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Author Topic: True Acoustic Tone  (Read 1169469 times)

Offline af_villaruel

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #825 on: June 10, 2008, 01:29:24 PM »

alwyn - nagpapagawa na ako ng K&K clone. it's 3 disc transducers under the bridge connected directly to a the endpin output jack.  hintayin mo na lang yun, mas mura yun.

kung nagmamadali ka, try mo yung suggestion ni GGBR for locally available options: AER, Artec, etc.  kung oorder online, dami mo options.


ps - i was eyeing that Egima. di lang kami makapag-set ng good sked nung seller kasi ang layo nya sa akin.  anyway, first call ako kung sakali ibenta mo ah?  hehe... pero suggest ko ikeep mo na yan. :-D

sir joric, saan ka nagpagawa? understanding ko is that it's a passive system kung ganun. so i'll be needing a preamp before a D.I.?

i was thinking to order online nga. kaso matagal pa ang dating. may shipping costs pa so i might end up spending more.

okay nga ung egima. it has a smaller body so less boom... pero amazing naman ang clarity niya. medyo midrangey pero i think you could expect that from 000-18's. the wood has really broken in so the guitar has its own character na. nails that late 70's folk rock james taylor-ish tone.


Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #826 on: June 10, 2008, 02:29:38 PM »
understanding ko is that it's a passive system kung ganun. so i'll be needing a preamp before a D.I.?

i was thinking to order online nga. kaso matagal pa ang dating. may shipping costs pa so i might end up spending more.

yup sir joric's K & K is a passive system.  yes, you will be needing a preamp BUT no longer a DI.  the only reason why you will get a DI is to convert your unbalanced 1/4 input jack to a balanced XLR.  acoustic preamps already have that feature.  search online for good acoustic preamps.   :-)

there are forumites here who have contacts in the US and ship items here.  they quote you a price which is all-inclusive and they will deliver the items to you.  look for BossingBoss and Captain Satch in the Classifieds.  :-)

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Offline deltaslim

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #827 on: June 10, 2008, 06:14:28 PM »
sorry if my question was wrong.  :-D

what i meant was.. "Where did you plug your guitar?"  i knew that it was recorded using the Treo's built-in mic but to hear the effect of the K&K, it should be plugged right?   :-)

as for the true K&K sound, i received a demo soundclip of the K&K Trinity System.  when i heard it, the only thing i said was.."Now THAT is acoustic!"  based on this, i assumed that your pick-up will sound similar to the transducer of this system. :-)

oh, sorry for the ommission.  i plugged into a Roland Micro-Cube amp on the Acoustic setting.  the Treo recorded the sound from the speakers of the Micro-Cube (ie, not DI).  i tested my fon mic and am pretty sure it's the culprit (or the recording/conversion software).

the Trinity is a higher-end and 'more complete'  system (eg, the condenser mic, preamp, etc.).  K&K is the cheaper and least complicated alternative that's why it's appealing to a lazy cheapskate like me.   but let's check the math:

Trinity = $292, Pure Western Mini = $86

The way I see it, I can't imagine the Trinity being 3x better than the Pure Western Mini.

« Last Edit: June 10, 2008, 06:17:36 PM by deltaslim »

Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #828 on: June 10, 2008, 07:03:07 PM »
oh, sorry for the ommission.  i plugged into a Roland Micro-Cube amp on the Acoustic setting.  the Treo recorded the sound from the speakers of the Micro-Cube (ie, not DI).  i tested my fon mic and am pretty sure it's the culprit (or the recording/conversion software).

oohh..most probably it's the mic.   :-)

the Trinity is a higher-end and 'more complete'  system (eg, the condenser mic, preamp, etc.).  K&K is the cheaper and least complicated alternative that's why it's appealing to a lazy cheapskate like me.   but let's check the math:

Trinity = $292, Pure Western Mini = $86

The way I see it, I can't imagine the Trinity being 3x better than the Pure Western Mini.

you got a K & K sir joric!  that doesn't make you a lazy cheapskate in my books.  :-D

both systems are from K & K so i'm sure they are both more than adequate.  if you want, i can email you that demo soundclip i mentioned.  maybe you already have an idea whom it came from.  very detailed demo..it highlighted each component of the Trinity system separately.  just pm me your addy and i'll send it later tonight.  :-)
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Offline deltaslim

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #829 on: June 10, 2008, 07:10:55 PM »
oohh..most probably it's the mic.   :-)

yeah. if i find the time, i'll record with the vidcam. it has a better mic.  i'm also looking to buy a USB mic eh.  hopefully this week...


