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The Musician Forums => Guitar Central => Topic started by: firemodel55 on May 13, 2017, 05:37:20 AM
Title: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: firemodel55 on May 13, 2017, 05:37:20 AM
I bought my first multi effects unit (which was a rack Digitech DSP Plus) back in 1989. It was the 'IN' thing then but I only used it once and sold it. It made my guitar sound one dimensional and closer to a keyboard. Back then, I thought that digital technology would still mature and produce better sounding effects today. But somehow the development of digital for application as Guitar FX specially in floor unit configuration did not progress as much as I hoped.
So, here goes my rant against floor Guitar digital multi fx units:
1) A great majority are made in Asia which means cost reduction was the main priority. Unlike the old rack units made in USA and Europe, sound and durability was the priority. 2) Despite the marketing hype of more bits and higher sampling frequency, they still make a tube amp sound like a home stereo unit. On the other hand, and surprisingly, analog effect boxes are sounding better every year. Moreover, I have not heard any digital multi fx that can copy the sound of vintage effects from the 60s and 70s. 3) Distortion and overdrive still sound sucky compared to the best designed and manufactured analog distortion and overdrive. 4) Despite the so called flexibility in programming and one unit convenience, no digital multi fx effects unit invented as of today can claim to have ALL its effects as the best sounding. Basically that means, along with the digital multi fx effects unit, you have to bring other effects along to supplement its weaknesses and most of the time they are analog. 5) Like your cellphone, they are easily made obsolete. 6) They do not have a high resale value. 7) They are hard to fix specially after a few years because their chips go out of production. 8. There is a loss of transparency and feel in your guitar. 9) Guys who use the same floor multi fx pedals sound the same. 10) They sound bad compared to the best analog chain made up of boutique analog effects.
P.S. I have a bunch of digital stomp boxes too -- the original Whammy, Boss DD2 and Boss DD3 and they sound great. Used sparingly, they do not make your guitar sound like a stereo unit.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: treblinkalovescene on May 17, 2017, 03:29:34 PM
I guess you're expecting this response, Alex.
How do you feel about the newer generation of DSP-powered effects? I'm talking stuff along the line of Atomic, Kemper, Fractal, and higher-end Line 6 (Helix etc).
I'm sure there's a huge gap between your Digitech unit in '89 and a current generation unit like the AxeFx.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: nicoyow on May 17, 2017, 09:12:07 PM
^ ha! damn right! The technology already leaped way way too far from the said date by the TS. :mrgreen:
I used to have digital MFX (zoom GFX-8, Zoom G1) for almost 6 years. Then decided to switch to stomp boxes after a couple of months. The reason is, MFX updates are like cellphones. Every year, there's a new release or new model etc etc. Stomp boxes never goes out of trend, still sound better if you're into analog.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: marcus_gloom on May 31, 2017, 11:26:22 AM
very valid points sir especially on numbers 5,6 and 7
...but i kinda NEED MFX coz mabigat ang analog pedal board ko (bad back). For me, cheap and light MFX for quick jams/showband gigs.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: skrumian on May 31, 2017, 02:59:24 PM
5) Like your cellphone, they are easily made obsolete. 6) They do not have a high resale value. 7) They are hard to fix specially after a few years because their chips go out of production.
ito talaga ang 3 rason baket naaalangan ako bumili ng hi-end multifx.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: firemodel55 on May 31, 2017, 03:15:06 PM
How do you feel about the newer generation of DSP-powered effects? I'm talking stuff along the line of Atomic, Kemper, Fractal, and higher-end Line 6 (Helix etc).
I'm sure there's a huge gap between your Digitech unit in '89 and a current generation unit like the AxeFx.
Actually, just count the number of AxeFx guys who are NOW back with their analog tube amps. Bwah hah hah.
Well, the AxeFx was impressive, so is the Roland stuff for 10 minutes, then you start to realize its missing the oompf of a great sounding tube amp. Para siyang kinulong na tube amp sa isang maliit na kuwarto. Also, they are not sensitive to backing off the volume pot. Para pa rin on/off. Finally, the sound does not surround/engulf a room like a great sounding guitar tube amp.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Stoop on June 07, 2017, 11:23:55 PM
I kinda understand that tube amps always has the upper hand against modelers considering that tube amps are pretty much what digital modelers are trying to emulate. But people that says the actual feel of a tube amp is lost on a modeler kinda missed the simple point that the reason why that amp in the room feel is almost non-existent is that digital modelers more or less are copying an amp that is MIC'D UP.
In fm55's own words, "para siyang kinulong na tube amp sa isang maliit na kwarto" which is, uh, I don't know, kinda the idea with mic'ing up an amp speaker which IS the actual way amp modelers try to emulate real amps.
Not saying that his point is not valid (it is, specially if you're the type of person who really, really, really lusts after the "amp in the room feel"), but its kinda weird to discredit modelers for being inferior to the real thing when they have in fact a purpose (albeit limited and specific) in the greater scheme of guitar-y things.
