The Fletcher-Munson Effect (& why the big divide among guitar modellers vs.amps)

[skunkyfunk]

Sometimes when I am bored in my studio I try downloading as many amp and amp sim clips available on the net.  While most amp sim clips tend to be less "airy", in a mix scenario, the less-airiness seems to be thrown out of the window.  Add a tad more reverb, you're quite ok.

But here's the thing about amp clips and amp sims... granting that both methods are done correctly, they start to sound "alike" because you're listening to them on similar volume levels.  For instance, if you are maxing out your monitors with 6" woofers, you may not feel the bottom of a dimed 100W Plexi through a 4x12 cab.   Slap in a Plexi patch on your PODXT, you would notice that there is a lot of similarity with the sound. 

That is because of the Fletcher Munson effect - we hear things differently at different volume levels.  In order to appreciate recording uber loud instruments (liked cranked amps for instance), the ability to play the recordings back just as loud as the source  (granting you record the instruments properly) is the means to satisfaction. 

Another benefit of using real amps vs. DI modellers depicting the Fletcher-Munson effect is during tracking.  Say you have a huge amp in the live room, and you snake your guitar cable to the amp from the control room, and do takes there.  From experience, I honestly think that some nuances are more apparent during tracking despite the isolation of the amp.  But once it is playback time, modeller sounds catch up with recorded amp sounds.

I am not here to say amps are better than modellers to avoid the flaming,  I am just here to say that in order to appreciate modellers, the ability to reproduce the same volume levels of the amp it models helps in inspiring the player to get the best takes.  Or better yet, use an amp.

Peace!

[inigo]

The use of an amp vs a modeler affects the guitar player more than the recording guy!

[KitC]

Oh man... here we go again. Someone pass the popcorn!

Skunk, some great tunes have been recorded thru a 15 watt practice amp. In most cases, it wasn't the volume and size of the amp and cab, or the 'quality', or the brand or whatever BS you allow yourself to believe. It was always the sound. How can you resort to FM curves when some even go thru the extent of putting cabs inside isolation cabinets so that they don't disturb the neighbors? So where is that FM curve when the cab is in iso, or the cab is under a think blanket so your mic doesn't capture the room reflections? It's only a placebo effect if all you want to feel is the volume hitting you.

Remember, often during mixing, the sound of a cab when soloed, is not what you expect to hear because sometimes, in the context of the mix, that sometimes thin soloed sound is what works for the song.

[inigo]

Easy, Kit. He did say this:

From experience, I honestly think that some nuances are more apparent during tracking despite the isolation of the amp.  But once it is playback time, modeller sounds catch up with recorded amp sounds.

As a guy who plays guitar myself (non-professionally), I have to agree. I play differently if plugged into an amp compared to plugged into a modeler. I'm not talking anything about the sound that's produced (and can be recorded), but the way I play.

[KitC]

The thing is, it's so easy to get distracted by Fletcher Munson curves, eq settings and other nitpicks that one loses sight of the performance. That's why modelers and reamping were created, so that one can get into groove and belt out a ripping performance, then massage the tone later. I don't think George Martin would have stopped John in the middle of a take since the FM curves were a bit off.

[alroyT]

dang skunk lahat ng forum at least may 4x for each,sipag mo pre.Meron bang Threader of the year contest ba dito hahaha

[alroyT]

Im gonna stick to the Guy-Pip effect as opposed to Fletche-MoonMe effect

[alroyT]

And pls Skunk dont bring up why Ed Kramer or Mr.Martin didnt have that technology crap we have today BS.The Beatles songs that you are listening today on CD or that Are you Experienced? album have been DIGITALLY remastered 100x for your listening pleasure by software such as Seqouia and others,that's why they sound soooo good.The guy who remastered Jimi's axis bold album was even featured on Discovery channel.You should have heard the original master tapes,those plexis sounded like plaster.Dont get me wrong,all my amps are toobs,but digital is here to stay.Those digital hisses you hear?Theyre lack of sleep from posting endless threads.Its a lost cause man give it up.Peace to you.

[starfugger]

most of the time a guitar performance is inspired by raging tones coming from an amp cranked to ungodly levels.  guitarists tend to like it when they feel the vibrations from the amp.

however i doubt that a regular listener would crank his compnent to high heavens like a guitar player would his amp. 

to not get fooled by the FM curve, i listen/mix  at different levels ...

