questions about drum recording...

[superwup]

@ Skunkyfunk: Maybe you can contact this guy, he is very specialised in tube amps and can advice you why your tube's blow and probably has the solution, i know he is really good...........

http://www.drtube.com/

[glowstick]

Actually, my experience has been different. I've seen drummers break stuff because of poor technique. You see and hear it anyway. You see it when they bring their own snares. Check the consistency of the wear and tear on the head itself. The closer it is to a small circle, the most consistent their technique. If the hits are all over the place, there's not a very good chance that they were intentional. That'd be the time to use your less expensive mics, drum heads and cymbals. And you MIGHT need drumagog.

I do have a number of cymbals, but I've developed a few favorites, and consequently, they've had a bigger share of the wear and tear. It's a bit fortunate that my studio is a personal project studio, and so for the most part I get to choose who gets to use it, so my encounters with drummers with less-than-desirable technique has been kept to a minimum. I've seen a lot of them in other studios though.

hahaha....nakatambol lang eh drummer na...kaya when iggy de guzman (nepa-q mart) was still alive, he loved our group because we treated his gear as if it was our own....plus we got good discounts on his studio rental rates...our guitarist never even broke a string 

[skunkyfunk]

What exactly do you mean by POOR TECHNIQUE?

IMHO, there is no such thing as ABSOLUTELY poor technique.  I can only classify drummers into two types:  (1)  those who can stay in time;  and (2) those who cannot stay in time. 

Drum teachers, in general, teach how to economize your movements so you can do more rudiments in a free-flowing manner.  So that is where your moeller technique and stick bouncing techniques come in.  But I digress, not all types of music require a 'formalized' style of playing.

For example:


Yam Concepcion of Ursaminor

VS.

http://playitstraight.multiply.com/video/item/33/bea_lao_for_mapex_drums
Bea Lao of Wally Gonzalez and King Antares

Two girl drummers.  One has a very raw and garage-y  style, while the other has a very schooled approach.  Who would wreck a drum kit first?  Yam can surely deliver the goods in the Seattle subpop influence style of playing, and her snare hits do not sound as consistent as Bea's (  but would I not allow Yam to record because her technique doesn't resemble a schooled one's?  Yam is a loud hitter while Bea is very precise, and every note and accent is well-controlled.   

For me, if there is a drummer I would not like to record, it is one who cannot make a fill to fit the counts on a 4-4 measure.
 

[marvinq]

Well, I don't know Yam, but I've seen Bea, and I've recorded her too. She's got good technique, and won't be killing any drum heads and cymbals before their time, unless she intends to.

Poor technique?  Yung patusok yung palo. Yung hindi pinapatalbog yung stick sa balat. Yung iba-iba ang tunog nang hindi sinasadya. Boyet Aquino is also a loud drummer, but he's got good technique. If you listen closely, you will be able to hear poor technique, if you know how good technique sounds. There are genres that sound great with some degree of recklessness, but I prefer the controlled kind. How do you know which is which? The controlled kind is intentional. It can't be called intentional if all the drummer knows is to be reckless. It's like performing an 'out' note or phrase. The same phrase, in the hands of a mature musician, will sound so much more intentional than the one who played it by mistake (which is of course, unintentional; that's why it's a mistake), or somebody who played it without conviction.

[rakrakan]

Singit ako sandali. Prefer ko din i-record yung may technique at may control. Lalo na sa blues, funk and R&B very important ang technique. Lalo na sa metal, kailangan ng technique. Hate ko yung mga nagb-blast beat tapos ako ang mag-a-ayos ng blast beat nila, hehehe. Pag may technique kahit mahina pumalo, busog ang tunog. Pag walang technique, kahit malakas pumalo manipis pa din at walang groove. Kahit parang metronome pa sya kung mag keep time kung walang groove hwag na din lang. that's just me naman. good night!

[marvinq]

I prefer not-so-loud hitters too. It helps capture the sound of the shell. Can't crank up the gain of my preamps with loud hitters. Most of the time I have to engage the pad. Drummers with great technique can lower their volume without sacrificing the groove. A drummer would be a b*tch to record if all he had was speed and loudness (and 2 levels of dynamics - loud and louder).

[drummer10630]

Sorry to revive an old thread but I wanted to share my comments. Being a drummer and an engineer I have a slighty different perspective. My viewpoint is as an engineer, just do everything I can to record the drummer no matter how he plays, or what equipment his is using, WITHOUT changing his technique or modifying his physical setup. Why? I get better recordings from musicians that are COMFORTABLE.

