hulika

Author Topic: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang  (Read 41557 times)

Offline firemodel55

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #50 on: August 02, 2015, 06:55:12 PM »
Strange world we live in...
Seems we're more interested in the 'magical' brush than the Mona Lisa. I don't think we can measure magic. If it actually exist, then maybe...

Because the 'magical' brush is an important aspect of the artist -- specially guitar players.  Eh kung ganoon lang pala na walang magic sa gitara, mag vocals ka na lang.

Offline firemodel55

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #51 on: August 02, 2015, 07:25:38 PM »
I expect this to be the case. However, I am wondering if the difference in tone is proportional to the price difference to justify the added cost. A shootout between your high end guitar and a properly set up american guitar of the same model, recorded in lossless audio and played on a hifi stereo, can demonstrate this. Unfortunately, that will not happen anytime soon coz no one wants to pay for the cost :-)

The Marginal Utility over the Marginal Cost is irrelevant and NOT Important with regards to sound.  Otherwise known as Bang for the Buck or Value for Money.
Its a Marketing Gimmick used by product managers to make you buy a clearly inferior or lower priced product.  Bang for Buck is ONLY real in the mind of the person who purchased the guitar.
In fact, Bang for Buck addresses your pocket (ability to finance) and not the sound of equipment.

For example, if I let the audience hear my US$10k Gil Yaron Les Paul Replica which are now loaded with an additional US$6k of 1959 PAFs they will clearly say its sounds far from a Greco that I picked out of the pier for around P10k.
In terms of Bang for Buck, the Greco has higher Bang for Buck but the Gil Yaron will sound far more better and pleasing.
Unfortunately, the harsh reality is that audience does not care how much a guitar costs only if it sounds bad or good?  I will tell you that I rather the Gil Yaron with real PAFs.


The other factor affecting Bang for Buck is that it only exists at point of purchase or in the case of the example above -- after upgrading.  Why so?  A lot of guitars when launched usually have a TBA price or SRP.
We usually want to get to the street price or the cheapest price that dealers are willing to give after deciding the maximum amount they can shave off their margin.  On the other hand, a simple pickup upgrade is a perfect example where in Bang for Buck assessment happens AFTER the pickups are loaded onto a guitar. 
Even if a small 5% increase in sound quality is observed we still keep the pickups on the guitar until we find a buyer for it.  I don't know of anybody who observes an improvement over the previous pickup set and reinstalls the inferior but superior Bang for the Buck pickup. 

Its an efficiency equation that does not really serve the interest of the guitarist as proven in the following cases.

Case 1:  Following the Superior Bang for Buck Formula - A Japanese Greco given to you by your uncle will win out versus a real 1959 burst sold to you for P100.  The price of the Greco (numerator) does not matter because the denominator (your money spent was zero). 
But somehow, we do know that the real burst is clearly the winner here.

Case 2: Let us follow the Yupangco / Perfect Pitch technique wherein they price ridiculously equivalent to American SRP plus shipping to Manila.  After two to three years, that's the only time that they bring down the price the U.S. Street Price to the new U.S. model comes out at the same street pricing.
At two different points in time, we have two different Bang for Buck values.  BUT the guitar that you really wanted still will sound the same the first time it arrived at Yupangco and three years later.  If you truly stick by bang for the buck, you should be able to forecast when and what the maximum discount will be given before you can purchase.
Here is the kicker, iyon pala naka reserve na para sa kaibigan ng mga taga Yupangco pagkatapos ng tatlong taon.

Case 3: If we consider Clapton's Blackie and SRV's number One which are PRICELESS as numerators, any denominator or price to acquire will do.  Naturally these guitars did command a lot of money at auction.  But clearly if the owners or benefactor of the owners considered the Bang for Buck formula, they would not have sold it an auction for charity.  Why?
Because the Bang for Buck formula says that their guitars will remain priceless forever and its value will increase over time.