But here's the thing about amp clips and amp sims... granting that both methods are done correctly, they start to sound "alike" because you're listening to them on similar volume levels.  For instance, if you are maxing out your monitors with 6" woofers, you may not feel the bottom of a dimed 100W Plexi through a 4x12 cab.   Slap in a Plexi patch on your PODXT, you would notice that there is a lot of similarity with the sound. 

we usually dont mix guitars in their full eq spectrum anyway.  experience-wise though, i still prefer recording amps.  however, if i finally get myself a POD i would definitely start doing things differently

[skunkyfunk]

And pls Skunk dont bring up why Ed Kramer or Mr.Martin didnt have that technology crap we have today BS.The Beatles songs that you are listening today on CD or that Are you Experienced? album have been DIGITALLY remastered 100x for your listening pleasure by software such as Seqouia and others,that's why they sound soooo good.

So are you saying the vinyl dudes who say that the remasters of the above mentioned material are crap are lying? 

The guy who remastered Jimi's axis bold album was even featured on Discovery channel.You should have heard the original master tapes,those plexis sounded like plaster.Dont get me wrong,all my amps are toobs,but digital is here to stay.Those digital hisses you hear?Theyre lack of sleep from posting endless threads.Its a lost cause man give it up.Peace to you.

Master tapes?  Do you really know what was presented in the Discovery Channel?  Are they MASTER TAPES or are they MULTI-TRACK TAPES?  We can agree that to some extent, mastering can enhance a mix, but it also CAN DESTROY  a classic mix.  Why are people requesting a re-master for Peter Frampton's comes Alive CD?  Why are they saying the Led Zep remasters killed the Bonham drum sound?  I know there is a problem with Digital Media in terms of accurate sound reproduction in terms of FEEL.  And many agree to that. 

And the mere fact that mastering cured the problems in the mix means the tracking was done well, despite the technological problems of the 60s.  And don't get me wrong, my idea of liking amps in a recording stems from the fact that most of guitar heroes (60s - present) use them.  While some admittedly use PODs, they use them not to gain their main sound.

And the topic of this thread is about the Fletcher-Munson effect and not your idols Guy and Pip.

[skunkyfunk]

Skunk, some great tunes have been recorded thru a 15 watt practice amp.

Sir may I ask what songs are you referring to and what amps were used for such?

In most cases, it wasn't the volume and size of the amp and cab, or the 'quality', or the brand or whatever BS you allow yourself to believe. It was always the sound.

Have to agree, but I am not saying Marshall is better than a Mesa or some uber-expensive boutique amp is bestestest for the recording.  All I am saying is that having the ability to hear different amps vs. modellers gives the artist the power to discern what can make him perform his best during tracking.  Billy Gibbons and Joe Perry have recorded through solidstate Marshall Lead 12 amps (12W amps with 10" speakers) but they also used uber-loud Marshall Plexis as well.  It was all about the song and using what works for it.

How can you resort to FM curves when some even go thru the extent of putting cabs inside isolation cabinets so that they don't disturb the neighbors? So where is that FM curve when the cab is in iso, or the cab is under a think blanket so your mic doesn't capture the room reflections? It's only a placebo effect if all you want to feel is the volume hitting you.

Sir with all due respect I have to disagree.  When people put 4x12s in iso cabs, the main goal is to get the most minimal room reflections, which alters the sound, or if the band plays live, that is  to minimize bleed.  True enough.  But that doesn't mean I will be less-inspired if I tame down the volume of a 100W monster to a more "recordable" level.  So is Slash doing things wrongly when he plays in front of his half-stack beside wedge stage monitors blasting through him, while an extension cab is placed in iso booth where his tones are being recorded?  Of course he goes back and forth from the iso, live and control rooms to see if there are any discrepancies with the recorded or produced tones.  Say I were an engineer for him, I guess he would be offended if I would tell him, "Slash, I think we can nail the same tone if we would use a PODXT so I guess we're wasting time setting this rig up."

Remember, often during mixing, the sound of a cab when soloed, is not what you expect to hear because sometimes, in the context of the mix, that sometimes thin soloed sound is what works for the song.

