QUALITY vs COST

[rolexm]

I've read through so many threads that both bash cheap and expensive gear. Everyone has preferences wrt this. However, do we even wonder if the more expensive gear is really of GOOD quality?

How do you know you're only buying something for THE NAME? Is there a really significant difference between quality as cost goes up? For all we know cost can escalade exponentially but quality is growing at almost a flatline.

For those purists, maybe you should rethink about praising your gear. For those who are anti-purists, maybe you should consider reviewing what you have. That's just a maybe. What do you guys think?

The goal of this thread is to determine when we can say something is practical, meaning the cost and the quality are at par.

[BAMF]

Let me tell you this story.

I've been doing electronics since I was Grade 6. At first I used my kuya's gear, for instance, his Stanley screwdrivers. They were tough, very durable and very functional.

When I got to College, my brother was no longer living with me, so I had to buy my own tools. Being on a college allowance, I bought those 50 pesos a set screwdrivers which were so pissy they would round out when met with a tough screw.

Once I started working, I was able to afford those Stanley screw drivers again and life went along as usual.

Then one day, a screwdriver salesman came to my shop. He said "Hey man, you should try this screwdriver ! Its got a tungsten-carbide tip with titanium shaft for the ultimate in toughness. This thing will NEVER round out except if it meets another titanium screw (and how many of those do you find lying around??). The micro-serrations on the edge of the driving tip will "bite" into the screw and ensure positive traction as you turn the screwdriver. The new synthetic rubber grip varies its viscosity as the temperature of your hand will make it stickier ! No more dropping screwdrivers ! The grip on this thing will make it stick to your hand like glue ! So order your Ultramega Screwdriver now for the very cheap price of Fifteen thousand pesos ! But wait, there's more ! If you order now, you'll get a free titanium hammer. Show off to your friends. Be the envy of every hammer-wielding person on your block. This hammer is light but very strong and is 99.5% sterling silver plated. Order now and get your UltraMega screwdriver with your free gift of the Titanium Hammer. We will even give you glass cases for these amazing tools so you can show them off to your friends with pride and joy that any tool owner can have.

I told him "take your driver and hammer and shove it up your arse".

n.b. - some parts of this story are fictional

So what does it tell me ?

1. At the bottom is crap
2. Somewhere in the middle is something that's just right
3. Somewhere beyond your needs is impractical although undoubtedly of higher quality.

So which gear is your gear ? At the end of the day, it's what suits you. 

[jimy james]

can't wait till the guy w/ the $5k Suhr , boutique pedals & hi end NYC Tube Amps posts more of his obnoxious remarks...

BRING OUT THE POPCORN!!!

[Letour]

To some people, there will be no difference at both ends of the economic scale.

The Quality vs. Cost argument presupposes they are opposites. If they are, then no use in arguing.

As BAMF wisely put it, it is what suits you. And I may get flak for this, but there some quality gear that is cost efficient just like someone said there are lousy sounding expensive gear.

I am neither a purist nor an anti-purist. I am just anti-bashing.

Let me tell you a story, the legendary psychic_sushi made my $100 Epi LP junior sound like a $1000 Gibson LP standard. If he played it longer, it would have sounded like a $4000 PRS Custom.

[trinch]

i am just hoping that this would not turn out to be one of those " tone is in the finger, tone is in the equipment" kinda thread.

would really like to hear the side of those who can afford the high end gears.

[badongrodrigs]

Let me tell you a story, the legendary psychic_sushi made my $100 Epi LP junior sound like a $1000 Gibson LP standard. If he played it longer, it would have sounded like a $4000 PRS Custom.

classic example!

parang fashion and modeling din yan siguro.

have a fat guy dress in an expensive Hugo Boss and he'll look average at best, then have him dress in a Bench outfit, he'll still look the same, even more average.

and then, have a well-built guy dress in an expensive Hugo Boss and he'll look good, then have him dress in a Bench outfit, if he's confident, then he'll still be able to pull it off and look awesome.

the point is: if you know you'll still look the same whatever you wear, be it expensive or not, then buy what's best comfortable to your status. nothing wrong with that.

[rolexm]

can't wait till the guy w/ the $5k Suhr , boutique pedals & hi end NYC Tube Amps posts more of his obnoxious remarks...

BRING OUT THE POPCORN!!!

 

Let me tell you this story.

I've been doing electronics since I was Grade 6. At first I used my kuya's gear, for instance, his Stanley screwdrivers. They were tough, very durable and very functional.