Quote
you got a K & K sir joric!  that doesn't make you a lazy cheapskate in my books.  :-D

both systems are from K & K so i'm sure they are both more than adequate.  if you want, i can email you that demo soundclip i mentioned.  maybe you already have an idea whom it came from.  very detailed demo..it highlighted each component of the Trinity system separately.  just pm me your addy and i'll send it later tonight.  :-)

uhm, i've got bad memory.  please email anyway to deltaslim@gmail.com.  thanks!

of course if i have more money i'd get a better system.  i just don't feel the price difference justifies it.  maybe if and when i'm the best and most famous musician playing the best gigs on a regular basis, pwede na. :-D  for now, this is what i deserve.  :-D


Offline strummer

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #830 on: June 11, 2008, 01:03:03 AM »

alwyn - nagpapagawa na ako ng K&K clone. it's 3 disc transducers under the bridge connected directly to a the endpin output jack.  hintayin mo na lang yun, mas mura yun.

kung nagmamadali ka, try mo yung suggestion ni GGBR for locally available options: AER, Artec, etc.  kung oorder online, dami mo options.


ps - i was eyeing that Egima. di lang kami makapag-set ng good sked nung seller kasi ang layo nya sa akin.  anyway, first call ako kung sakali ibenta mo ah?  hehe... pero suggest ko ikeep mo na yan. :-D

hep hep hep... pasabit!!! heheh
strum away!

Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #831 on: June 11, 2008, 07:10:05 AM »
sir joric, email sent.  let me know what you think.  :-)
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Offline dantuts

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #832 on: June 11, 2008, 12:16:10 PM »
delta..

update mo ako ah... sa "mang raul ducers"  :-D
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Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #833 on: June 11, 2008, 01:23:39 PM »
quick question:

may problema yung electronics ng acoustic ko.  if i remember correctly, may nagrerepair sa AP main.  i just forgot the name.  does anyone know him?

thanks!
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Offline af_villaruel

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #834 on: June 11, 2008, 01:51:45 PM »
alwyn - nagpapagawa na ako ng K&K clone. it's 3 disc transducers under the bridge connected directly to a the endpin output jack.  hintayin mo na lang yun, mas mura yun.

if i may be so bold, i'd like to suggest a shootout between the k&k and the raul-ducer clone. who knows if all goes well, we might have mang raul suddenly mass producing his work. :)

Offline dantuts

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #835 on: June 11, 2008, 02:02:36 PM »
if i may be so bold, i'd like to suggest a shootout between the k&k and the raul-ducer clone. who knows if all goes well, we might have mang raul suddenly mass producing his work. :)

ok sa akin ito.. hehehe now I've got a reason not to order K&K hehehe
I was alive in the forest
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In life I was silent In death I sweetly sing

Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #836 on: June 11, 2008, 03:03:31 PM »
quick question:

may problema yung electronics ng acoustic ko.  if i remember correctly, may nagrerepair sa AP main.  i just forgot the name.  does anyone know him?

thanks!

si mang bert pala.  ok na to.  :-D
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Offline strummer

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #837 on: June 11, 2008, 08:44:00 PM »
raul ducer... sama kow!!!
strum away!

Offline GGBR

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #838 on: June 11, 2008, 10:23:50 PM »
If you feel that you have a lot of time in your hands or would like to experiment here's how to build you own transducer (with an intro)...

Piezo Materials and Instrument Pickups

A piezo transducer is a pickup that uses some sort of piezoelectric material to convert sound (pressure) energy into electrical energy.  Simply put, a piezo material is any material that will generate an electrical charge when mechanically deformed.

There are four types of piezo materials used in the manufacture of instrument transducers - lead zirconate titanate (PZT) ceramic chips, PZT ceramic bender discs, polyvinylidene fluoride (PVDF) plastic film, and PVDF coaxial (coax) cable.  PZT chips find their way into what are now old style under saddle guitar transducers, transducers for various bowed instruments, and manufactured arched top guitar and mandolin bridges.  PZT discs consist of PZT material bonded to thin brass disks, and are commonly used for soundboard pickups for flat top guitars and for bridge-mounted pickups for upright basses.  PVDF film may be found in all sorts of transducers from under saddle guitar transducers to under-bridge-foot transducers for bass viols.  PVDF coax cable is manufactured just like the single conductor shielded cable used to make instrument cables, except that instead of an insulating material between the center conductor and the outer shielding braid, PVDF material is used there.  It is used in manufactured under saddle pickups for acoustic guitars and is the material that will be used to construct a transducer in this project.

All of these piezo materials have physical and electrical characteristics which make them suitable for extremely high fidelity transducers for musical instruments, a fact which is belied by the rather humble applications to which these materials are often applied.  PZT ceramic chips are used to make the igniters for gas barbecue grills and camping lanterns.  PZT disks are probably most frequently used as cheap buzzers in electronic devices and as microphones and speakers in telephones.  And the piezo coax cable used in the transducer in this article is most often found buried in the road to let automated traffic lights know when a car is approaching.  Again, although used for a wide variety of applications, these materials are no less suitable for the high fidelity application of musical instrument pickup.

