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Author Topic: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention  (Read 43363 times)

Offline firemodel55

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Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« on: November 02, 2012, 10:18:34 AM »
1.The winders have no exposure OR
2. They don't have the ear to produce good sounding pickups

Though it maybe tempting to buy local or Asian pickups because of their price or the pogi points of a 'specially' made pickup for you, there is more to consider.  Below is an excerpt that I lifted from Tonequest Report that describes the effort in the design of the Gibson Classic 57 pickup by JT Ribiloff.

JTRibiloff was a key member of Gibson's R&D team when the '57 Classic was developed in cooperation with Tom Holmes.

JT Ribiloff:

"By the time I was 21 I had owned over 400 guitars. I've been a guitar freak since I was 14 years old, I'm 44 now, and I'm sure I have had over a 1,000 guitars.  I grew up in southern California, so we had access to a lot of guitars and I've owned lots of vintage Les Pauls, SG's, Specials and ES175's.  When we started to develop the 57 Classic, I had quite a few vintage pickups at my fingertips, and George Gruhn was very generous in that he would let us go in and pull guitars and hold on to them overnight so that we could find those that really had the ultimate tone.  There were significant inconsistencies among all of those old instruments, because you have to remember that these factories existed primarily to make money, and the way to make money was to keep material and labor costs low and build as efficiently as possible.  They were trying to use whatever was commercially available, but in the music industry, the quantities of usage are very, very low compared to the automobile industry, for example and that's where the inconsistencies in material came in.  The rod stock for the pole pieces in PAF's was basically low carbon steel, and I had different pole pieces analyzed to find out what types of carbon compound and grade of steel they used, because that's a big part of getting that authentic sound.  They used plain enamel 42 gauge wire, and the very first PAF's basically used the same magnets that were being used for the P90s at the time.  The magnets didn't really change dimensionally until around 1961, but the magnet material in the early PAF's did vary between Alnico II and Alnico IV.

The 57 Classic was specifically aimed at making 'middle of the road' version of the PAF pickup that would sound equally great played through a Fender reverb amp or a Marshall 100watt Super Lead.  The final testing came down ot just playing the pickup through a variety of guitar bodies and amps.  And it's not just about how the pickup sounds, but also how it feels... At the sae time the Classics were being developed, we were also trying to develop the Historic Les Paul, so we were listinging to a lot of different vintage guitars. There were some vintage pickups that didn't sound good at all, and it wasn't so much due ot the way they were originally made, but the way they had aged.  Enamel wire becomes brittle with time, and as it gets brittle, you can get little breaks in it, and the pickup actually stops working on inductance and starts working on capacitance.  Some pickups with these breaks can become warmer sounding, and others become really bright.

The final testing of the Classic took place in multiples of different guitars because what I wanted was a good, rudimentary pickup that worked equally well in a broad range of instruments, and I'm sure that was the goal they had i mind with the original PAF's were designed.  Any time I tried to duplicate the extremes that we heard in vintage pickups, one style of playing always seemed to suffer.  A pickup that sounded particularly great through a Marshall amp for really aggressive kinds of rock music would sound way too dark through a Fender.  Then, if you made the pickup sound super sweet, it would sould like a buzz saw ripping through your skull played through a really bright Marshall. Gibson had just started potting pickups prior to the time we were working on the Classic, and they had never wax-potted pickups prior to 1988-89. Fortunately, a the  time we were working on the Classics we were also going through a complete re-tooling, so all of the usual restraints and resistance to change had been removed."


Offline treblinkalovescene

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2012, 11:32:27 AM »
I only know of Mang Max's pickups locally. Are there any noteworthy Asian pickup brands?
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Offline IncX

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2012, 11:37:40 AM »
asian PUPs are like cheap sardinas. you wish you weren't eating them, you work hard so you wont have to eat them, but gaddamnit you are eating them now and tomorrow and there's nothing you can do about it - for now.

the thread title is so apples and oranges - or steak and sardinas, to be exact.

