Why I think we're left behind in the world of recording...

[abyssinianson]

+1 on the RNC's and RNP's - have to buy me one of those sometime. Heard good things about the Distressor too. Hey, abyss! Any word on the Grace Audio 101s?

I unfortunately passed on them, Kit. I went with an Avalon 2022 stereo pre instead since I couldn't pick up the Grace 101 pair which was what I originally wanted. I intended to use the pres for stereo mic recordings with a pair of Shure SM81s. I ran into a closeout of a last-stock 2022 that I got a deal on since the sales guy was willing to let it go for much, much less than what they normally go for on the street.

Those Grace's were priced really well though and they were a great deal. Like the RNP's they are very, very clean sounding and you have to do very little Eqing to get them to sound well going into the DAW.

RNP's and RNC's are an unbelievable deal as far as performance to price ratio. The unassuming packaging on these things make them very easy to overlook but they are a favorite of a lot of project studios.

[KitC]

Ahhh... Avalon O:)

Next thing you're gonna tell me, you got Manley stuff. Their Gold Reference is to die for.

[jplacson]

While I used to believe "It is not the arrow but the Indian", after my trip, after witnessing what world-class standards mean in the realm of recording, now I believe, "A skilled Indian can never win in a duel with an amateur gunman." And rightly so, I think we Pinoys are stuck in a dilemma.  No budget for recordings, hence, studios don't wanna invest in world-class equipment.  

Hi people!  New member here.  Just wanted to chime in.  Although I see where you're coming from, I still have to disagree... even with your analogy, I'd be more afraid of a Phil Team archer at 100ft, than some security guard who has never fired a gun in his life pointing a 22 at me.  And personally, in a stand off, I'd bet the archer would have a killing shot, and the unskilled gunman wouldn't hit a thing.

What I have noticed in local recording is that people want to save... naturally.  Everyone wants to get the most out of their money.  But what people here don't realize is that they aren't saving by building their own "home studios" using crappy stuff... SB Audigy... home PCs... I don't care how much f**in RAM you have.  Your music doesn't care either.  You're not playing WoW.  Instead of buying "budget" junk (Anything that says "good for gaming" on the specs is JUNK...period) why not support the good studios?  A stupid SB Audigy goes for at least 2-3k... 1GB RAM is like 6-7k... instead of spending on that... and thinking it's a studio... spend that money in a real studio.  You'll get much better results and you can now concentrate on doing what you do best... MAKING MUSIC (that is what this is all about right?  Last I checked, no one bought *or downloaded* a song based on the kind of microphone they were using)

Remember that recording is just that... recording.  If your venue sounds like crap... your $5000 mic will record just that, crap... in pristine quality! Hahahaha.

It's also this mentality that has spawned so many so-called studios running regular PCs using just the line-in jack... so 'impressive' looking 24 channel mixer (with only 1 mic plugged in *wtf are you mixing???*) and charging low rates of P300-P500/hour.

Recording (good recording anyway) is also an art... and you need passion to do it well.  You can't just ask "which is the best and cheapest I should buy" and expect excellent results.  That's like asking "What key should I compose in so that I'll have a number 1 hit?"

World class studios here in the Phil?  There are a lot... Hit, Tracks, Ad Farm, sound design...BigFoot has the best sound stage I've seen locally, and a TDM system on the way (It wasn't there when I visited their facilty last year though)  But local bands dont support them... cuz they're expensive.  But I can tell you, spending P12K in these studios will make you sound so much better than spending P12K to upgrade your AMD WoW machine at home to do "budget recordings".  Obviously, on a tight budget you won't have much studio time... but that's why it's called hard work... rehearse well outside the studio... plan studio time well... master all your parts... walk in... record... work with the engineer (he can't read minds ya know) with the sound you're after... and it'll be worth it.

We have excellent engineers here... but no one supports them outside the advertising industry.  Everyone wants to "DIY" and build a home studio "para mura"... well, you get what you pay for.  Instead of buying half baked gear... spend it on studio time.  You'll HEAR the difference.  (We're still insterested in music right?)