When I got to College, my brother was no longer living with me, so I had to buy my own tools. Being on a college allowance, I bought those 50 pesos a set screwdrivers which were so pissy they would round out when met with a tough screw.

Once I started working, I was able to afford those Stanley screw drivers again and life went along as usual.

Then one day, a screwdriver salesman came to my shop. He said "Hey man, you should try this screwdriver ! Its got a tungsten-carbide tip with titanium shaft for the ultimate in toughness. This thing will NEVER round out except if it meets another titanium screw (and how many of those do you find lying around??). The micro-serrations on the edge of the driving tip will "bite" into the screw and ensure positive traction as you turn the screwdriver. The new synthetic rubber grip varies its viscosity as the temperature of your hand will make it stickier ! No more dropping screwdrivers ! The grip on this thing will make it stick to your hand like glue ! So order your Ultramega Screwdriver now for the very cheap price of Fifteen thousand pesos ! But wait, there's more ! If you order now, you'll get a free titanium hammer. Show off to your friends. Be the envy of every hammer-wielding person on your block. This hammer is light but very strong and is 99.5% sterling silver plated. Order now and get your UltraMega screwdriver with your free gift of the Titanium Hammer. We will even give you glass cases for these amazing tools so you can show them off to your friends with pride and joy that any tool owner can have.

I told him "take your driver and hammer and shove it up your arse".

n.b. - some parts of this story are fictional

So what does it tell me ?

1. At the bottom is crap
2. Somewhere in the middle is something that's just right
3. Somewhere beyond your needs is impractical although undoubtedly of higher quality.

So which gear is your gear ? At the end of the day, it's what suits you. 

But are all the HIGH HIGH TO THE HEAVENS END worth it? I certainly agree with most that the differences would be negligible in most cases. It's not like when you play live people will say, "His tone isn't very clear, his cables must be really cheap." Or you would only notice the bottom end of really bad cables and midrange up it is least likely to be noticble. So just because you can afford it doesn't mean it's practical right?

Please share more of your opinions.

[kune_km]

But are all the HIGH HIGH TO THE HEAVENS END worth it? I certainly agree with most that the differences would be negligible in most cases. It's not like when you play live people will say, "His tone isn't very clear, his cables must be really cheap." Or you would only notice the bottom end of really bad cables and midrange up it is least likely to be noticble. So just because you can afford it doesn't mean it's practical right?

Please share more of your opinions.

good point!!!

 

[markv]

Pag mahal, maganda kadalasan.

Pag mura, may dahilan.

[boogsy]

It all boils down to diminishing returns. You certainly can't deny that quality often comes with a price. I say often, not always, because there are a few exceptions like a lot of japanese workhorses we have. Though a lot of them have poor quality too. Unfortunately, its a fact that the more durable materials, stricter quality standards, and more pleasing aesthetics all incur cost.

However, the more we pay in the long run, the less we get out of it. The first big bucks we shell out, there's a dramatic difference. Let's say jumping from your first RJ guitar to a Fender American Standard. Your first tube amp from a solid state. Your first boutique effects (still debatable). It's the remaining 10% improvement that makes us go bankrupt. You start focusing on all these small details that nobody else will notice.. You start changing to boutique pickups, strings, cables, tubes, etc.. For people who can afford it, the slight improvements are still worth it.. But I guess if you can afford it, why the hell not? You don't have to be Schumi to drive a Ferarri.

Here's an analogy.. When you get a Nissan Skyline after driving a Corolla for a long time, you WILL feel and see the difference. Even if you kept telling yourself that you were happy with your Corolla and that's all you'll ever need. But from then on, when you move on to a Porsche.. to a Lambo.. paliit na ng paliit yung returns.

[arkeetar]

[rolexm]

It all boils down to diminishing returns. You certainly can't deny that quality often comes with a price. I say often, not always, because there are a few exceptions like a lot of japanese workhorses we have. Though a lot of them have poor quality too. Unfortunately, its a fact that the more durable materials, stricter quality standards, and more pleasing aesthetics all incur cost.

However, the more we pay in the long run, the less we get out of it. The first big bucks we shell out, there's a dramatic difference. Let's say jumping from your first RJ guitar to a Fender American Standard. Your first tube amp from a solid state. Your first boutique effects (still debatable). It's the remaining 10% improvement that makes us go bankrupt. You start focusing on all these small details that nobody else will notice.. You start changing to boutique pickups, strings, cables, tubes, etc.. For people who can afford it, the slight improvements are still worth it.. But I guess if you can afford it, why the hell not? You don't have to be Scumi to drive a Ferarri.

