Your job as a sound engineer is propelled by CRITICISM

[skunkyfunk]

For the first time, I saw a locked thread here at MT&PA central.     I am still curious about what musician posted though, but I am assuming that he posted something out of sheer disappointment about the comments of most folks here.  And someone as patient as KitC deleting a post means something.  The apples and pineapples didn't work. 

OK, here's how I see our jobs as sound engineers...  our job is AND entails to be CRITICIZED.  If 10 people think my work as a mixing engineer sounds like moist ass, I listen to all of them.  Heck, if 8 of them are jealous, surely 1 or 2 really care about improving my work. 

Well if you REALLY want to be fireballed to improve your mixes, go post them at Harmony Central, Audio Masterclass and Prorec forums if you want to know where you stand as a mixing engineer.  For the record, people there really dis your work to death.  If you don't have a heart of steel you'd really feel crushed.  Deal with it.  People can tell you straightforward YOUR MIX SOUNDS LIKE [gooey brown stuff].   musician's resentment to valuable input is an example of his unpreparedness for THIS type of job.  I really pity you man, but this job is all about standing firm but being flexible at the same time.  It requires utmost patience and a deep understanding of music. 

So in case musician is reading, think about it, are  you in the right job?  Mag call-center ka na lang hehehe.

[xjepoyx]

nice one doj!

 

[stilljey]

amen ! 

[starfugger]

@skunk, we as engineers are passionate people.  i don't think someone who IS NOT an artist can ever excel in this endeavor.  it is quite understandable that we can get pretty affected by criticism, knowing that our work is the product of much of heart and soul, an aural manifestation of some of the things that make us who we are. admittedly, there are some criticisms that put me on the defensive.  the other day mr shinji tanaka graced me with a visit.  i noticed that i never mind mr shinji's criticism of my work.  why?  because i feel his SINCERITY.  there is an element of trust here.  i don't feel that he is out to get anyone and everyone who has ever twisted a mixer knob and try to prove himself superior.  GOODWILL.  it is important you establish that first if you want to be an effective critic.   AND MOST OF ALL, i think it helps to give credit where credit is due.  in my case, if i think one's work needs much improvement, i will still try to look for good points and praise the guy for it.  this does wonders.  pero kung naiinis na sayo ang mga tao dahil wala kang pakundangan kung mag criticize, can you really trust that 2 ouf 10 critics are telling the truth?  what if 10 out of 10 times they cannot find anything nice about one's work because they cannot find anything nice about that person?  this happens, trust me. 

we are not americans so let us not try to BE LIKE THEM, have hearts of steel and not mind when we are run down to the ground with harsh words.  whether one likes it or not, we were born and raised FILIPINOS.  i have not yet heard any local recording that can equal the quality of most foreign mixes, so maybe it would help if we tried lifting eachother up until we finally achieve that kind of excellence.  i am not trying to say don't criticize.  what i am saying is, let us establish goodwill among ourselves. 

last, most of the points raised in the  thread are valid (i didn't see the deleted post).  i think what went wrong there was that the posters were not expecting cricism but praise.  walang masyadong sincerity in the first place ang pag-hingi ng advice.  if you think there is a problem with your work, then by all means ask for help.  but if you disguise your vanity as an SOS, naturally you will fail to appreciate people's help because it is not what you wanted in the first place.  things get ugly when motives are skewed.

[chuck sabbath]

i think the problem was the guy who originally posted the music wasnt authorized to do so. then when the guy who mixed it came into the thread, he saw that everyone had sort of piled on the criticism

obviously he felt really proud of the way he did the mix but was threatened by the philmusic "posse" who were unanimous in the criticism of the mix...i think communications also got muddled for a while when some comments were made by some of the critics that could be construed as condescending

things just escalated when he posted for the first time and said he wasnt asking for criticism but it kept pouring in anyway

to the guy who felt "attacked": we all have our artistic vision and you should follow yours by all means, but mostly everyone who critiqued your work here are working professionals, not bedroom computer geeks like you so harshly made them out to be...so they do knwo what they are talking about

many more are musicians with long years of playing behind them, some many more than you in fact...so be careful about saying things like "nakasama ka na ba sa amin?" as if you have the monopoly on being a musician....you'd be surprised whos on here (not talking about me, i suck)

i hope that you come back and become a part of this community, this is actually the most level headed section of the philmusic forums, cause were mostly all growed up, and we can all learn from each other

for the record i liked what i heard of the song; the vocals could have used some clarity but not too bad, i liked the cheesy drums, reminded me of some black uhuru stuff i have, i totally get where youre coming from with the mix

[skunkyfunk]

Goodwill is a prerequisite to right communication.  I would not communicate with someone who's fishing for praises, or who's an expert at retaliatory dissing.  Case in point:  FRANCIS REYES.  While I honestly don't trust his ears as an audiophile (mind you, he said he isn't one), I do trust his judgment on how music is pieced together.  Whenever he does some criticizing of some demos, I honestly think he does that to help out the band.  Of course, his taste can make a biased perspective at times, but overall, I don't see any reason why some people get pissed at him simply because he commented bad on their demo.  Heck, the mere fact that he played your demo means he shows you some respect.