We have to support the industry if we want better studios, engineers, techs...etc.

Pinoys are also notorious for being whiney (we love to complain)... if you can't suggest a REALISTIC improvement..shut up.  In a studio that charges P300-500/hour, don't give stupid comments like "You should get a Neve amp, and Neumann mics...  If you give comments like that, I can direct you to excellent studios here in the country ... but are you willing to pay?  If you go to these studios, expect to spend more time working hands on the material itself... getting the miking right... try to avoid EQing on the board, that should be a last resort.

**On the topic of Protools.  Protools is oriented towards recording.  Not sampling.  Cubase (Reason and others) are 'electronica' tools.  MIDI, samples, etc.  These are more for the "one man musician".  DJs and the like.  A recording studio should do just that... record instruments/vocals.  Not 'generate' them.  Protools is for BANDS.  Not composers (well, of course it can be used for it... but there are better solutions out there)  The collaborative network of Protools (M, LE, and TDM) is unmatched for recording musicians.  Whichever version you use, files are cross compatible (you lose data going from a TDM to LE/M, it helps for rough cuts, but you shouldn't do that for final mixing/mastering anyway)

For "all around" uses... either one CAN work well... but music is very personal and specialized.  You can't have an all-in-one studio... well, you can... but it won't be great.  Real Home Studios (like the one of Moby) are highly tuned to just his style of music... so he doesn't bother with gear he doesn't need or use in his music.

I have nothing against setting up your own home studio... it's great for recording ideas, quick fixes, etc.... but if you intend to spend anything over 5k just to "upgrade" your WoW PC to be a "real" studio, don't bother... go to a real studio.

But if you're just looking for an excuse to bump up your RAM to 2GB, buy a new LCD (wtf does that have to do with your sound??) and a new Audigy/Extigy (again, wtf does that have to do with your sound??? hahahaha) so you can play WoW better... well, go ahead.

For those of you SERIOUS about starting a good home studio (whether it be for personal use, or for your band) this is a good website to start off with.

http://digitalmedia.oreilly.com/pub/a/oreilly/digitalmedia/2005/06/29/portable1.html

Personally, anything less than an MBOX... I'd rather it be spent in a good studio.  A stupid extigy is over P10k... wtf is that?!??!  That's about 10 hours in a really good studio, and you'll get 100x better recording... but then, you can't play WoW in a good studio... well... like I said, whatever is important to you.

**Sorry if I got a bit violent, I'm just frustrated when I see people suckered into buying these "budget" things when it could be spent in a better way.  Parang I feel bad cuz I feel these (computer stores) are just cashing in on these cheap mktg tactics... and since we're not overflowing with money, I feel bad that people here aren't getting their money's worth simply because they're made to believe that these budget things will magically give them the equivalent of something that costs 100x more... then after... sayang lang, cuz it's the music that ends up suffering.  And our local music industry can't grow because of all the false information floating around with regards to "home studios", and how much you can "save"... you're not "saving" if your not achieving your desired goal.

[jplacson]

Some classics were done to 4-track. We shouldn't always let the newest, shiniest, brightest gear blind us to the fact that a good song is what makes a classic. Mastering is the real secret. You can have the latest and the greatest gear, but even that won't polish a turd.

I agree!  And to add... just cuz you have the gear, doesn't mean you can master audio.  Be willing to hire a good mastering guy/gal.  That's the only way our industry can start to grow.  If someone is good at something, reward them by patronizing their craft... don't think that having Sonar installed, running an Audigy with JBL computer speakers will allow you to master at home, just to save.

[skunkyfunk]

Question. If you wanted to produce some hiphop album, would you bother going to a studio?  Don't tell me that [gooey brown stuff]/images]Dr. Dre's Studio[/url] can do same with a home PC with a bunch of pirated software and/or an mBox for such a project.  