Now try comparing recorded guitar tones both on their own and specially within a mix and you can actually see the economy of having something that can be recorded in the safety of your own bedroom without the need to blast the amp to ear splitting levels just to get to that "sweet spot".
I remember fondly using a POD HD500 (yeah go ahead, strike me dead) when I had one as a way to record some materials for our band and I find that it serves the purpose (in this case recording guitar parts) well enough.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: worshiper16 on June 08, 2017, 12:38:10 PM
sir tanong lang. for sure naranasan nyo din po mag gig. gano kadaming stomps ung nasa case nyo?
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: nicoyow on June 08, 2017, 08:52:39 PM
before, I have 9. now 7 :lol:
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: dullFingers on June 08, 2017, 10:01:33 PM
Actually, just count the number of AxeFx guys who are NOW back with their analog tube amps. Bwah hah hah.
Well, the AxeFx was impressive, so is the Roland stuff for 10 minutes, then you start to realize its missing the oompf of a great sounding tube amp. Para siyang kinulong na tube amp sa isang maliit na kuwarto. Also, they are not sensitive to backing off the volume pot. Para pa rin on/off. Finally, the sound does not surround/engulf a room like a great sounding guitar tube amp.
I get that. I'm not a huge fan of that setup, but if I remember right some Fractal players do bring their own FRFR cabinets. Others, at least that I remember tend to run them through power amps and into guitar speakers, but without the speaker emulation. As far as recorded tone goes, I think it could be fairly convincing but I'm still trying to think of scenarios manufacturers could target to bring that experience closer to a real amp. People are smart, and there are only so many things you could do to a signal. It's an interesting problem to solve.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: skrumian on June 09, 2017, 05:51:51 AM
IMHO, ang target market talaga ng high end multieffects are gigging, touring and recording professionals dahil sa convenient, quick and light setup.
kung hobbyist lang, better with with a tube amp and analog set up. mas may satisfaction in terms of tone. just my two cents.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: firemodel55 on June 09, 2017, 06:07:17 AM
I kinda understand that tube amps always has the upper hand against modelers considering that tube amps are pretty much what digital modelers are trying to emulate. But people that says the actual feel of a tube amp is lost on a modeler kinda missed the simple point that the reason why that amp in the room feel is almost non-existent is that digital modelers more or less are copying an amp that is MIC'D UP.
In fm55's own words, "para siyang kinulong na tube amp sa isang maliit na kwarto" which is, uh, I don't know, kinda the idea with mic'ing up an amp speaker which IS the actual way amp modelers try to emulate real amps.
Not saying that his point is not valid (it is, specially if you're the type of person who really, really, really lusts after the "amp in the room feel"), but its kinda weird to discredit modelers for being inferior to the real thing when they have in fact a purpose (albeit limited and specific) in the greater scheme of guitar-y things.
Now try comparing recorded guitar tones both on their own and specially within a mix and you can actually see the economy of having something that can be recorded in the safety of your own bedroom without the need to blast the amp to ear splitting levels just to get to that "sweet spot".
I remember fondly using a POD HD500 (yeah go ahead, strike me dead) when I had one as a way to record some materials for our band and I find that it serves the purpose (in this case recording guitar parts) well enough.
Unfortunately, you still get 2nd grade electronics no matter what they say. For the simple reason that a properly designed DAC is expensive. Recently, I was fortunate enough to spend on a separate Universal Transport and DAC for my hi-fi home system. I could not believe the level of digital playback today in the realm of hifi. Using material recorded at 96khz at 24 bits, not too mention 192khz at 24 bits recording directly pulled from the masters, the DAC made you feel that you were in the actual recording room -- not sounding like a microphone. I have to say on the correct speakers -- I was using wilson audio -- the digital file sounded like the real thing.
But here is the catch, the DAC alone cost P250k. If I was to put it in pedal form, it would surely cost at least P350k. Not to mention, that the DAC had to feed a hifi amplifier into a PA speaker on the level of wilson audio which is currently non existent. Which brings me to my point, nobody really needs microphone recorded amp sounds. What they need is recorded amp sounds that sound like real amps with no microphone affecting the sound in between.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Stoop on June 09, 2017, 11:14:41 PM
Which brings me to my point, nobody really needs microphone recorded amp sounds. What they need is recorded amp sounds that sound like real amps with no microphone affecting the sound in between.
I understand the need for expensive DACs for hi-fi playback systems to get every nuance out and for that total immersive listening experience but again, for all intents and purposes, those guitar tones that you get to listen at on your favorite recordings are recorded by putting a mic in front of a cabinet. No other way around it, whether it be by digital or analog, the signal comes from the clinical sound that you get when you put a mic in front of a cabinet. I believe that what you had in mind is for the very discerning listeners and audiophiles that needs to get all the subtleties of recordings. But you also have to consider that almost everyone now that listens to those songs, regardless of the high sampling bit-rates tend to listen to, uh, not that really good playback systems (i.e. mp3 players, smartphones, etc.).
