The SOUND SYSTEM RANT thread

[skunkyfunk]

I hope this thread becomes more of an open forum for sound reinforcement designers/providers so we know what artists need and want in a live setup. 

First few things that I commonly hear from artists/performers:

1.  Everyone needs adequate wedge monitors onstage.  Yes, be it indoor, and especially outdoor! 
2.  Vocal mics need compression.  Too much volume without compressors in the insert cause ridiculous feedback.  Lessening the volume just drowns out the vocals.
3.  Guitarists HATE DI BOXES IN FRONT OF THE AMP!  I mean, the classic PARA-OUT TO THE AMP/DI TO THE MIXER thing.  So when you use the amp's built-in OD, you're in trouble.
4.  BASS AMPS should be AT LEAST, 300W.  Using the DI helps, but bassists prefer an amp as a monitor as well.
5.  You have a drum kit?  I guess you should also provide a decent drum throne.  No more monoblocks please.
6.  ROUTING through the monitor speakers:  Please ask the artists what they prefer.  If a guitarist likes vocals and only vocals through his monitor, then give him that through the AUX or GROUP sending to his monitor.  If the drummer prefers a loud bass and vocal signal, please give him that too.
7.  Guitarists who sing at the same time like BOOM STANDS.
8.  Keyboardists prefer a keyboard amp, but if one is not available, at least give him a loud monitor.

 

[rakrakan]

ok yan, kaya lang totally depende sa...

1. artist

2. budget

3. budget



kaya masarap tumugtog sa 19East, dun lang talaga meron super decent sound system - FOH, monitor and backline...

[x_taxi]

i still remember this one college gig in UP before.  was the only band openin for the e-heads.  everything wasn't even setup when we played.  walang lumalabas sa monitors, so can you imagine how i did my leads!?  haha.  parang kami tuloy ang nag-sound check para sa kanila.

but we didn't care at all, everyone was so drunk and havin fun.  me?  i was just happy to be wailin on stage.  i stopped playin after college though.  everyone got normal jobs.

 

[abyssinianson]

sounds like the people manning your sound systems don't know their stuff. in my experience, the promoter and event organizers should have a good working knowledge of what a good PA system will require to make sure a live event goes without too many headaches. moreover, your qualms in the rant sound like concerns having to do with working on a budget. now, I don't know what deals you are getting but it would seem to me that you would - at least - know what you are getting when you are booking a live sound guy and set of PA equipment - otherwise, you wouldn't have those concerns which could be avoided had your promoter took care of you more as a performer.

granted, i've had my share of awful gigs - especially DJ gigs - where the monitors didn't work, there were no monitors, the booth smelled like piss and puke, there were drunk people looking to pick a fight...etc...etc...

[skunkyfunk]

sounds like the people manning your sound systems don't know their stuff. in my experience, the promoter and event organizers should have a good working knowledge of what a good PA system will require to make sure a live event goes without too many headaches. moreover, your qualms in the rant sound like concerns having to do with working on a budget. now, I don't know what deals you are getting but it would seem to me that you would - at least - know what you are getting when you are booking a live sound guy and set of PA equipment - otherwise, you wouldn't have those concerns which could be avoided had your promoter took care of you more as a performer.

granted, i've had my share of awful gigs - especially DJ gigs - where the monitors didn't work, there were no monitors, the booth smelled like piss and puke, there were drunk people looking to pick a fight...etc...etc...

Another thing about artists... it would be best to make a very comprehensive TECHNICAL RIDER.  That in a way can help show promoters find the sound system providers perfect for them. 

Check out this rider for KITCHIE NADAL as an example:

http://www.kitchienadal.com/technical.htm

[IncX]

this is all well and good as long as the gig is bound to make money.

if you are an artist who has a mainstream hit, its natural that you can demand certain specifications (like that kitchie website, which i think is very cool)... but if you are in a band with awesome musicians, who know their techniques, who write good songs, etc., but dont dont make money ... it would be crazy spending for those sound requirments.

it really all boils down to budget... if you have a million dollar business that runs itself, and you decide on a music club business venture, it would be good. you dont mind losing money cause, hey, it is to be expected. hobbies take away money, but give satisfaction in return.

i love all your suggestions skunky... id even settle for half or 1/4 of the quality of the stuff you suggested, because all the gigs i played were so bad, that my best gig could probably be any of your worst *lol* BUT, i am also realisitic. and i sorta expect to sound like crap when i hit the stage, but if the audience is happy and they love us... that is satisfaction for me. doesnt matter if my bass sounded like some distorted guitar thru an octaver. although dont get me wrong, doesnt mean i love bad gear, i guess its just complaining about how terrible the stage gear was and how many mistakes we made is part of the laughter and fun we discuss after every gig.

i apologize if i was OT... i guess i just had to post this after i saw the topic.