Musicians resort to home recording with the false sense of security of "having more control over the music."  But then, the DIY people fail to look at other parts of the signal path, including mic preamps, converters, monitor speakers, etc.  But going to a "pro studio" isn't the real solution either.  Do you think Angee Rozul is happy with all his works at Tracks?  Hell no!  Ginagawa lang palamuti sa albums ng ibang artist ang pangalan niya.  Because of the principle of GIGO, you can never be so sure that a high-end studio can do wonders.  So if a band sounds like crap, with crappy instruments, even if they use your Neumanns and Studer 2" machine they'll sound like crap.

Anyway, my whole point is that the main reason why we are stuck in a rut is because we need larger production budgets, which can only be realized by having a larger target market.

[jplacson]

skunky... yup yup...

my thing is, home studios like Dr Dre's, Moby, and even Van Halen (technically 5150 is a "home studio") don't count... since they are full studios, located in the home of the artist.

I'm talking about the DIY guys that, like you said, feel they have more control over their sound.

I bring the MBOX up because it's decent.  It's not the greatest thing since the invention of the microphone... (I personally prefer M-Audio's FW interfaces better) but to profess "budget" stuff that provides decent audio files to work with... I wouldn't reco anything lower.

If someone intent on building a "home studio" can't afford even an MBOX, then I'd seriously reco just spending hard earned money in a real studio that has invested time, money, and effort into building something good.

There is no target market because everyone thinks a Duo-Core with an Audigy is "good enough"... it's not.  Go to a studio.

An MBOX is great if you wanna record a riff or something in the middle of the night... (assuming you have a half way decent mic and a quiet room) then bring that file over to a bigger TDM system to finish off.

I'm not gonna invest in pre-amps and all... if a studio near me already has them and more.  I'll go there, rent studio time, support their business and encourage them to improve and upgrade as time goes by.  That way, you're actually helping the industry.

Now, if someone has something different to offer, then partner up with a local studio so they don't have to invest in newer stuff, then can throw business their way... then that helps the industry as a whole as well.  Studios that have the gear, but no engineers can offer work time.  People with space but no gear can offer room time... People with gear but no room can rent gear out to studios with no gear... etc..etc.

[abyssinianson]

Ahhh... Avalon O:)

Next thing you're gonna tell me, you got Manley stuff. Their Gold Reference is to die for.

Hahah - nah, no manley stuff for me. They are great though. I just have and get what I need. The UAD is enough for any EQing and working on sounds as it is. I keep my outboard stuff to a minimum.

[abyssinianson]

Some classics were done to 4-track. We shouldn't always let the newest, shiniest, brightest gear blind us to the fact that a good song is what makes a classic. Mastering is the real secret. You can have the latest and the greatest gear, but even that won't polish a turd.

I agree!  And to add... just cuz you have the gear, doesn't mean you can master audio.  Be willing to hire a good mastering guy/gal.  That's the only way our industry can start to grow.  If someone is good at something, reward them by patronizing their craft... don't think that having Sonar installed, running an Audigy with JBL computer speakers will allow you to master at home, just to save.

Yep....mastering is s specialized art that requires a different set of gear and a specific environment to do work in.

[KitC]

A lot of us forget that gear ain't worth squat if you don't have the EAR for this art. It's one thing to look at spectrum analyzers and flat frequency response curves. But music is a hearing art.

So what if some peeps prefer to start out with a soundblaster? Better than nothing, but one must recognize the limitations of one's gear. I remember a couple of years ago in a Future Music cd where a couple of kids, using tracker software and AWE64 for Christ sakes, submitted a track that was so awesome that even some UK pros took notice. Gear does not make the musician; the real artist uses what he's got and he uses it good.

So what if there are a lot of DIY'ers making by with a cheap pc and cheap software, or even crappy gear by upper nose standards? Jeez, at the very least, those of us with the knowledge should point the ones who are willing to learn this difficult craft in the right direction. We should encourage experimentation and at the same time advise others to exercise caution especially when we know their experimentation will be lead them to a train wreck.