The whole reason why I have a bad sounding Charvel is to be able to immediately do a shootout with my 15 other guitars (All of different Electronic Configurations, woods, hardware, scale length, body shape, weight, etc.) with hiyaw.  No need to spend.  Because I have to prove that this property is not design specific but rather wood specific.     
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 07:36:19 PM by firemodel55 »

Offline 7string_highway

  • Senior Member
  • ***
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #52 on: August 02, 2015, 07:52:22 PM »
Yes I can feel a guitar if its a good one or a dull once the moment you strum it even if its unplugged and hear its wood qualities hence guitar luthier choose a specific wood combination on a guitar, an excellent wood always have that ringing quality musically theres a clip of paul from prs in which hes demonstrating some good wood selection by knocking it and produces a very resonant tone to be used that is also one of the reason that finding a great sounding guitar in the pricey category has a higher percentage of getting a great sounding guitar compare to a lower bracket. Your analogy of hearing a good sounding guitar in front of you or a live band compare to a recorded one is somewhat in there its my experience hearing a guitar w/ overtone/hiyaw is half the fun once ikaw yung nag nag gigitara

Also to the guy that says were more interested to the paint brush than monalisa dont forget that you have to have a topnotch paintbrush and topgrade paint to translate more clarity of your artistic ideas into the canvas let alone let your work to stand the test of time si leonardo pa  hes more ahead of his time scientifically and artistically  im sure he dont use a crappy paint, paint brush, canvas and frame when he made the monalisa hehehe. i know what you mean first and foremost you must have the chops and talent but the tools are as impt. As your skill set a great example of this are the shreeders of the 80's yes they have the skills and chops but sounds inferior tonewise compare to the tone of lets say guthrie govan or andy timmons. I'm a firm believer that talent and skills must be pritoterized first and foremost and when youre confident enough on that side of things the music you want to share must be presentable let alone listenable and what good way to convey your talent but to use stuff that can deliver. I know tone is subjective theres a lot of it to be discussed in forums and its fun when we learn from people that knows one just keep an open ear and mind para apply natin sa tone search natin.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2015, 07:58:16 PM by 7string_highway »

Offline royc

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #53 on: August 02, 2015, 10:54:09 PM »
Hearing the wood quality by strumming unplugged uses your ears; you do not feel it. What you feel is just the vibration of the wood.

Offline firemodel55

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #54 on: August 03, 2015, 06:52:08 AM »
Hearing the wood quality by strumming unplugged uses your ears; you do not feel it. What you feel is just the vibration of the wood.

Yeah but your left hand fingers are on the strings and bend the strings to feel the hiyaw.  Though admittedly its harder to experience hiyaw unplugged; its more obvious on amplification.


Offline KennyKen

  • Senior Member
  • ***
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #55 on: August 03, 2015, 08:33:04 AM »
Well, We live in a revolutionary Amp Sim / Amp Sim hybrid age, Does Tone wood matter anymore?

More and more bands like Megadeth and Metallica  are inclined on using the Axe FX on a live gig setting, because Pros really outweigh the Cons compared to a traditional set up
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 08:36:21 AM by KennyKen »

Offline jm the mute

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #56 on: August 03, 2015, 09:12:39 AM »
yung chicken and egg debate na solve na...
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?next=/smart-news/problem-solved-the-egg-came-first-6910803/


itong guitar tone debate hindi pa.
"there is a fine line between art and mukhang T-A-N-G-A"

https://soundcloud.com/jm-the-mute

Offline J_E_K_A

  • Philmusicus Noobitus
  • *
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #57 on: August 03, 2015, 09:25:48 AM »
Yeah but your left hand fingers are on the strings and bend the strings to feel the hiyaw.  Though admittedly its harder to experience hiyaw unplugged; its more obvious on amplification.

...I think Sir Firemodel55 has a point here..."Yeah but your left hand fingers are on the strings and bend the strings to feel the hiyaw"


_____________________________________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________ ______________

Sir 7string_highway also have a point..."Yes I can feel a guitar if its a good one or a dull once the moment you strum it even if its unplugged and hear its wood qualities" [Just by strumming you can sure pin-point the difference between a Lumanog vs a Martin (Right?)  or a Chinese Fake Gibson / Fender from the real thing]..




