TALK @ PhilMusic.com - The Online Home of the Pinoy Musician
The Musician Forums => Guitar Central => Topic started by: BAMF on December 11, 2006, 10:56:34 AM
-
First off when examining "Boston Engineering" pedals, I thought that JB Music ordered these from Elder Audio and rebadged them.
The story looks a little more complicated than that. After opening the plastic wah/volume pedal, I recognized that it was inconsistent with the quality of the Boston pedals I was used to modding. The plastic wah/volume pedal was of shoddy quality.
Then later on, researching on the products of Elder Audio (www.elderaudio.com) , I was wondering why the Boston "Orange" amps were not on their website.
Then the final realization. I bought a set of "Boston Engineering" drum mikes from JB after comparing them with "Maxtone" and "Nady". Well...the Nady condensers kicked the Boston's butt but the dynamic mikes were very good and they let the wood sound of the drums we auditioned them on really ring out. So I bought them.
I won't go to how exactly I found out, but after some internet research, I found that these mikes were made by a China-based company called Soundking. (www.soundking.com)
So it seems that the "Boston Engineering" brand is really a special rebadge for JB Music and the products under this brand really come from various manufacturers.
It also means that each of the products under this brand should be auditioned and evaluated individually and not be given the blanket "Okay yan, boston e" generalization. Because, as I said, the brand is a conglomeration of products from multiple manufacturers. There will be both good and bad products under this rebadged brand name.
Being a marketing and businessman myself, I'm unsure of how to feel about it...it can go "Kudos" to JB for an innovative brand-name building exercise to "shame on you" for confusing the market with an American-sounding brand name slapped on Chinese products (although I'm more inclined towards the kudos...would have been perfect had it not been busted).
Or maybe, let's just suspend all judgement on the matter, and take it as it is.
Thus that's the more pragmatic thesis : Audition and test each Boston Engineering product as they do not come from a single manufacturer...some will be gems and some will be lemons. DO NOT generalize them all as good just because they share the same badge.
-
ayus yung tip mo sir dapat test mabuti :mrgreen:
-
This is a strong case for trademark infringement. The whole bones about trademark infringement is confusion. If one will buy Boston Engineering because he taught it was Boston effects, then the case will hold water.
The problem now is, Boston Effects has to go after Boston Engineering. BAMF, give them my number. :wink:
-
sir yung wah ba na sinasabi mo yung parang ibanez wf look alike?
does it sound that bad?
-
Sir BAMF, kumusta ba yung bakal na wah nila? review naman. :-D
-
no opnion on the metal wah pedal. Haven't tried it, and haven't gotten my hands on them.
But they come from the same company, soundking, that makes the plastic wahs
(http://www.soundking.com/admin/UploadFiles/20058229419358.jpg)
And here is what seems to be the metal wah
(http://www.soundking.com/images/upfile/2005822940982284.jpg)
I hope they're not identical circuit-wise because if they are, the metal wah will sound just as bad as the plastic wah.
-
whew, muntik nko bumili nyang plastic wah
-
how does that plastic one fare as a volume pedal?
-
for me ok na yung plastic wah as volume, pero kung wah di talaga panget ang sound
almost without effect ang volume wah sa tone i think, i have one eh
-
great info there,sir BAMF!!
-
This is a strong case for trademark infringement. The whole bones about trademark infringement is confusion. If one will buy Boston Engineering because he taught it was Boston effects, then the case will hold water.
The problem now is, Boston Effects has to go after Boston Engineering. BAMF, give them my number. :wink:
Attorney, if I understand your quote correctly, there is nothing illegal with re-packaging/re-branding as a creative marketing concept. Where things go down the path of Waway and Jesse James is when the concept starts this smoke-and-mirrors game with the public and the latter thinks that what they're buying is the real McCoy when it is not. Tama ba pagkaintindi ko? Whether the public knew or not that the product is rebadged or was manufacted by a third party contractor, is of no bearing with regards to whether any law was breached or not, tama ba? Similarly, whether the quality of the rebadged product is better, at par, or worse than the original is of no significance as well (or, as they say, "Its depend"?)