[abyssinianson]

i agree with Kit. The guidance that peopl get to accomplish music under the limitations of their music is what counts above all else. You don't "need" upper end equipment but if you do become a serious hobbyist then, outgrowing your gear - provided you have exploited your gear in every which way - is very much a reality.

When I first started, I didn't deal much with amplification and recording audio. As a result, I didn't have a working knowledge of how important items in your signal chain really are! When I began recording - BAM - not only did I learn, painfully, the limitations of my equipment, I also got introduced to just how much sound - good sound - CAN cost. This way of thinking is synonymous with the fact that good gear will take you quite far if you learn how to use it, and because it is durable, you can learn from it for a long time. However, cheap gear may and will fall apart on you if you try and run it as much as pro-level or even semi-pro level gear. The make of specific items that one uses in the studio relies heavily on workmanship because the repetitive nature of music production requiresa lot of listening again, and again, and again.........

[drummer10630]

Yes of course high end gear can be helpful, but what I find is that so called "producers" can't envision or dont have a grasp of what good audio or a good mix SOUNDS like. There have been good sounding recordings for 50 years or more, and they didn't have anywhere near the technology that is available to us today. So how did they do it? Basically, they experimented until it SOUNDED GOOD. Don't get caught up in the tools for music and recording, your BEST tools are your ears and your imagination.

I'm just a drummer that learned how to run sound by learning on stage monitor mixing (as monitor engineers were killing my ears). From there I went on to FOH mixing and studio recording. I didn't take ANY formal classes, I just listened and turned the knobs until things sounded right. AND ASKED A LOT OF QUESTIONS. Since then I went on to mix and/or record such bands as Mr Big, Niacin, Bobby Caldwell, and many more. And trust me, I didn't get those gigs because I am some sort of genius. I got them because I can make bands sound good. PERIOD.

You usually can't get a good drum sound by using Export or student model drums and cheap bargain priced cymbals. HOWEVER, you can MAKE those low end drums sound good, if you know what pro drums sound like. That's the key. There are plenty of resources out there for your own training. Like about 1,000,000 vinyl records and CDs. If you try to duplicate the sound of those recordings, you will eventually succeed. And I don't care what expensive equipment you buy or use, if you can't grasp the SOUND of great audio and music, you're not going to get it on your recording.

Once I spoke with Nick Venet (Capitol Records/Beach Boys), he told me how they used umbrellas over the drums, taped down sustain pedals of upright pianos and lots of tips to try that he learned by experimenting in the studio. Bob Dennis (mastering engineer at Holland Dozier Holland  studios and almost every Motown record) showed me how they moved WALLS back and forth to get great reverb sounds. What they lacked in gear, they made up for in creativity. For goodness sakes, Sgt. Pepper (Beatles) was recorded with mono, stereo and 4 track machines.

There are about a zillion interviews out there on the internet with successful producers and engineers. Good place to start I think...

[KitC]

@drummer10630: I see you've worked with Edgar Winter... care to share any amusing anecdotes?

@pinoymusika - Haven't been to ZL's Tweak Studios yet. After a short visit to Tracks, Pink Noise and Roadrunner, I seem to have settled into post prod as well as my own little project studio setup.

[pinoymusika]

I'm just a drummer that learned how to run sound by learning on stage monitor mixing (as monitor engineers were killing my ears). From there I went on to FOH mixing and studio recording. I didn't take ANY formal classes, I just listened and turned the knobs until things sounded right. AND ASKED A LOT OF QUESTIONS. Since then I went on to mix and/or record such bands as Mr Big, Niacin, Bobby Caldwell, and many more. And trust me, I didn't get those gigs because I am some sort of genius. I got them because I can make bands sound good. PERIOD.