I guess this is my long winded way of saying that when you consider the majority of casual listeners you mostly just need a sound that could translate well enough to a large portion of possible playback systems regardless of price point.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: knet370 on June 10, 2017, 09:18:15 AM
I understand the need for expensive DACs for hi-fi playback systems to get every nuance out and for that total immersive listening experience but again, for all intents and purposes, those guitar tones that you get to listen at on your favorite recordings are recorded by putting a mic in front of a cabinet. No other way around it, whether it be by digital or analog, the signal comes from the clinical sound that you get when you put a mic in front of a cabinet. I believe that what you had in mind is for the very discerning listeners and audiophiles that needs to get all the subtleties of recordings. But you also have to consider that almost everyone now that listens to those songs, regardless of the high sampling bit-rates tend to listen to, uh, not that really good playback systems (i.e. mp3 players, smartphones, etc.).
I guess this is my long winded way of saying that when you consider the majority of casual listeners you mostly just need a sound that could translate well enough to a large portion of possible playback systems regardless of price point.
I was thinking the same thing. :) typical setup of your most favorite artist/recording was mic'ing the cab. Post processing is where most of the magic of fine tweaking is happening. Unless you use a digital preamp such as the axe fx which you can run direct to record or use a cab simulator such as thr torpedo. Buy for the sake of amps, typically you plug a cab and mic the cab.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: firemodel55 on June 11, 2017, 07:38:45 AM
I understand the need for expensive DACs for hi-fi playback systems to get every nuance out and for that total immersive listening experience but again, for all intents and purposes, those guitar tones that you get to listen at on your favorite recordings are recorded by putting a mic in front of a cabinet. No other way around it, whether it be by digital or analog, the signal comes from the clinical sound that you get when you put a mic in front of a cabinet. I believe that what you had in mind is for the very discerning listeners and audiophiles that needs to get all the subtleties of recordings. But you also have to consider that almost everyone now that listens to those songs, regardless of the high sampling bit-rates tend to listen to, uh, not that really good playback systems (i.e. mp3 players, smartphones, etc.).
I guess this is my long winded way of saying that when you consider the majority of casual listeners you mostly just need a sound that could translate well enough to a large portion of possible playback systems regardless of price point.
And conversely, then, why don't you play guitar thru a 'not that really good playback system" regardless of price point? Assuming that mics are really the constraint, by the way -- listening to hi-res files on a hifi system does not point out to the mic as the constraint -- , and it becomes the standard of listening for almost all, we still don't play live thru a microphone majority of the time. Most guitarists leave it at the speaker cabinet level and just allow the tech to mic the sound. To even highlight the point further, I don't see or hear guitarists lug around an ISO cabinet with built in microphone to gigs despite the product's existence.
Hence, I don't see the need to go after the MICed sound when you can get better sound and feel through the amp and speaker cabinets.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: juwanfidle09 on June 23, 2017, 10:59:50 AM
And conversely, then, why don't you play guitar thru a 'not that really good playback system" regardless of price point? Assuming that mics are really the constraint, by the way -- listening to hi-res files on a hifi system does not point out to the mic as the constraint -- , and it becomes the standard of listening for almost all, we still don't play live thru a microphone majority of the time. Most guitarists leave it at the speaker cabinet level and just allow the tech to mic the sound. To even highlight the point further, I don't see or hear guitarists lug around an ISO cabinet with built in microphone to gigs despite the product's existence.
Hence, I don't see the need to go after the MICed sound when you can get better sound and feel through the amp and speaker cabinets.
Dahil dito :lol: (https://scontent.fmnl4-4.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13879438_1098176556940790_1496582418836525233_n.jpg?oh=d1d7225e17cf3c90ca3bee8976a88b32&oe=59C8900E)
Kung marunong naman yung tech, ibang scenario naman yun. :-D
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Ralph_Petrucci on June 23, 2017, 03:43:13 PM
Dahil dito :lol: (https://scontent.fmnl4-4.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13879438_1098176556940790_1496582418836525233_n.jpg?oh=d1d7225e17cf3c90ca3bee8976a88b32&oe=59C8900E)
Kung marunong naman yung tech, ibang scenario naman yun. :-D
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA "kuya palakasan naman" "nagfefeedback na pogi" HAHAHAHAHA
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: titser_marco on June 23, 2017, 09:12:28 PM
Alex's point stands esp when you're talking about club gigs. A 50w can easily fill Guijo or Route 196 with the unadulterated (by a mic anyway) amp tone. With larger and especially open air gigs though, miking amps is an absolute necessity
Sent from my SM-N910C using Tapatalk
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Stoop on June 24, 2017, 01:34:04 AM
And conversely, then, why don't you play guitar thru a 'not that really good playback system" regardless of price point?
If a "not that good playback system" is what you have then why not? Its what you have that you actually have to work with anyways. The ideal is to have everything top of the line but that cannot always be the case, hence the multi-purpose tool that we come to know as modelers. I am not sure if I understand this or if I did manage to get my point across. You were talking about playing the amp while I was trying to say "listening to the amp" because you I know you have to spend some dough to at least thin the herd of good amps/guitars/audio equip and such but there will always be an actual limit to the gratification fever equivalent to the money you can and/or willing to spend.
