Guitar sounds like [gooey brown stuff]...

[skunkyfunk]

Maybe 7 out of 10 OPM songs I hear on NU107 have crappy guitar sounds.  Why oh why!  No good amps?  No good signal chains?  Bad converters?  Bad preamps?  Or this POD sickness is really the culprit?

[abyssinianson]

the POD can be good...it all comes down to how you engineer the mix. And, unless you have a good set of preamps or converters, you are going to have a hard time salvaging a good mix out of that. the thing with the POD is that it is a DI signal and it is usually better to record a clean or dirty signal through it with as less effects as possible (unless its a lead) because you can always edit it inside your sequencer.

i've engineered some guitar and bass mixes done with the POD XT Live and they sounded very good to work with. the rule of thumb is to give your engineer enough headroom to work with your tone and to talk things over with him before you record.

[starfugger]

i havent listend to nu lately. which particular song?

also, if it were always up to me i'd record using analog boxes (BOSS, Marshall, etc.).  luckily im able to convince the band most of the time but there are bands who insist on using their digital multi effects.  the digital stuff can sound pretty acceptable sometimes.  most times, they're downright offensive to the ear.  i know i'm biased, and i really havent heard how good or bad the POD is.  most of my digital effects experience cover zoom and digitech effects.  there's a way digital distorts guitar sounds.  the distortion is integral to the signal.  it becomes imprinted in the signal's genetic code (well, it would be if it had one).  you can't fix it with eq, or by plugging in an effect.  it's there no matter what you do. it's hard to describe, but it gets inside your head, into that part where it shouldn't be.  after a while headache sets in.  that's my experience with digital.  not to mean that one can't go wrong with analog.  but all things being equal,  there's a certain smoothness to analog, easier on the ear.

[abyssinianson]

the headache with digital is true - really bad listening fatigue. in cases such as those, i always make it a point to let the band know that although digital is good, it is always a good rule of thumb to record as dry as possible unless you are recording the following things - crunch guitars or weird modulated guitar layers - otherwise, record your clean, slightly over driven and crunch guitars as dry as possible and get that sounding as good as possible on the board before mixing into your sequencer.

the thing with digital is it CAN sound bad but that, like with everything is purely according to taste. analog can sound just as horrible. however, as an engineer, your job is to mix the music so it sounds pleasing to a wide range of people even if the artist likes his guitar tone sucky. but because this is really a touchy subject, i always try and describe the tone I want to go for so the artist gives me free reign over what I want to go for with their music. constructively suggesting options is key, otherwise, a good mix that caters to the artist, your ears as an engineer and the audience may never be achieved.

[starfugger]

as an engineer, your job is to mix the music so it sounds pleasing to a wide range of people even if the artist likes his guitar tone sucky.

true true. communication is key. i used to keep a bunch of songs featuring digital and analog guitar distortion (same genre) on my pc so i can pull them up any time to demo the difference to the clients.

[ksuayan]

How about using an amp modeler like the Vox Tonelab?
The 12AX7 tube is probably closer to that warm analog sound compared to the PodXT.

http://www.voxamps.co.uk/products/tonelab/tonelab.htm

This technology was codeveloped with Korg from their Electribe experience.

-kyo-

[skunkyfunk]

How about using an amp modeler like the Vox Tonelab?
The 12AX7 tube is probably closer to that warm analog sound compared to the PodXT.

http://www.voxamps.co.uk/products/tonelab/tonelab.htm

This technology was codeveloped with Korg from their Electribe experience.

-kyo-

A lot say the Tonelab sounds much better than the POD, but then I really don't think the 12AX7 has MUCH to do with it.  For all you know, it might be just one of those "starved plate" designs that essentially make a 12AX7 a "light bulb".  Behringer came up with a mic preamp that had a 12AX7 glowing to give an impression of TUBE WARMTH IN ACTION.  Haha, it wasn't the tube that was glowing, but 3 LEDs stuck behind the tube to illuminate it.  Check this out...