-*-

i guess just to NOT BE COMPLETELY OT, here are some things that would make a "non money making" musician like me happy:

1.) 500 watt PA system and one of those real mixer things, not some home made box with knobs on it.

2.) a couple of 75-100 watt solid state guitar amps, preferably with 2x12 speakers.

3.) a 250 watt Bass amp that doesnt distort. so i guess karaoke components are out of the equation.

4.) 3 monitors ... 200 watts perhaps... i dont know. ive never played a show that had monitors in it.

5.) mic stand that doesnt fall over.

6.) vocal mics that work

7.) 2 cymbals, 1 ride and hi hats (of course) that is not lazer or made in china - crafted in raon.

8.) decent condition snare and bass pedals that lock on to the bass drum.

9.) a carpet that would prevent the drum from slipping.

10.) cables that dont need to be resoldered.

i guess i have pretty shallow requirements... it explains the state of the equipment i have played on *lol*

[x_taxi]

granted, i've had my share of awful gigs - especially DJ gigs - where the monitors didn't work, there were no monitors, the booth smelled like piss and puke, there were drunk people looking to pick a fight...etc...etc...

i actually had a better time dj-ing than playing in a band.  used to have a small club in malate late nineties.  it was the emergence of the house scene here in manila.  but i guess it was more of the fact that i had control over the actual setup which didn't move at all, as opposed to live concert venues.  it was my biz partner doin all the sound reinforcement.

d@mn, those parties were wild though!  again, i was just so happy to be spinnin.  sold off the bar cause the whole malate scene got saturated.  there was actually a happy taker at the time.

 

[skunkyfunk]

Side note:

Are line-arrays much better for dispersion?

[tackielarla]

Another thing about artists... it would be best to make a very comprehensive TECHNICAL RIDER.  That in a way can help show promoters find the sound system providers perfect for them. 

Check out this rider for KITCHIE NADAL as an example:

http://www.kitchienadal.com/technical.htm

Just checked out Kitchie's tech rider pag and wow! Somebody actually provides for all of those specs? Amazing.

[mikep]

Side note:
Are line-arrays much better for dispersion?

Better dispersion, yes, since their horizontal spread is wider than usual, while the vertical throw is narrow.  They are are similar to the columnar type of speakers used in churches.  But they are not the cure all solutions.  Each type of speaker system fits a particular purpose and line arrays are just one of them.    You have to examine what the needs are carefully , then suggest a design or system to suit the requirements.  And line arrays maybe the answer.

FWIW

[Tarkuz Toccata]

Check out this rider for KITCHIE NADAL as an example:

http://www.kitchienadal.com/technical.htm

a few comments:

INSTRUMENT CABLES

20’ unbalanced cable/PL 3 units -- this is okay
30’- 50’ unbalanced cable 3 units -- this should be balanced cable

musicians should bring their own instrument cables.

PA SYSTEM REQUIREMENTS

The PA system must be sufficient enough to provide a loud & clear Stereo sound for the venue; -- 100-110 db desired loudness (live music) + 10 dB headroom. it should achieve ą3 dB even coverage and 40Hz-18kHz smooth frequency response.

*At least 8000 watts 4 Small Venues (e.g. Clubs, Enclosed Gymnasiums, Theatres) & At least 10,000 watts 4 big venues. -- number of watts (system power required) alone is meaningless

For every 2 pairs of Mid / Hi Speakers. There should be a pair of Subwoofers. To be assigned through an available Aux. Send then to a crossover going to it’s respective amps. -- mid/hi to sub ratio alone is meaningless

outdoor sound reinforcement?

MONITOR MIXES

Note:
All monitor mixes should pass through it’s own independent 31 band Equalizer, -- this is very important!
Then through it’s respective Power Amps.

picky, picky? -- sorry! 

[abyssinianson]

Another thing about artists... it would be best to make a very comprehensive TECHNICAL RIDER.  That in a way can help show promoters find the sound system providers perfect for them. 