-
This is a strong case for trademark infringement. The whole bones about trademark infringement is confusion. If one will buy Boston Engineering because he taught it was Boston effects, then the case will hold water.
The problem now is, Boston Effects has to go after Boston Engineering. BAMF, give them my number. :wink:
Attorney, if I understand your quote correctly, there is nothing illegal with re-packaging/re-branding as a creative marketing concept. Where things go down the path of Waway and Jesse James is when the concept starts this smoke-and-mirrors game with the public and the latter thinks that what they're buying is the real McCoy when it is not. Tama ba pagkaintindi ko? Whether the public knew or not that the product is rebadged or was manufacted by a third party contractor, is of no bearing with regards to whether any law was breached or not, tama ba? Similarly, whether the quality of the rebadged product is better, at par, or worse than the original is of no significance as well (or, as they say, "Its depend"?)
Well, trademark infringement is a crime under the Intellectual Property Code of the Philippines. You are missing the point of "re-packaging". If company B repacks a product of company B, that is patent infringement and/or trademark. If you get a totally distinct looking product but use a similar brand name, that's trademark infringement. That's the simplest way to explain.
If you want me to explain it further, it will cost you 2,000 per hour or a Epi LP if you hit 10 hours. :-P
Disclaimer: It's a joke!
-
Sir BAMF, kumusta ba yung bakal na wah nila? review naman. :-D
nagoyo din ako dito. ang mura kasi nung wah nila. i was goin to buy hell baby sana sa behringer pero nakita ko to. mababaw lang ang tunog nya. pero after using several time sira agad. hindi ko na binalik kasi nainis na ko. now im using a snarling dog.
-
This is a strong case for trademark infringement. The whole bones about trademark infringement is confusion. If one will buy Boston Engineering because he taught it was Boston effects, then the case will hold water.
The problem now is, Boston Effects has to go after Boston Engineering. BAMF, give them my number. :wink:
Attorney, if I understand your quote correctly, there is nothing illegal with re-packaging/re-branding as a creative marketing concept. Where things go down the path of Waway and Jesse James is when the concept starts this smoke-and-mirrors game with the public and the latter thinks that what they're buying is the real McCoy when it is not. Tama ba pagkaintindi ko? Whether the public knew or not that the product is rebadged or was manufacted by a third party contractor, is of no bearing with regards to whether any law was breached or not, tama ba? Similarly, whether the quality of the rebadged product is better, at par, or worse than the original is of no significance as well (or, as they say, "Its depend"?)
Well, trademark infringement is a crime under the Intellectual Property Code of the Philippines. You are missing the point of "re-packaging". If company B repacks a product of company B, that is patent infringement and/or trademark. If you get a totally distinct looking product but use a similar brand name, that's trademark infringement. That's the simplest way to explain.
If you want me to explain it further, it will cost you 2,000 per hour or a Epi LP if you hit 10 hours. :-P
Disclaimer: It's a joke!
Pero you can't discount the possibility na baka yung mga produktong ito ay intended talaga to be sold rebadged, repackaged, or whatever. Maraming Original Equipment Manfacturers. Meron akong kilalang may HD-DVD (or Blu-ray?) na gawa ng Sony pero iba ang brand (Chinese!) and Sony won't admit that they built it for the Chinese brand.
Pwede ring platform at technology sharing kagaya ng auto manufacturers sa US at Europe.
-
this is a very interesting thread ...
yesterday my friend and i went pedal shopping... we tried a GTX heavy metal pedal and a Boston electronics Heavy Metal pedal. they both sound alike, look alike, and are priced alike ...
the manager at JB was an arse ... never allowed us to touch the guitar, the amps and the pedal... he was hogging everything while trying to sell us the pedal ... of course, we asked for black metal riffs and he attempted to do it but only managed to reach the "black metal as promoted by guitar world" speed.
anyway... my friend will be getting GTX ... at least the guy there allowed us to jam with the pedals.
the pedal is A-OK btw... less harsher than Boss Metal Zone, not as noisy as DOD's Death Metal pedal ... and doesn't feedback like crazy at high volume settings.