From your description, you sound like that guy who used to play drums for Wally Gonzales.. interesting background. So you're in Angeles now? Is there a recording scene there as well? Plenty of clubs for gigging, I know...

[drummer10630]

@pinoymusika...yes that's me. Not much of a recording scene up here, but I haven't done much investigation either. Lots of talented players around though, and there's several live music clubs.

@kit...well drumming for Edgar was a blast, although I didn't play for him that long. One gig that was really cool was with two drummers. Tom Brechtlein and myself playing Frankenstein. Now that was fun. Edgar is one talented musician and a very kind person.

One other note, if you want to play drums, don't EVER tell people (much less demonstrate it to them) that you know how to run sound. You will have double duty on every gig from that moment forward, and of course for no extra pay...lol.

[pallas]

remember that album by the boss....NEBRASKA killer songwriting, organic sound and all those old albums being played on the gramophone. Its ironic how we have all this technology but we still strive to get that warmth, vibe, feel of oldness in the atmosphere.
We are pretty much left behind gearwise but if you know what you want know someone who knows his trade and couple it with talent/songwriting,
shrewd marketing..anything can happen.
Pass me a cassete tape will ya

[BAMF]

Some classics were done to 4-track. We shouldn't always let the newest, shiniest, brightest gear blind us to the fact that a good song is what makes a classic. Mastering is the real secret. You can have the latest and the greatest gear, but even that won't polish a turd.

I agree!  And to add... just cuz you have the gear, doesn't mean you can master audio.  Be willing to hire a good mastering guy/gal.  That's the only way our industry can start to grow.  If someone is good at something, reward them by patronizing their craft... don't think that having Sonar installed, running an Audigy with JBL computer speakers will allow you to master at home, just to save.

I agree and I don't agree .

Start building a DAW if you intend to go down that road for the long haul and have resolved to be even remotely good at the art. Start small, buy better stuff as you go and your ear matures . Maybe at some point when you've gathered enough experience, ear and gear, you can join KitC and abyssinianson and starfugger and Angee's ranks. Who knows ? After all, at the bottom line, it's not a cheap undertaking so one must be really resolved to go down that road. Or if one decides that one needs ultimate control over one's music in a money-no-object environment (e.g. Van Halen, Frank Gambale etc). Just like abyssinianson. Or if you want to have the ability to whip up a quick demo or some facility to commit and roughly execute your musical ideas.

But if just for one, two, three albums where quality and speed is of great concern...go pro. You'll get where you want to be much more quickly . Or if you've decided that you're more a musician than an engineer, go pro.

Like I said, everything has its place in the scheme of things .

[abyssinianson]

I agree with BAMF. Weigh your long term goals and ask yourself why you might want a studio because the cost is not cheap, and the skill investment requires a steep learning curve. As a guitarist starting out, I knew why I wanted to have a studio (to make demos) but I didn't anticipate loving working across genres so much that the long term return of building a studio for myself over the last 10 years has not been in vain. Needless to say, having a studio has worked out wonderful for me - however, had I known how much the gear/ quality ration would be, I would have been detered very easily.

Making tracks and mastering are two very different things. To this day, I stress taking tracks to a mastering studio because my gear and studio is incapable of properly mastering audio. Although I've worked with different music long enough, I just don't have the ear to be able to "finish" a track before it goes to the vinyl or CD pressing facility. As such, I leave the final work to those who do it best and mix with enough headroom for the mastering engineer to do his job properly.

Everyone has his/ her place in the grand scheme of things so, start small and learn what you have. You'd be surprised at the capabilities of gear these days...

[KitC]

Everyone has his/ her place in the grand scheme of things so, start small and learn what you have. You'd be surprised at the capabilities of gear these days...

I'll say... my first DAW/midi production studio was a Pentium 166 MMX with 64 mb and an AWE32. The lone midi port on that machine drove 2 keyboards while I put the serial port to good use on my MU80 module. Recording all 3 simultaneously involved some creative patching using the A/D input on the MU80. My software at the time involved MOTU Freestyle that came with my Korg and Cubasis/Cubase Lite that came with the QS6. Those were the days...  I once re-arranged my kumpare's composition on that machine and I was somehow able to manage 30 mono audio tracks! Not midi!