We still don't play live thru a microphone majority of the time. Most guitarists leave it at the speaker cabinet level and just allow the tech to mic the sound.
There you got me, but from what I understand, the more "advanced" modelers out there now are supposed to cater to a large number of users that either
a. gig professionally, b. into home recording, and/or c. straight up bedroom guitarist
And if I understand it correctly, those can still be handled by them modelers BUT only up to a certain extent like:
a. For pro gigs, the actual removal of being at the mercy of the sound guy is a heaven sent. Direct to PA is one of the features available to them modelers b. The ability to record silently with everything having pretty much in-the-box is also great. The lesser ADA conversion, probably the better (because of lesser digital artifacts being acummulated) and acting as a standalone recording interface/preamp is something modelers can do also c. Volume is always a problem for tube amps, specifically for amps that needs Power Amp saturation to get to its sweet spot, there modelers can be the salve because of the global volume control
To even highlight the point further, I don't see or hear guitarists lug around an ISO cabinet with built in microphone to gigs despite the product's existence.
And STILL for larger venues those speaker cabinets gets to be, lo and behold, MIC'ed up and fed to the PA. Also ISO cabinet tends to have more use in recording than actual gigging.
Hence, I don't see the need to go after the MICed sound when you can get better sound and feel through the amp and speaker cabinets.
Yes YOU don't see the need, but the purpose of "advanced" modelers is basically to give you tones BOTH for live (amp in room) AND recording. You can do the amp in the room with modelers simply by using an actual Power Amp (remember these digital thingies are marketed as guitar "preamps") just turn off the power amp/speaker emulation and then hook it up to an actual guitar speaker cab. If you want the whole shebang where preamp-power amp-speaker config are all in the modeler, use an FRFR for best results. Again this is from the perspective of what these digital thingies are marketed out to be.
Its just rather a matter of are you willing to have one solid tool that does a great job for a single thing or a swiss army knife that could handle most jobs for a "decent" price? I almost forgot that this thread is about why you don't like digital multi-fx but since I thought you wanted a discussion, I thought I could have my .02 thrown in.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: juwanfidle09 on June 24, 2017, 03:00:08 AM
If a "not that good playback system" is what you have then why not? Its what you have that you actually have to work with anyways. The ideal is to have everything top of the line but that cannot always be the case, hence the multi-purpose tool that we come to know as modelers. I am not sure if I understand this or if I did manage to get my point across. You were talking about playing the amp while I was trying to say "listening to the amp" because you I know you have to spend some dough to at least thin the herd of good amps/guitars/audio equip and such but there will always be an actual limit to the gratification fever equivalent to the money you can and/or willing to spend. There you got me, but from what I understand, the more "advanced" modelers out there now are supposed to cater to a large number of users that either
a. gig professionally, b. into home recording, and/or c. straight up bedroom guitarist
And if I understand it correctly, those can still be handled by them modelers BUT only up to a certain extent like:
a. For pro gigs, the actual removal of being at the mercy of the sound guy is a heaven sent. Direct to PA is one of the features available to them modelers b. The ability to record silently with everything having pretty much in-the-box is also great. The lesser ADA conversion, probably the better (because of lesser digital artifacts being acummulated) and acting as a standalone recording interface/preamp is something modelers can do also c. Volume is always a problem for tube amps, specifically for amps that needs Power Amp saturation to get to its sweet spot, there modelers can be the salve because of the global volume control And STILL for larger venues those speaker cabinets gets to be, lo and behold, MIC'ed up and fed to the PA. Also ISO cabinet tends to have more use in recording than actual gigging. Yes YOU don't see the need, but the purpose of "advanced" modelers is basically to give you tones BOTH for live (amp in room) AND recording. You can do the amp in the room with modelers simply by using an actual Power Amp (remember these digital thingies are marketed as guitar "preamps") just turn off the power amp/speaker emulation and then hook it up to an actual guitar speaker cab. If you want the whole shebang where preamp-power amp-speaker config are all in the modeler, use an FRFR for best results. Again this is from the perspective of what these digital thingies are marketed out to be.
Its just rather a matter of are you willing to have one solid tool that does a great job for a single thing or a swiss army knife that could handle most jobs for a "decent" price? I almost forgot that this thread is about why you don't like digital multi-fx but since I thought you wanted a discussion, I thought I could have my .02 thrown in.
I remember watching Crossfire last Pulp Summerslam. Their tones just slay and according to a source, Axe FX II gamit na direct sa board.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: firemodel55 on June 24, 2017, 09:24:38 AM
I remember watching Crossfire last Pulp Summerslam. Their tones just slay and according to a source, Axe FX II gamit na direct sa board.
Of course, I have to ask, anong experience and exposure ng source? Are we saying that axe fx 2 thru I don't know what kind of made in china mixing board with probably low quality power amps and maybe bad quality PA speakers sound better than guitar tube amps and celestion loaded pine or birch cabinets?