Offline 7string_highway

  • Senior Member
  • ***
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #58 on: August 03, 2015, 11:07:53 AM »
Yes the vibration of the wood is the very first step to determine if its a good sounding and can translate the note acoustically pleasant and yes that FEELING when string resonates and produces a pleasant vibrant stinging note, you can bend the string and feels it in your hand the and its proper decay of the notes in your chest. In my experience that is how I select a my guitar this is also how I understand that basswood is a very neutral sounding tonewood you can hear its acoutic quality very flat when you strum it compared to a mahogany body guitar which accentuate some mid frequencies that are very present once you plugged it in the amp.   

When it comes to hiyaw whatever term you call it, it is the culmination of all the aspects of the electric guitar and the main ingredient of it is the wood and once you plugged it in a very good pickup and amp it can translate it or enhanced it. To wrap things explaining what hiyaw is in a guitar is not enough you have to bark on that tone journey by yourself though there are people out there that can share its experience but if you yourself haven't experience it you owe it to your ear especially if your serious about your tone we can have a very critical discussion in this thread and its healthy but at the end of the day what matters is the music you create or cover w/ your band there's no replacement to that kind of feeling when you can move your audience in a gig. But we are guitarist right and often not we chase those tone in our head or our heroes and having a great sounding gear is a very big factor in a live performance especially that amp/drums in the room sound and its a diff. topic to discuss with.

Also those big names that are using those high end gear a.k.a axe fx and kemper those gears are very capable and can even match the properly mic traditional rig in a very big event coz you are relying your sound to be delivered via P.A and the level of convenient it brings compare to the  traditional rig. Also those gears acts like a traditional amp the characteristics of your guitar will always be heared these gear are not your typical Digital Gear 10 years ago in which all your guitar sounds the same once you feed it to those modelers of the past. My living deals w/ software development and the Kemper alone having more than 500K lines of code and that's pretty kickass to write those lines of codes and delivers. Also If you are a gigging guitarist and not playing to those big stages then I'll always choose the traditional rig nothing beats amp in the room sound and feel.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 11:16:25 AM by 7string_highway »

Offline firemodel55

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #59 on: August 03, 2015, 11:22:21 AM »
Well, We live in a revolutionary Amp Sim / Amp Sim hybrid age, Does Tone wood matter anymore?

More and more bands like Megadeth and Metallica  are inclined on using the Axe FX on a live gig setting, because Pros really outweigh the Cons compared to a traditional set up

Yes because the Hiyaw does not come from the Axe FX it is 95% coming from the guitar.  Amplification and some other stuff influence it to be more obvious by about 5%.  It comes from tone wood that specifically harmonize with other pieces of tone wood on a guitar.

Offline firemodel55

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #60 on: August 03, 2015, 11:24:12 AM »
yung chicken and egg debate na solve na...
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/ist/?next=/smart-news/problem-solved-the-egg-came-first-6910803/


itong guitar tone debate hindi pa.

Actually wala ng debate.  Mayroon naman talagang hiyaw.  Ayaw lang tangapin ng iba.  :)

Offline j-sonic

  • Veteran Member
  • ****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #61 on: August 03, 2015, 11:56:11 AM »
Yup,merong hiyaw. The issue is third world country lang ang Pinas. Kulang sa exposure sa guitar tone ang mga tao dahil limited lang ang musical genre diyan.

Most people sanay na sa Parokya ni Edgar tone,or Siakol tone. Makarinig man ng gear demos,sa youtube lang.

Karamihan din ng mahilig sa gitara,kulang sa pera para maghanap pa ng magandang tone. Kokomti lang ang katulad mo Mr Firemodel na may passion at wallet para habulin ang tone. Ang madami sa Pinas ngayon ay mga Yukkie ( Young Urban Kupals ) na kumikita na dahil sa uso na ang BPO pero nagkokonyo-konyohan lang at wala naman talagang exposure sa magandang guitar tone dahil puro mga bar bands lang ang napapanood,bukod sa mga upstart bands na kulang pa din sa exposure.

