questions about drum recording...

[bahayyugyugan]

ano ang tama?

tapusin ko ba muna yung drum track then add compression and eq's..
or set ko na yung compression and eq's then start drum tracking..

gusto ko kasi malaman, di ko pa kasi natest since by weekend pa talaga ako magsisimula.

maraming salamat!!

[BAMF]

Depende. Pag outboard ang compressor and EQ mo,you'll have to set them before you begin.

Pag VST ang compressor and EQ mo, it doesn't matter as you can still change them even if your drums are already recorded.

[irajames]

I use a VST compressor. I record the drums first then add the compressor.

mas madali mag lagay ng compressor and eq's after recording para na titimpla mo pa.

[mikep]

Both ways.  No set rules.  Whether plug in or hardware, it really depends on what works best for you.

FWIW

[s2ry0fdyr]

I prefer to record in dry.

[starfugger]

i record drums with just a touch of hardware compression.  why?  iba kasi yung effect ng compresson na minus -4db sa isang pasada compared to -2 db twice.  that's one reason.  so konting compression during the tracking stage, then konting compression via plugs during mixing.  i also wanna use the good hardware comps in the studio if i know i wont do outboard processing during the mixing stage.

[digitalcyco]

Both ways.  No set rules.  Whether plug in or hardware, it really depends on what works best for you.

FWIW

+10

I prefer to record in dry.

likewise.

I record all the tracks dry and fiddle with VST plugins later.   

[BAMF]

Dati we used outboard comp/limiter on snare and kick kasi it overloads the preamp stage. Ngayon sa bagong set-up for some reason, it doesn't happen anymore. So my outboard is gathering dust. But I'll resucitate it once I get a surplus line mixer. Para di naman maubos ang inputs ko para lang sa outboard returns.

[BALDO]

it depends on the drummer. kung medyo aggresive yung player at masyado ang dynamics..i use a hardware compressor, kung magaling at even yung palo then i just use limiting.. then plugins na compressor sa mixing stage. also it depends sa hinihingi ng song..kung kailangan yung maraming compression for effects .... so like what the Master and Guru Mike P says... no set rules..

[skunkyfunk]

Before you find answers, ask yourself...

1.  What music do you play?

2.  What drum sound is needed for the type of music?

3.  How loud does your drummer hit?

IMO, I prefer using soft-knee hardware compressors for overheads, ambient and room mics.  It fattens the sound a lot.  For close-mics, it really depends.  Some types of music like 60s rock and modern jazz don't need compression (and gating) for the close mics.  For louder music, close-mics definitely need hard knee compression. 

I also noticed that tuning drums too tight don't really work well with high compression settings.  Ultra-muffled and thuddy drums benefit pretty well from short-transient, fast attack compression. 

*MGA SAKIT NG ULO NG ENGINEER*:

Your drummer wants to get those huge tom sounds, but his cymbals are almost on the same level as the toms.  He wants fast-attack + gating for the toms and the snare, while he bangs the open hats very loudly.  He gives you a Deftones reference drum sound, but he doesn't want any form of triggering or drum replacement. 

[BAMF]

*MGA SAKIT NG ULO NG ENGINEER*:

Your drummer wants to get those huge tom sounds, but his cymbals are almost on the same level as the toms.  He wants fast-attack + gating for the toms and the snare, while he bangs the open hats very loudly.  He gives you a Deftones reference drum sound, but he doesn't want any form of triggering or drum replacement. 

Ganun ba ? E di don't tell him what you're doing. Pag nag-open ka ng Drumagog at sinabi "ano yan?" Sabihin mo ahhh...EQ modeller yan para lumapit sa sound na gusto mo...yang mga drumkits na yan mga EQ presets yan. Mwahahahaha.

Thank God for Drumagog.

[starfugger]

Before you find answers, ask yourself...

1.  What music do you play?

2.  What drum sound is needed for the type of music?

3.  How loud does your drummer hit?

IMO, I prefer using soft-knee hardware compressors for overheads, ambient and room mics.  It fattens the sound a lot.  For close-mics, it really depends.  Some types of music like 60s rock and modern jazz don't need compression (and gating) for the close mics.  For louder music, close-mics definitely need hard knee compression. 

I also noticed that tuning drums too tight don't really work well with high compression settings.  Ultra-muffled and thuddy drums benefit pretty well from short-transient, fast attack compression. 

