DIY Acoustics and Soundproofing Thread

[botbenz]

safe ba to?



i will put 16kg rockwool or glass fiber as insulation above the existing ceiling frame. the ceiling frame is made from 2x2 wood. then i'll put resilient channels before i mount 2 layers of 1/2" gypsum

what's the ideal distance between resilient channels? 24" centers ba for ceilings? im going to use RC2 but i dont know where to get them. jeasteel is only offering regular hat channels. i havent checked wilcon yet

@peeves24! as you know, i am a DIYer like you, and a fairly new one at that. that said, my newbie understanding is that resilient channels are generally used for walls. most of the RCs i have seen are screwed or riveted on only one flange (i.e., one side/edge of the RC), which is structurally fine because the load/weight is borne by the panel itself. in other words, the RC acts more as a brace, hence, does not directly support the entire weight of the wall panels.

i'm afraid that putting the weight of the ceiling panels on resilient channels may cause the "freestanding" end of the RC to sag. to compound the problem, you are putting additional weight of rockwool, RCs and two layers of ceiling panels on old wooden ceiling frame that probably was not designed to support that kind of weight. so my newbieness thinks it's not safe.

i personally liked your room within a room idea better; your "isolation booth" within the room. but, as always, the experts have the ultimate say.

[rolexm]

Good day everyone. I've recently come across a place that I plan to make into a jamming room. I just want to reduce the sound that escapes the room. What materials do you guys suggest that I use?

I read that there should be an insulator, barrier, and that pattern thing (usually egg cartons)

I do not want to spend too much. The cheaper the better.

It would be greatly appreciated if you guys could text me at 0906 420 3994. Maybe some of you are selling these materials.

Thank you.

-Rob (Actually a guitarist with a full set of equipment)

[botbenz]

@rolexm: it takes weeks to build a room, so you'll have plenty of time to backread the posts here, as well as scour the Net.

you can start in the right direction by forgetting about egg trays--the most pervasive myth in acoustics. they will do little to keep noise out.

in general, soundproofing requires: 1) air tightness; 2) mass; and 3) isolation

if you want quick answers, read many of mikep's posts, which is treasure trove of best practices!

may your 2009 be happy and adequately soundproofed.

[peeves24]

ok the numbers are in

insulation - 15k total --> that's for 13 rolls of rockwool
gypsum -  12k total --> 41 sheets of 1/2"
light steel framing - 15k --> 74 pieces of horizontal tracks, joists and vertical members
solid core doors - 6k --> 2 doors
split type aircon - 25k

of course hindi pa accounted yung door frames na aabot siguro ng 3k. hindi ko pa rin nagawa yung estimate ng electrical wiring at isolation transformer (somewhere around 20k). not to mention yung mic wires at patch cables na madaling lalampas ng 10k.

then other essentials like bass traps, gobos and room furniture and did i mention i need to buy a new drum kit?

a 4x2 feet bass trap cost about 1500 but i need 10 pieces so that's another cool 15k. since i'll be using a single room/control room/tracking room, im going to need 2 4x2 gobos about 3k each

nalulula na ko but i do have a 1 year plan...and im starting with 6 bass traps muna hehehe to make my existing room bearable to mix in.

haaay over 100k for a 13x7x8 room

[LouieAzcona]

magandang umaga... last na tanong ko na siguro to bago ako bumalik ng manila sa friday... at ang una kong gagawin,,, gagawan na ako ng booth para ma-ensure ang kalinisan ng mga record...

nireview ko kahapon ang thread na to... inspired by your replies...
kaso as always... kailangan isiksik sa maliit na budget ang project...

1. gaano po ba ka-effective mag-isolate ito: 1 layer gypsum + glass fiber batts + 1 layer gypsum.
2. saan po ba ako pwede bumili ng glass fiber batts? (mukang mahirap humanap eh) magkano siya at ano po ba ang pwedeng alternative?

maraming salamat!

[botbenz]

@LouieAzcona: From what I have read, insulation+2x drywall panels performs better (higher STL) than drywall+insulation+drywall, which is what you are contemplating.

I've seen fiberglass batts sold in Home Depot.

Alternative is rockwool, which costs about P250 per 4'x2'x2" panel.

Hope this helps.

[LouieAzcona]

@LouieAzcona: From what I have read, insulation+2x drywall panels performs better (higher STL) than drywall+insulation+drywall, which is what you are contemplating.

I've seen fiberglass batts sold in Home Depot.

Alternative is rockwool, which costs about P250 per 4'x2'x2" panel.

Hope this helps.

so instead of 1 layer of drywall, gawin kong dalawa? tama po ba? bale magiging 4, 2lyaerdrywall+insulation+2layers?

ayos!!! balik na ako manila bukas,,, punta ako agad home depot. salamat po!

[LouieAzcona]

by the way.. being 250 per panel, cheaper ba ang rockwool kesa glass fiber batts? and where can i get these?

[peeves24]

fiberglass is 2x more expensive than rockwool. the cheapest supplier i found so far is:

philippine insulation
pascor bldg pascor st brgy san antonio
sucat, paranaque near casino filipino
call 8517135

by the way, its cheap for me because i live in the south and if i factor in gas and toll gate fees, i would end up saving more if i buy 270 per panel there than look for the store with 250 per panel

also, please be aware that the 250 per panel price is for "rigid" rockwool. if you are going to use it for walls, you need blankets which is a little more expensive by a hundred plus pesos more.

update na rin sa studio build ko: nag start na ko sa room treatments muna

here are the first 2 of my bass traps. 2" thick rigid rockwool panels i got from imc traders at the alabang home depot for 300+ per panel







i really messed up my initial estimate of 1500 per panel because i thought i was going to use blankets which are 1150 per roll. yun pala dapat rigid type ang gagamitin so nakuha ko yung 2 panels at half the price nung blanket

total cost per bass trap is 845

wood 1x2x12 = 110
katsa = 45 per yard
rockwool = 318 per panel but will use 2 panels per trap
thumbtacks = 8.50 <- its too expensive to buy a staple gun

[botbenz]

so instead of 1 layer of drywall, gawin kong dalawa? tama po ba? bale magiging 4, 2lyaerdrywall+insulation+2layers?

what i meant was, if you only have the budget for two layers of drywall, mas acoustically effective (better STL) yung magkadikit na two panels of drywall ("open" yung isang side) kesa sa sandwiched insulation.