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: firemodel55 on June 24, 2017, 10:12:46 AM
If a "not that good playback system" is what you have then why not? Its what you have that you actually have to work with anyways. (That was the case before and now. Remember, the blues were built on 50s tweed amps. My point that its hard to believe that any digital stuff is better than a 50s Fender Tweed amp in reproducing good sounding rich guitar tones.) The ideal is to have everything top of the line but that cannot always be the case, hence the multi-purpose tool that we come to know as modelers. (I agree that the ideal cannot always be but the 70s and 80s went by without modelers. And they still sounded better without modelers. And they produced great guitar tones.) I am not sure if I understand this or if I did manage to get my point across. (Name a great guitar tone today produced by a modeler?) You were talking about playing the amp while I was trying to say "listening to the amp" because you I know you have to spend some dough to at least thin the herd of good amps/guitars/audio equip and such but there will always be an actual limit to the gratification fever equivalent to the money you can and/or willing to spend. (Axe Fx with the accompanying PA system is also a lot of dough.) There you got me, but from what I understand, the more "advanced" modelers out there now are supposed to cater to a large number of users that either
a. gig professionally, (you are at the mercy of PA which in the philippines is full of crap and bad sounding) b. into home recording, and/or (Agree if you are on a budget.) c. straight up bedroom guitarist (volumes are too low to produce rich sounding guitar)
And if I understand it correctly, those can still be handled by them modelers BUT only up to a certain extent like:
a. For pro gigs, the actual removal of being at the mercy of the sound guy is a heaven sent. Direct to PA is one of the features available to them modelers (Yeah but PA in the Philippines suck. Even then, are you plugging to a Neve Console anywhere else?) b. The ability to record silently with everything having pretty much in-the-box is also great. The lesser ADA conversion, probably the better (because of lesser digital artifacts being acummulated) and acting as a standalone recording interface/preamp is something modelers can do also (So get an ISO box with guitar speaker and microphone. You are less one digital step.) c. Volume is always a problem for tube amps, specifically for amps that needs Power Amp saturation to get to its sweet spot, there modelers can be the salve because of the global volume control (Yeah but you are assuming that modelers know what a sweet spot is. I don't they can capture the sweet spot.) And STILL for larger venues those speaker cabinets gets to be, lo and behold, MIC'ed up and fed to the PA. (So are we know saying that the modelers speaker emulation is better than the actual cabinet? I will clearly debate you on that because if anything I learnt the pass twenty years, speaker cabinets are more important than Guitar Amp Heads!) Also ISO cabinet tends to have more use in recording than actual gigging. (So if its all about that, why don't we switch to keyboard? I mean why play guitar when it can be emulated by the latest and greatest synthesizer without gigging problems in any venue and without recording problems?) Yes YOU don't see the need, but the purpose of "advanced" modelers is basically to give you tones BOTH for live (amp in room) AND recording. (Which it neither does on a superior basis) You can do the amp in the room with modelers simply by using an actual Power Amp (remember these digital thingies are marketed as guitar "preamps") just turn off the power amp/speaker emulation and then hook it up to an actual guitar speaker cab. (Digital preamp plus Analog Power amp? That's a whole new can of worms in terms of matching.) If you want the whole shebang where preamp-power amp-speaker config are all in the modeler, use an FRFR for best results. Again this is from the perspective of what these digital thingies are marketed out to be.
Its just rather a matter of are you willing to have one solid tool that does a great job for a single thing or a swiss army knife that could handle most jobs for a "decent" price? (I get that point but are you willing to spend US$10k for a digital modeler? That's my point and that's what I am asking for -- produce a worthy digital modeler beating HiFi DACs. Its budget driving your choice between digital and analog and not sound.) I almost forgot that this thread is about why you don't like digital multi-fx but since I thought you wanted a discussion, I thought I could have my .02 thrown in. (Just my two cents worth, too.)
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: juwanfidle09 on June 25, 2017, 12:45:31 AM
Of course, I have to ask, anong experience and exposure ng source? Are we saying that axe fx 2 thru I don't know what kind of made in china mixing board with probably low quality power amps and maybe bad quality PA speakers sound better than guitar tube amps and celestion loaded pine or birch cabinets?
experienced in the local band scene, sound tech and sessionist din hehe
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: firemodel55 on June 25, 2017, 12:45:06 PM
experienced in the local band scene, sound tech and sessionist din hehe
Just to clarify, and no harm or insult meant, I wanted to find out what equipment the source is/was exposed to rather than his musical experience or skill.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: queer_rocker on June 25, 2017, 03:50:56 PM
Just to clarify, and no harm or insult meant, I wanted to find out what equipment the source is/was exposed to rather than his musical experience or skill.
aray
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Bolt Thrower on June 25, 2017, 05:35:18 PM
The solution to this is easy.
Axe Fx (or AX8, Atomic, Kemper) to a high headroom power amp, out 1 to a nice conventional guitar cabinet, then out 2 straight to mixer with your cab sim signal. You get the best of both worlds. Cranked and chest thumping onstage/amp in a room volume then an optimal sounding sound in the mixer. If you don't trust the PA, you still can mic the cab, no problem.