Sabi nga,ang propeta di pinakikinggan sa sariling bayan,kundi binabato at pinapako sa krus. Kahit gawin mo pang maganda ang approach mo sa pagsasabi about hiyaw and tone,marami pa din maninira sayo dahil sa naiinggit lamang at wala silang datung.
This spot is for lease. Please message me for details.

Offline J_E_K_A

  • Philmusicus Noobitus
  • *
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #62 on: August 03, 2015, 12:03:39 PM »
Yup,merong hiyaw. The issue is third world country lang ang Pinas. Kulang sa exposure sa guitar tone ang mga tao dahil limited lang ang musical genre diyan.

Most people sanay na sa Parokya ni Edgar tone,or Siakol tone. Makarinig man ng gear demos,sa youtube lang.

Karamihan din ng mahilig sa gitara,kulang sa pera para maghanap pa ng magandang tone. Kokomti lang ang katulad mo Mr Firemodel na may passion at wallet para habulin ang tone. Ang madami sa Pinas ngayon ay mga Yukkie ( Young Urban Kupals ) na kumikita na dahil sa uso na ang BPO pero nagkokonyo-konyohan lang at wala naman talagang exposure sa magandang guitar tone dahil puro mga bar bands lang ang napapanood,bukod sa mga upstart bands na kulang pa din sa exposure.

Sabi nga,ang propeta di pinakikinggan sa sariling bayan,kundi binabato at pinapako sa krus. Kahit gawin mo pang maganda ang approach mo sa pagsasabi about hiyaw and tone,marami pa din maninira sayo dahil sa naiinggit lamang at wala silang datung.

+10000000000

Straight to the point!! You nailed it po

Offline firemodel55

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #63 on: August 03, 2015, 12:30:36 PM »
Yup,merong hiyaw. The issue is third world country lang ang Pinas. Kulang sa exposure sa guitar tone ang mga tao dahil limited lang ang musical genre diyan.

Most people sanay na sa Parokya ni Edgar tone,or Siakol tone. Makarinig man ng gear demos,sa youtube lang.

Karamihan din ng mahilig sa gitara,kulang sa pera para maghanap pa ng magandang tone. Kokomti lang ang katulad mo Mr Firemodel na may passion at wallet para habulin ang tone. Ang madami sa Pinas ngayon ay mga Yukkie ( Young Urban Kupals ) na kumikita na dahil sa uso na ang BPO pero nagkokonyo-konyohan lang at wala naman talagang exposure sa magandang guitar tone dahil puro mga bar bands lang ang napapanood,bukod sa mga upstart bands na kulang pa din sa exposure.

Sabi nga,ang propeta di pinakikinggan sa sariling bayan,kundi binabato at pinapako sa krus. Kahit gawin mo pang maganda ang approach mo sa pagsasabi about hiyaw and tone,marami pa din maninira sayo dahil sa naiinggit lamang at wala silang datung.

At least you are certainly worth my time.  Kahit ilan kayo para maka tulong ako sa inyo. 

Offline firemodel55

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #64 on: August 03, 2015, 12:39:21 PM »
Right after I accommodate my backlog of guests, I think I will organize a Search and Hunt Party.

Its been sometime since I actually went out to the stores to look for great sounding guitars locally. 

CONCEPT: As a group, we go to stores to try out a certain group of guitars.  This is relatively new and the dynamics will be different.  Its really an experiment on my part to determine how best to communicate hiyaw and how to help people identify if it is present in a guitar.  I used to do it one on one but I think having a manageable small group might actually make it easier -- I hope.  Also, I think a lot of you really want to buy guitars because they are cool and fun.

Group I: Japanese Guitars (New and Mint) -- Tokai , ESP, Ibanez Prestige

Group II: Fender Mexico (New and Mint)

Group III: Fender USA (non-custom shop)

Group IV: Gibson USA (non-custom shop)

If you are interested, sign up.