[starfugger]

Goodwill is a prerequisite to right communication.  I would not communicate with someone who's fishing for praises, or who's an expert at retaliatory dissing. 

oh but we do that all the time here in philmusic dont we?  we communicate with people we dont know, ones who might or might not have goodwill in their hearts.  let's work toward the proper choice of words and POLITICAL correctness because like it or not, this IS a public forum, not our living room where we can put our feet up on the table and walk around naked whenever we want to. 

i've been reading the thread again and i see that mr tamguitar asked for comments twice:  first, for comments regarding the mix.  second, for comments regarding his bandmate's reply.  it went downhill from there because naturally people will defend their respective positions.  but as mr marvinq said, advice was NOT unsolicited.  yun nalang.

i am sincerely hoping for goodwill among us pro audio people.  i have made lots of good friends and acquaintances through this forum, and i hope everyone realizes that there are real talking and walking folks behind these posts who are more than willing to lend a helping hand and LITERALLY go the distance to help a brother (or in my case, a sister) out.

[KitC]

The word politics has always struck a wrong chord with me because the principle has been much abused and maligned by the people who purportedly practice it, our so-called nation's leaders (on ALL sides of the political fence). But let's remain apolitical for now and go to a much simpler and basic level. I would much rather think that just plain decency should be at the root of every personal and inter-personal relationship.

On the other side of the coin, however (and I just discovered this), there is something known as the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Food for thought.

[marvinq]

well, as artists (sound engineers, musicians, etc.), our work will ALWAYS be subject to criticism, whether or not they're solicited. it was posted at myspace, a VERY PUBLIC website. it will be criticized, no matter what. heck, it might even be downloaded (you think? would anybody be interested in reworking it? ) and some magic might be worked through it with acid, garage band, ableton live, or whatever else.

the post that was deleted was basically questioning the credibility of everybody who commented. now who in his/her right mind would question mr. pedero's comments? i know i wouldn't. he didn't mention sir mike's name, but obviously he thought so highly of himself and his song (not necessarily a bad thing) that he refused to "hear" our opinions.

Kitc, allow me to quote from the deleted post.

"...I'm beginning to doubt... maybe SOME people here are just POSERS and LIMITED to a certain genre... maybe computer addicts and not TRUE musicians, para lang may masabi... Nakasama na ba namin kayo sa Music Scene o andyan lang kayo sa bahay nyo at tinatago ang "KNOWLEDGE(?)" nyo sa music? GO OUT AND PERFORM WITH US!!! para maranasan nyo kung paano "dagain" sa stage at matikman ang REAL ESSENCE OF MUSIC AND RECORDING, hindi puro theory..."

"...--YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO POINT A FINGER UNLESS YOU'RE WORTHY ENOUGH..."



(*) obviouly, mr. musician isn't limited to a certain genre (that HIS opinion of course), and is practically inviting everybody to jam with their band.

(**) also, apparently, he doesn't think anybody of us is WORTHY ENOUGH. well, mr. musician, that's your opinion... it's  very different from mine, but i won't crucify you for it.

(***) oh, i almost forgot, NOBODY was doing any finger-pointing.

[marvinq]

Dunning-Kruger effect.

WAAAAAHAHAHAhahaha.....

[IncX]

that thread where the first MTPA flame war broke was actually a nice thread, i thought the ppl who commented were supportive enough. comments on the mix, the panning, etc. they are objective comments and not subjective. i do not know why the guy was pissed at all... and said something jamming with them... errr, engineers and producers dont necessarily jam, they produce and engineer, a lot of them play live but then again, thats the side of them being musicians. in general, i think the musician side of one will tend to conflict with the engineer side. sometimes something good comes out of the conflict, a lot of times it comes out bad.

its interesting that skunky brought out the subject of francis reyes. i remember sending him a demo before and he criticized it. i have to admit i was hurt and pissed. not because of the negative comments... its just, i think he gave the WRONG negative comments. he said something about me ripping off NiN because of some parts, but the reason why i did those OBVIOUS NiN rip-offs was because it was a tribute to reznor. i mean, i copied the part and the way reznor said it (it was the last part of Happiness in Slavery) ... maybe the 'humor' was too deep for ppl who arent fans of NiN, so right now, i understand why he accussed me of being a rip-off, its because he doesnt know me, and thats not his fault. im not famous after all. i also remember ppl saying that my demo was off time... but that was the funny thing. i recorded 4 bars of "off time" riffs and looped them thru out the whole song... the "off time" was actually part of the song and the ppl didn't notice.

oh well, im getting off topic now... im happy a thread like this exists, because the next time i let someone mix a song for me... i can always consult this small community here. good critical ears who really give you good opinions without asking for money - so i hope you guys wont start now *lol* just kiddin

[starfugger]

that thread where the first MTPA flame war broke was actually a nice thread, i thought the ppl who commented were supportive enough. comments on the mix, the panning, etc. they are objective comments and not subjective.