Of course that doesn't and won't replace tube amps. Emulators emulate tube amps for the exact same reason they can't entirely replace them but to get artists the convenience to get close to that sound without breaking their back and banks from carrying all that weight. They also save on stage prep time, upkeep, and tech expenses. And you know how a tube amp can be a b1tch. It won't sound the same some nights.
Emulators are there for convenience. But they won't replace the old tech.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: juwanfidle09 on June 26, 2017, 04:56:42 AM
Just to clarify, and no harm or insult meant, I wanted to find out what equipment the source is/was exposed to rather than his musical experience or skill.
It's cool, medyo natawa lang ako na pagkatapos ko pa talaga sumagot tsaka ka pa nagclarify :lol:
Yung sa detailed list ng equipment, pagtanong niyo nalang, di ko na inalam e hehe :-D
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: firemodel55 on June 26, 2017, 02:50:11 PM
That's my point and that's what I am asking for -- produce a worthy digital modeler beating HiFi DACs. Its budget driving your choice between digital and analog and not sound.
But what if I indeed enjoyed the sound of digital? Yeah it's an HD500 but still. . . anyways, hahaha! Doesn't that also helps in driving the choices I've made? I'm seriously considering buying a Line 6 Helix once I got enough moolah for it because I really like its feature set. The sounds as always will be debate-able but for the things I want it to do, it definitely does a great job (particularly standalone rec. interface and amp simulation) because at least for me, once those guitar tracks get into an actual full band mix, I could not care less if they came from tubes or modelers as long as they serve the song.
Again, not saying that tube amps could "ever" be replaced by modelers but for what we can have now? I think modelers are in a very good spot compared to their previous iterations. Also for recorded / live digital tones, I "liked"
Monuments - Amanuensis Tesseract - One and Altered State Intervals Plini Sithu Aye
You could definitely see the pattern there and yes they are in no waaaaay the big shot guys but them records sounds absolute ear candy, so yeah.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Bolt Thrower on June 30, 2017, 01:11:30 AM
Yeah. That's true. Modelers have really gone far from the Red Bean of old. Ang layo na ng tunog. There is this space, sag, and warmth that previously wasn't available. Lalo na mga Atomic, Fractal at Kemper. Have you seen Guthrie rock thru his AxeFx rig. Daaaaamn.
Even the cheapo ones like the Boss Katana, have more than usable tones.
The big contention is that people can't get that amp in a room feel with modelers and their SS power amps and traditional cabs. They fail to realize that if you use a tube power amp, the current interacts with the speaker and produces that resonance. The SS Poweramp wont do that. You have to get in the resonance and low frequency speaker page of your modelers to get that response. You have to exactly input the lo and resonance frequency of your speakers to get that cabinet to thump the same as when you are using a tube amp.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Ralph_Petrucci on June 30, 2017, 12:26:31 PM
Yeah. That's true. Modelers have really gone far from the Red Bean of old. Ang layo na ng tunog. There is this space, sag, and warmth that previously wasn't available. Lalo na mga Atomic, Fractal at Kemper. Have you seen Guthrie rock thru his AxeFx rig. Daaaaamn.
Even the cheapo ones like the Boss Katana, have more than usable tones.
The big contention is that people can't get that amp in a room feel with modelers and their SS power amps and traditional cabs. They fail to realize that if you use a tube power amp, the current interacts with the speaker and produces that resonance. The SS Poweramp wont do that. You have to get in the resonance and low frequency speaker page of your modelers to get that response. You have to exactly input the lo and resonance frequency of your speakers to get that cabinet to thump the same as when you are using a tube amp.
Ali, sobrang solid ba nung katana? I've been seeing your posts eh.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: titser_marco on June 30, 2017, 10:45:21 PM
Yeah. That's true. Modelers have really gone far from the Red Bean of old. Ang layo na ng tunog. There is this space, sag, and warmth that previously wasn't available. Lalo na mga Atomic, Fractal at Kemper. Have you seen Guthrie rock thru his AxeFx rig. Daaaaamn.
Even the cheapo ones like the Boss Katana, have more than usable tones.
The big contention is that people can't get that amp in a room feel with modelers and their SS power amps and traditional cabs. They fail to realize that if you use a tube power amp, the current interacts with the speaker and produces that resonance. The SS Poweramp wont do that. You have to get in the resonance and low frequency speaker page of your modelers to get that response. You have to exactly input the lo and resonance frequency of your speakers to get that cabinet to thump the same as when you are using a tube amp.
Resonance is mostly a cab function not a power section interaction. What nonsense.
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Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Bolt Thrower on July 01, 2017, 02:46:38 AM
Ali, sobrang solid ba nung katana? I've been seeing your posts eh.
Nakakagulat lang kasi na maganda pala. Ang baba ng expectation ko. Balak ko lang talaga Yamaha THR o Spider V na head para may mini speakers pang low volume practice. Kaso for the value mas pinili ko Katana Head. Kung tutuusin, Gt1 yung cosm amp modeling nito. Except brown channel from Waza, pero yung power amp tuning niya convincing na nag iba totally yung feel ng amp models. Nakuha yung natural sounding sag at decay na di kaya ng Blackstar ID, Peavey Vypyr, or Line 6 Spiders. Yung power amp tuning niya malapit sa response ng Axe Fx. Of course, maganda siya din sa magandang cab at speakers. Di ko trip yung katana speakers, masyado flat.