Offline j-sonic

  • Veteran Member
  • ****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #65 on: August 03, 2015, 12:42:24 PM »
First time na sinama ako ng kaibigan kong puti na may small music store sa Sacramento sa isang gig,na-culture shock ako. Noon lang ako nakapanood ng Jug bands,country bands,Americana. Hardrock at metal ang hilig ko pero nung marinig ko ang guitar tones nila,noon ko na-realize na iba talaga ang kultura ng Pinas pagdating sa instrumento at music in general.

Yung music store ng kaibigan ko,may katagalan na ding nag-ooperate. Mga customers niya ay mga local musicians,Americana,rock n roll,blues ang genre. Nagtitinda rin siya ng vintage at used instruments kaya iniikutan ng mga national touring acts. Minsan dumaan si Joe Bonamassa kasama ang tech niya at bumili ng mga parts,stuff you don't see at Guitar Center. Nagpa-picture kami siyempre wehehe.
This spot is for lease. Please message me for details.

Offline CeL1916

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #66 on: August 03, 2015, 03:27:58 PM »

Sabi nga,ang propeta di pinakikinggan sa sariling bayan,kundi binabato at pinapako sa krus. Kahit gawin mo pang maganda ang approach mo sa pagsasabi about hiyaw and tone,marami pa din maninira sayo dahil sa naiinggit lamang at wala silang datung.

Kung kupal ang propeta why not?
PM Transaction References: Rmansh/Miong_Magno/Pentagram_x/Julandmic09/Vanhatred/Liway77/cyrus2477/jracz_28/ichigo02/
thenameisjm/teddy_munoz/Xelly/haha/ekoy08/kalel_23/sensei_24/lucky/drahcirnna24/r_chino/ilikecarrots

Offline randymarsh

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #67 on: August 03, 2015, 04:39:19 PM »
Ang madami sa Pinas ngayon ay mga Yukkie ( Young Urban Kupals ) na kumikita na dahil sa uso na ang BPO pero nagkokonyo-konyohan lang at wala naman talagang exposure sa magandang guitar tone dahil puro mga bar bands lang ang napapanood,bukod sa mga upstart bands na kulang pa din sa exposure.

Sabi nga,ang propeta di pinakikinggan sa sariling bayan,kundi binabato at pinapako sa krus. Kahit gawin mo pang maganda ang approach mo sa pagsasabi about hiyaw and tone,marami pa din maninira sayo dahil sa naiinggit lamang at wala silang datung.

Seriously?

IBTL  :-D :-D :-D
« Last Edit: August 03, 2015, 04:42:56 PM by randymarsh »
nuno : n4 2.0 n4esa, n4vintage, n4 silver sparkle, n5, n6, n7, n8esa
etc : yjm, axis, jp6, jpxi, jp12, jp13, lp 58 vos, lp 57 ri, lp standard, lp trad, am strat, am tele deluxe, jem7v, uv777, rg prestige, j custom, deluxe reverb, vai legacy, jcm900, axefx

Offline firemodel55

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #68 on: August 03, 2015, 05:53:11 PM »
Kung kupal ang propeta why not?

Wala naman propeta na hindi kupal... Ang mas malaking problema mga taong bingi na hindi marunong makinig.

Offline CeL1916

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #69 on: August 03, 2015, 11:08:37 PM »
Wala naman propeta na hindi kupal... Ang mas malaking problema mga taong bingi na hindi marunong makinig.

Haha parang kris aquino no? Pag nagsalita akala mo opinyon lang niya ang mahalaga at siya ang benchmark ng kahit ano.

Seriously i really do believe that expensive guitar is far more superior than cheaper ones and mid end guitars. Now does it bother me if a really good guitar player on a bar is playing an epiphone and not a gil yaron? nope! Music is what matters, if its good its good. If given the chance/money would i buy one? Of course. Would i preach about it like its the most important thing and be an @ss about it? No.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 12:07:24 AM by CeL1916 »
PM Transaction References: Rmansh/Miong_Magno/Pentagram_x/Julandmic09/Vanhatred/Liway77/cyrus2477/jracz_28/ichigo02/
thenameisjm/teddy_munoz/Xelly/haha/ekoy08/kalel_23/sensei_24/lucky/drahcirnna24/r_chino/ilikecarrots

Offline firemodel55

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #70 on: August 04, 2015, 04:54:25 AM »
Haha parang kris aquino no? Pag nagsalita akala mo opinyon lang niya ang mahalaga at siya ang benchmark ng kahit ano.