Here's an analogy.. When you get a Nissan Skyline after driving a Corolla for a long time, you WILL feel and see the difference. Even if you kept telling yourself that you were happy with your Corolla and that's all you'll ever need. But from then on, when you move on to a Porsche.. to a Lambo.. paliit na ng paliit yung returns.

Exactly what I was pointing out: The law of diminshing returns. Economics! Hehe. 

There is a place within the range that the utils are not worth the increase in cost but then again this is also relative. But ceteris paribus, taking 90% confidence level, we could conclude that this range exists for the average Filipino. Naks, statistics. 

[BAMF]

+1 there boogsy.

Rolex, all that I'm trying to say is that the word "worth it" or "sulit" is not portable, and neither can we put a "one size fits all" definition of it. The definition of sulit is always your own. It' always a cost-benefit thing, and is based on your personal criteria of what's important to you. If your criteria is getting from point A to point B, and just that then a Corolla will always kick the butt of a Porsche. If your criteria dictates that you want to get from A to B faster, then a more powerful car will be justified. If your criteria dictates that you have to get from A to B fast, and look good while doing it, then the Porsche becomes definitely justified. It all boils down to what's important to you and what are the criteria you use when selecting gear.

Now, attempting to hit the nail on the head. A story from ussfdoc during one of my visits. He told me that the Fender Standard MIM and the American Standard MIA strats are THE SAME everywhere. In wood, hardware, wires etc. The only difference is that legal mexicans assemble the MIA's in Corona while Mexican nationals assemble the MIM's in Tijuana. Its in the higher end where Fender puts your money's worth. This is a guy who worked in the Fender factory.

In less detail, he recalls how his 500 dollar Epiphone LP has absolutely no sonic difference to his 4,000 dollar Gibson LP.

Another anecdote. I was in this party and the player was sporting a Baker B3. There were other (more seasoned, if I may add) guitarists in the table with me. One of them remarked "okay, it's a Les Paul". Oh well. But he sure looked awesome (played awesome too no doubt) wearing that B3 and of course there was that "wow" factor.

Another anecdote. http://consumerist.com/362926/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables . Audiophiles cannot determine the difference between a monster cable and a coat hanger.

From my own personal experience too. In a blind test of Overdrives, my TS7 won over several and much more expensive OD's. Of course there were other factors that played out but yeah in that particular test, a humble TS7 (and a ego-maniacal owner) won.

The Boston HM100 is electronically superior to the Boss Metalzone costing more than four times its price, although let's lay off the sonically superior until a blind test is done. Besides that's too subjective.

Then there's the China tube amp clones.

So where is it exactly ? Going back now to guitar. At some point even a midline guitar will meet your criteria for "OK" sound. If you want more then upgrade the pickups. If you want to look awesome and people go "ooh, he's really rich" then get something really expensive. But as for the money-for-tone thing ? Oh I don't know. I've seen too many counter-examples. You *can* get more than what you pay for by not paying for expensive labor, marketing expenses, expensive currencies and "the name".

Tell me if I'm off the line.

[pao2pao16]

can't wait till the guy w/ the $5k Suhr , boutique pedals & hi end NYC Tube Amps posts more of his obnoxious remarks...

BRING OUT THE POPCORN!!!

ooohh... I know this guy. hehe.

[aHeartThatNeverFade]

+1 there boogsy.

Rolex, all that I'm trying to say is that the word "worth it" or "sulit" is not portable, and neither can we put a "one size fits all" definition of it. The definition of sulit is always your own. It' always a cost-benefit thing, and is based on your personal criteria of what's important to you. If your criteria is getting from point A to point B, and just that then a Corolla will always kick the butt of a Porsche. If your criteria dictates that you want to get from A to B faster, then a more powerful car will be justified. If your criteria dictates that you have to get from A to B fast, and look good while doing it, then the Porsche becomes definitely justified. It all boils down to what's important to you and what are the criteria you use when selecting gear.

Now, attempting to hit the nail on the head. A story from ussfdoc during one of my visits. He told me that the Fender Standard MIM and the American Standard MIA strats are THE SAME everywhere. In wood, hardware, wires etc. The only difference is that legal mexicans assemble the MIA's in Corona while Mexican nationals assemble the MIM's in Tijuana. Its in the higher end where Fender puts your money's worth. This is a guy who worked in the Fender factory.

In less detail, he recalls how his 500 dollar Epiphone LP has absolutely no sonic difference to his 4,000 dollar Gibson LP.