I will give you an example. I did the drum engineering on the album "Time Crunch" for the group Niacin with Dennis Chambers and Billy Sheehan. Dennis has a certain attack volume on the drums, and he is very consistant with this level. While doing the setup, I noticed that I wasn't getting the tone out of the drums I was looking for. Now Dennis uses his Pearl Masters Custom kit (at that time) and Evans drum heads. Asking Dennis to hit harder, or softer, was not an option (if you know what I mean?), so what I did was, I called a product rep at Remo and told him to send over a complete set of Remo White Coated Ambassador drum heads, and pleaded with Dennis just to TRY them, until he relented. Now of course, we couldn't tell the Evans guys, and I had to tell the Remo guy that I was trying to convert Dennis to using their product, (which I wasn't, as he had a bad experience with Remo when he was an up and coming drummer, and vowed NEVER to use them). Anyway, we replaced the heads and "VOILA", we were good to go, and IMHO the drums sounded great on that recording.


Mics used: Sennheiser md-421's toms and kick
Shure SM-57 snare, didn't mic the bottom
Neumann U-87's overhead room mics
Shure SM-81's direct overheads
additional Beyer  M-88 on the kick


Console: Trident 80-B
Pro Tools rig for tracking
Then transferred the audio to a Studer 24 track 2' tape deck for that analogue smoothness

One note, I pre-EQ'ed the drum mix, ON INPUT, since I was their live sound engineer I knew the sound they were looking for, and didn't want to chance the other engineer altering the sound of the drums. At final mixdown, I have to admit, the drums sounded a bit strange when solo'ed, but within the mix, AMAZING.

[rakrakan]

Sorry to revive an old thread but I wanted to share my comments. Being a drummer and an engineer I have a slighty different perspective. My viewpoint is as an engineer, just do everything I can to record the drummer no matter how he plays, or what equipment his is using, WITHOUT changing his technique or modifying his physical setup. Why? I get better recordings from musicians that are COMFORTABLE.

I will give you an example. I did the drum engineering on the album "Time Crunch" for the group Niacin with Dennis Chambers and Billy Sheehan. Dennis has a certain attack volume on the drums, and he is very consistant with this level. While doing the setup, I noticed that I wasn't getting the tone out of the drums I was looking for. Now Dennis uses his Pearl Masters Custom kit (at that time) and Evans drum heads. Asking Dennis to hit harder, or softer, was not an option (if you know what I mean?), so what I did was, I called a product rep at Remo and told him to send over a complete set of Remo White Coated Ambassador drum heads, and pleaded with Dennis just to TRY them, until he relented. Now of course, we couldn't tell the Evans guys, and I had to tell the Remo guy that I was trying to convert Dennis to using their product, (which I wasn't, as he had a bad experience with Remo when he was an up and coming drummer, and vowed NEVER to use them). Anyway, we replaced the heads and "VOILA", we were good to go, and IMHO the drums sounded great on that recording.


Mics used: Sennheiser md-421's toms and kick
Shure SM-57 snare, didn't mic the bottom
Neumann U-87's overhead room mics
Shure SM-81's direct overheads
additional Beyer  M-88 on the kick


Console: Trident 80-B
Pro Tools rig for tracking
Then transferred the audio to a Studer 24 track 2' tape deck for that analogue smoothness

One note, I pre-EQ'ed the drum mix, ON INPUT, since I was their live sound engineer I knew the sound they were looking for, and didn't want to chance the other engineer altering the sound of the drums. At final mixdown, I have to admit, the drums sounded a bit strange when solo'ed, but within the mix, AMAZING.

Thanks for sharing man, I love those NIACIN releases though I wish a lot of times that Billy would just play bass guitar. 

Dennis Chambers, wow, would be a dream to record him.

My only comment about the experience you shared is that while you did not ask Dennis to change his style/technique, you did ask him to change his heads. For a lot of pros, equipment is part of their technique.

Anyway, the lesson of the story is to not stop to get the sound, right? Including printing the EQ so engineers down the line can't mess with yer tracks. Cool!

[drummer10630]

Agreed about Billy. When on tour with Mr Big, you wouldn't believe what I had to do EQ wise to get some low end in the mix. Nine bass guitar inputs total. Anyway, in the drum heads case with Dennis, I knew it wasn't a matter of him not liking the Remo heads, I knew it was more of a political issue, so I just let him hear some playback with the Evans, then the Remos. If he would not have agreed with me, we would have gone ahead with the Evans, as he knows what he wants to hear. The pre-EQ'ing thing, while controversal, worked out in the end, as I believe it was his best drum sound of the Niacin recordings, if I do say so myself (wow, humble ha?). I am so lucky to have had a career as both a drummer, and tour manager/sound engineer. I have worked with the most amazing artists, and learned so much, while GETTING PAID to be there. Too bad I'm so old now, (nearly 55), I would love to be playing/touring again...

