To Vintage or NOT to Vintage Guitar (My Opinion)

[firemodel55]

Definition of Terms: Vintage are 50s to Early 70s Fender and Gibson MADE IN USA -- thats it at this point in time. I am NOT including the other brands.  I do not have experience with Japanese Guitars from the 60s to early 70s -- so obviously those are NOT included.

I myself am a skeptic because most of the past vintage guitars I tested were meh AND most of the locally available vintage guitars may kasamang kuwento na wala naman talagang kinalaman sa tunog.

As I mentioned before, I had tested 3 original bursts -- 58, 59, and 60 before in Japan and was to my ears just OK in terms of hiyaw.  But at the back of my mind, I always kept the door open -- baka naman kung makasubok ka ng killer vintage guitar mas maganda kaysa bago?

Well, unfortunately, I met a few of these killer vintage guitars in the context of a complete inventory of other vintage guitars of the same year and model.  In short, I was able to compare and mind you not just two pieces of each make and year but a minimum of 3 pieces ABed into a 50 watt metal panel and 100 watt modified plexi. 

And this time across FOUR bursts, I was able to pick out a killer sounding 59 valued at P20million.  And yes, a killer sounding 59 is more than words can describe.  It simply is an amazing guitar.

Also, I learnt that when it comes to era or periods -- there are dogs and there killer sounding guitars.  So regardless of what you read, each brand's historical period will have great sounding guitars regardless of construction, owner, paint color, finish, etc.

What you are paying for in a correctly selected vintage guitar is: VIBE and KILLER SOUND.  So in my perspective you get the old wood or at least Gibson & Fender had woods that sounded great at their prime, plus the aging of the pickups, composition of hardware, paint and finish formula and most importantly -- it being a guitar for 60-70 years.  So could you say that would it be a Bo Derek in today's era?  Definitely NOT!!!  I would think it similar to fine wine aged thru the centuries.   



Key Facts: 
There will be more great sounding modern guitars than there will be vintage guitars due to greater production volumes.  In short, plenty of vintage guitars -- a great majority are duds.
No matter how accurate vintage repros are whether Made in Japan or Custom Shop, its not the same.
The great sounding vintage guitars are flexible enough to be played in any genre of music BECAUSE its really the amp that carries the timbre of guitar sound.
Its you who follows the vintage guitar if you want to keep its value.  If you do make a decision to make it a player's guitar, its a personal choice with expensive consequences BUT greater personal satisfaction specially if its a killer sounding vintage guitar.


Bottomline: If you have excess coin, go ahead buy what you can afford.  What the great sounding vintage guitar is: mas malambot na tunog na rich while at the same time tama ang tunog sa tenga.  Its a property I feel that newer guitars will never have.  You could say that I was wrong because Great Sounding Vintage Guitars bring something to the table uniquely theirs.  I mean there is no stopping you from putting in that Bareknuckle Pickups and Floyd Rose on a burst and hopefully those qualities that made it great still stay in the same amount but just maybe being what it is -- is good enough.

[shodawmoon]

 

[guitaricci]

Kirk Hammett used the Peter Green Les Paul sa Hardwired album and i think he gigs with it currently. So itong mga vintage gibson bursts ay pwede rin pang thrash metal. haha

If i had 20 million pesos...di ako bibili ng legit 59. Reissue na lng siguro ng Beano Burst, Fool SG, 1964 ES 335 TDC and a 70's Firebird V.  Samahan mo na rin siguro ng Marshall JTM45. 

[analog.matt]

well, if i had 20 million and can't afford to keep it long term,  i'd buy it, keep if for a few years, be intimate with its sound, then let go. at least na experience ko and learned from it. who knows maybe down the line i might eventually be able to afford to keep it long term.

imo, walang tatalo sa magandang old wood. in fact sabi ni Yaron, mahirap makahanap ng magandang kahoy that will make the sound clear, not muddy etc etc. so he ended up making those highly adjustable pickups that he puts on his The Bone guitar. In other words, if wala kang mapapala sa kahoy, bumawi ka na lang sa pickups.  pero sa akin, iba pa din yung maganda ang kahoy. iba kasi yung tunog ng "bumabawi" sa pickups hindi sila refined eh. magaspang. artificial. hindi rich. matigas ang tunog. power through brute force instead of power via finesse (and sobrang laking 3d na sound stage ng vintage guitars).