*MGA SAKIT NG ULO NG ENGINEER*:

Your drummer wants to get those huge tom sounds, but his cymbals are almost on the same level as the toms.  He wants fast-attack + gating for the toms and the snare, while he bangs the open hats very loudly.  He gives you a Deftones reference drum sound, but he doesn't want any form of triggering or drum replacement. 

yep, i agree.  the genre and type of playing will very much dictate how much compression (if any at all) is applied.

about the dilemma you mentioned, it is very true that a drummer's dynamics and tehcnique help big time in creating the desired finished product.  sometimes a compromise has to be reached, like "baka pwede natin itaas ng konti yung cymbals from the toms, or angat natin ng konti yung hats kasi malakas ang bleed sa snare mic".  kung kinakailangan or if it's any help at all you can make a small gobo type thing to separate the hat and snare mics. i found this on the net

Take a mic pop filter, cover it with a knit ski cap, clip it
to the hihat stand and position it between the snare
& the hats. Wool not being particularly resonant; no
unwanted reflections.  


anything is worth trying. you may ask the drummer to sample each cymbal and snare after the song has been recorded, and layer that sample so you don't have to raise the overheads too much if the track is problematic.  it is still best to make the drummer understand the nuances of recording, what can and cannot be done.  i heard once that dave grohl was made to record the drums without hats or cymbals. and then these elements were recorded afterward, because from the get go, they knew they were going to compress the drums big time, or needed the isolation for some other reason.

[starfugger]

Ganun ba ? E di don't tell him what you're doing. Pag nag-open ka ng Drumagog at sinabi "ano yan?" Sabihin mo ahhh...EQ modeller yan para lumapit sa sound na gusto mo...yang mga drumkits na yan mga EQ presets yan. Mwahahahaha.

Thank God for Drumagog.

LOL, you can even get the samples via sound check as we do ask drummers to hit each drum while tweaking the knobs   just press the record button to get your multi sampled snare.   lol.

i still think it is best to make the drummer understand how we do things

[skunkyfunk]

Speaking of Drumagog, how do you make your own multisamples for snare hits?  I believe you can do some groupings (i.e. loud, soft, center, a bit off center).  I am not really used to replacing sounds as I feel it can kill the natural feel of the drummer when abused.

[skunkyfunk]

LOL, you can even get the samples via sound check as we do ask drummers to hit each drum while tweaking the knobs  just press the record button to get your multi sampled snare.   lol.

i still think it is best to make the drummer understand how we do things

I often do that (test tracks op cors) but I find it rare to go back to the sound check recordings unless I have huge problems with bleed (or if I fck up with too much clipping ).  Actually this is a very powerful technique as used and abused in most metal and mainstream music.

[starfugger]

Speaking of Drumagog, how do you make your own multisamples for snare hits?  I believe you can do some groupings (i.e. loud, soft, center, a bit off center).  I am not really used to replacing sounds as I feel it can kill the natural feel of the drummer when abused.

it does take away something very integral to the sound of an entire kit ... that organic element that makes us feel like the drum set is indeed a single instrument.  but then if you sample the same drums for isolation purposes (as in the case of too much hats bleeding through the snare mic) maybe it wont be that obvious.  second, sampling is a godsend for badly recorded drums.  just replacing a badly recorded snare does wonders to a song

i think drumagog has a feature where in you can load mutisamples and save the set as a single gog file.  then you can set the amplitude at which a certain sample is triggered.

[BAMF]

LOL, you can even get the samples via sound check as we do ask drummers to hit each drum while tweaking the knobs   just press the record button to get your multi sampled snare.   lol.

i still think it is best to make the drummer understand how we do things

E pano kung gusto nyang sound eh Slingerland, tapos Pearl lang ang drums mo ? Tapos wag ka daw gagamit ng triggering/replacement? Pano na ? Hehehe. Jok lang syempre transparency is always the best.

[starfugger]

E pano kung gusto nyang sound eh Slingerland, tapos Pearl lang ang drums mo ? Tapos wag ka daw gagamit ng triggering/replacement? Pano na ? Hehehe. Jok lang syempre transparency is always the best.

RENT.

lol.

[bloodshedd]

E pano kung gusto nyang sound eh Slingerland, tapos Pearl lang ang drums mo ? Tapos wag ka daw gagamit ng triggering/replacement? Pano na ? Hehehe. Jok lang syempre transparency is always the best.