Granted if I were to do the same today, the quality will be much greater, but I learned all my DAW chops on that machine. From midi to editing to sampling (I had the AWE32 fitted with a couple of 4 meg simms ).

[Sound Weavers]

some tid bits from readings and encounters with foreign producers/mixers/engineers such as "drummer10630"

- prevalent on modern records to have 16 bit/44.1 samples

- folks assemble their tracks in home studios, then send them to pro studios for mixing

- The DUST BROTHERS keep on resampling the lo-fi sounds they got with their old ATARIs and COMMODORES

- JOHN BONHAM DRUM SOUND recorded in a castle with spiral staircase, guess where the mic position - HUGE drum sound

as long as the HOST COMPUTER can hold, creating, crafting and mixing sounds is up to the imagination, patience and dedication of the person.

[abyssinianson]

before I got Cubase 3.1, my first serious sequencer, I worked on an Atari and with a precursor to a program called Mixaman which could handle proprietary audio files as well as small clips of WAV files. I thought that stuff was the bomb until I got a 61 key midi keyboard that plugged in through a serial port. I thought that was IT!

[skunkyfunk]

I am not discounting the fact that you can record AT HOME.  Rick Rubin's masterpiece, Blood Sugar Sex Magic was recorded in a haunted mansion.  It took them 9 months to rehearse before laying everything on tape.  And I cannot discount the fact that their makeshift studio was 10x better than most studios in this country.  

The idea behind this thread is not to demean ourselves, but rather get to the bottom of our dilemma.  Why the hell are OUR recordings (bands particularly) so messed up?

[abyssinianson]

I am not discounting the fact that you can record AT HOME.  Rick Rubin's masterpiece, Blood Sugar Sex Magic was recorded in a haunted mansion.  It took them 9 months to rehearse before laying everything on tape.  And I cannot discount the fact that their makeshift studio was 10x better than most studios in this country.  

The idea behind this thread is not to demean ourselves, but rather get to the bottom of our dilemma.  Why the hell are OUR recordings (bands particularly) so messed up?

my guess: the recording methodology and mixing skills need improvement to compete with mainstream material's "sound" released from the US, European and Japanese markets. any other suggestions?

[skunkyfunk]

I am not discounting the fact that you can record AT HOME.  Rick Rubin's masterpiece, Blood Sugar Sex Magic was recorded in a haunted mansion.  It took them 9 months to rehearse before laying everything on tape.  And I cannot discount the fact that their makeshift studio was 10x better than most studios in this country.  

The idea behind this thread is not to demean ourselves, but rather get to the bottom of our dilemma.  Why the hell are OUR recordings (bands particularly) so messed up?

my guess: the recording methodology and mixing skills need improvement to compete with mainstream material's "sound" released from the US, European and Japanese markets. any other suggestions?

Point taken.  But can we come up with world-class recordings with what we have NOW?  Can people hear the difference between an 1176 plugin versus the real thing?  Can people hear the difference between vocals recorded straight thru a Digi 001 VERSUS an AKG414 fed to a Neve Portico 5042 with an EL Distressor on the rear end through a Benchmark ADC1 to a Protools HD3 Accel?   Tracking stage pa lang ang dami na nating kulang.

[abyssinianson]

I am not discounting the fact that you can record AT HOME.  Rick Rubin's masterpiece, Blood Sugar Sex Magic was recorded in a haunted mansion.  It took them 9 months to rehearse before laying everything on tape.  And I cannot discount the fact that their makeshift studio was 10x better than most studios in this country.  

The idea behind this thread is not to demean ourselves, but rather get to the bottom of our dilemma.  Why the hell are OUR recordings (bands particularly) so messed up?

my guess: the recording methodology and mixing skills need improvement to compete with mainstream material's "sound" released from the US, European and Japanese markets. any other suggestions?