-
Hey guys.. disclaimer.. I am not a lawyer but i do know stuff about trademark infringement and boston effects vs boston eng. is not a valid argument. Primarily because no one was trying to fool anyone. They just figured out it was a great name because of the whole "dont by local" mentality dominant in or country. its not even local, its china! And besides there are alot of similar names out there (tortillios, tostitos etc). Its really not a big deal.
epiphone has no factory guys... its outsourced to korean manufacturers. Same for PRS and all the others... they have nothing to do but they still stamp the US PRS name on it. Doesnt mean they are trying to confuse anyone... buyers should know that its not a US brand. I took one look at it and figured it was made in china.
JB is doing a great job though bringing cheap products to the phil. music community. They are at least giving you the option,. Now dont expect it to sound like a boss/ last like a boss and even feel like one... they are just different products.
-
That's the sad thing about them repackaging /rebranding these products. One good thing about having to carry their brandname is the aftersales/post sales support. Like the case of Samick (when they still had a Korean plant) wherein they manufacture guitars for other companies to be rebranded later on and eventually be released as made in the USA or Made in Mexico , but in reality these are all made in China or Korea. I'm not saying their craftsmanship is horrenduous but by merely doing this it adds confusion to the buying public, specially when a obscene price tag is displayed.
For pedals, yeah I agree with everyone that we should try these first. If it works for you, keep it, if it doesn't you could always return it or ask BAMF to "sushify" your gain pedals purchased from Boston.
-
Pero you can't discount the possibility na baka yung mga produktong ito ay intended talaga to be sold rebadged, repackaged, or whatever. Maraming Original Equipment Manfacturers. Meron akong kilalang may HD-DVD (or Blu-ray?) na gawa ng Sony pero iba ang brand (Chinese!) and Sony won't admit that they built it for the Chinese brand.
Pwede ring platform at technology sharing kagaya ng auto manufacturers sa US at Europe.
We are talking about two different points here. If there is an OEM using Sony technology, I will assume there is a patent license given. If it is without license, then it is infringement. Like that yucky MB van made by a Korean car manufacturer. The only thing Benz about is the engine and the logo.
On your example of the HD-DVD, I have to assume that the Chinese company paid a license fee to use Sony technology.
Hope this clarifies the point. 8-)
-
Clarify ko lang a few points :
1. There is a "real" Boston Engineering company in the US. They're not into music electronics though, it seems that they are into engineering consultancy.
2. There is nothing wrong IMHO with the rebadging per se (if the real Boston Engineering sues them, that's JB's problem). It's just that at first I thought it was only one company (Elder Audio) that they got their pedals and amps from and rebadged them as Boston Engineering. It's just that apparently, Boston Engineering is an in-house JB brand and the products that come under that line actually come from many Chinese manufacturers. By nature, the quality and standards of these companies will be different, hence the discrepancy between the Elder Audio pedals (also known as Beta-Aivin and GTX, which are great BTW) and the Soundking (the plastic wah) pedals.
3. That being said, I'm not saying also that Chinese products are no good. Heck, I have a ton of Chinese stuff. But there will be variability in terms of quality, even within a single Chinese manufacturer. Case in point, the Soundking mikes are great. The Soundking Wahs are little plastic pieces of sh*t. That's just an opinion BTW. And again, Soundking makes tube amps. Could these be the OEM of (gasp) Peavey Valveking ? :D . More research.
http://www.soundking.com/en-pro.asp?classid=44&page=1
(http://www.soundking.com/images/upfile/0000047.jpg)
Yun lang po ang thesis nun. Just test each "Boston Engineering" product carefully.