Tinapat ko siya sa Soldano patch ko sa AX8 and power amp ko 5150II. kayang sumabay pero syempre mas maganda pa rin tunog nung tube sa high volume. Pero not bad, volume at response niya parang 50w EVH 5150III. Ang lakas at hindi bitin sa headroom. Wala yung SS treble spike.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Bolt Thrower on July 01, 2017, 02:53:25 AM
Resonance is mostly a cab function not a power section interaction. What nonsense.
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Lol nonsense agad? Have you used an axe fx? Atomic Amplifire? Helix? Kemper? And plugged to an ss amp and a tube amp one after the other? Notice a difference? I meant here is the resonance your speaker produces in hertz all by itself. My speakers have a resonance reading of 111hz. If I plug in to a tube poweramp, the power amp takes care of reaching and exciting that resonance. If I use an SS amp, it wont be the same. I need to rely on the tube power amp modeling on an axefx to get me that 111hz resonant frequency so that my cab would thump like i am using a tube power amp.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: titser_marco on July 01, 2017, 02:28:55 PM
Lol nonsense agad? Have you used an axe fx? Atomic Amplifire? Helix? Kemper? And plugged to an ss amp and a tube amp one after the other? Notice a difference? I meant here is the resonance your speaker produces in hertz all by itself. My speakers have a resonance reading of 111hz. If I plug in to a tube poweramp, the power amp takes care of reaching and exciting that resonance. If I use an SS amp, it wont be the same. I need to rely on the tube power amp modeling on an axefx to get me that 111hz resonant frequency so that my cab would thump like i am using a tube power amp.
Have you even built and repaired amps? Do you even know how they work?
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Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Bolt Thrower on July 02, 2017, 12:21:31 AM
Have you even built and repaired amps? Do you even know how they work?
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Then if you have built and repaired amps, you should already know this. Otherwise , Google is your friend. Or like I said, try a modeler with a tube power amp and a solid state power amp side by side. Nothing wrong with learning something new.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: titser_marco on July 02, 2017, 08:40:40 AM
Then if you have built and repaired amps, you should already know this. Otherwise , Google is your friend. Or like I said, try a modeler with a tube power amp and a solid state power amp side by side. Nothing wrong with learning something new.
Cant even answer the question straight. You know nothing then. Unless you've worked on an amp and understood how it works as a system, you don't know what you're talking about re resonance and power amp interaction. Try getting your feet wet in tube electronics and see where you end up with your thinking re resonance. As you said, nothing wrong with learning something new.
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Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Skybox on July 02, 2017, 10:06:22 AM
Relax lang guys nood muna ng Youtube.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Bolt Thrower on July 02, 2017, 11:42:56 AM
Cant even answer the question straight. You know nothing then. Unless you've worked on an amp and understood how it works as a system, you don't know what you're talking about re resonance and power amp interaction. Try getting your feet wet in tube electronics and see where you end up with your thinking re resonance. As you said, nothing wrong with learning something new.
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What kind of logic is that? Doesn't mean if you worked with amps you know everything about them. Para kang mga Marcos loyalist na nabuhay lang ng panahon na yun, akala nila alam na lahat hahahaha! Ang dami dami naman facts na hindi pa alam na nasalibro naman at Google. Conversely, gumawa ka na ba ng Solid State power amp at nag CODE ng modeling unit? Mas magaling ka pa yata kay Cliff Chase e.
There's no point in debating you and your "tube amp knowledge". Everyone who have extensively used modeling units with both kinds of power amps know how the power amp influences speaker resonance, inductance etc. Even the Kemper units copy this power amp-speaker interaction.
And no. Your HD500 doesn't have that.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Bolt Thrower on July 02, 2017, 11:44:24 AM
What kind of logic is that? Doesn't mean if you worked with amps you know everything about them. Para kang mga Marcos loyalist na nabuhay lang ng panahon na yun, akala nila alam na lahat hahahaha! Ang dami dami naman facts na hindi pa alam na nasalibro naman at Google. Conversely, gumawa ka na ba ng Solid State power amp at nag CODE ng modeling unit? Mas magaling ka pa yata kay Cliff Chase e.
There's no point in debating you and your "tube amp knowledge". Everyone who have extensively used modeling units with both kinds of power amps know how the power amp influences speaker resonance, inductance etc. Even the Kemper units copy this power amp-speaker interaction.
And no. Your HD500 doesn't have that.
Having worked on amps certainly makes one know more than someone who's been an end-user of digital simulacra and not even the real thing. I've worked on amps, done measurements, and know how these things work as a system. Have you done anything close to that? All you have is hand-me-down knowledge and zero experience. Nice try.
LOL your point about power amps influencing speaker cab inductance betrays your colossal ignorance. Also stop trying to be a petit-firemodel55 by brandishing your experience with modelers as if it's anything special. I'm done here.