Sir Alex,

i hope nabili mo na. I'm all for your happiness and fulfillment. 

[gandydancer123]

in

[firemodel55]

well, if i had 20 million and can't afford to keep it long term,  i'd buy it, keep if for a few years, be intimate with its sound, then let go. at least na experience ko and learned from it. who knows maybe down the line i might eventually be able to afford to keep it long term.

imo, walang tatalo sa magandang old wood. in fact sabi ni Yaron, mahirap makahanap ng magandang kahoy that will make the sound clear, not muddy etc etc. so he ended up making those highly adjustable pickups that he puts on his The Bone guitar. In other woods, if wala kang mapapala sa kahoy, bumawi ka na lang sa pickups.  pero sa akin, iba pa din yung maganda ang kahoy. iba kasi yung tunog ng "bumabawi" sa pickups hindi sila refined eh. magaspang. artificial. hindi rich. matigas ang tunog. power through brute force instead of power via finesse (and sobrang laking 3d na sound stage ng vintage guitars).


Sir Alex,

i hope nabili mo na. I'm all for your happiness and fulfillment. 

Unfortunately, I was P20million short.  So, in this age of low returns on monetary instruments, I would rather keep it in a real burst.

[hiskoolstudes]

Key Facts: 
There will be more great sounding modern guitars than there will be vintage guitars due to greater production volumes.  In short, plenty of vintage guitars -- a great majority are duds.
.....
Bottomline: If you have excess coin, go ahead buy what you can afford.  What the great sounding vintage guitar is: mas malambot na tunog na rich while at the same time tama ang tunog sa tenga.  Its a property I feel that newer guitars will never have.  You could say that I was wrong because Great Sounding Vintage Guitars bring something to the table uniquely theirs.  I mean there is no stopping you from putting in that Bareknuckle Pickups and Floyd Rose on a burst and hopefully those qualities that made it great still stay in the same amount but just maybe being what it is -- is good enough.

i believe that the great sounding modern guitars/basses primarily bec. of improved design and build techniques especially from the low volume manufacturers.

If i have the extra purchasing power i'd lean toward a modern builds instead of the vintage guitars/basses, but to each his own.

[nicoyow]

YMMV

[analog.matt]

i believe that the great sounding modern guitars/basses primarily bec. of improved design and build techniques especially from the low volume manufacturers.

If i have the extra purchasing power i'd lean toward a modern builds instead of the vintage guitars/basses, but to each his own.

the craftsmanship of modern guitars are superb. tolerances are tight. with these improvements playability if often superb.

but tone wise, that can be arguable. hindi mababaliw ang mga guitar greats sa vintage if wala lang....

may mga genre din naman na hindi mag mamatter kung vintage ang hawak mo or hindi

[pallas]

Nostalgia.

Nostalgia encompasses everything. Ads, consumer choices, life choices...everything.

Its almost a disease.


Fender said it best that they are making the best guitars right now. You can say they are pushing that to drive purchases but you cant argue the fact they are more consistent than back in the day. You can see Nostalgia at work with Fender pushing those vintage inspired, reliced, originals series etc.

Same for Gibson.

Gotta clear that heady brew called Nostalgia but I cant help it. The big 2 got me by the balls or shall we say Nostalgia.

[firemodel55]

I am going middle ground here.... 

Nostalgia is part of it BUT  more importantly for me is the hiyaw.  I brought home a piece that one may say is a NOT so desirable vintage but man it just smoked the 60s stuff that I could not believe it myself.  Like every batch of guitars made in a year or period, the great sounding ones when separated from the dogs can beat the more prized dogs from the golden years.

Matt is correct, in my opinion, with regards to old wood IFFFF and thats a big IFFFF its a vintage guitar with hiyaw.  Otherwise, if its a meh vintage guitar, a modern guitar with hiyaw will beat it by far.

[titser_marco]

Nostalgia.

Nostalgia encompasses everything. Ads, consumer choices, life choices...everything.

Its almost a disease.


Fender said it best that they are making the best guitars right now. You can say they are pushing that to drive purchases but you cant argue the fact they are more consistent than back in the day. You can see Nostalgia at work with Fender pushing those vintage inspired, reliced, originals series etc.

Same for Gibson.

Gotta clear that heady brew called Nostalgia but I cant help it. The big 2 got me by the balls or shall we say Nostalgia.

