lol! Luckily, Im able to go back to 'one' most of the time. :-D  ...pero check ko din ulit yung vid ni S.Smith mamaya..

....Its gonna be another GAS relapse for that Funkyfying the Clave lesson, may play-along na kasama yun diba?

I'll see you at EB, hopefully sa Feb next year!

Salamat ulit!

God Bless  :-)

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: inigo on August 03, 2007, 02:21:26 PM

I never knew fills got scientific! :D

Limited ang vocabulary ko sa filling so...

All I know is, fills fill, as in nagtatakip ng butas. Kung may butas, pwedeng i-fill. Pag may laman na, you might overspill, which is good if you intend to saturate that particular part.

Slower off beat (but meets the metro eventually) e.g. 3s or 5s on 4/4 if I want to attract attention to the bagsak right after, as a transition.

Rigid to the count (e.g. quarters on 4/4) if I want to just continue the previous feel without attracting much attention. Or, if I want to accentuate or re-establish the current feel. Faster if I want to cue a different section but still retaining the feel.

Fills that continue till the bagsak are meant to maintain he momentum or gradually slide it up or down. Fills that leave a space before the bagsak are meant to accentuate the bagsak.

Dynamics would depend on whether I want to build up, tear down, or maintain the intensity of the overall poste.

Yun na lang muna. Practice muna ako. Hehehe.

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: meinldrummer on August 03, 2007, 02:29:40 PM

Metric modulation ok yan!!! :-D

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: kibohead on August 03, 2007, 07:15:10 PM

understanding the lyrics and mood might also help you create the appropriate fill for the song... ok tumugtog ng galing sa dibdib diba? iba talaga yun, but hindi rin masama pag-isipan din ang fills na i-execute para walang masagasaan na part at hindi masapawan ang ginagawa ng ka-miyembro.

for me fills are a way of bridging the music, it doesn't have to be technical all the time. as long as it sounds good to my ears and bandmates...ok na sa akin yun. :-)

ok din to listen and study other drummers especially who play different genres...dami ka matututunan and it also allows you to patch some fills...fuse them together to create a good sound. tulad ng rossana groove which was a combination of bonham and purdie's shuffle. :-)

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: drummer_boy17 on August 03, 2007, 09:12:45 PM

pag feel na feel mo yun music di mo maiiwasan na mg lagay ng mga ibang fills.

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: franco on August 03, 2007, 10:18:55 PM

Quote from: inigo on August 03, 2007, 02:21:26 PM

I never knew fills got scientific! :D

Limited ang vocabulary ko sa filling so...

All I know is, fills fill, as in nagtatakip ng butas. Kung may butas, pwedeng i-fill. Pag may laman na, you might overspill, which is good if you intend to saturate that particular part.

Slower off beat (but meets the metro eventually) e.g. 3s or 5s on 4/4 if I want to attract attention to the bagsak right after, as a transition.

Rigid to the count (e.g. quarters on 4/4) if I want to just continue the previous feel without attracting much attention. Or, if I want to accentuate or re-establish the current feel. Faster if I want to cue a different section but still retaining the feel.

Fills that continue till the bagsak are meant to maintain he momentum or gradually slide it up or down. Fills that leave a space before the bagsak are meant to accentuate the bagsak.

Dynamics would depend on whether I want to build up, tear down, or maintain the intensity of the overall poste.

Yun na lang muna. Practice muna ako. Hehehe.

sakto yan boy! mas malagkit yung palo pag di naeexagerrate yung tasty licks/fills

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: Bammbamm on August 04, 2007, 03:27:09 PM

Quote from: inigo on August 03, 2007, 02:21:26 PM

I never knew fills got scientific! :D

Limited ang vocabulary ko sa filling so...

All I know is, fills fill, as in nagtatakip ng butas. Kung may butas, pwedeng i-fill. Pag may laman na, you might overspill, which is good if you intend to saturate that particular part.

Slower off beat (but meets the metro eventually) e.g. 3s or 5s on 4/4 if I want to attract attention to the bagsak right after, as a transition.

Rigid to the count (e.g. quarters on 4/4) if I want to just continue the previous feel without attracting much attention. Or, if I want to accentuate or re-establish the current feel. Faster if I want to cue a different section but still retaining the feel.

Fills that continue till the bagsak are meant to maintain he momentum or gradually slide it up or down. Fills that leave a space before the bagsak are meant to accentuate the bagsak.

