Mixing IN ABSENCE of the client

[skunkyfunk]

Do you folks do this? Say you got a really "busy" client (ugggh) who'll just show up for tracking and then gives you a reference CD... and he'll tell you "This is the way I want my mix to come out..."

Now say you're done, and you've rendered the final mix, he takes the CD home, pops the CD through his car stereo or rips it to his iPod, and then you get a call that you should mix it again. Thing is, he doesn't want to pay the studio time because he didn't get the mix that he wants. WTF?

[spilledmilk]

aray 

[badongrodrigs]

we always do that  hehehe thats because the our sound engineer is also our producer hehehe

[spilledmilk]

well kahit balibaligtarin pa...its still a no no...lalo na if the client has a specific sound in mind.

[skunkyfunk]

aray 

HINDI KAYO TINUTUKOY KO HEHEHE.

[skunkyfunk]

we always do that  hehehe thats because the our sound engineer is also our producer hehehe

While the producer is responsible for sifting everything that goes to disc, I still think artists should be responsible enough to have critical input during the mixing stage.  Because that way, any conflicts between band members' minds are eliminated, or at least minimized.

[spilledmilk]

"any conflicts between band members' minds are eliminated, or at least minimized."

i like that hehehe.

isa pa...mixing kasi is one of the final stages bago dumating sa kamay ng listener yung finished product...i think dapat may "final touch" din ung artist mismo...PLUS...mixing is quite an educational experience

[badongrodrigs]

we always do that  hehehe thats because the our sound engineer is also our producer hehehe

While the producer is responsible for sifting everything that goes to disc, I still think artists should be responsible enough to have critical input during the mixing stage.  Because that way, any conflicts between band members' minds are eliminated, or at least minimized.

well, we do the next best thing. after tracking a few songs, he does what he wants to happen, then sends us the wav file, and asks us for inputs. then the next time we're in the studio to track the next songs, we tell him what we want to happen to the previous mix etc etc

so there is compromise. but in any case, there will always be a final mixing session before compiling everything.

[vaisteen2003]

"any conflicts between band members' minds are eliminated, or at least minimized."

i like that hehehe.

isa pa...mixing kasi is one of the final stages bago dumating sa kamay ng listener yung finished product...i think dapat may "final touch" din ung artist mismo...PLUS...mixing is quite an educational experience

resolder ung mixing board. lol

on a serious note, dpat set lang ung expectations ng artist na it will be mixed according to the ears of the engineer now if you want to sound like how the artist want it then i guess they have to be there. its an indirect way of saying "YOU NEED TO BE HERE WHEN WE MIX" para masaya lahat.

[inigo]

I'd say it's your fault for accepting his terms without a caveat

Pero the next time, if I were you, dein ko na siya iaaccept under the same terms.

[starfugger]

skunk i understand where youre coming from.  a solution i can propose is that you mix the song half way or 3/4 of the way through, leave about an hour or two before rendering the file.  these last couple of hours should be spent WITH the client, so that minor changes and automation can be performe in his presence.  this way the mix grows on him, and in part, becomes HIS idea.  this would probably make the mix easier for clients to digest.

i also agree with inigo.  in my case, i never make claims that i can replicate a certain mix (not that im saying you do). rather the reference cd is only used as a guide.  i make sure that my clients understand that these reference cd's they usually leave with me were created with better equipment, bigger budget, and yes, much much more seasoned engineers.

[astrobog]

Importante diyan, relationship between engineer and clients, at trust.
halos lahat na project na ginagawa ko, after tracking ako lang muna magmix, minsan mas ok din walang client habang nagmimix, relax at walang pressure.. sa tagal na tracking session, habang nagrerecord kasama mo clients, may mga inputs sila at may input din ako, nag-uusap naman kami habang nagrerecord. nararamdam ko rin kung ano ang gusto nila. siyempre after ng pre-mix ko, may mixing session din kasama clients, pero konti na lang aayosin.
at kung may reference cd sila, mas ok pakinggan mo before tracking or before magstart ng project, para alam mo na ang tunog na hinahanap nila, mahirap mag-ayos ng tunog after tracking e...
sorry skunky, medyo bulol ako magtagalog... 

shinji

[skunkyfunk]

Importante diyan, relationship between engineer and clients, at trust.
halos lahat na project na ginagawa ko, after tracking ako lang muna magmix, minsan mas ok din walang client habang nagmimix, relax at walang pressure.. sa tagal na tracking session, habang nagrerecord kasama mo clients, may mga inputs sila at may input din ako, nag-uusap naman kami habang nagrerecord. nararamdam ko rin kung ano ang gusto nila. siyempre after ng pre-mix ko, may mixing session din kasama clients, pero konti na lang aayosin.
at kung may reference cd sila, mas ok pakinggan mo before tracking or before magstart ng project, para alam mo na ang tunog na hinahanap nila, mahirap mag-ayos ng tunog after tracking e...
sorry skunky, medyo bulol ako magtagalog... 

shinji

Sir, ok lang maging bulol kung ganyan naman ang gamit niyo sa studio. 