Point taken.  But can we come up with world-class recordings with what we have NOW?  Can people hear the difference between an 1176 plugin versus the real thing?  Can people hear the difference between vocals recorded straight thru a Digi 001 VERSUS an AKG414 fed to a Neve Portico 5042 with an EL Distressor on the rear end through a Benchmark ADC1 to a Protools HD3 Accel?   Tracking stage pa lang ang dami na nating kulang.

not unless you are listening to the songs through hi-fi equipment or decent studio monitors. then again, these are not the mainstream speakers people listen to. the reason why I specified "methodology" and "mixing skills" as suggestions is because both are totally doable with the equipment available to the philippine market. had I said "Upgrade your equipment," that would have specified using the gear you detailed. Having good gear in a signal path is one thing, sharpening your methodology - the way you engineer your tracks, mix it, and arrange the elements in a song - is different. engineering a track with the gear that you have requires a working knowledge of what frequencies your instruments work best on, how to best capture them in the environment you are in, and applying the proper effects to contextualize the track to the scope of the whole song. engineering a song, like the recording methodology (not the equipment) can make or break a track because although a Digi 001 cannot compare to a Neve, you can record at a high res (1)96khz at 32 bit float - more than enough to ensure that you are getting every bitrate of data you are recording. and even if you dither down to 44.1, you are still capturing as much detail as possible to make track sound fuller.

using the EQs in a regular sequencer, you can trim, boost, and enhance the elements of a song for next to nothing since there are powerful tools included with the sequencer. if you need dynamics, sequencers come with those tools too - saturation emulators, modulation effects, choruses, automation etc... there are a ton of tools in Cubase, Sonar, Logic, or MOTU that you can use to get your track in good shape.

[jplacson]

Skunkyfunk, I know what you mean...

Of course there's a diff with current (even top of the line) digital gear/plugins and the real thing...

But... only .1% of the listening audience can tell the difference... IF.. the playback system is also up to par with the people listening.  If heard through a little mono AA powered radio, I highly doubt even the best ears can tell the difference... but played back through decent reference studio monitors, you can tell.

Back to the point, I think we can.  But I think it's cuz not enough emphasis is given on the art of recording.

Mixing is still thought of as "as long I can hear everyone in the band"

And mastering is "effects"

I'm not saying this is true for everyone... but we're talking generalizations here.  And you can hear it in a lot of mixes.

Compressors and effects here are set to a point that the effect and level of compression HAVE TO BE HEARD.  There's rarely subtlety in our processing.

Now, we do have good recordings... but these are usually reserved for more established artists... specially in the jazz field (where the difference can be heard).

But if you're talking about the pop/rock/alternative scene... most still go the DI way, which is actually fine... but it's tough for some of the bands to find good mastering places that they can afford. Some don't know that they have to master.  Majority mindset here is that mixing IS mastering.  Or at the most, mastering is adding reverb to the final mix.

It's like... for a lack of a good studio, most bands record at home, DI into a PC.  But, you gotta spend more time tweaking the mix.  Clean up each individual wav if possible before mixing.  If you can, spring to have individual tracks mixed at a real studio.  Outboard processors of bigger studios can usually make your mix sound fuller due their higher headroom and better FR.  In the end, it'll be worth it.

If budget won't really allow any studio time at all.. then you'll have to spend a lot more time at home... ask for help (from this forum and others) for someone who can help out in their spare time... remember, you can't rush the work... it'll just come out sloppy.

If there are deadlines... then at the very least, save all individual tracks in their RAW, UNPROCESSED form... a remixed/remastered version can be done later on... even if it's just to make it sound better.

But don't forget, a lot of new bands are sounding better.  I like how Slapshock's album was done.  I actually like it more than how some foreign metal bands were recorded.  I don't know where this was done, or how much was actually spent, but I do like it.