And vice-versa.  Sometimes a scooped-up guitar sound may initially sound thin, but for a mix it can sound good.  So that is why there should be test record tones over a mix.  That is not just to hear the soloed-out sound, but to hear if it works within the song's context as well.

[KitC]

While some admittedly use PODs, they use them not to gain their main sound.

Dude, some of the pros DO use the pod to get their main sound. Don't delude yourself into believing otherwise.

About 15 watt amps, Jethro Tull's Barre recorded 3 albums: Crest of a Knave, Under Wraps, and Rock Island with a 15-watt Marshall Studio which he took off from the combo case and had rack mounted. Joe Walsh recorded with a 15-watt Fender Champ for some of the Eagles albums. Jimmy Page used a Supro Trojan for the first Led Zep album. I was reading somewhere that Jeff Beck used at 15-watt amp but I can't find that specific article. Even Duran Duran's John Taylor used a 15 watter for his solo album (if memory serves me right, that was mentioned in an EM article). I could go on but you could also google that yourself.

Going back to Fletcher-Munson, just the other night, I saw the FM curve in all it's horrible live glory. It was an indie production where several bands (11 I think) played 3 songs each. 3 or 4 bands who took the middle slots all played in screamo style. All I can say that it was a mudfest of sound with nothing intelligible since every instrument, and even vocals, was going on full spectrum. The bands after that selection sounded lame since I think the house tech dialed down the PA volume or our ears got accustomed to the sonic assault. Either way, the last 3 bands didn't get a fair chance at being heard properly.

[markthevirtuoso]

Just to break the record even more, Clapton used a $20 battery-powered Pignose amp for the Layla sessions, while Duanne used a 10watt Fender Champ... not the most imposing DB deliverers as such, eh.

[alroyT]

Master tapes?  Do you really know what was presented in the Discovery Channel?  Are they MASTER TAPES or are they MULTI-TRACK TAPES?  We can agree that to some extent, mastering can enhance a mix, but it also CAN DESTROY  a classic mix.  Why are people requesting a re-master for Peter Frampton's comes Alive CD?  Why are they saying the Led Zep remasters killed the Bonham drum sound?  I know there is a problem with Digital Media in terms of accurate sound reproduction in terms of FEEL.  And many agree to that. 

DUH,When I say tapes were you thinking of your cassette tapes?When I mentioned the word MASTER that didnt give you a clue?And wtf now your questioning me if I really knew what was presented in discvery Channel?Dude i watched it on english not in portugese.Parang gusto mo palabasin hindi ko naintindihan yung pinanood ko?FYI hndi ako yung nagmumukang [chewbacca] dito sa forum.Honestly u never heard of the Layla sessions when they used a 5 or 10 watt amp?Baka multuhin ka ni Duane.

ps what do u have against guy n pip?Bubot at Vi ka ba?

[xjepoyx]

googled

Elvis Costello

"You know, a lot of playing the guitar in a wild fashion has to do with a lack of fear. If you're incredibly dexterous, which I am not, obviously you have the facility to do that. But when we were recording 'Dust,' I was sitting in the control room with my Silvertone guitar running out into a little Sears Roebuck 15-watt amp, with some kind of distortion device between them-and somewhere in the middle of it, I just went mad. And the guys came in and said, 'Wow, that was quite good!' " He laughs. "It was like they were kind of surprised, you know! And when we listened back, it had sort of the right kind of fire-it wasn't, like, elegant or anything.

Vic Flick

"For 'The James Bond Theme' original recording, I used a Clifford Essex Paragon Cello Bodied F Hole guitar fitted with a DeAmond Guitar Pick Up. This was played through a DeAmond Volume Pedal into a Vox 15 Watt Amplifier. The orchestra was recorded in one pass - no 48 track recording then! This gave the guitar sound a special added dimension due to the spill from the guitar amp picked up by adjacent microphones, adding high end and other ambient qualities. Needless to say, different recordings of Bond have had different feels to them. I worked hard to combine my nostalgic memories of back then with a discreet but moving updating of everyone's favourite tunes for JAMES BOND NOW. Enjoy!