-
ayuz!! nicely researched!!
re: #3 statement ...there are really a lot of good buys. Even US based companies re-badge products while some have products that are manufactured in the same facilities.
-
Sa #1 ni BAMF, kung nauna naman ang JB to register "Boston Engineering" dito sa Pinas, di naman siguro sila magkakaroon ng problema. Unless bawal na ngayon under whatever trade treaty or IP law.
Tignan mo nga yung jeans na Mr. Lee at Lee M.R. The American Lee sued and lost! Malas nila. Hehehehe.
-
IMO, if they wanted to try to "copycat" they would've tried to get a more famous name. something like "ross" for "boss" :-D
-
nice thread... i could really use this for my research work. sir bamf if u dont mind me quoting you. thnx.
-
this thread is really informative. i have learned a lot, thanks. :-D
lets go back to the topic.. hehe
-
nice topic I've learned a lot from this :lol:
-
kaya grab na those Boston pedals bago magka-demandahan sa korte! :D
-
i have a gtx hevy metal at home, swabe pag nagload ung distortion, u must be right, it is indeed a gem,. ask q lang if boston, beta aivin and gtx are manufactured by the same company, preho xe enclosure..
:mrgreen:
i think Boston should be spelled Boss Tone hehe :-D asa ako haha!
-
good thing nabasa ko tong thread na ito.. i was looking for information about boston engineering kasi nga walang website nila.. tama si sir bamf at construction ata ang laman nung Boston ENg na site
tanong ko lang nama eh ayos din naman ba ang heavy metal stompbox nila? kasi baka bumili ako. yun lang ang budget ko kasi pag bahay lang naman.
how bout the durability?
-
thanks sa info sir BAMF! :-D
-
well, ung saken n gtx heavy metal really delivers, plus you can set which frequencies to emphasize, unlike ordinary dist pedals.. ako din eh hehe, budget musikero lang din, pambhay baga,. got a boston compression ped too, luv it..
ei, ntry nu n ba ung century na pedals? un xeng matapobre kong tiyo na aw ako pagamitin ng efx sa grupo ko bumili nun, pumputok ing amp pag inpkan n ung pedals, esp. ung korus hihi! :mrgreen:
-
well, ung saken n gtx heavy metal really delivers, plus you can set which frequencies to emphasize, unlike ordinary dist pedals.. ako din eh hehe, budget musikero lang din, pambhay baga,. got a boston compression ped too, luv it..
ei, ntry nu n ba ung century na pedals? un xeng matapobre kong tiyo na aw ako pagamitin ng efx sa grupo ko bumili nun, pumputok ing amp pag inpkan n ung pedals, esp. ung korus hihi! :mrgreen:
Yep. Boston, GTX, GLX, Beta-Aivin all come from Elder Audio. On the other hand, Century, Maxtone, Denio, Vshock are all the same pedals. On that line, me gems, me not-so-gems din.
What I like so much with the HM100 is how heavilly moddable it is, and when you do, it gets soo very versatile. I'm implementing a new Zen mod on my HM100 (did it already on Anton's Bakemono and my Boston OD100 and DS100). Captures the nuances of the much-fabled Zen Drive :D. Dalhin ko siguro mamaya sa Xmas party :D
BTW please refrain from txt spelling. Tnx. Ooops, Thanks. :D
-
I just checked out the website of soundking, it is the same baloney nga, eto na nga rebadged boston engineering products. I was interested in the PA Systems that JBMusic is now selling and I couldn't find the technical specs of the products until I stumbled upon this thread...now I know, if you need product specs of boston engineering products, visit the soundking website!
-
up
-
BTW please refrain from txt spelling. Tnx. Ooops, Thanks. :D
hay hohonga noh? sohry poh, hehe.. ^_^
got a GTX overdrve last december nga pla, naghanap tlga ako kasi nga alam kong wala nang masyadong GTX sa Raon eh, buti dun sa suki ko meron pa! aun, both my dirt peds will be gtx, and i'll rely on behringer processing na lang for the extra effects (e.g. chorus flange, etc.). also got a behringer fx100 nah, prob ko nalng ung lakas ng drain sa battery.. OT lang po, anu po bang mgandang adaptor for the fx100 to suit the draw?