so true.  everyone was really being helpful.  and polite, mind you.  like chuck sabbath mentioned, a lot of people around here are PROFESSIONALS, masters even.  take mr mike pedero, marvinq, kedy sanchez, shinji tanaka, Kitc, and ... well almost everyone else around here record and mix for a living.  in this business, we usually get paid by the hour, so to have them spare a moment of their time to listen to one's music and post their advice is reason enough to be grateful. 

yeah, Kit, decency is in fact what might keep flame wars away from the pro audio threads.  dunning-krugger effect: i like hypothesis number 4 best there is hope yet 

[abyssinianson]

i had been busy for a while doing other things when i surfed over the thread and caught wind of the hooplah. i was wondering why musician was making a fuss because everyone else was doing what they usually do in here when presented with a project for critique: they were being helpful and offered useful constructive citicism. for guys and gals who mix and record for a living to give him help, the dude should've been more thankful he was getting a lot of good advice in one place for FREE!

oh well, i guess you can't please everyone. musician should've been more receptive to the fact that not everyone starts out as an expert and mixing is a long, long tideous process that requires constant learning. i may not mix of a living but I am always open to useful tidbits from experts, beginners - heck, even my mother (who has never been near a console) who happened to critique an acoustic ep i was doing for someone. She said,"Hijo, that sounds nice but his vocals are too...loud, I guess? (note: I had the vox slightly up front in the mix) It would be nice if it were less overwhelming because I can see myself ironing to this." Do I have to list my mom in the mixing and editing credits now? hehehehe

[BAMF]

The word politics has always struck a wrong chord with me because the principle has been much abused and maligned by the people who purportedly practice it, our so-called nation's leaders (on ALL sides of the political fence). But let's remain apolitical for now and go to a much simpler and basic level. I would much rather think that just plain decency should be at the root of every personal and inter-personal relationship.

On the other side of the coin, however (and I just discovered this), there is something known as the Dunning-Kruger effect.

Food for thought.

Like I said once before, politics is part of the human dynamic. Throw five people in a cage and in about two days you'll have a top dog and a bottom feeder. We can't escape it, but you're right, we can be decent about it

[BALDO]

YES incX imagine kung nag ask na sila ( masters ) ng prof fee..eh di wala na tayong pang GAS hehehe 

[KitC]

YES incX imagine kung nag ask na sila ( masters ) ng prof fee..eh di wala na tayong pang GAS hehehe 

HUWAAAT? Si Baldo? Mawawalan ng pang GAS? I don bilibit or not! 

[BALDO]

SKUNK your inbox is full

[skunkyfunk]

SKUNK your inbox is full

Fixed. 

Puwede pasend ulit?

[BALDO]

Skunky
pare ko.. the song is almost finished.. 3 trial runs and i am ALMOST HAPPY sa work ko  ..hindi nakakasawa yung song kahit na ulit ulitin.. ok yung singer and the song..ok na din yung pagkaka record mo..( ok lang?  hehehe ..oo na mahusay ka na nga..  basta maririnig mo na lang) i like the sound of that mic you used..ADK ba yun? pintas ko lang eh yung mic sa cymbals.. pasensiya ka na.. matagal ko ng hinahanap yung tunog ng Neumann  ( KM 84 ba yun o 183??? hmmm) sa hi hat at cymbals    ... hindi kasi mawala wala sa kukote ko yung narinig ko na yun eh..

[skunkyfunk]

Skunky
pare ko.. the song is almost finished.. 3 trial runs and i am ALMOST HAPPY sa work ko  ..hindi nakakasawa yung song kahit na ulit ulitin.. ok yung singer and the song..ok na din yung pagkaka record mo..( ok lang?  hehehe ..oo na mahusay ka na nga..  basta maririnig mo na lang) i like the sound of that mic you used..ADK ba yun? pintas ko lang eh yung mic sa cymbals.. pasensiya ka na.. matagal ko ng hinahanap yung tunog ng Neumann  ( KM 84 ba yun o 183??? hmmm) sa hi hat at cymbals    ... hindi kasi mawala wala sa kukote ko yung narinig ko na yun eh..

Aray, opo yung cymbals mukhang kailangan ko na ng bagong Oktava MK012'S or if I run short of budget, possibly MK-319s.  The ADK Hamburg was used as an ambient mic (alam ko somewhere above the kit.)

[moHaWk]

whoooooooooooooo!!!! sarap basahin ne2!!!! whooooooooooo!!!!!

[marvinq]

can't go wrong with the oktavas. i have 2 pairs of the mk012's. the other pair has the scott dorsey mod.

[starfugger]

just a question mr marvin, where did u purchase your oktavas?  are they locally available?  im aching to get  pair of sdc's as opposed to the ldc's that i use overhead. 

[marvinq]

got it from a friend who wanted to dispose of them. suwerte lang.

you could be happy with a rode nt4 or a pair of nt5's. i know i am. i have them too.

be careful when getting the oktavas. there are a lot of fakes.

[starfugger]

ah, thanks marvin.  was looking over at ebay but your warning made me a tad nervous.    mas safe siguro kung online store.