Another anecdote. I was in this party and the player was sporting a Baker B3. There were other (more seasoned, if I may add) guitarists in the table with me. One of them remarked "okay, it's a Les Paul". Oh well. But he sure looked awesome (played awesome too no doubt) wearing that B3 and of course there was that "wow" factor.

Another anecdote. http://consumerist.com/362926/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables . Audiophiles cannot determine the difference between a monster cable and a coat hanger.

From my own personal experience too. In a blind test of Overdrives, my TS7 won over several and much more expensive OD's. Of course there were other factors that played out but yeah in that particular test, a humble TS7 (and a ego-maniacal owner) won.

The Boston HM100 is electronically superior to the Boss Metalzone costing more than four times its price, although let's lay off the sonically superior until a blind test is done. Besides that's too subjective.

Then there's the China tube amp clones.

So where is it exactly ? Going back now to guitar. At some point even a midline guitar will meet your criteria for "OK" sound. If you want more then upgrade the pickups. If you want to look awesome and people go "ooh, he's really rich" then get something really expensive. But as for the money-for-tone thing ? Oh I don't know. I've seen too many counter-examples. You *can* get more than what you pay for by not paying for expensive labor, marketing expenses, expensive currencies and "the name".

Tell me if I'm off the line.

this will tell everything...

[plugzzzz]

sa efx i believe that the more expenssive mas maganda ang quality... boston OD pedal doesnt have a chance against Bk tube driver... for some reason newbies thinks the more gain your have the more ok yung pedal pro mali yun tinatago ng gain yung mga sabit nang player while boutique expenssive pedals are very transparent pag sumabit ka rinig na rinig so mapipilitan kang mag practice plus your tone cuts thru with band settings....dati masaya nako sa metalzone but pro nung nakagamit nako ng boutique di nako bumalik sa boss pedals...

[plugzzzz]

sa efx i believe that the more expenssive mas maganda ang quality... boston OD pedal doesnt have a chance against Bk tube driver... for some reason newbies thinks the more gain your have the more ok yung pedal pro mali yun tinatago ng gain yung mga sabit nang player while boutique expenssive pedals are very transparent pag sumabit ka rinig na rinig so mapipilitan kang mag practice plus your tone cuts thru with band settings....dati masaya nako sa metalzone but pro nung nakagamit nako ng boutique di nako bumalik sa boss pedals...

boutique/expenssive pedals using highquality componentscompare sa cheap ones... parang ganto nalang bumili ka ng china fon after ilang months nasira so bumili kaulet tapos after ilang months nasira ulet why not bumili ka nalang ng high quality fon na me warranty for several years and kilalang brand mas nakatipid kapa diba

[killjom]

I believe you that we can't really have a conclusion on this question, anyone has his or her own view on Quality vs. Cost, and I wouldn't be surprised to see this thread to have those same arguments in the past. At the end of the day, I'm sure you're gonna ask yourself if it is worth every penny you've spent.

Basta ako, hindi ako bibili ng gitarang worth 20-40k na agathis ang kahoy.  

[qroon]

Very nice thread!

I think that it will boil down on what we value. Aside from the perceived quality increase in more expensive gear, there is the playability factor that others will bring out. Of course economy is a big factor. Like recently, I've been looking for an alder-bodied P Bass. I'm already contemplating about getting a MIM Fender (after my good experience with the MIM Jazz) then SX came along

Is it the same as the MIM Fender? No. But the low cost of acquiring this bass outweighs the added value of the MIM Fender.

Oh, and everything is justifiable when you got GAS.

[BAMF]

sa efx i believe that the more expenssive mas maganda ang quality... boston OD pedal doesnt have a chance against Bk tube driver... for some reason newbies thinks the more gain your have the more ok yung pedal pro mali yun tinatago ng gain yung mga sabit nang player while boutique expenssive pedals are very transparent pag sumabit ka rinig na rinig so mapipilitan kang mag practice plus your tone cuts thru with band settings....dati masaya nako sa metalzone but pro nung nakagamit nako ng boutique di nako bumalik sa boss pedals...

boutique/expenssive pedals using highquality componentscompare sa cheap ones... parang ganto nalang bumili ka ng china fon after ilang months nasira so bumili kaulet tapos after ilang months nasira ulet why not bumili ka nalang ng high quality fon na me warranty for several years and kilalang brand mas nakatipid kapa diba

But here lies the problem. Don't compare the Boston OD100 with a Butler BK Tube Driver. They are very different animals and don't even share the same voicing.