Offline jeo

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2012, 11:45:55 AM »
I just wanted to know, does the Kinman pickups fall on this "local" and "asian" category? Kasi dito naman sya ginagawa na and Kinman trained pinoy's yung winders?  :)
>Use your ears, dont worry about the hype!>"Not everything that counts can be measured and not everything you can measure counts">TECHNIQUE is in the FINGERS & TONE is more in the GEAR>HIYAW, if you didnt get it, its your problem not mine>killed ur killer

Offline greasykid

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2012, 12:18:10 PM »
Once you get the final specifications down, (type of wire, no. of winds, magnet type & gauss, etc.) I don't think experience or exposure (and ears even!) would matter much afterwards.

Kahit anong boutique brand pa siguro, ibigay nila yung formula sa Asian winders, talo-talo na yan.


Offline stringman

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2012, 12:22:23 PM »
I only know of Mang Max's pickups locally. Are there any noteworthy Asian pickup brands?
I tried his single coil pickup. Sounds good to me on the clean side.

Sa panahon ngayon I don't care about the brand or where it came from. If it sounds good to my ear then I'll use it.
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones.

Offline Al_Librero

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #6 on: November 02, 2012, 12:47:43 PM »
My choice of pickups happen to be US made. But I prefer to remain open to other options. I think it's ok to have even just a passing interest with developments closer to home.
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Offline Poundcake

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #7 on: November 02, 2012, 03:39:26 PM »
1.The winders have no exposure OR
2. They don't have the ear to produce good sounding pickups

Though it maybe tempting to buy local or Asian pickups because of their price or the pogi points of a 'specially' made pickup for you, there is more to consider.  Below is an excerpt that I lifted from Tonequest Report that describes the effort in the design of the Gibson Classic 57 pickup by JT Ribiloff.

JTRibiloff was a key member of Gibson's R&D team when the '57 Classic was developed in cooperation with Tom Holmes.

JT Ribiloff:

"By the time I was 21 I had owned over 400 guitars. I've been a guitar freak since I was 14 years old, I'm 44 now, and I'm sure I have had over a 1,000 guitars.  I grew up in southern California, so we had access to a lot of guitars and I've owned lots of vintage Les Pauls, SG's, Specials and ES175's.  When we started to develop the 57 Classic, I had quite a few vintage pickups at my fingertips, and George Gruhn was very generous in that he would let us go in and pull guitars and hold on to them overnight so that we could find those that really had the ultimate tone.  There were significant inconsistencies among all of those old instruments, because you have to remember that these factories existed primarily to make money, and the way to make money was to keep material and labor costs low and build as efficiently as possible.  They were trying to use whatever was commercially available, but in the music industry, the quantities of usage are very, very low compared to the automobile industry, for example and that's where the inconsistencies in material came in.  The rod stock for the pole pieces in PAF's was basically low carbon steel, and I had different pole pieces analyzed to find out what types of carbon compound and grade of steel they used, because that's a big part of getting that authentic sound.  They used plain enamel 42 gauge wire, and the very first PAF's basically used the same magnets that were being used for the P90s at the time.  The magnets didn't really change dimensionally until around 1961, but the magnet material in the early PAF's did vary between Alnico II and Alnico IV.

The 57 Classic was specifically aimed at making 'middle of the road' version of the PAF pickup that would sound equally great played through a Fender reverb amp or a Marshall 100watt Super Lead.  The final testing came down ot just playing the pickup through a variety of guitar bodies and amps.  And it's not just about how the pickup sounds, but also how it feels... At the sae time the Classics were being developed, we were also trying to develop the Historic Les Paul, so we were listinging to a lot of different vintage guitars. There were some vintage pickups that didn't sound good at all, and it wasn't so much due ot the way they were originally made, but the way they had aged.  Enamel wire becomes brittle with time, and as it gets brittle, you can get little breaks in it, and the pickup actually stops working on inductance and starts working on capacitance.  Some pickups with these breaks can become warmer sounding, and others become really bright.