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Anyway, next time I see a 12AX7 in some recording gadget, first thing I look for is the schematic.

[abyssinianson]

there are only a few items on the market that have trusted valve designs...I suggest that if people are going to look into getting "valve warmth," they need to read up on which manufacturers have had experience building such designs and what other manufacturers are just playing the market and selling straight up clones....

[ksuayan]

Anyway, next time I see a 12AX7 in some recording gadget, first thing I look for is the schematic.

good point but i propbably wouldn't dare open my box and probe the circuits with a tester just to physically verify signal routes through the tube. i guess i will just have to trust the schematic and what the manual says:

from the manual:
http://img3.musiciansfriend.com/dbase/pdf/man/m_150313.pdf

"While much of the tone creation and shaping carried out is done in the digital domain, its Valve Reactor power amp is 100% analogue. The resulting journey your guitar’s signal takes through the analogue world of the power stage plays a major role in providing the all-important feel and tone of the original amps we modelled.

The Valve Reactor power stage is, to all intents and purposes, a bona fide valve (tube) push-pull power amplifier, but in miniature. It utilizes a 12AX7 (ECC83) valve (a dual triode device - meaning “two valves in one”) and is equipped with an output transformer, just like a “real” valve amp.

The power amp output of ToneLab’s Valve Reactor is designed to “read” the constantly changing impedance curve of the dummy speaker circuit system and feed this information back to the virtual output transformer – just like real valve amplifiers do. This information permits the behavior of the valve stage of the amp to vary with the speaker load (impedance), which is another important part of “real world” valve tone."

having said that, as they say, "the proof is in the pudding". bottomline for me is that i'm pretty happy with the Tonelab and would recommend it. by the way, the tube on my particular unit has a 12AX7EH from Russia by Electro Harmonix.

cheers,

-kyo-

[joetweakhead]

Hi there, everyone. I'm a new-join in this thread. Just a backgrounder on myself. I'm a Fil-Am who came back to the Phil last 2001 for a vacation and never went back, after a 23 year absence. (Having a local wife and 2 kids kinda makes it hard to leave and move them to the land of nothing's for free, although that backdoor will always remain open). I have operated a project studio in my house in Chicago for 15 of those 23 years, starting with a Yamaha, MT100 4 track cassette to record my own demos, moving up to a Fostex R8 1/4 inch tape to Tascam TSR8 1/2 inch  to 3 Adat XT 20s to MOTU 2408 to MOTU 828, and a good pair of speaker monitors like the KRK 7000B that I trust.
First thing I noticed in this Manila recording market - why post production houses charge upwards of PhP2,000 per hour for only up to 2 tracks of recording. They have the least number of equipment to buy and maintain and yet with their business client base, can get away with charging that much. Whereas, music studios, who purchase and maintain at least 24x of everything, with starving musicians as their client base, can only charge up to PhP 1,000 if they're a big studio with 2 inch tape a massive board and an ample mic closet and a good set of monitor speakers, less if you're a home set up. After 6 years of paying my dues, again,  in this Manila market, I have deduced why that is. It doesn't help that the good audio engineers are employed by such Post Production houses which leaves the "mga dating taga-timpla ng kape" type audio engineers to man this all important field (to say nothing of the live sound field). Then there's the home recordist type, who, as much as their budget would allow and poor availability of study materials still persevere to hone the craft. Reading the posts in this thread, the burning question of why Philippine recordings can't measure up to US/UK recordings, only leads to this answer - there is a serious lack of knowledge in the part of sound engineers in terms of tracking, gain-staging, mixing, using compression and EQ, etc.  Don't get me wrong, there's a few out there who deserve to get paid more than they're getting. I do free-lance mixing here in Manila and I think my clients know that they're getting the quality associated with US mixes, whether they be local bands or major label, regardless of what they pay me.  I have remixed other people's mixes and judging by those botched jobs I know where and how they failed. My advice to budding young recordists is to keep plugging away, practice your craft, know how to use a compressor (compressors are our friends) and EQ. Learn how they affect  the sound. Know the rules and break them. And while you're doing all that, let the pros do what they do best, instead of dragging everybody else down with your cut-rate, half-assed mixing jobs, you'll be serving yourself better by not accepting that album deal and let the pros do it. When you grow up to a healthy music industry that pays more, you'll be doubly thankful. Heed to what thread contributors like "abyssinianson" (he's in the States fighting in the trenches of audio recording and has a lot of good wisdom to share, in his own words,  "music engineering classes here(in US) put on the theoretical knowledge of frequencies, arranging, and tweaking. at least at Berklee") and others as well. Be serious about your recording business. Practice, if you have no clients, it only leads to more knowledge. Be familiar with your equipment, it's limitations and strengths. It's not enough to have the best and the latest equipment. Remember, a good engineer can make bad equipment sound good because of his knowledge of the basics, while good equipment can't make a mediocre engineer sound better.
Let's improve our industry. Let's learn our craft well. Let's research, read books on the subject and most of all, let's listen to the music, there's a lot to be learned from listening. Let's not just do commercials at Post houses. Let's make music and enjoy it. I picked this industry in the States because I enjoy music and not for the monetary rewards it brings later and in this Manila market, money is not even part of that equation. Let's do it for the love of our work.  Thank you. (that's my 2 cents),
Joe Tweakhead