-
I purchased the Boston Engineering plastic Wah two years ago for 1,100 pesos. I bought it instantly because I saw it was so cheap i ddnt even bother to test it thoroughly.
When I got home and tried it in my rig it was total CRAP. Wasted piece of junk. Wont even "wah" it just goes "woh woh woh" and even if I opened it and adjusted the pots inside for maximum swing it still sounded bad. Worse is that the bypass volume pedal function sucks tone a LOT.
I ended up giving the pedal away to an old friend, in exchange for beers hehehehe
-
Wow. Once again, sir BAMF amazes us with his l337 detective skills. Thanks sir for uncovering this.
-
I purchased the Boston Engineering plastic Wah two years ago for 1,100 pesos. I bought it instantly because I saw it was so cheap i ddnt even bother to test it thoroughly.
When I got home and tried it in my rig it was total CRAP. Wasted piece of junk. Wont even "wah" it just goes "woh woh woh" and even if I opened it and adjusted the pots inside for maximum swing it still sounded bad. Worse is that the bypass volume pedal function sucks tone a LOT.
I ended up giving the pedal away to an old friend, in exchange for beers hehehehe
If you want to get it back, it's easy to convert it into a volume pedal :D
-
Kudos to BAMF! This what I call R&D (Research and Development) I see nothing wrong with JB rebadging a chinese made product. Not everyone may know but there are more than a hundred Chinese electronic manufacturers who cannot break into the western market, or worse they even cannot break into the asian market. Somehow JB was able to make a tie up with these manufacturers. A good plus for JB music, and a better plus for the unknown manufacturer. The Chinese manufacturer wouldn't care less if the can make a name in the market, it's not their job and they were not trained to do that. For them their company would just be better off a a supplier for an electronic music dealer. Same goes to the even bigger names in pedal makers like Boss, they invested in chinese labor to make the pedals for them. Technology is Roland Japan but hard sweat is Chinese. I even doubt that parts supplied by Roland would still be Japanese made, plastic parts will definitely still be Chinese sweat. I remember I posted at another thread that our local nata de coco is exported to other countries to be used as PCP boards, maybe one of your Boss pedals has that nata de coco component.
-
If you want to get it back, it's easy to convert it into a volume pedal :D
I was planning to use the housing and do something about it, well I already gave it hehehe nakakahya naman if bawiin ko.
-
I was planning to use the housing and do something about it, well I already gave it hehehe nakakahya naman if bawiin ko.
bilhan mo din ng beer.
-
oohhhh good point :-D i really thought it was somehow acquainted with that amerocan brand :-D
-
this topic is very helpful ah. kahit na luma na sobra hanggang ngayon wala parin nanyayare sa issueng yan.
halos lahat ng sinabe dito ay pansin ko sa different "Brands" ng pedals sa JB
very helpful tlaga. :-D
-
this topic is very helpful ah. kahit na luma na sobra hanggang ngayon wala parin nanyayare sa issueng yan.
halos lahat ng sinabe dito ay pansin ko sa different "Brands" ng pedals sa JB
very helpful tlaga. :-D
There is no "issue" ser. It just is, and just "test everything" na lang before you buy. Yun lang naman yun.
-
very nice info... :-) and applicable din naman ata sa lahat ng brand/pedal un or kahit anong item... itest muna bago bilhin... pano kung may defect pala tapos di natin tinest dahil sa "brand name"? edi tayo din ang talo... :|
-
I own a boston engineering wah and its one of the worst pedal purchases i ever made. I didn't try it out at the store when I bought it, thinking it would sound decent anyway.
it's sounds like WOH WOH even with tweaking and adjustments in the pots and levers inside.