The final testing of the Classic took place in multiples of different guitars because what I wanted was a good, rudimentary pickup that worked equally well in a broad range of instruments, and I'm sure that was the goal they had i mind with the original PAF's were designed.  Any time I tried to duplicate the extremes that we heard in vintage pickups, one style of playing always seemed to suffer.  A pickup that sounded particularly great through a Marshall amp for really aggressive kinds of rock music would sound way too dark through a Fender.  Then, if you made the pickup sound super sweet, it would sould like a buzz saw ripping through your skull played through a really bright Marshall. Gibson had just started potting pickups prior to the time we were working on the Classic, and they had never wax-potted pickups prior to 1988-89. Fortunately, a the  time we were working on the Classics we were also going through a complete re-tooling, so all of the usual restraints and resistance to change had been removed."



Yo tone brother, wanna schedule an educational trip to Mang Max's place to test his pickups? What say you? :)
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Offline kernelsalonpas

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #8 on: November 02, 2012, 04:07:38 PM »
I just wanted to know, does the Kinman pickups fall on this "local" and "asian" category? Kasi dito naman sya ginagawa na and Kinman trained pinoy's yung winders?  :)

exactly... sa subic at kilala ko isa sa mga winders...  :-\
no pic, no advise...

Offline guitarwiz02

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #9 on: November 02, 2012, 04:15:55 PM »
Yo tone brother, wanna schedule an educational trip to Mang Max's place to test his pickups? What say you? :)

Oh this!
"Check out how Eddie Van Halen doesn’t pick his fast notes with all the same boring velocity. He makes most of his fast licks almost funky by picking some notes harder than others." - Jason Becker

Offline franzdean

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2012, 04:52:23 PM »
What are the local and asian pickups btw?  :wink:

list?
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Offline Filippo

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2012, 08:15:07 PM »
I tried his single coil pickup. Sounds good to me on the clean side.

Sa panahon ngayon I don't care about the brand or where it came from. If it sounds good to my ear then I'll use it.

Agree with this... I think we sometimes listen with our brains too much and not with our ears...

We're all just caretakers. And some better than others.

Offline pitongjerome

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2012, 09:06:14 PM »
if we could just "try" the pickups first then hear if it sounds good or not on our guitar than buy it first then keep it or sell it..
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline siore

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2012, 10:00:37 PM »
asian PUPs are like cheap sardinas. you wish you weren't eating them, you work hard so you wont have to eat them, but gaddamnit you are eating them now and tomorrow and there's nothing you can do about it - for now.

the thread title is so apples and oranges - or steak and sardinas, to be exact.

Nail on the head.
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Offline Gunslinger

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2012, 10:22:33 PM »
I heard Mang Max can has (or can make?) an active pickup similar to Blackouts, if not better. I actually want to try those. That caught my attention, really. I would love to try out Bare Knuckles if budget permits. IF. lol

asian PUPs are like cheap sardinas. you wish you weren't eating them, you work hard so you wont have to eat them, but gaddamnit you are eating them now and tomorrow and there's nothing you can do about it - for now.

the thread title is so apples and oranges - or steak and sardinas, to be exact.

A great analogy.
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Offline pitongjerome

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2012, 10:33:53 PM »
asian PUPs are like cheap sardinas. you wish you weren't eating them, you work hard so you wont have to eat them, but gaddamnit you are eating them now and tomorrow and there's nothing you can do about it - for now.

the thread title is so apples and oranges - or steak and sardinas, to be exact.

well for me the cheap sardinas are the asian stock pickups, the pickups that are meant just to be replaced but i think there are asian pickups that are a lot better than those asian stock pickups and there are some asian pickups that i have preferred over my previous dimarzios..
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones

Offline Letour

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #16 on: November 02, 2012, 11:53:00 PM »
I wonder how Europeans feel about american pickups? Or vice versa?
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Offline grasyaps

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2012, 01:22:32 AM »
Yo tone brother, wanna schedule an educational trip to Mang Max's place to test his pickups? What say you? :)

allergic sha sa local sir. hindi yan sasama.
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Offline firemodel55

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2012, 06:19:30 AM »
Once you get the final specifications down, (type of wire, no. of winds, magnet type & gauss, etc.) I don't think experience or exposure (and ears even!) would matter much afterwards.