[niggah]

ayuz!

[abyssinianson]

Joe, where did you reside in Chicago? There are a ton of great studios there - Chicago Trax, soundstage, and Electric - to name a few. I learned a lot from some people who worked at those studios because they were gracious to spread knowledge and experience whenever I asked.

Doing music for fun is at the heart of why we are all in this serious hobby of sorts. The Phils has a lot to share and it is only a matter of time before we too can share our music with the rest of the world. Experimentation is key. There is a lot to be done with the gear we already have and from here on, there is nowhere else to go but up as long as we share what we know and learn from each other to become better at our craft.

[bugoy]

How about using an amp modeler like the Vox Tonelab?
The 12AX7 tube is probably closer to that warm analog sound compared to the PodXT.

http://www.voxamps.co.uk/products/tonelab/tonelab.htm

This technology was codeveloped with Korg from their Electribe experience.

-kyo-

A lot say the Tonelab sounds much better than the POD, but then I really don't think the 12AX7 has MUCH to do with it.  For all you know, it might be just one of those "starved plate" designs that essentially make a 12AX7 a "light bulb".  Behringer came up with a mic preamp that had a 12AX7 glowing to give an impression of TUBE WARMTH IN ACTION.  Haha, it wasn't the tube that was glowing, but 3 LEDs stuck behind the tube to illuminate it.  Check this out...

http://www.record-producer.com/learn.cfm?a=2838

Anyway, next time I see a 12AX7 in some recording gadget, first thing I look for is the schematic.

meron akong behringer na MIC200 pre amp, actually binuksan ko sya dahil nakita ko yang ni post mo dati pa, wala namang led yung sakin at pinalitan ko sya ng electro harmonix na 12AX7 tube from stock Behringer tube, may big difference

[starfugger]

hi Joe, i agree with what you said about the amount of equipment it takes to record a song.  i do encourage friends to get into MIDI and musical arrangement because it does seem to pay a lot more, and it doesn't take too many gear, unlike in recording.  

however, people turning down album projects while they still havent reached their full potential as audio engineers is a little unrealistic IMO.  the major cause of our woes in the recording industry (and just about everything else) as i see it is mostly economics.  to a lot of us recording is our bread and butter.  if we start turning down projects while we hone our skills to become the best of the best, where do we get our finances to support our self-study? much worse, where do we get the finances to subsist? we have to admit somehow that recording quality is also gear-dependent.  i can definitely hear the BIG difference between the demos i made using a Roland VS-840 and a newly acquired RME, all other things being equal.  recording gear as we all know can be very expensive.  the income fuels our gear, and also it helps in supporting our self-study (books, magazines, online research, etc.).  if this were the states we can choose between allocating finances to 1) the purchase of new gear and 2) going to college to study audio engineering.  there is no such option here in the philippines.  one would have to go abroad to have the same kind of knowledge you have acquired (and that costs about 6-20 times more than buying gear).