Artist:   JANDEK
Title:   Put My Dream On This Planet
Label:   CORWOOD INDUSTRIES
Format:   CD
Price:   $7.00
Catalog #:   COR 0767

"Record number twenty-nine in the ever growing oeuvre of Jandek, and it's certainly a head-scratcher. No guitar, no drums, no piano, just him rambling on for a small eternity in a sort of song/speech mode on two lengthy and one very short tracks; all of it sounding kind of like it was recorded though a 15 watt Peavey Bandit amp with a broken reverb spring and a noise-gate pedal. Eerie (some might say annoying or god awful), almost bluesy hiss bathed vocals are separated by some rather lengthy periods of complete silence, covering some of the places and 'feelings' that populate his other records so vividly. Reading into it a bit (for in this place everything means something), we see that his last record ended with 'The Beginning' (!) -- a 15+ vocal-less (!) piano 'meditation' which certainly clouded the waters when it dropped -- which can now be viewed as an intro to this new a capella recording...you get the idea. So then, as concrete poetry it's not so hot, and as some kind of Out Blues piece, it's actually rather dire, but viewed in the microscope of the Jandekian Canon, it's pretty massive, and that's saying something too." -- Billy Kiely

[starfugger]

i have been considering a small toob amp lately, something i could drive to its limit without getting me evicted.

the way i see it there are two major concerns that crop up here:

1.  the guitarists monitor (and his monitoring levels)
2.  the actual recorded sound

we all know that the actual sound of the amp is not EXACTLY what we get when recording.  a lot of the recorded sound will also depend on our choice of recording equipment and the way we position the mic/s in the room.  in any case we CAN get close to the amp sound.  sometimes strangely the amp sounds different in the room compared to the recorded signal. 

it's easy to circumvent the FM effect when recording, and i don't see how it can "fool" an experienced engineer during an A/B test... unless one exposes himself to super loud levels for a considerable period of time inside the tracking room (which might temporarily impair his/her judgment). 

like i said, we don't normally listen at the levels we record our amps (lord, we'd probably go deaf in six months).

[skunkyfunk]

I have news:  The ZVex Nano amp is a 0.5 Watt all-tube monster.  But owners agree IT IS LOUD ENOUGH TO PUSH A 100W 4x12. 

Let me get this straight.  I have used practice amps, and some sound GREAT.  All the more if you hear a cranked up Fender Champ or Supro.  But everyone seems to miss the point.  I am not all for loudness.  What I am saying is that the effect of using different amps makes us appreciate the concept of the Fletcher Munson effect.  And by saying that Joe Walsh, Duane Allman, and all those guitar greats, used practice (tube most of the time) amps in the studio is testament that the air being pushed by amps is what they enjoy most.  But by using a DI modeller, all of a sudden, a 100W Plexi patch, or a 5W Champ patch, work on the same volume level, depending on the monitoring conditions in the studio.   And for me, I don't get the point when people bring up the concept of practice amps being used in the studio as, in the first place, I've been saying it time and again that using different amps in different songs in different production scenarios produces different levels of inspiration for different players.  Does loudness have something to do with it?  YES, IN A HEARTBEAT.  But more than the volume, is the character of different amplifiers and how they sound so differently at different volumes.  Modellers do not exemplify this trait as you are working within the loudest volume level your monitoring can muster. 

When I was in 3rd year high school, I had an El Cheapo 10W Genesis Amp.  After 2 years I owned a glorious Zoom 1010 pedal.  For some reason, I was able to fake some EVH sounds with those gear, because whenever I listened to a Boombox, they sounded similar.  But what I did not know was once I start recording my rig using a mic and a cassette recorded, it would sound completely different from EVH's Plexis.  That was because I had no idea of the Fletcher Munson phenomenon. 

[skunkyfunk]

Just to break the record even more, Clapton used a $20 battery-powered Pignose amp for the Layla sessions, while Duanne used a 10watt Fender Champ... not the most imposing DB deliverers as such, eh.

Yup, and Clapton used a 50W JTM45 (or was it a 1987x 50W) during the Cream Sessions.  In this case, I am saying different amps for different tastes for different periods. 

[skunkyfunk]

DUH,When I say tapes were you thinking of your cassette tapes?

YES. 