Dynamics would depend on whether I want to build up, tear down, or maintain the intensity of the overall poste.

Yun na lang muna. Practice muna ako. Hehehe.

You got it there , bro.  Mag c-create ka ng tension by playing fills na medyo hindi ine-expect ng nakikinig na babagsak sya ng sakto sa 'one'...yung tipong mapapa-angat sa upuan yung makakarinig, lilingon sayo yung ka banda mo,... sabay pag palo mo ng cymbal saktong sakto sya sa bagsakan- Bang!...relief!   :-D

Maganda to pag patapos na yung adlib ng guitara tapos may break sa dulo, then balik uli sa verse, pero between verses..ewan ko lang kung matuwa yung vocalist sa'yo.  :lol:


You can check out the song And Justice for All by Metallica, ang galing ng ginawa ni Lars Ulrich dun mismo sa kanta na yun, saka yung drum solo part sa Ducks & Cookies ni Nils Gessinger.  :-)

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: drummerboy827 on August 05, 2007, 09:30:54 AM

I find Josh Freese's fills creative. Lagi nakakaiba. Also Danny Carey, his fills are musical and technical at the same time.  8-)

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: sunny on August 06, 2007, 01:39:55 AM

To me, you do your tasty fills(simple or complex) when you want to,or its time to present the next part of (or end) the song or present or end the solo of your band member...

-Sunny
The Hot Spot Jazz Band

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: toybitz on August 06, 2007, 02:28:03 AM

imho...

fills becomes tasty when put in the right place...when it serves a song...

if a songs needs more..then by no means it does give me goosebumps where and whenever it's struck..same if a song needs less..

example of more is from the band Temple of the Dog, song is Your Saviour (Matt Cameron)...

and less...U2's With or Without You (Larry Mullen) just right...a beat before Bono sings "whoa..."

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: Bammbamm on August 06, 2007, 08:55:52 AM

Yung groove sa intro ni Carter Beauford sa kantang Grey Street ng Dave Matthews Band, tapos fill bago magsimula yung verse.....always amazes me. :-)

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: BiliBidboy on August 06, 2007, 10:02:10 AM

for me a long buzz usually does the trick! cguro depende din sa song. sakit kse ng mga drummers ang "KATI" sa pag lagay..minsan overplaying na ang ending...  :mrgreen:

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: toybitz on August 06, 2007, 11:33:14 PM

Quote from: toybitz on August 06, 2007, 02:28:03 AM

imho...

fills becomes tasty when put in the right place...when it serves a song...

if a songs needs more..then by no means it does give me goosebumps where and whenever it's struck..same if a song needs less..

example of more is from the band Temple of the Dog, song is Your Saviour (Matt Cameron)...

and less...U2's With or Without You (Larry Mullen) just right...a beat before Bono sings "whoa..."

teka, parang off ang sagot ko ah!  :-D

tasty fills to me are fills that aren't "gas gas"...but new to the ears...and solidly "in" like Matt Cameron's on Soundgarden albums and Temple of the Dog...

I love Tim Alexander too.  Vinnie C..

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: Bammbamm on August 07, 2007, 10:14:06 AM

^^^ :-D
Nice input, Toybitz. Thanks.


Well, then we can expand this topic into Tasty Groove & Fills Reference Thread!   :-)

Another groove and fills that sweeps me off my seat is David Garibaldi's renditon on Tower of Power's Squib Cake and Eastside...I always find myself gasping for breath!  :lol:

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: inigo on August 07, 2007, 10:51:11 AM

Fills got a renaissance the last decade (no small thanks to Pearl Jam and funk rock), kaya siguro medyo nagsawa ako. I just want to play straight poste with pasingit-singit on the singit (not that I can do much more than this, really... hahaha).

Sabi nga ni Dax (of Purple Haze)... "Maraming magaling, pero iilan lang ang masarap."

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: BiliBidboy on August 07, 2007, 11:54:33 AM

its all about "lagkit ng palo" hehehe kahit simple fill lng sarap pakinggan.. :wink:

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: toybitz on August 08, 2007, 01:37:30 AM

yeah...

another tasty filler is Chad Smith on the Blood Sugar Sex Magik album...

yun Soul to Squeeze, ganda nun fill dun ah..nag end up yun long fill sa open/close hi hat.