Pickup Placement

To make a pickup for a musical instrument, two wires are connected to a piezo material.  The resulting element is mounted so that sound from the instrument causes the material to deform, producing an electrical signal which varies in proportion to the deforming vibrations.  Pickup placement is critical to good sound reproduction and always represents at least one tradeoff.  The fact is there is no perfect place to locate a piezo transducer, as all locations color the sound in one way or another.   In guitars, piezo transducers are most often located on the underside of the soundboard or in the bridge.  Soundboard placement is problematic in that the soundboard vibrates in a modal fashion related to frequency.  This means that a transducer mounted on the soundboard will be more sensitive to certain frequencies and less sensitive to others, those frequencies depending on where on the soundboard the transducer is located.  Soundboard transducers are also prone to feedback even at low levels of amplification.

These days the most popular place to locate a piezo transducer on a guitar is in the bridge, and for flat top guitars the most popular place in the bridge is directly under the saddle.  Here, string tension variations caused by the vibration of the string translate into pressure variations on the saddle, which rests right on top of the transducer.  This placement is less prone to feedback than soundboard placement and also produces a more balanced frequency spectrum.  On the downside, under saddle placement reads more of the sound of the strings themselves, and less of the sound of the entire instrument.  Again, there is always a tradeoff with transducer placement, but this is one that works out well in practice.

I’ve chosen piezo coax cable for the pickup in this article.  Piezo coax cable is probably the easiest material to use without special tools and jigging.  All piezo electric materials mentioned present very high electrical impedances and as such must be thoroughly shielded to prevent the pickup of electrical noise and hum. (IN EARLIER POSTS, THIS IS THE REASON WHY YOU HAVE THE LINE LEVEL VS XLR (BALANCED LINE) OR NEED YOUR DI BOX TO TRANSFORM HI TO LO Z) As the piezo coax cable is well shielded as manufactured, no additional effort is necessary to shield the transducer element itself.  This material is also very simple to cut-- it can be cut to length using wire cutters.  Finally, piezo coax cable is very easy to wire up.

With the discussion of piezo materials and instrument transducer design and placement accomplished, let’s look at the construction of an under saddle transducer.

Parts List
Approximately 5” of piezo coax cable, approximately 0.125” in diameter (Measurement Specialties Inc. PVDF piezo coax cable or equivalent).

Approximately 18” of high Z, shielded, single conductor microphone cable, 0.125” or less in diameter. (Mogami 2368 or equivalent).

An assortment of diameters of heat shrink tubing.

Copper shielding foil with conductive adhesive.

Cyanoacrylate glue.

See the Sources section at the end for information on where to get these supplies.

Tools
Soldering iron (pencil type, approx. 35W) and solder.

Wire strippers.

Pliers.


TO FOLLOW IN NEXT POST.........Construction
« Last Edit: June 11, 2008, 10:42:05 PM by GGBR »

Offline deltaslim

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #839 on: June 12, 2008, 07:20:53 AM »
o dantuts, buking na ang "Secret Society of DIY Transducers" natin!

GGBR - i'm looking forward to the succeeding parts of your post.  i have a friend who tried this (mas simple lang yung instructions and less detailed ang info).  in your experience ba ok din ang tone?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 08:04:28 AM by deltaslim »

Offline maxi_musikero

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #840 on: June 12, 2008, 07:58:39 AM »
if mang raul can make a successful K&K clone, this is good news for us.

bad news for me..wala pa akong paglalagyan eh.  :-D
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Offline deltaslim

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #841 on: June 12, 2008, 08:34:35 AM »
Time out muna from the transducer talk...


Saang shops ba meron bone or other type of bridge pins?  Ano na ba latest sa technology ng bridge pins? What would you recommend?
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 08:43:22 AM by deltaslim »

Offline dantuts

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #842 on: June 12, 2008, 09:54:48 AM »
Time out muna from the transducer talk...


Saang shops ba meron bone or other type of bridge pins?  Ano na ba latest sa technology ng bridge pins? What would you recommend?

delta, brass pins meron sa lazer. you can ask Al_Librero for review naka gamit na sya. i haven't seen bone na bridge pins na binebenta dito. hindi pa rin ako naka gamit.
I was alive in the forest
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Offline GGBR

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #843 on: June 12, 2008, 10:34:17 AM »
GGBR - i'm looking forward to the succeeding parts of your post.  i have a friend who tried this (mas simple lang yung instructions and less detailed ang info).  in your experience ba ok din ang tone?