+1 I remember reading in an old GP magazine saying that Fender's biggest competitor is their ghost, ie buyers flocking towards the vintage stuff instead of the new units they have been making.

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[Ben Tsing Co]

Subscribing 

[analog.matt]

Nostalgia.

Nostalgia encompasses everything. Ads, consumer choices, life choices...everything.

Its almost a disease.


Fender said it best that they are making the best guitars right now. You can say they are pushing that to drive purchases but you cant argue the fact they are more consistent than back in the day. You can see Nostalgia at work with Fender pushing those vintage inspired, reliced, originals series etc.

Same for Gibson.

Gotta clear that heady brew called Nostalgia but I cant help it. The big 2 got me by the balls or shall we say Nostalgia.

sorry but there are a lot of misses here.

of course Fender will claim that. if they do not, walang bibili. lol

but many know its a hunting game and a numbers game, even at the highest category of Fender or Gibson, finding a good guitar is still a game of probability.

the truth is:  every batch of guitars, whether vintage, modern, low volume hand built, has lemons and gems ganun din sa mga vintage amps and pedals

One big store here in Oz laughed at me and said, the same thing: that Fender makes the best guitars now.

So i brought my late 80s Fender vintage re-issue. it smoked their 8,000 dollar Fender Custom Shops. ang payat tumunog. yung mga matataba tumunog, ngo ngo naman. that's considering it was plugged through a modern fender amp. hindi pa lumang amp. e di tameme yung mga salesmen.

That problem kasi here is personal long term exposure.  parang taong hindi pa nakakapunta ng USA, eh nakabasa lang sa internet, mas marunong pa sa naninirahan sa USA. lol

ang question here talaga is, gaano ba kalawak ang exposure ng isang tao (personal experience) sa vintage para masabi niya ano ang panget o hindi?

this is something we have to ask ourselves. teka ilan na ba nahawakan kong magaganda na vintage?

ako it took time before my ear appreciated vintage guitars and high end guitars na sinasabi ni alex na may hiyaw.

another example.

meron din akong early 70s Fender i knew it was special But there was a part of me that wanted to be sure.  it was a good thing i lived near some vintage and used guitar stores. and one day, may LIMA na models of the same year and make na pumasok sa store. i rushed to the store
and asked to play all 5. ang layo. tunog modern yung limang early 70s fender na yun. patay tumunog.

then a few months later, i got to talk to the manager of the vintage store infront of that store, he said he has a personal early 70s fender of the same year and model. nag request siya if i can bring mine so we can compare.
so dinala ko. dead sounding yung kanya. then we compared it to other early 70s model fenders in the store. patay.

now that store manager HATES stratocasters. lahat ng employees doon and even the owner says so. lol  so one day dinala ko yung pre-cbs strat ko doon for the store manager to play.

he said, "i hate a strats. i've played a lot of them during my career, never really got to like them. but i'll make an exception to yours. i like your strat"

so the point of my kwento is, at my end, instead of arguing, i chose to go out and gain exposure and experience. theoretical arguments will be theoretical arguments. never ending yan.

youtube will never capture the true sound of good instruments. (unfortunately, wala yata tayong mga vintage guitar stores sa pilipinas na pwede kang pumasok at mag test ng vintage guitars. at kung meron man, baka hindi naman mag pahawak. )

and ang vintage sound parang tao yan. you need to spend a lot of personal time to get to know the characteristics of good sounding vintage guitars.


 


 

[pallas]

sorry but there are a lot of misses here.

of course Fender will claim that. if they do not, walang bibili. lol

but many know its a hunting game and a numbers game, even at the highest category of Fender or Gibson, finding a good guitar is still a game of probability.

the truth is:  every batch of guitars, whether vintage, modern, low volume hand built, has lemons and gems ganun din sa mga vintage amps and pedals

One big store here in Oz laughed at me and said, the same thing: that Fender makes the best guitars now.

So i brought my late 80s Fender vintage re-issue. it smoked their 8,000 dollar Fender Custom Shops. ang payat tumunog. yung mga matataba tumunog, ngo ngo naman. that's considering it was plugged through a modern fender amp. hindi pa lumang amp. e di tameme yung mga salesmen.