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Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Bolt Thrower on July 03, 2017, 02:51:31 AM
Having worked on amps certainly makes one know more than someone who's been an end-user of digital simulacra and not even the real thing. I've worked on amps, done measurements, and know how these things work as a system. Have you done anything close to that? All you have is hand-me-down knowledge and zero experience. Nice try.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nagpalit ka lang mga resistor at nakakumpleto DIY build, tindig Dave Friedman ka na. lol Baka pag naka assemble ka guitar kit, luthier ka na.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Skybox on July 03, 2017, 02:22:31 PM
Nakakagulat lang kasi na maganda pala. Ang baba ng expectation ko. Balak ko lang talaga Yamaha THR o Spider V na head para may mini speakers pang low volume practice. Kaso for the value mas pinili ko Katana Head. Kung tutuusin, Gt1 yung cosm amp modeling nito. Except brown channel from Waza, pero yung power amp tuning niya convincing na nag iba totally yung feel ng amp models. Nakuha yung natural sounding sag at decay na di kaya ng Blackstar ID, Peavey Vypyr, or Line 6 Spiders. Yung power amp tuning niya malapit sa response ng Axe Fx. Of course, maganda siya din sa magandang cab at speakers. Di ko trip yung katana speakers, masyado flat.
Tinapat ko siya sa Soldano patch ko sa AX8 and power amp ko 5150II. kayang sumabay pero syempre mas maganda pa rin tunog nung tube sa high volume. Pero not bad, volume at response niya parang 50w EVH 5150III. Ang lakas at hindi bitin sa headroom. Wala yung SS treble spike.
What cab are you using with the Katana head bro? I'm interested coz it's a 100W head the size of a Blackstar HT5 and in a fraction of the weight and obviously built tougher. And almost the same price haha!
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: Bolt Thrower on July 03, 2017, 09:42:32 PM
What cab are you using with the Katana head bro? I'm interested coz it's a 100W head the size of a Blackstar HT5 and in a fraction of the weight and obviously built tougher. And almost the same price haha!
Genz Benz Gflex 212 with Eminence Legends. And a Peavey JSX 412 cab with V30. The thing loves mid spikey speakers. Same reason I replaced my 6505 mini head. It just offers more value but also sounds as good if not better. A/B'd it against Mesa JP2C. Sounds good with this Mesa 212. It sure can get loud against a 100w tube amp. But at full volume, that SS headroom problem is there.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: nicoyow on July 03, 2017, 09:47:34 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/NK8FCzA.gif)
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: ryechua on July 03, 2017, 11:27:49 PM
interesting read/topic. napa google tuloy ako and it seems there's some talk regarding SS vs Tube power amp and it's effect on resonance frequency - mostly with the hi-fi domain but also related to guitar amps. basa basa muna ako :mrgreen:
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: kelvinator on November 01, 2017, 09:05:29 PM
Kemper vs other amps
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: broduo on November 01, 2017, 10:11:04 PM
I bought my first multi effects unit (which was a rack Digitech DSP Plus) back in 1989. It was the 'IN' thing then but I only used it once and sold it. It made my guitar sound one dimensional and closer to a keyboard. Back then, I thought that digital technology would still mature and produce better sounding effects today. But somehow the development of digital for application as Guitar FX specially in floor unit configuration did not progress as much as I hoped.
So, here goes my rant against floor Guitar digital multi fx units:
1) A great majority are made in Asia which means cost reduction was the main priority. Unlike the old rack units made in USA and Europe, sound and durability was the priority. 2) Despite the marketing hype of more bits and higher sampling frequency, they still make a tube amp sound like a home stereo unit. On the other hand, and surprisingly, analog effect boxes are sounding better every year. Moreover, I have not heard any digital multi fx that can copy the sound of vintage effects from the 60s and 70s. 3) Distortion and overdrive still sound sucky compared to the best designed and manufactured analog distortion and overdrive. 4) Despite the so called flexibility in programming and one unit convenience, no digital multi fx effects unit invented as of today can claim to have ALL its effects as the best sounding. Basically that means, along with the digital multi fx effects unit, you have to bring other effects along to supplement its weaknesses and most of the time they are analog. 5) Like your cellphone, they are easily made obsolete. 6) They do not have a high resale value. 7) They are hard to fix specially after a few years because their chips go out of production. 8. There is a loss of transparency and feel in your guitar. 9) Guys who use the same floor multi fx pedals sound the same. 10) They sound bad compared to the best analog chain made up of boutique analog effects.
P.S. I have a bunch of digital stomp boxes too -- the original Whammy, Boss DD2 and Boss DD3 and they sound great. Used sparingly, they do not make your guitar sound like a stereo unit.
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: 24242009 on November 08, 2017, 02:53:59 PM
Boss GT10 and Boss GT100 are good multi effects in my opinion and sounds good too
Title: Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
Post by: firemodel55 on November 15, 2017, 07:26:37 PM
I spent some time with the Katana head (150 watts model) pushing a Katana 4x12 in Japan. AND.... No way is it near a good to great sounding tube amp.
Sorry. It does not breathe and sounds like everything else on a budget ... buzzy and tiny.