...or if the drummer wants the Mayhem/Lamb of God "Tigidik" kick drum sound??? ...while having a very open sounding overhead sound?? Hahaha!

[s2ry0fdyr]

sir.. do you always compromise a drummer for changing his drum set-up to arrive at a desired sound?

y

about the dilemma you mentioned, it is very true that a drummer's dynamics and tehcnique help big time in creating the desired finished product.  sometimes a compromise has to be reached, like "baka pwede natin itaas ng konti yung cymbals from the toms, or angat natin ng konti yung hats kasi malakas ang bleed sa snare mic".  kung kinakailangan or if it's any help at all you can make a small gobo type thing to separate the hat and snare mics. i found this on the net

[starfugger]

sir.. do you always compromise a drummer for changing his drum set-up to arrive at a desired sound?

ALWAYS? no.  im glad that i usually work with seasoned drummers who have great technique  so balanse yung tunog. in adition, hindi rin mahirap pakiusapan yung pro's if we find something wrong with their set up (e.g. one cymbal is too loud compared to everything else).  madali nilang naiintindihan ang nuances ng recording ... well probably because they have been in the business for so long din.  

know that we normally wait for the drummer to set up the height and position of the throne, toms, snare, hats  and cymbals before we mic them, and if, during soundcheck we find something anomalous, only then do we adjust, first and formost, the position of the mic.  that is usually enough.  what skunkyfunk was talking about is an extreme case which doesn't happen too often in my experience.

[glowstick]

This is where you get to differentiate the artists who are pros and those who are still in baby bottles

ALWAYS? no.  im glad that i usually work with seasoned drummers who have great technique  so balanse yung tunog. in adition, hindi rin mahirap pakiusapan yung pro's if we find something wrong with their set up (e.g. one cymbal is too loud compared to everything else).  madali nilang naiintindihan ang nuances ng recording ... well probably because they have been in the business for so long din.  

know that we normally wait for the drummer to set up the height and position of the throne, toms, snare, hats  and cymbals before we mic them, and if, during soundcheck we find something anomalous, only then do we adjust, first and formost, the position of the mic.  that is usually enough.  what skunkyfunk was talking about is an extreme case which doesn't happen too often in my experience.

[skunkyfunk]

Actually totoo nga yata na the big boys are more forgiving than the little boys.  One very good example is Otep Concepcion.  The guy is ultra-tight with the click track.  As IN.  Sarap mag multiple takes tapos dice and slice na lang ng wave forms for the best takes.  

May ibang drummer, wala na nga sa tiyempo, sinisisi pa yung triggers. Yung iba naman isang oras ayusing ang drum throne para di raw mapolikat.  

I now believe  the reason why producers like drummers that play tight with the click.  And those who know how to make the right fills.

[skunkyfunk]

sir.. do you always compromise a drummer for changing his drum set-up to arrive at a desired sound?

y

about the dilemma you mentioned, it is very true that a drummer's dynamics and tehcnique help big time in creating the desired finished product.  sometimes a compromise has to be reached, like "baka pwede natin itaas ng konti yung cymbals from the toms, or angat natin ng konti yung hats kasi malakas ang bleed sa snare mic".  kung kinakailangan or if it's any help at all you can make a small gobo type thing to separate the hat and snare mics. i found this on the net

"Never sacrifice  style <i.e. tone> for comfort."
"Never sacrifice comfort for style."

2 opposing views that make art a  very nice subject.

[starfugger]

"Never sacrifice  style <i.e. tone> for comfort."
"Never sacrifice comfort for style."

2 opposing views that make art a  very nice subject.

hindi naman kailangan all or nothing.  i believe a middle ground can be reached basta maayos ang usapan

kung sabihin sakin ng drummer na hindi sya comfortable revising his setup or technique, then that settles it.  i will not push the idea any further.  hanap nalang ako ng iba pang paraan. 

minsan ka lang talaga makaka-encounter ng kliyenteng mahirap kausap.  in such cases, as an engineer you have to spend more time with that person to understand where he is coming from.  if you have to sit down and have a couple of beers with that person do so. when it comes to difficult clients, dalawa lang naman yan: it's either he is a virtuoso, or a noob.  in both cases, there are times you have to put your foot down.  most of the time though, it doesn't hurt to consider the other person's idea first. 

btw, OT na tayo