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: bugoy_king on August 08, 2007, 10:09:16 AM

Kung "sarap" fills lang ang pag-uusapan, doon na ako kay Jeff Porcaro. Yung mga fill nya Toto songs na I'll Be Over You, Africa (lalo na yung live version), Rosanna, I Won't Hold You Back, etc. hindi masyadong technical, pero napaka-lagkit at napaka-sarap pakinggan

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: metalmuhlisha on August 13, 2007, 06:08:34 PM

all time favorite fills ko parin yung ginagawa nila sean kinney (alice in chains) at martin lopez (ex-opeth).

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: nO RLY on August 17, 2007, 10:28:06 AM

mga fills ni Vic Mercado pati J-hoon ng Kjwan. maganda pakinggan. kay Vic, "complicated" yung fills niya. bale parang andami niyang pinapalo. tapos si J-hoon naman, drum rolls na may magagandang accents pati minsan rim shots na mabibilis. ayos.. 8-)

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: haroniel on August 22, 2007, 03:25:10 PM

A unique fill is something that makes a drummer an individual. I think that makes a fill tasty.. being unique and musical...and of course, proper placement and proper usage. Just be CREATIVE!

Here are some examples of Monster Fills:

Vinnie Colaiuta
http://www.keithcronin.com/licks/aliens.mp3 (http://www.keithcronin.com/licks/aliens.mp3)


Vinnie Colaiuta
http://www.keithcronin.com/licks/vinnie_neon_moonlight.mp3 (http://www.keithcronin.com/licks/vinnie_neon_moonlight.mp3)


Manu Katche
http://www.drummerworld.com/m3u/manukatcheTravellingWest.m3u (http://www.drummerworld.com/m3u/manukatcheTravellingWest.m3u)

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: haroniel on August 23, 2007, 04:42:52 PM

Ang mga sumusunod ay pawang mga opinyon ko lamang.

To make the fill tasty, we need to go back to basics.


BASIC GUIDELINES

1.Place the Fills Properly-

Play the fill before the chorus, between two choruses, after the chorus, and sometimes, between 2 stanzas. Don't overplay between stanzas para hindi harsh pakinggan. Use either short or long fill before chorus, use short and simple fills after choruses and between stanzas; use power fills/licks between two choruses for dramatic effect.


2.Use Proper Fills-

Simple lang, rock fills for rock music; mellow fills for mellow music; etc... ibagay lang yung fill sa type ng music.


3.Use Variety of Fills-

Mas exciting sigurong pakinggan ang song pag iba iba ang fill kesa ung iisang fill lang ang ginagamit sa lahat ng song...para hindi boring pakinggan. You may right down all your fills sa music book para maipon at "magkapondo".


4.Make it Expressive-

Drum fills can actually express emotions..  They can make the song sound dramatic and powerful; and bring the music down to "normal" level. Try putting a character to your fill, as well as to the song. It can be "mabangis", "mabagsik", "malupit", "killer fill", "unpredictable", etc..etc.. bahala ka na sa term.. The character/expression of the fill depends on how you create its sound.


5. Be Creative-

Experiment. Try manipulating the notes or the pattern, reverse the sticking (right left right),create your own combos and licks..and apply some concepts of composing fills.


6.Avoid Guessing-

Mas safe siguro kung sure ka sa gagawin mong fill during gigs para iwas mistake.


7.Never Overplay-

A song doesn't always require licks, and power fills. Remember your dynamics. Pwedeng panay simpleng fills lang in some cases. Avoid playing fills every after 2 measures para malinis pakinggan. And one thing more, the drummer is not only the musician in a band. Give way to other musicians to show off their stuffs.



I hope the guidelines could help.

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: Bammbamm on August 23, 2007, 05:21:26 PM

^^Nice input there, haroniel. Thanks.  :-)

Pinaka paborito kong fill yung 3/4 feel over 4/4 time. Bale 16ths with triplet feel sya, saka paradiddle...


...dahil yun lang alam ko eh!  :lol:

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: kibohead on August 30, 2007, 06:39:26 PM

ok yun bamm...especially the one played by donati on his elims and the weckl's drum solo where he used the 3/4 pattern...  :-)

Title: Re: "Tasty Fillings"
Post by: haroniel on September 05, 2007, 04:10:42 PM

Yung 3/4 feel the same ba yun sa triplet feel?