this reminds us of post WW2 japan, who had to go solo for a while to survive.  im certain that a lot of their products then were inferior to imported goods, considering the diffuclty of producing quality goods right after the holocaust.  but the japanese supported their own, knowing that it was all temporary, never losing their vision depsite the crisis.  in the same vein, the Philippines still have not reached the peak of its potentials in audio recording/mixing/mastering.  but if we keep supporting eachother we will get there soon enough. and im hoping it happens in this lifetime.

your knowledge and the knowledge of other posters here is extremely VALUABLE to everyone.  we welcome the new insight and hope to learn from your techniques soon.  it's pretty obvious by now that what most of us need is affordable, systematic EDUCATION, to be able to maximize the use of equipment that we already have. they can go a long long way if we only had proper instruction and practice.  

on the side, it seems that there is a pressing need for mentors in audio engineering.  anyone thinking of putting up a school or something?

just my opinion.

[ksuayan]

I'm totally new to playing the guitar (so this posting is probably appropriate to the subject line, hahaha) but I'd like to hear some critique on the mastering and mixing from the pros with this piece I came up with over the weekend (pls. feel free to shred it to bits!).

http://www.barangayamerika.com/~kyo/Irrational_Blurcase.mp3

background: the backing track was sequenced from Reason 2.5 which was rewired to Ableton Live 5 (mostly a bunch of Subtractor synths). The guitar part from stock preset called "Vulgar" on a Vox Tonelab connected via spdif to M-Audio Firewire 410.

salamat po ...

-kyo-

[abyssinianson]

one thing you could do it overdub the guitars and then EQ those two tracks differently. You can EQ one track to accent the highs and cut the lows and overdub that with a second guitar tracks EQd with a bit of boost around 70-90hz, right around where you'd want to boost the drum's bottom end a bit. This way, you can have a bit of syncopation that works for the drums as well as the guitars to give the overall drive of the song a bit of stronger bottom end.

The good thing about DI guitar signals is that it gives you a lot to work with as far as tweaking a guitar sound so it sits nicely in the context of the whole mix. The drawback is, if you don't treat it with respect to the other parts of the song - in your case, the electronic elements - then the guitars might sound a bit too sterile and weak.

I use Reason a lot as well and I liberally use the EQs and Compressor on it. The latest version 3, has more than enough to produce some very nice sounding tracks.

[BALDO]

KSUAYAN
interesting work..  can you pan the high hat sound slightly to the left or right, it might create a perception of better sound separation, also try to pan from left to right the synth sounds. just my idea...

[BALDO]

SKUNKYFUNK
yan din ang observation ko sa mga naririnig ko na rock albums.. my guess is.. o GUESS Lang ha..kasi wala ako sa session
1. mali ang mic'ing technique
2. too much use of pedals or guitar effects
3. hindi ok yung room acoustics
4. hindi ok yung mic na gamit
5. mixing board is not a good one , lacks enough headroom
6. too much compression
7. too much EQ
8. hindi trained masyado yung ear ng sound engr.
9. arranger/ producer is a keyboardist and doesn't really know how a   guitar should sound.
10. lastly..... kulang ang budget! kaya minadali yung project..
so yun lang ang naisip ko..me maidadagdag pa ba kayo?    

[KitC]

9. arranger/ producer is a keyboardist and doesn't really know how a   guitar should sound.

There's a sweeping statement there because, frankly, I play keys BUT I know how a guitar SHOULD sound. There was once a joke floating around mixing circles about not letting a guitarist man the board because inadvertently, all guitars will sound good, to the detriment of the other instruments.