[skunkyfunk]

i also agree with inigo.  in my case, i never make claims that i can replicate a certain mix (not that im saying you do). rather the reference cd is only used as a guide.  i make sure that my clients understand that these reference cd's they usually leave with me were created with better equipment, bigger budget, and yes, much much more seasoned engineers.

Well, I would also bet my ass off that any existing multitrack recording of a classic hit song will sound different if mixed TODAY.  Case in point:  Megadeth's Remastered albums (especially Rust In Peace where Dave did some vocal overdubs.  )

Hence, when someone comes to me and brings a multi-million dollar production CD, I do my best to fake my way to get there...   But of course, as always, the real idiots are those who think that their half-assed talent can be covered up by post-production.

[starfugger]

Importante diyan, relationship between engineer and clients, at trust.
halos lahat na project na ginagawa ko, after tracking ako lang muna magmix, minsan mas ok din walang client habang nagmimix, relax at walang pressure.. sa tagal na tracking session, habang nagrerecord kasama mo clients, may mga inputs sila at may input din ako, nag-uusap naman kami habang nagrerecord. nararamdam ko rin kung ano ang gusto nila. siyempre after ng pre-mix ko, may mixing session din kasama clients, pero konti na lang aayosin.
at kung may reference cd sila, mas ok pakinggan mo before tracking or before magstart ng project, para alam mo na ang tunog na hinahanap nila, mahirap mag-ayos ng tunog after tracking e...
sorry skunky, medyo bulol ako magtagalog... 

shinji

true.  it's also easier for me to mix without the clients. minsan kasi counterproductive to have them there while you're in the preliminary stages of mixing.  some clients can't wait.  they want this and that right away and sometimes make you want to say "yes we'll get there in a few".  ako din, i also listen to the references before tracking, especially the guitar tracks.  

[xjepoyx]

The last client we had... out of town ako during tracking so i have no idea how they really want the song mixed, We just communicated thru sms and celfone calls kung ano gusto nila. Muntik pa ngang di magbayad ng downpayment kasi wala ako nung nasa studio sila coz sammy (my rec engr that time) called me up and told me na they'll pay na lang after mixing ... syempre di ako pumayag . So pagdating ko from bora... pinahatid ko dito sa house yung hard drive then minix ko lang based sa napagusapan namin thru sms. Kinabukasan, dumating na dito sa house yung drummer (band leader) to get the final mix and told me na its gonna be aired on a radio station as a theme song for a shipping company yung song. So... ayun i have to make some adjustments to compensate sa radio broadcast compressions. Then i gave the guy a copy for a CD release (if ever they'lll release it) and a Radio Edit Mix.


Its really a matter of trust and a good communication between client and engineer lang talaga... tama si shinji.

[abyssinianson]

i mostly mix in the absence of the client but most of the people I work with are quite familiar with how I mix and produce. any changes that I do after the main mixing session are usually tweaks to levels or EQs.

[skunkyfunk]

Maybe what I can agree to is making a middle-of-the-road type of mix when the client is not around, which shall be subject to tweaking in the final mix.  But most problems arise when artists become INDECISIVE or should I say, CONTROL FREAKS.  Sometimes an existing final mix sounds great but one day they'll take a few Vis pills and they'll text you, "F***, you need to remix!"

[starfugger]

Maybe what I can agree to is making a middle-of-the-road type of mix when the client is not around, which shall be subject to tweaking in the final mix.  But most problems arise when artists become INDECISIVE or should I say, CONTROL FREAKS.  Sometimes an existing final mix sounds great but one day they'll take a few Vis pills and they'll text you, "F***, you need to remix!"

reply: you need to pay me.

i have a service agreement in my site. when the client approves a mix, it's a done deal.  any more changes to the song and they need to make additional payment.