Referring to the piezo in itself, I do not think the tone will vary much, if it is even discernable because I do not think you can alter the piezo's natural mechanical/physical properties. There is not much altering that you can do to a strip of piezo which just fits into your saddle slot.

Take a look at the new ART (Acoustic Resonance Transducers) that Yamaha introduced last year in their APX series. They have a variation of configurations installed in their assorted models where the top models have 4 pickups and down to the lower models with a single piezo UST. (Just goes to show that no matter what sophisticated engineering goes into a pickup, it still cannot replicate the natural sound that a microphone picks up and sends to your sound equipment.)

From their literature, they say that they were able to tone down the electrical (quacky) tone of the piezo by putting a few layers of 'padding' between the guitar soundboard and the piezo itself. Their piezo transducers are round (much like K & K or a stethoscope) where they incorporated some layers of a buffering material (maybe vinyl/plastic) to 'alter' the quacky piezo sound......and I agree that the new APX does sound good. Even if their guitar bodies are laminated (plywood).

Will post the rest of the pickup "Contruction" when I get to find out how i can include the photos that go with the instructions. I have not been successful in posting photos.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 10:38:03 AM by GGBR »

Offline GGBR

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #844 on: June 12, 2008, 10:52:01 AM »
Saang shops ba meron bone or other type of bridge pins?  Ano na ba latest sa technology ng bridge pins? What would you recommend?

I myself have not seen bone bridgepins in any of the shops I have come across...JB, Lazer, RJ, AP.

Anyway, their purpose is to hold down the string ball in the 'hole'. Not much it can to do to the sound or can it? It can provide some "pretty" sound  :-D.

Seriously, if you can locate those factories that produce the handcrafted necklaces, they should be able to produce bridgepins for you in bone or carabao horn, dot inlaid with paua, MOP, black lip, ebony etc . Check those tiangge stalls, they have necklaces with shell and bone. The problem though is that only a very select part (middle) of the bone (if I remember correctly, called the femur??) is thick enough to make it to the pin head. I have a small lathe and have been trying to figure out how to do it!! I can only make saddles and nuts at the moment with my equipment. Suggest you look into brass or stainless na lang. There are available rods that can be turned (by lathe) down to bridgepin size.

Offline dantuts

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #845 on: June 12, 2008, 11:56:31 AM »

Will post the rest of the pickup "Construction" when I get to find out how i can include the photos that go with the instructions. I have not been successful in posting photos.


GGBR, try uploading your pics sa www.photobucket.com , then paste the link ([img]) to your message, each pics you load have a corresponding [img] tag. if the pics is link to a website, paste the link to your message (ex: http://www.philmusic.com/acoustic.jpg) then select the link then press the "insert image" icon ...woahla..!!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2008, 12:00:18 PM by dantuts »
I was alive in the forest
I was cut by the cruel axe
In life I was silent In death I sweetly sing

Offline af_villaruel

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #846 on: June 12, 2008, 12:30:38 PM »
o dantuts, buking na ang "Secret Society of DIY Transducers" natin!

I suddenly felt responsible. LOL.

Anyway, +1 on the brass pins. I think someone's selling Martin ebony pins in the classifieds too. Parang si jmorrero, but I'm not sure.

Offline deltaslim

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #847 on: June 12, 2008, 12:54:36 PM »
Anyway, their purpose is to hold down the string ball in the 'hole'. Not much it can to do to the sound or can it? It can provide some "pretty" sound  :-D.

Well, a good condition guitar with properly installed bridge pin should have the bridge pin couple or come in contact with the bridge, the bridgeplate, the soundboard, and the string itself.  There is almost surely an effect on these components but I agree that the tonal difference might be minimal if you already have good pins (eg, bone).  But since I have plastic on mine now, anything else is "better".  :-D

Thanks for the tip re sources.  I'll try that out, kung wala talaga sa iba.

Re transducers: You are likely right.  Intriguing din yung ART ah!  Hmmm...

Offline GGBR

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #848 on: June 12, 2008, 02:40:43 PM »
GGBR, try uploading your pics sa www.photobucket.com , then paste the link ([img]) to your message, each pics you load have a corresponding [img] tag. if the pics is link to a website, paste the link to your message (ex: http://www.philmusic.com/acoustic.jpg) then select the link then press the "insert image" icon ...woahla..!!

Let me just send you the Construction which is Word file ibedded with the photos....I cannot seem to do the image links properly. Pls send me your email address through personal message

Offline dantuts

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Re: True Acoustic Tone
« Reply #849 on: June 12, 2008, 03:04:40 PM »
@GGBR ..

PM deltaslim nalang, i cant access my email here sa office..  :-D
I was alive in the forest
I was cut by the cruel axe
In life I was silent In death I sweetly sing