Check out this rider for KITCHIE NADAL as an example:

http://www.kitchienadal.com/technical.htm

Tarcuz, her rider does sound picky but i guess technical riders can vary and while her PA requirements are pretty decent for a large venue like the Folk Arts, it might be a hassle for a local promoter to procur all those details just to get her to perform. For example, in the US, when you play a club - any reputable club - that gets a good share of gigging acts, it usually has a pretty good in-house PA system. This is a given if you want to make money as a venue. Bigger places like the House of Blues, Trobadour, The Metro...etc...which all have pretty big acts going through them all the time usually have a really good PA system, however, all bands still need to bring their own equipment whether you are a lowly local band or national/ international touring act. Instruments and miscellaneous items that the artist needs to produce their sound is their responsibility - not the club's. So, if you want to have a Mesa Rectifier sound supplemented by a massive Eden or Ampeg bass tone - you'd better have the gear yourself otherwise you are sh*t of luck and no one would care if you wrote up a detailed rider like Kitchie Nadal's. 

The bottom line here is working with a budget. I have no doubt that someone, somewhere in the Phils can provide all the things you want at a live gig but, man, you gotta pay. Unless you are an act that can bring in as much as money as all the fuss your rider generates - you'd better be worth all the hassle or be willing to pay for it out of your own budget just to make things happen the way you want it.

@x_taxi: I was DJing around the end of the 80's/ early 90s when the warehouse  rave and house era hit its peak. Back in the day, people popularly did guerilla style raves and most of the venues were kept secret until a few days before the gig so that even the DJ didn't know its location. This carried a bit of thrill, of course, but the downside was you never knew what environment you could spin under. I only ever had control over my setup at the local clubs or whenever I would travel to spin and even then, the "popular" clubs sometimes had bad sketchy gear because it was used and abused so much.

Wildest and best gigs? Anything on or close to Ibiza - hands down.

[superwup]

Every soundsystem is as good as itīs operator.............
 

[x_taxi]

Wildest and best gigs? Anything on or close to Ibiza - hands down.

you've played in ibiza?  that's so kewl man.  the closest i've been to ibiza were all those compilation cds.  haha.

if there's one thing i hated, it's those pioneer cdj's.  couldn't never mix on those things right.  there's something bout the feel that put me off, that i'd just crossfade.  haha.  i still remember learning spinning those records.  sometimes the song would end before i mixed in the next one, and those remixes are long man, like 8-10mins.  the club would get silent, then everyone would look at the dj's booth, wonderin what the hell was happenin.  and i'd just throw my hands up and shout whoooo!  then mix in the next track.  haha.

 

[in_the_tent]

i remembered playing keys at Folk Arts. ganda ng sound system pati monitors.. mga JBL SRX. rinig na rinig ko lahat pwera keyboard ko. ilang beses kong sinabihan yung tech dun. ngumingiti lang.. natapos ang concert wala akong narinig.

[Tarkuz Toccata]

*At least 8000 watts 4 Small Venues (e.g. Clubs, Enclosed Gymnasiums, Theatres) & At least 10,000 watts 4 big venues.

If you increase power from 8000 watts to 16,000 watts (double), this will make the sound level louder by 3 dB.

However, increase of power from 8000 watts to 10,000 watts can make the sound level louder by 1 dB only. This difference in level is insignificant. Crazy! 

[abyssinianson]

you've played in ibiza?  that's so kewl man.  the closest i've been to ibiza were all those compilation cds.  haha.

if there's one thing i hated, it's those pioneer cdj's.  couldn't never mix on those things right.  there's something bout the feel that put me off, that i'd just crossfade.  haha.  i still remember learning spinning those records.  sometimes the song would end before i mixed in the next one, and those remixes are long man, like 8-10mins.  the club would get silent, then everyone would look at the dj's booth, wonderin what the hell was happenin.  and i'd just throw my hands up and shout whoooo!  then mix in the next track.  haha.

 

yup..i played at Pacha and Amnesia. it was a fine time and I was very lucky to get the opportunity.

I hate CDJs as well because they don't have the feel of vinyl records which are what I learned to mix on..however, the CD decks have gotten better over the years and even the Numark and Stanton decks are pretty decent. Still, I prefer using Final Scratch over CDs though...its that vinyl tactile feeling that I just can't get over.