Compare it with its peer. The Boston OD100 is a "modified" Boss BD2. Eh sa sound pa lang papaluin kahit ng stock na Boston OD100 ang Boss BD2 because the latter sounds like ipis

A quick check of the effects databases show that the close (very close) clone of the Butler BK Tube driver is the Behringer VT911. They just have one resistor value of difference AFAIK and according to the guy who traced out both circuits. Just change the stock tube to a decent one in the behri  and you're in the ballpark.

Sample : http://www.guitar-pedals-effects.com/ber.mp3

[abyssinianson]

does quality usually cost money - usually. does quality ALWAYS have to cost a lot of money? it depends on what your definition of quality is because it is really subjective. what one dude might find as "ok" i might consider pretty darn good. as a result, i explore the entire range of products from cheapos to more expensive stuff to see what it can do for me so i've had experience owning everything from pawnshop gems to high end boutique stuff. now, Suhr's are great and i've tried and played em but i can't justify getting one because i happen to play fine with my regular Strat. again, it all depends what you think the gear can do for you will the quality question become more concrete, otherwise, it is such a grey area that will incite more stupid arguments than constructive dialogue.

[killjom]

Nawala yung post ko. 

This question can never be concluded in my opinion because of the different views that we have, and I won't be surprised if we will see those same arguments in the past  At the end of the day, you'll be asking yourself if it is worth every penny, and I believe that's what is important. 

Basta ako, hindi ako bibili ng 25k-40k na gitara na agathis ang kahoy. 

[bryanarzaga]

Basta ako, hindi ako bibili ng 25k-40k na gitara na agathis ang kahoy. 

yeah, i only got one for 4K so not bad..my Rx was a 3 play(not 3 pieces) 3 layers of agathis..

[rolexm]

+1 there boogsy.

Rolex, all that I'm trying to say is that the word "worth it" or "sulit" is not portable, and neither can we put a "one size fits all" definition of it. The definition of sulit is always your own. It' always a cost-benefit thing, and is based on your personal criteria of what's important to you. If your criteria is getting from point A to point B, and just that then a Corolla will always kick the butt of a Porsche. If your criteria dictates that you want to get from A to B faster, then a more powerful car will be justified. If your criteria dictates that you have to get from A to B fast, and look good while doing it, then the Porsche becomes definitely justified. It all boils down to what's important to you and what are the criteria you use when selecting gear.

Now, attempting to hit the nail on the head. A story from ussfdoc during one of my visits. He told me that the Fender Standard MIM and the American Standard MIA strats are THE SAME everywhere. In wood, hardware, wires etc. The only difference is that legal mexicans assemble the MIA's in Corona while Mexican nationals assemble the MIM's in Tijuana. Its in the higher end where Fender puts your money's worth. This is a guy who worked in the Fender factory.

In less detail, he recalls how his 500 dollar Epiphone LP has absolutely no sonic difference to his 4,000 dollar Gibson LP.

Another anecdote. I was in this party and the player was sporting a Baker B3. There were other (more seasoned, if I may add) guitarists in the table with me. One of them remarked "okay, it's a Les Paul". Oh well. But he sure looked awesome (played awesome too no doubt) wearing that B3 and of course there was that "wow" factor.

Another anecdote. http://consumerist.com/362926/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables . Audiophiles cannot determine the difference between a monster cable and a coat hanger.

From my own personal experience too. In a blind test of Overdrives, my TS7 won over several and much more expensive OD's. Of course there were other factors that played out but yeah in that particular test, a humble TS7 (and a ego-maniacal owner) won.

The Boston HM100 is electronically superior to the Boss Metalzone costing more than four times its price, although let's lay off the sonically superior until a blind test is done. Besides that's too subjective.

Then there's the China tube amp clones.

So where is it exactly ? Going back now to guitar. At some point even a midline guitar will meet your criteria for "OK" sound. If you want more then upgrade the pickups. If you want to look awesome and people go "ooh, he's really rich" then get something really expensive. But as for the money-for-tone thing ? Oh I don't know. I've seen too many counter-examples. You *can* get more than what you pay for by not paying for expensive labor, marketing expenses, expensive currencies and "the name".

Tell me if I'm off the line.

Good shares sir Bamf!

So in some cases the difference is quality is so negligible even if cost is way different. And I did not mention that there is a one-size-fits-all definition. I'm just saying statistically speaking, there will always be a way to determine the range of comfort. 

[jimy james]

It's not in the "Fender"...




























It's in the "Hendrix"