Seriously i really do believe that expensive guitar is far more superior than cheaper ones and mid end guitars. Now does it bother me if a really good guitar player on a bar is playing an epiphone and not a gil yaron? nope! Music is what matters, if its good its good. If given the chance/money would i buy one? Of course. Would i preach about it like its the most important thing and be an @ss about it? No.

I welcome various opinions.  I am just here to say that Hiyaw is the important factor -- more precisely as indicator for guitar with mojo.  As to whether you like your guitar sound bright or dull, twangy or heavy, hollow or solid, single coil or humbucker, etc, its all cool with me.
I do not like Kris Aquino because she pretends to be exposed when she is not.  Its all her about her.  Its not about me, but God or maybe some higher power, willed the existence of guitars with mojo.  I am just a messenger who earned a lot of exposure to some of the great guitar gear in the world.

I agree with you that Music matters but I want to qualify up to a certain point.  If it starts sounding bad, it stops mattering because your ear shuts down.

If you have the right to your silence of speech, I choose to exercise my freedom of speech to preach.  Because I dislike it when other people are victimized by gear that do not perform or sound bad.  This is my advocacy.  And if you cannot appreciate then you are a bigger @ss than I for the simple reason that you are shutting yourself out of learning something that will benefit you.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 04:59:54 AM by firemodel55 »

Offline royc

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #71 on: August 04, 2015, 08:30:09 AM »
The way I see it, the problem here is your insistence on using the term “hiyaw” without the capability to explain what it is exactly. All the explanations I have read so far are explainable by universally accepted terms like tone and playability. Had you used these terms instead, then I would have agreed with most of your arguments.

Tone is a characteristic of what we hear and it is a result of the signal chain:

1.   How the strings are played
2.   How the guitar converts the string vibrations to electrical signal, including the vibration fed back to the strings by the wood.
3.   How the added effects enhance the sound.
4.   How the amp amplifies the signal while colorizing the signal.
5.   How the speaker converts and colorizes the signal to sound so we can hear it.
6.   How the room acoustics, or the lack of it, affect the sound that we hear.

I believe that your expensive guitars possess the tone that many guitarists would love to have. However, we have different priorities when it comes to financial matters. Collectors only want the best. For working musicians, it makes sense to buy guitars whose price is proportional to their earnings from gigs. For bedroom musicians, an affordable guitar with acceptable tone and playability would suffice, unless they have excess income to buy guitars that are more expensive.

Only our ears can hear the tone. There is no way for our sense of touch to identify a good sounding guitar or not. The vibration you feel from guitars with aged wood is not a guarantee that it will have a great tone. I can feel the vibration of all my past MIJ guitars, but not all of them had a great tone in my opinion.

Is hiyaw a feeling that has to be experienced? I cannot describe the feeling when I played my vintage Greco LP with 57 Classic pups on a cranked Blues Junior. I can feel the vibration on my chest and hear the rattling of the walls. The guitar was very responsive to the touch. Did I call it hiyaw? No. The feeling was a reaction to what I heard and felt. Was the tone better than your guitar? I believe it was not, but I love it nevertheless.

Playability affects both the tone and how the guitarist is able to play the guitar, depending on his musical preference. It is my expectation that high-end guitars, especially custom-made guitars, have the best playability out of the box. However, a good tech or luthier can make a non-custom guitar playable if the materials and workmanship are good.

I agree that guitarists, especially beginners, should be educated on how to choose a guitar with good tone and acceptable playability. However, let us not confuse them with terms that we cannot explain without asking them to go to your place to experience it.