Of course you want all instruments to sound good in a mix. The problem is, if everything sounds good, the entire mix will become a big wash of clashing frequencies vying for the listener's attention. You're not mixing to make a particular instrument sound good but to make the entire song sound good. If the song contains vocals, this makes it a bit more challenging because guitars and vocals practically share the same frequency band - so what will take precedence in a song? (doh)

Often, in a good mix, when you solo a particular instrument, it will sound somewhat lacking by itself. A good mix engineer knows how to make all individual elements fit into a song. A great mix engineer will make that song stand out.

[drummer10630]

KitC is correct. I have heard countless recordings where everyone, or maybe just the engineer, tries to make each instrument FULL BANDWIDTH. That's a big mistake. The frequencies of rock guitar to play with are around 800hz, that's the balls of a guitar ala Leslie West, Billy Gibbons, Brian May, Eddie Van Halen, etc... You really don't need anything above 4k, and for sure don't need anything below 400hz. The 2k range can be very annoying for guitar, just play around a bit. You just get frequency wiping and masking when you try to let everything use the same timbre. BTW each guitarist I mentioned gets their sound from SPEAKER distortion, not pickup or preamp overdrive. I can't even begin tell you how many great guitar recordings were made with a Shure sm57 and a Marshall half stack or similar. Don't be afraid to tweak the guitarist's amp. His tone may suck to begin with...

[starfugger]

ditto that Kit.  

it's also because of lack of budget, according to BALDO.    yesterday i had to mix 4 songs in less than 5 hours. we do the best we can but listening and mixing takes a bit more time than just a little over an hour per song, right?

distortion guitars are still best through a guitar amp.  oh by the way i found this really great piece about recording guitars.  if you're not into profanity then excuse the his french but you still shouldn't pass this up since it IS a gem.   and might i add, extremely entertaining:

http://badmuckingfastard.com/sound/slipperman.html#goals

good luck!

[joetweakhead]

Hi Abys,

Where in the States are you Abys?  Chicago's a great music town, most sound engineers I met there are so accommodating and more than willing to share their knowledge. Some studios I've been to there... Streeterville Studios, Chicago Trax, 35th Street Studios and countless project studios.
One thing they all have in common, they pour everything into their work, they won't release any work until it's the best it could be. Wala doong "Ok na yan, pwede na" attitude that Pinoys engineers utter a lot.  Hell, it takes them at least 3 days to mix one song for commercial release. Here, they expect you to mix a song for 4 hours only. That's not enough time to clean up drum leakage let alone mix the song. And the killer is, they lowball you into doing the project for peanuts.  My point to starfugger about not taking on that album project until one has really mastered the craft, is, when you know you're worth more than what they want to pay you and refuse their offer, they'll think twice about offering you a low budget next time. The only choice for them is to offer it to some lesser engineer and they'll get what they pay for.  If they learn their lesson they'll come back to you for their next project at your price. But most of these clients won't know the difference between a good mix and a mediocre one so the cycle continues. If your mixes translate to more CD sales for the record company then your place is secured in this market.
So, let me rephrase that statement, starfugger, to this. While you're honing your craft  and learning the ropes, do take on that DEMO project to feed yourself and allow you to buy better equipment. But do leave that commercial album project  to the pros. The listening public will feel cheated out of their hard-earned money if they buy an inferior product sending  the snowball downhill affecting the entire music industry down to bands and musicians trying to do their art. The pros have a lot invested in their craft.  
Till next posting...

Joe Tweakhead

[starfugger]

i apologize for posting in this particular thread as it doesn't really pertain to the subject matter, and respectfully ask the moderator to move it wherever appropriate.

no doubt, unlimited time and budget can do wonders to a musical recording, joetweekhead.  i agree that it takes a lot of time to just mix and cleanup a song. i really don't know how long local major studios do it but if they use outboard gear then im guessing it should take many, many hours.

there will never be a shortage of underbudgeted musicians and artists in the Philippines until the economic situation improves.  as far as i know, i give them a good and decent alternative to translate their ideas into actual recorded material.  what they do with that is up to them. i have no control over what they do to their cd ...  although i constantly remind them of their responsibility to the paying public in case they release a half-baked product.  it is the label's responsibility to filter what is commercially released and what is not.  if a recording falls short of local standard quality, then it is the label's responsibility to provide ample re-production funds.  in the long run,  the label will be the one who decides which is demo quality and which isn't.  my job is to meet my client's requirements and budget as best as possible.  

just my two centavos.