That problem kasi here is personal long term exposure.  parang taong hindi pa nakakapunta ng USA, eh nakabasa lang sa internet, mas marunong pa sa naninirahan sa USA. lol

ang question here talaga is, gaano ba kalawak ang exposure ng isang tao (personal experience) sa vintage para masabi niya ano ang panget o hindi?

this is something we have to ask ourselves. teka ilan na ba nahawakan kong magaganda na vintage?

ako it took time before my ear appreciated vintage guitars and high end guitars na sinasabi ni alex na may hiyaw.

another example.

meron din akong early 70s Fender i knew it was special But there was a part of me that wanted to be sure.  it was a good thing i lived near some vintage and used guitar stores. and one day, may LIMA na models of the same year and make na pumasok sa store. i rushed to the store
and asked to play all 5. ang layo. tunog modern yung limang early 70s fender na yun. patay tumunog.

then a few months later, i got to talk to the manager of the vintage store infront of that store, he said he has a personal early 70s fender of the same year and model. nag request siya if i can bring mine so we can compare.
so dinala ko. dead sounding yung kanya. then we compared it to other early 70s model fenders in the store. patay.

now that store manager HATES stratocasters. lahat ng employees doon and even the owner says so. lol  so one day dinala ko yung pre-cbs strat ko doon for the store manager to play.

he said, "i hate a strats. i've played a lot of them during my career, never really got to like them. but i'll make an exception to yours. i like your strat"

so the point of my kwento is, at my end, instead of arguing, i chose to go out and gain exposure and experience. theoretical arguments will be theoretical arguments. never ending yan.

youtube will never capture the true sound of good instruments. (unfortunately, wala yata tayong mga vintage guitar stores sa pilipinas na pwede kang pumasok at mag test ng vintage guitars. at kung meron man, baka hindi naman mag pahawak. )

and ang vintage sound parang tao yan. you need to spend a lot of personal time to get to know the characteristics of good sounding vintage guitars.

Judging by your post you agree with me.

YouTube compressions are somewhat a mixed bag. If folks buy online and they do and that’s why we have Greg Koch who by the way did a very good job in closing the deal on me on a tele purchase why then would it not work with a 59 les Paul?
So if there is a showdown between a 59 LP and a modern best of the bunch R9 Clone would it be invalid considering people buy it online by the merits of Youtube.

What does it take to capture the sound and feel of a real 59 upload it to YouTube and everyone would say....wow that is THE sound.
Does it need an old vintage mic, perhaps the right environment, lighting, vintage props, baseball paraphernalia’s in the background or most importantly...old Alpha Males who conquered the world, created a brand and indulged on their delayed gratification ethos and Feeling good and nostalgic about themselves TRIED a bunch of 59s knowing they got it made AND picked THE one.

They based their consumer values on the scale of their success.

Emotional Feelgood.

Nostalgia.

Everyone of all income levels IS a target market.

[pallas]

Oh and Be careful of music store employees for they will tell you what is sweet to the ears.
They want you to be a repeat customer.

[firemodel55]

Judging by your post you agree with me.

YouTube compressions are somewhat a mixed bag. If folks buy online and they do and that’s why we have Greg Koch who by the way did a very good job in closing the deal on me on a tele purchase why then would it not work with a 59 les Paul?
So if there is a showdown between a 59 LP and a modern best of the bunch R9 Clone would it be invalid considering people buy it online by the merits of Youtube.

What does it take to capture the sound and feel of a real 59 upload it to YouTube and everyone would say....wow that is THE sound.
Does it need an old vintage mic, perhaps the right environment, lighting, vintage props, baseball paraphernalia’s in the background or most importantly...old Alpha Males who conquered the world, created a brand and indulged on their delayed gratification ethos and Feeling good and nostalgic about themselves TRIED a bunch of 59s knowing they got it made AND picked THE one.

They based their consumer values on the scale of their success.

Emotional Feelgood.

Nostalgia.

Everyone of all income levels IS a target market.

I don't think youtube will ever capture a KILLER sounding 59.  The real 59 just surrounds the room with sound which is so hard to capture on tape or whatever you have today.  It immerses you in a bubble of sound.  Also with regards to what recording can capture, its so rich that it sustains notes by itself without ever going into feedback.

The sound it throws just punches you in the gut which is something youtube can never dish out.

[bgarcia]

By any chance, any pics of the killer burst and pre-cbs strat you guys are talking about? 