I keep it as a souvenir na lang. :cry:
-
veery enlightening.... :-D
-
i labs my hm 100 basic mod by bamf <3
i labs my eq100 change ic by bamf <3
sana lang maglabas sila ng parametric eq <3
-
Moral Lesson: There is nothing wrong in testing the product before buying it. :-)
-
this is a very useful tip sir. from now on, i will take time to check and test gadgets first.im impressed on how you put the time in investigating . you figured it out pretty well :lol: it has good and bad impression to about Jb music.
the pro is, jb is beginning to be competetive in the international market given that they have this "special agreement" with the boston engineering brand.
the con is, it may sound like jb is taking advantage of this privilidge in selling out possible low standard equipment that is not suitable for professional use.we can compare this with the nintendo wii . nintendo has third party manufacturers who markets nintendo wii controllers,accessories, gadgets, and so on.because of this setting , the nintendo company fails to impose strict quality control among these manufacturers causing massive product recalls, maraming defective.sana hindi mangyari to sa jb kasi sayang naman yung foundation at market share nila dito sa pinas kung masisira sila.
-
this is a very useful tip sir. from now on, i will take time to check and test gadgets first.im impressed on how you put the time in investigating . you figured it out pretty well :lol: it has good and bad impression to about Jb music.
the pro is, jb is beginning to be competetive in the international market given that they have this "special agreement" with the boston engineering brand.
the con is, it may sound like jb is taking advantage of this privilidge in selling out possible low standard equipment that is not suitable for professional use.we can compare this with the nintendo wii . nintendo has third party manufacturers who markets nintendo wii controllers,accessories, gadgets, and so on.because of this setting , the nintendo company fails to impose strict quality control among these manufacturers causing massive product recalls, maraming defective.sana hindi mangyari to sa jb kasi sayang naman yung foundation at market share nila dito sa pinas kung masisira sila.
Ironically, Boston Engineering pedals are even better built than Boss pedals...AFAIK of course but I swear. Lalo na yung Japan na Boss ? Ay josko no comparison. Nagkakaputol-putol ang mga wire ng Boss Japan pedals because they dont use connectors. Pag luma na ang pedal, malutong na ang mga wire tapos ...pak, pak pak...sunod sunod sila kung maputol. I don't think that would ever happen to Boston pedals. And dig this. There are foil-side component markings on the Boston. Sa Boss...wala.
-
now can anyone summarize the YAY bostons and the NAY bostons? in general ofc with comparison sa BOSS, kasi we have diff tone preferences/perceptions.
-
now can anyone summarize the YAY bostons and the NAY bostons? in general ofc with comparison sa BOSS, kasi we have diff tone preferences/perceptions.
Basta kung okay sayo ung tunog edi okay un! :-D
-
Ironically, Boston Engineering pedals are even better built than Boss pedals...AFAIK of course but I swear. Lalo na yung Japan na Boss ? Ay josko no comparison. Nagkakaputol-putol ang mga wire ng Boss Japan pedals because they dont use connectors. Pag luma na ang pedal, malutong na ang mga wire tapos ...pak, pak pak...sunod sunod sila kung maputol. I don't think that would ever happen to Boston pedals. And dig this. There are foil-side component markings on the Boston. Sa Boss...wala.
Thanks sir Bamf for a very helpful information. Ayos! ^_^
Basta kung okay sayo ung tunog edi okay un! :-D
+1
-
Ironically, Boston Engineering pedals are even better built than Boss pedals...AFAIK of course but I swear. Lalo na yung Japan na Boss ? Ay josko no comparison. Nagkakaputol-putol ang mga wire ng Boss Japan pedals because they dont use connectors. Pag luma na ang pedal, malutong na ang mga wire tapos ...pak, pak pak...sunod sunod sila kung maputol. I don't think that would ever happen to Boston pedals. And dig this. There are foil-side component markings on the Boston. Sa Boss...wala.
:-o woah! i was not aware of that sir.. tsk! idol! :-)