[BALDO]

i can safely say that starfugger is correct.. until the economic situation is ok in the philippines, the recording business will still be the same. even here i have to sacrifice giving freebies kasi hindi maka afford yung mga bands..  just because i strongly believe in their music.. also i think another problem REALLY is.. the MATERIAL..hanggang hindi tayo nag cocompose ng ORIGINAL TALAGA na music.. very limited ang market natin.. until we stop sounding like mariah carey, whitney houston, beyonce etc- for the ladies and sinatra, monroe, plant, lennon/mcartney, buble', axl rose, eminem etc for the guys and play like vai, malmsteen, clapton, santana etc...then wala na tayong pag asa.. saka in this day and age sinong company ang mag iinvest sa artist/band na madalas na nakokopya ang cd at binebenta lang sa quiapo o greenhills? its all about economics.. malaki na din ang nalulugi sa malalaking recording companies dito sa US kasi recordings are done at home.. remember yung CD ni Ricky Martin? gawa lang yun sa basement...maraming songs na nag hit na home recordings.. like yung ke MC Hammer- at NAJEE - made on a 16 track analog machine. pop singer Stacy Q -- 4 track machine hehehehe.. kaya yung mga nag i start ng home recordings diyan wag mawalan ng pag asa hehehhe.. i always believe in the more for less than less for more in terms of equipment and music production.. oooppsss 5 centavos na ito..hehehehe  

[joetweakhead]

Hi starfugger, Baldo & Abys,

Your points are well taken. Economics certainly plays a big role in Philippine music situation, Quiapo and greenhills taken into account. There's still a lot of revenue being generated by the label in spite of the piracy. Piracy is a global problem,  it's just more rampant in the Philippines.
But record companies are still in business. Maybe Edu Manzano is actually doing his job. Record companies will make their money no matter what. In this business, we see the label as the evil empire hoarding all earnings from an artist's album. But that's a myth, it's the songwriter and publisher that gets most of the pie. The label merely  gets a sizeable piece that's why they have to sign a lot of artists to make up for one artist that didn't sell. They're in this business not to lose money. And yes it's the label's responsibility to filter out the demo sounding recordings and re-record that or have it re-mixed. That's the bulk of my work now and I get a lot of work from labels wanting to improve the quality. Once in a while I'll get Sonar and Cubase/Nuendo files and see what they did to the mix, how they implemented plug ins (compression, EQ). The first thing that comes to mind: "How the hell do they survive out there in this recording business having  a mix like this"? I see the problem is with the use or misuse of EQ & compression  and gain-staging. My 4 year old can do better. And my point of knowing your craft in earlier posts rings louder now. Sure, flat frequency speakers help the mix, but knowledge plus a good set of ears will help more. And get this, one mix even put a reverb on each and every track thru inserts. Haven't they heard of Aux sends thru one reverb plugin and sharing it with, say, all drums drum tracks?
This is simple sound engineering knowledge that this new crop of these so-called mixing engineers simply do not share.  He probably has 2 gigs of memory to support all the reverb plugins he inserted on each track. And the settings are all the same. Go figure. Does this only happen to DAW users? A perfect example of too much gear in the hands of amateurs and sounding bad as opposed to less gear for the pro engineer but who could make it sound like a commercial release.
I learned from an analog board and one or 2 outboard gear. I learned how to allocate compression to tracks that need it in the mix and sharing one reverb box to all tracks with varying wet/dry settings. Doesn't anybody teach that stuff here? There's a wealth of information out there, in the net, Recording Magazine, Electronic Musician, Mix Magazine to actually digest and learn from.

So let's improve our audio professionals' sound quality thru practice and research and listening. And maybe tomorrow, we'll wake up to a robust music industry here in the Phils.

Till next time, gentlepeople,

Joe Tweakhead