Seriously what I was asking was if they were presenting the mixdowns or individual tracks.  Because almost every remastering project for 4-track classic recordings necessitate cleaning up the individual tracks.

Parang gusto mo palabasin hindi ko naintindihan yung pinanood ko?

YES 

FYI hndi ako yung nagmumukang [chewbacca] dito sa forum.

I don't think nagmumukhang [chewbacca] ang isang tao kapag may iba kang opinyon sa nararami. 

Honestly u never heard of the Layla sessions when they used a 5 or 10 watt amp?Baka multuhin ka ni Duane.

You don't have to list down all the amps used in each and every classic recording in existence.  It is the variety of these amps (both timbre and volume) which makes us appreciate the tracking experience if given the chance to use each and every one of them for different projects.  With modellers, you're stuck with one domain of loudness levels unless you use some amp with it like an Atomic Reactor 112 (which needs miking). 

ps what do u have against guy n pip?Bubot at Vi ka ba?

I am more Nestor-Nida.

[titser_marco]

I dunno, but as a player and a non-engineer, here's my humble take on the matter. A bit OT, I know. My apologies.

Modellers try to cop the sound of an amp on tape (as opposed to the sound of an amp in front of you), and as such, I generally feel that they can be one-dimensional in that sense because there are other things that happen when you play through an amp and get miked. I feel that most of which can't be captured by modelers. I dunno, but to connect it to the FM curve, I feel that most modelers try to compensate for it by raising some of the underemphasized frequencies when playing at low volumes. I guess that's one of the factors why some people consider it to be unnatural because the frequencies that are supposed to be more emphasized in a high volume scenario are being boosted in a low volume context.

BUT will that stop me from using a POD? No. I'll take it as another sound source, period. If it can give me something that I'm looking for and the amps can't give it, it's going to be an easy source, and vice versa. What's saddening though, is that people look for that device first before even checking out the amps,which is fine if you're all for convenience. But if you're really serious about tone, then you'll try out all options - POD, direct and amps all included.

[alroyT]

I don't think nagmumukhang [chewbacca] ang isang tao kapag may iba kang opinyon sa nararami. 

bakit ikaw ba tinutukoy ko?Tinamaan ka ba?Kaya nga walang hospital para jan eh  

[skunkyfunk]

bakit ikaw ba tinutukoy ko?Tinamaan ka ba?Kaya nga walang hospital para jan eh 

Bakit sinabi ko bang ako? 

[skunkyfunk]

Modellers try to cop the sound of an amp on tape (as opposed to the sound of an amp in front of you), and as such, I generally feel that they can be one-dimensional in that sense because there are other things that happen when you play through an amp and get miked. I feel that most of which can't be captured by modelers. I dunno, but to connect it to the FM curve, I feel that most modelers try to compensate for it by raising some of the underemphasized frequencies when playing at low volumes. I guess that's one of the factors why some people consider it to be unnatural because the frequencies that are supposed to be more emphasized in a high volume scenario are being boosted in a low volume context.

That's what i was pointing out. 

BUT will that stop me from using a POD? No. I'll take it as another sound source, period. If it can give me something that I'm looking for and the amps can't give it, it's going to be an easy source, and vice versa. What's saddening though, is that people look for that device first before even checking out the amps,which is fine if you're all for convenience. But if you're really serious about tone, then you'll try out all options - POD, direct and amps all included.

Using a POD is just another tool.  But the way I look at it, some people tend to look at it as a cure-all, and quite frankly, others even mark it as a fate sealer to a miked-up amp setup.   

[alroyT]

you can google all your life and quote all the text book in the world still nothing can change everyone's opinion,and stop using the words"everyones missing the point",Its malignantly annoying.When I was learning Clapton and heard about the Layla sessions and the famous pignose amp,I was flabberghasted.Ikaw na suppose to be some kinda sound engineer or whatever was totally oblivious about it.Dapat that event was suppose to be in every sound engineer's bingo book.Sayang lang mga text book at kaka google mo pards,madami pang palay....

[alroyT]

Bakit sinabi ko bang ako? 

bakit ikaw ba tinutukoy ko?Tinamaan ka ba?Kaya nga walang hospital para jan eh  

thats a nice family pic hahaha daughter staring at dad?thanks for sharing