Offline analog.matt

  • Forum Fanatic
  • ****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #72 on: August 04, 2015, 09:43:06 AM »
20 to 80 Hz

"This range is your true low end. The bottom half of this range (20 Hz to 40 Hz) is more felt than heard. In this range, it can be very hard to discern a true pitch. Most speaker systems, even high-end studio monitors, don't even produce sound accurately in this range, if at all. For reference, an Imperial Bosendorfer extended grand piano starts at the note F0 (21.8 Hz fundamental) and your normal concert grand starts at A0 (27.5 Hz fundamental) – and even those notes are hard to tune at their fundamental. The upper half (40 Hz to 80 Hz) is where the lowest note of the four-string bass (fundamental E at 41 Hz) comes into play. This is that rumbly bottom end you feel in your chest when you hear it."

now on the other side of the scale

10k Hz and beyond

"These are the extreme highs. This is where frequency response starts to experience dropouts like it did in the low end, but for the opposite reasons. Sometimes it's because the transducer of a microphone may not be able to accurately respond to these frequencies, but sometimes it's because people can literally not hear things going on in this range. (High-end hearing in this realm is usually the first to go.) These frequencies can best be described as "air." That heady, open quality to a sound usually results from good representation of overtones in this range. Now, before you go pegging out all your EQs at 10 to 12k Hz to add airiness, also understand that simply boosting this range won't give you anything but noise if nothing exists there to begin with. For example, jingle a set of car keys. That really crispy, bell-like quality of the keys hitting one another is what we refer to in this air range. Can’t hear it? Don't worry, I know a number of incredible mix engineers who I'm nearly positive are deaf to anything above 14k Hz, and they still do incredible work. "

"The sounds that are “beyond” the human range of hearing and ones that you can only feel. They are known as “harmonic frequencies” which are musical notes that can reach outside the “hearing range” while the ones you can hear are known as “fundamental frequencies“. Instruments in particular have a great variation in harmonic frequencies as the frequency for each note is different on each instrument allowing you to tell they are well… Different instruments."


another problem kasi is experience and exposure kasi hindi natin kinalakihan etong mga gitarang to. kung arnis man lang to, or something inherent sa culture natin then we may know better. but this is something that steven seagal or richard gere would know because they grew up with these things. (unfortunately, Filipino oldies --those who grew up playing in the 50s, 60s, 70s do not have time for Philmusic. they also laugh at the know it alls here whenever they hear the stories.)

but problem is, many of us are like blind men trying to validate their experience to those who have experienced the real thing.

hence to avoid that, on a personal level this is what i do

1. i visit people with great gears (great tone of course)
2. visit vintage stores and play what i can play -- and spend time doing so
3. visit used guitar stores for the semi vintage variety and modern guitars
4. interview people with direct experience of good gear (ie interview the owner of the vintage shop who are usually collectors too)
5. interview people who have been in this field. its like what alex does with the ones he meets in the US.

by doing this, instead of being defensive, im opening my cup of tea so i can learn more. what i reject i dont throw away, i keep pa din. because growth is constant and i may understand it better later in the future.

iba kasi ang Truth sa Business. hindi ka kikita sa Truth. kahit nga sa mga relihyon ang truth minamanipulate eh. gitara pa kaya.

what i've learned too from the local used stores here is they don't shut me out. I mentioned "Callaham made guitar" one time and one of them ran to me as i was going out and asked, "just would like to ask for the sake of knowing...what's this Callaham guitar that you mentioned and etc etc. "  yun ang good attitude when it comes to learning. and this is why pinas is having a hard time getting away from 3rd world culture because masyado marami know it all.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 10:02:07 AM by analog.matt »

Offline royc

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #73 on: August 04, 2015, 09:59:11 AM »
"The sounds that are “beyond” the human range of hearing and ones that you can only feel. They are known as “harmonic frequencies” which are musical notes that can reach outside the “hearing range” while the ones you can hear are known as “fundamental frequencies“. Instruments in particular have a great variation in harmonic frequencies as the frequency for each note is different on each instrument allowing you to tell they are well… Different instruments."

You forgot to mention that guitar amp speakers cannot reproduce these harmonic frequencies. Even if I play an electric guitar that can produce harmonic frequencies, I cannot play it through the amp and would mostly be drowned by the suported frequencies.