[rakrakan]

Too bad I'm so old now, (nearly 55), I would love to be playing/touring again...

Aw, c'mon. 55 is like being 25, especially if you're in AC.

Any more high end goodies you're hiding there?

[drummer10630]

LOL, nope, not hiding anything, but to be honest, I wish I had some of those drumsets, and audio equipment I sold, back with me now. I swear the only high end kits I can find are abroad and you know how it is getting them thru customs...? Are you going to the demo of the NS-10 sound alikes this week?

[bellhaus]

dry

[jmdesign]

Sorry if OT ito...

I have a laptop, shure 7pc drum mic complete with cables and a 12 channel USB powered mixer. Are these gadgets enough to start home recording? What set-up is simple yet effective? What software is the simple yet best to use?  Thanks in advance. 

[KitC]

Sorry if OT ito...

I have a laptop, shure 7pc drum mic complete with cables and a 12 channel USB powered mixer. Are these gadgets enough to start home recording? What set-up is simple yet effective? What software is the simple yet best to use?  Thanks in advance. 

Most usb mixers only output a stereo submix, unless it is a usb 2.0 capable mixer. If you're with recording a stereo mix only, then you're golden, but with drum miking, you would prefer a usb mixer capable of multitrack output. Firewire mixers are usually capable of multitracking, but these seem to be rare nowadays.

[jmdesign]

Most usb mixers only output a stereo submix, unless it is a usb 2.0 capable mixer. If you're with recording a stereo mix only, then you're golden, but with drum miking, you would prefer a usb mixer capable of multitrack output. Firewire mixers are usually capable of multitracking, but these seem to be rare nowadays.

Thanks for the reply.  I need to check on the specs of the mixer. However, I plan to use a VHS recorder instead for recording via RCA jack output. Although, the PC is still an option. What software is easy to use yet effective?

[alien_inside]

" Pag may technique kahit mahina pumalo, busog ang tunog. " - Peter Erskin...

[KitC]

Thanks for the reply.  I need to check on the specs of the mixer. However, I plan to use a VHS recorder instead for recording via RCA jack output. Although, the PC is still an option. What software is easy to use yet effective?

VHS? Interesting. I've read about this a long, long time ago and it was quite viable for hifi systems then.

As for software, try Audacity. It's freeware and no-nonsense, but you might find it just a bit lacking when it comes to some serious editing and audio manipulation tools. If the audio is stereo only, you can use common editors such as Soundforge, Cool Edite/Adobe Audition, or Wavelab, I particularly like Wavelab because of it's audio montage feature which serves me very well for audio post.

[jmdesign]

VHS? Interesting. I've read about this a long, long time ago and it was quite viable for hifi systems then.

As for software, try Audacity. It's freeware and no-nonsense, but you might find it just a bit lacking when it comes to some serious editing and audio manipulation tools. If the audio is stereo only, you can use common editors such as Soundforge, Cool Edite/Adobe Audition, or Wavelab, I particularly like Wavelab because of it's audio montage feature which serves me very well for audio post.

Yeah... my uncle who works in the US as a r&d head of a sound gadget company said that its equivalent to digital. Do you mind sharing any links as for the sample mix of these sound tools? thanks

[marvinq]

Well, I can remember before the days of the DAT, I saw in Cinema Audio a PCM encoder/decoder, and it was connected to a VHS player/recorder.

[bellhaus]

Well, I can remember before the days of the DAT, I saw in Cinema Audio a PCM encoder/decoder, and it was connected to a VHS player/recorder.

VHS player? is it like the ones in AMERASIAN? kasi when we recorded our album w/VIVA-V3 they were transfering some regine tracks from this massive/multiple vhs like player to protool.

[KitC]

Those were probably ADATs.

[marvinq]

Yes, they are ADAT-XT's.

[BALDO]

Well, I can remember before the days of the DAT, I saw in Cinema Audio a PCM encoder/decoder, and it was connected to a VHS player/recorder.

i think i saw a VHS machine before na gawa ng Hitachi na me PCM encoder/decoder pero mahal noon kaya walang masyadong bumili..

[alien_inside]

Yes, they are ADAT-XT's.

yes. i still have one here hehehe and its not just VHS... its S-VHS.

[marvinq]

Yes, it's S-VHS for the ADATs. It's VHS for the PCM encoder/decoder.