[pallas]

I don't think youtube will ever capture a KILLER sounding 59.  The real 59 just surrounds the room with sound which is so hard to capture on tape or whatever you have today.  It immerses you in a bubble of sound.  Also with regards to what recording can capture, its so rich that it sustains notes by itself without ever going into feedback.

The sound it throws just punches you in the gut which is something youtube can never dish out.

I kinda agree. Im a big fan of all of its reputation that surrounds it but we have to have some sort of logical reasoning that at the end of the day its all wood and steel, magnets, speakers and paper pushing air.
Those factors can be replicated and somewhere there is a guitar out there that can outdo a V59 but no one is doing that so the V59s reputation is intact with no emperical test to challenge it.

There are a lot of youtube gear clips that punches me in the guts but i kinda not understand why i need to hear and feel a V59 in person. So if i need to do it in person does that mean the V59 needs to tap into my emotions, my moods, nostalgia and be immersed in a bubble of 3d sound?

If thats the case emotions then do come into play especially with gas gear purchases for we all know they defy logical thinking and reasoning.
Most of us just buy justified by want and not need.

[firemodel55]

By any chance, any pics of the killer burst and pre-cbs strat you guys are talking about? 

I do have two pics of the killer 59 but for what purpose will it serve?

My strat is a 72. 

Matt is the one with pre CBS.

[firemodel55]

I kinda agree. Im a big fan of all of its reputation that surrounds it but we have to have some sort of logical reasoning that at the end of the day its all wood and steel, magnets, speakers and paper pushing air.
Those factors can be replicated and somewhere there is a guitar out there that can outdo a V59 but no one is doing that so the V59s reputation is intact with no emperical test to challenge it.

There are a lot of youtube gear clips that punches me in the guts but i kinda not understand why i need to hear and feel a V59 in person. So if i need to do it in person does that mean the V59 needs to tap into my emotions, my moods, nostalgia and be immersed in a bubble of 3d sound?

If thats the case emotions then do come into play especially with gas gear purchases for we all know they defy logical thinking and reasoning.
Most of us just buy justified by want and not need.

A killer 59 just does everything for you with minimal effort.  It projects as a piece of art more than a sum of all the parts to an exponential degree.  Gil Yarons I feel can challenge the bad sounding 59s and come out on top easily.

Its simple for me:  I can hear the difference.  No logical thinking and heavy reasoning needed -- not as much as we think.

[bgarcia]

Well I'm guessing those following this thread are curious about these killers guitars.  It's like telling your friends about this nice girl at the office and they want to see pics.

Yes the pre-cbs pics is addressed to Matt if he doesn't mind sharing.

I do have two pics of the killer 59 but for what purpose will it serve?

My strat is a 72. 

Matt is the one with pre CBS.

[analog.matt]

Well I'm guessing those following this thread are curious about these killers guitars.  It's like telling your friends about this nice girl at the office and they want to see pics.

Yes the pre-cbs pics is addressed to Matt if he doesn't mind sharing.

i'm not the type who loves to post pics online.  only the closest personal friends of mine have seen it or pictures of it.

I kinda agree. Im a big fan of all of its reputation that surrounds it but we have to have some sort of logical reasoning that at the end of the day its all wood and steel, magnets, speakers and paper pushing air.
Those factors can be replicated and somewhere there is a guitar out there that can outdo a V59 but no one is doing that so the V59s reputation is intact with no emperical test to challenge it.

There are a lot of youtube gear clips that punches me in the guts but i kinda not understand why i need to hear and feel a V59 in person. So if i need to do it in person does that mean the V59 needs to tap into my emotions, my moods, nostalgia and be immersed in a bubble of 3d sound?

If thats the case emotions then do come into play especially with gas gear purchases for we all know they defy logical thinking and reasoning.
Most of us just buy justified by want and not need.

good sounding vintage guitar experience is like sex.  you have to experience it. not just once. but many times.

with no ego intended, would you believe someone who says he's good in bed pero  virgin pala siya and puro forum, youtube, magazines lang basehan niya?

di ba? yun lang yun.

[bgarcia]

Understood.    

i'm not the type who loves to post pics online.  only the closest personal friends of mine have seen it or pictures of it.

[guitaricci]

I remember the Aerosmith concert sa MOA Arena. Ganda nung tunog ng Les Paul ni Brad Whitford. I dont know if that was his legit 59 or a reissue or a normal LP...pero grabe tunog.