As an example, the frequency range for a Celestion Vintage 30 is 70-5000Hz.

Source:
http://celestion.com/product/1/vintage_30/


Even most electric guitar pickups are not full range.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2015, 10:25:23 AM by royc »

Offline firemodel55

  • Philmusicus Addictus
  • *****
Re: Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang
« Reply #74 on: August 04, 2015, 09:59:34 AM »
The way I see it, the problem here is your insistence on using the term “hiyaw” without the capability to explain what it is exactly. All the explanations I have read so far are explainable by universally accepted terms like tone and playability. Had you used these terms instead, then I would have agreed with most of your arguments.

(Its a new term in itself.  So I cannot explain it in common terms.  I have defined tone as timbre.  With regards to playability -- for me thats a function of set up.)

Tone is a characteristic of what we hear and it is a result of the signal chain: (I have defined tone or timbre as different from Hiyaw.  I did not use the common slang word 'tone' as used by guitarists.)

1.   How the strings are played
2.   How the guitar converts the string vibrations to electrical signal, including the vibration fed back to the strings by the wood.
3.   How the added effects enhance the sound.
4.   How the amp amplifies the signal while colorizing the signal.
5.   How the speaker converts and colorizes the signal to sound so we can hear it.
6.   How the room acoustics, or the lack of it, affect the sound that we hear.

I believe that your expensive guitars possess the tone that many guitarists would love to have. However, we have different priorities when it comes to financial matters. Collectors only want the best. For working musicians, it makes sense to buy guitars whose price is proportional to their earnings from gigs. For bedroom musicians, an affordable guitar with acceptable tone and playability would suffice, unless they have excess income to buy guitars that are more expensive.
(Both my Expensive and Not so Expensive Guitars have tone (timbre) plus hiyaw.  I am NOT a collector.  I consider myself a passionate hobbyist of great electric guitar tone.  I have nothing against working musicians with working man guitars.  But... maybe they can also learn something from me.)   

Only our ears can hear the tone. There is no way for our sense of touch to identify a good sounding guitar or not. The vibration you feel from guitars with aged wood is not a guarantee that it will have a great tone. I can feel the vibration of all my past MIJ guitars, but not all of them had a great tone in my opinion.
(Yes.  Ears can hear tone.  It can also hear a bullhorn or car horn but the bullhorn will not connect to you and your feelings because it does not have Hiyaw. My 15 guitars are not all made of Aged Wood only a few are.  And thats my point, you don't need aged wood to get Hiyaw. Hiyaw is not limited to vibration.  Even a pinch harmonic has a vibration.) 

Is hiyaw a feeling that has to be experienced? I cannot describe the feeling when I played my vintage Greco LP with 57 Classic pups on a cranked Blues Junior. I can feel the vibration on my chest and hear the rattling of the walls. The guitar was very responsive to the touch. Did I call it hiyaw? No. The feeling was a reaction to what I heard and felt. Was the tone better than your guitar? I believe it was not, but I love it nevertheless.
(Hiyaw is different from a Greco Lp with 57 Classic pups on a cranked Blues Junior.  A Greco LP with 57 classics pups that has hiyaw on a cranked Blues Junior will still sound different and more responsive and toneful.)
Playability affects both the tone and how the guitarist is able to play the guitar, depending on his musical preference. It is my expectation that high-end guitars, especially custom-made guitars, have the best playability out of the box. However, a good tech or luthier can make a non-custom guitar playable if the materials and workmanship are good.
(As I pointed out earlier, even without proper set up; a guitar with Hiyaw will have it. A guitar either has it or it does not.  A guitar without hiyaw cannot be given hiyaw by any tech or luthier.)
I agree that guitarists, especially beginners, should be educated on how to choose a guitar with good tone and acceptable playability. However, let us not confuse them with terms that we cannot explain without asking them to go to your place to experience it.
(When I discuss hiyaw, it is not meant to address beginners.  It is meant to address guitarist who are really into the instrument and want the best for themselves.  Eh Kung Anne Curtiss lang iyan, it will be a waste of my time.)