[x_taxi]

true!  vinyl's still the way to go.  basta wag lang kabayo mix.  haha.

 

[abyssinianson]

true!  vinyl's still the way to go.  basta wag lang kabayo mix.  haha.

 

you mean "trainwrecking?" it happens to me every so often especially when I do long blends which is what I like to do on mixes...the problem is, when you try and mix genres you sometimes end up trainwrecking because a prog house track doesnt mesh well with that awesome downtempo DnB track you just picked up.

[x_taxi]

i enjoy doin those long blends when you just mix two long remixes.  works with trance or house.  but jungle or triphop?  it gives me headaches just gettin the beats right.  so crossfade na lang.  haha.

but one thing though that i enjoy the most is doin the buildup.  it's like makin a story with an intro, peak and an end.  very interestin while it lasted.

 

[markthevirtuoso]

If you increase power from 8000 watts to 16,000 watts (double), this will make the sound level louder by 3 dB.

However, increase of power from 8000 watts to 10,000 watts can make the sound level louder by 1 dB only. This difference in level is insignificant. Crazy! 

+1 Nagtataka nga rin ako dito eh. 

[superwup]

And thatīs why most "soundengineers" pump up the bass, so it seems to be loud because thatīs what the band is asking for.
The bass is the most easy one to make louder ( Listen to the car stereo`s, all you here is bass when they pass by, just to impress people)
For me personally i care more for mid and high because most of the bandinstruments and vocals are between the 500 and 5000 hertz, if i can not hear the keyboard, guitars and specially vocals during a concert then i donīt like the concert.

[markthevirtuoso]

And thatīs why most "soundengineers" pump up the bass, so it seems to be loud because thatīs what the band is asking for.
The bass is the most easy one to make louder ( Listen to the car stereo`s, all you here is bass when they pass by, just to impress people)
For me personally i care more for mid and high because most of the bandinstruments and vocals are between the 500 and 5000 hertz, if i can not hear the keyboard, guitars and specially vocals during a concert then i donīt like the concert.

Actually, the mid spectrum is easier to be made "louder", this is because of the nature in which our ears generally perceive the audio spectrum - our ears our more sensitive in hearing the mids than any other frequency. This can be attributed to the study of phon by Fletcher and Munson.

On the other hand, the reason why you would hear more of the bass coming from a car stereo (if you are on the outside) is because low frequencies, due to the nature of their waveform, can penetrate on walls and even bend on surfaces to the point that they are perceived to be "non-directional". The other frequencies, however, do not have that characteristic. Thus, these other frequencies are being blocked by the "walls" of the car, leaving only the bass to be heard from someone outside the sound source.

Also, although some frequencies, such as the low (20Hz-100Hz) and high (10kHz-12kHz) extremes, cannot be heard as apparent as the others, engineers would normally utilize them to add an effect that is rather "felt" than "heard". "Thump" and "Air" are commonly achieved by tweaking in this spectrum.

[superwup]

What i "mean" to say Mark is that most soundsystems "concentrate" on a big bass because you "feel" that but donīt realise that what is important for a band is the more "hearable" frequenses.
If you look in a "pimp my ride car" the "boombox" is 10 times bigger then the midhigh speaker usually because they like to let you hear the bass because itīt the most impressive sound when they show of their soundsystem. ( When you sit in the car also the bass is way to loud if you compare the bass with mid and high section)
Maybe they like that "sound", i donīt.......
To many times my hearing is spoiled by "soundsystems" with a way to loud bass if you compare with the mid high section, ask Marving what happened during his last Martin Nievera concert..............
Pump up the bass.................
 

[markthevirtuoso]

What i "mean" to say Mark is that most soundsystems "concentrate" on a big bass because you "feel" that but donīt realise that what is important for a band is the more "hearable" frequenses.
If you look in a "pimp my ride car" the "boombox" is 10 times bigger then the midhigh speaker usually because they like to let you hear the bass because itīt the most impressive sound when they show of their soundsystem. ( When you sit in the car also the bass is way to loud if you compare the bass with mid and high section)
Maybe they like that "sound", i donīt.......
To many times my hearing is spoiled by "soundsystems" with a way to loud bass if you compare with the mid high section, ask Marving what happened during his last Martin Nievera concert..............
Pump up the bass.................
 

Ah alright. Sorry, i misread the context of your post.