[skunkyfunk]

Maybe what I can agree to is making a middle-of-the-road type of mix when the client is not around, which shall be subject to tweaking in the final mix.  But most problems arise when artists become INDECISIVE or should I say, CONTROL FREAKS.  Sometimes an existing final mix sounds great but one day they'll take a few Vis pills and they'll text you, "F***, you need to remix!"

reply: you need to pay me.

i have a service agreement in my site. when the client approves a mix, it's a done deal.  any more changes to the song and they need to make additional payment.

So what if they reply, "That's why we let you mix without us around because we trusted YOUR judgments... We need a remix because we deem the output skewed with our direction..." 

[starfugger]

mahirap talaga yan skunk.  the problem with UNLIMITED mixing time (again) is that clients become complacent. 

ang solusyon dyan, remix ... with them in the studio.  i dont know kung anong naging usapan nyo ng client, but if its something the effect of "mix it till we're happy", then your hands are tied.  it's important to charge by the  hour or at least offer a package to the client so they dont abuse you.  this way they will get what they pay for, and in effect will value each hour and might even try to attend a session or two to make sure the project is going in the direction they desire. 

[skunkyfunk]

mahirap talaga yan skunk.  the problem with UNLIMITED mixing time (again) is that clients become complacent. 

ang solusyon dyan, remix ... with them in the studio.  i dont know kung anong naging usapan nyo ng client, but if its something the effect of "mix it till we're happy", then your hands are tied.  it's important to charge by the  hour or at least offer a package to the client so they dont abuse you.  this way they will get what they pay for, and in effect will value each hour and might even try to attend a session or two to make sure the project is going in the direction they desire. 

For the record, an hourly or limited-time basis is pretty much my standard now.  I gave up on the unlimited/"by the song 'til the mix is perfect" approach because of the susceptibility to client abuse. 

But in the case of mixing without the client around, it falls under a gray area.  You can log on to your studio and tell your client you spent 4 hours mixing a song, but that's irrelevant if they did not like the mix.  So your 4 studio hours go down the drain (especially if one paying client could have taken that slot.) 

Mixing should always be a collaborative effort.  Even producers (of bands particularly) are sensitive to this because to some extent, bands want to retain a holistic character to their sound, and how to compromise bandmembers' individual tonal characters is the most difficult thing.  And what I really hate most is when I ask a client, "ANO BA ANG MIX NA GUSTO NIYO?"  And they answer, "BASTA LITAW LAHAT."  <-- totally ambiguous.

[BALDO]

talagang nakakainis yang bibigyan ka ng " reference cd" ( i know hazel mahirap ipaliwanag sa client ito hehehe) na gusto nilang makuhang tunog. first thing na dapat nilang malaman ay product ito sa mga BIG production studios na multimillion dollars ang equipments na ginamit dito saka yung setup pa lang eh gumagastos na sila. case in point. yung drum sounds lang ng isang song ni whitney houston took 10 hrs to get the right drum sound. are they willing to spend that much?  .  also yung talents ba ng band eh kasing galing nung nasa cd? matinik ba ang arranger/ producer? sa tingin ko, kung maiisplika yang factors na yan magkaka intindihan ang band/producer at sound engr.  with regards to mixing without the client, i think Skunky tama si Hazel na kelangan me halfway point dapat na mag a agree kayo. let them hear your SUGGESTED mix and have their input doon sa iniisip nilang mix. after a few takes kung hindi pa din satisfied , you can tell them to go to h*ll hehehe.. but also dapat lang talaga yung TRUST like what astrobog said. kung wala yun, kahit na ano pa ang gawin mo para sa ikagaganda ng sound nila eh bale wala kung hindi ka nila pinagkakatiwalaan sa ginagawa mo.

[skunkyfunk]

case in point. yung drum sounds lang ng isang song ni whitney houston took 10 hrs to get the right drum sound.

Try Bob Rock spending a month to get the drum sounds right for Metallica's Black album.  It was a series of hit and miss. 

[abyssinianson]

case in point. yung drum sounds lang ng isang song ni whitney houston took 10 hrs to get the right drum sound.

Try Bob Rock spending a month to get the drum sounds right for Metallica's Black album.  It was a series of hit and miss. 

Yeah, but Bob Rock had a retainer as Metallica's producer for that album and he, in turn, had a manager of his own to work out the legal kinks. Jumping ship by either party would have been a serious breach of contract - enough grounds to sue, in my experience. I do not deal with as much legalities as I used to and I like it that way. When I started having a management group do my legal stuff for me, I just met with them a few times to discuss my ground level interests and to dictate how I think my affairs should be handled. Things were pretty easy from then on.