Kahit anong boutique brand pa siguro, ibigay nila yung formula sa Asian winders, talo-talo na yan.

Nope... I am afraid not.  As such there are elements to sound that cannot be measured by specifications that only the human ear can hear.  It applies so much to pickups.  If what you said were true, there would only be one specification for PAFs -- in fact, there is only one specification range for PAFs!  Yet after years of use, different PAFs will sound different.  Read between the lines as described above by JT.

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2012, 06:22:41 AM »
I tried his single coil pickup. Sounds good to me on the clean side.

Sa panahon ngayon I don't care about the brand or where it came from. If it sounds good to my ear then I'll use it.

More so today, because of so many choices, to really know what sounds good (i.e. to train your ear on what sounds good) you have to really talk and hear the experts.  The winder (or brand) matters more so than before.

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2012, 06:25:17 AM »
Yo tone brother, wanna schedule an educational trip to Mang Max's place to test his pickups? What say you? :)

Not necessary... Simple lang, all you have to do is have Mang Max copy the sound and feel of a 57 Classic by ear.  When he gets it dead on, then I will listen to his pickups.

Offline stringman

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2012, 06:28:16 AM »
More so today, because of so many choices, to really know what sounds good (i.e. to train your ear on what sounds good) you have to really talk and hear the experts.  The winder (or brand) matters more so than before.

You are correct with so many brands nowadays.
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones.

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2012, 06:32:34 AM »
exactly... sa subic at kilala ko isa sa mga winders...  :-\

I don't know if you guys know this but Chris Kinman considers me his first customer from the Philippines.  I actually bought a set from him a long time ago and he was asking me for it so he could compare if it sounded different from his current wind today.  I was surprised that he remembered me.  I spent some time with him and Arie at Subic and he asked me to bring my VOX AC30 so he could voice a new set of single coils for Hank Marvin.  By the way, I love his P90s which I consider one of his best.  But I consider his product more Western than Asian.  The guy knows what sounds good and can hear what sounds good.  Up to today, I consider his products tops if you want noiseless single coils.

Offline firemodel55

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #23 on: November 03, 2012, 06:37:09 AM »
Agree with this... I think we sometimes listen with our brains too much and not with our ears...

Unfortunately, there are quite a number who cannot hear... LOL.  I would rather that they get their brain short circuited and prescribed gear in the hopes that their ears get trained to what sounds good.  For example, the Parokya ni Edgar sound --- sounds better than before but still bad sounding overall.  Not to knock them because they have probably improved but at this stage I expect more from them in terms of guitar tone.  Look at Ely Buendia's tone from Eraserhead days.  It has improved way much more today.

Offline stringman

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Re: Why I feel local and Asian Pickups don't deserve your attention
« Reply #24 on: November 03, 2012, 06:41:31 AM »
I don't know if you guys know this but Chris Kinman considers me his first customer from the Philippines.  I actually bought a set from him a long time ago and he was asking me for it so he could compare if it sounded different from his current wind today.  I was surprised that he remembered me.  I spent some time with him and Arie at Subic and he asked me to bring my VOX AC30 so he could voice a new set of single coils for Hank Marvin.  By the way, I love his P90s which I consider one of his best.  But I consider his product more Western than Asian.  The guy knows what sounds good and can hear what sounds good.  Up to today, I consider his products tops if you want noiseless single coils.

That's good Alex! At least Chris acknowledges that winding before would differ from the windings today. That's why it's so hard to replicate a vintage sounding pickup with the current materials available on the market. Vintage pickups will always be the old pickups on a very old guitar.

On another note, to compare an Asian to Asian pickup. I tried the Max Rufo single coil on a clean sounding amp. It sounded better compared to the Artec vintage. pero that was just 5 minutes playing with the guitar. But the pickup voicing will always differ with the tone capacitors being used.  But as tried and tested, the oil capacitors really work well to deliver the ballsy single coil sound.
I have stated that there are more bad sounding suhrs then there are good ones.