[botbenz]

@peeves24:am still on vacation mode, recovering from the cost of building the outer room of my room within a room. my consuelo for the moment is the arrival yesterday of three cases of green glue via balikbayan box.

still, your progress is encouraging. go! para ganahan na rin ako!

[mikep]

what i meant was, if you only have the budget for two layers of drywall, mas acoustically effective (better STL) yung magkadikit na two panels of drywall ("open" yung isang side) kesa sa sandwiched insulation.

Not true.  The better isolation construction is a double leaf wall but with a discontinued studding system and one leaf of the wall will have two gypsum wallboards together.  Thus, the sequence will be 13mm gypsum on steel studs (steel studs with glass fiber blankets in the cavities) + 50 mm air gap (the bigger the air gap, the better isolation) + steel studs on a different floor plate (cavities filled with blanket glass fiber) + 2 pieces of 13mm wallboard (gypsum).  You will achieve a very good STC, higher than the STC 35-39 of a double leaf wall with insulation.   

Are you sure you are constructing a bass trap?  The one you built seems to be more like a wideband absorber than a low frequency absorber, although the 4" thick dense rockwool would have an absorption characteristic that goes down to about 125 hz.  A real bass trap should be one that would absorb real low frequencies.  To do that, you would need a lot of space.  To show, if you are trying to absorb 60 hz., you divide 1133/60 (speed of sound over frequency) and you would need about 18 feet of absorption to trap that frequency.  At quarter wave, that is still about 4 to 5 feet of nothing but absorptive materials!  The way professional studio designers do it is to build bass traps at the back of studios with hanging baffles on cavities with depths of 5 to 10 feet.  The baffles in the cavities tend to absorb real low frequencies but you need a lot of space to do so.  Studios done by Tom Hidley are characterized by these bass traps with large cavities.

To save on space, you can use LF panel absorbers (panels with perforations on a framed cavity) or Helmholtz resonators, but that is another story.

FWIW

[botbenz]

hooray! mikep's still watching over us. salamat po, and happy new year!

sir @mikep: what you suggested is, indeed, better. pero your suggestion po employs three panels of drywall. i guess yung punto ko po is if you can only use two panels, mas mabuti ba yung single leaf with two layers of drywall, or double leaf with single panel of drywall on each leaf?

@LouieAzcona: if you can afford three panels of drywall per section, then mikep's suggestion is definitely the way to go. avoid triple leaf!

yung sa akin kasi double leaf using 8" buhos concrete for the first leaf, 2" air cavity, 2" rockwool on metal frames, plus 2 layers of drywall glued with green glue. but i have only finished the concrete part. gagawin ko pa lang yung metal frames and drywall these next few months.

for your reference:


and

[LouieAzcona]

mukang nasagot na ng usapan niyo ang tanong ko... maraming salamat mga kuya! sobrang excited ko, bumili ako ng jig saw! haha! nakaka-adik magDIY  e!target ko matapos this wednesday... salamat sainyo! 

[mikep]

i guess yung punto ko po is if you can only use two panels, mas mabuti ba yung single leaf with two layers of drywall, or double leaf with single panel of drywall on each leaf?

yung sa akin kasi double leaf using 8" buhos concrete for the first leaf, 2" air cavity, 2" rockwool on metal frames, plus 2 layers of drywall glued with green glue. but i have only finished the concrete part. gagawin ko pa lang yung metal frames and drywall these next few months.

for your reference:


and

Double leaf with insulation would be better.  If you have CHB as your first wall, then, 2" air gap + insulation on metal studs, then 2 pcs or 3 pcs. gypsum would be good.  You are using air (2") as part of your insulation.

Avoid 3 or 4 drawings.  Better to use 1 pc. gypsum on metal studs with insulation, 2" air gap, metal studs with insulation, then 2 or 3 pcs. gypsum is better.  Again, you use the cavity to trap unwanted soundswaves for soundproofing.  Also, the bigger your cavity, say 4" air gap, the better, but you will be using up a lot of precious real estate.  The bigger the cavity the lower frequency you will be able to trap from going inside your room.  Room acoustics is a different issue altogether, with a different of design for diffusers, absorbers and reflectors.

FWIW
 

[peeves24]

@peeves24:am still on vacation mode, recovering from the cost of building the outer room of my room within a room. my consuelo for the moment is the arrival yesterday of three cases of green glue via balikbayan box.

still, your progress is encouraging. go! para ganahan na rin ako!

wow ang mahal nun! hehehe

Are you sure you are constructing a bass trap?  The one you built seems to be more like a wideband absorber than a low frequency absorber, although the 4" thick dense rockwool would have an absorption characteristic that goes down to about 125 hz.  A real bass trap should be one that would absorb real low frequencies.  To do that, you would need a lot of space.  To show, if you are trying to absorb 60 hz., you divide 1133/60 (speed of sound over frequency) and you would need about 18 feet of absorption to trap that frequency.  At quarter wave, that is still about 4 to 5 feet of nothing but absorptive materials!  The way professional studio designers do it is to build bass traps at the back of studios with hanging baffles on cavities with depths of 5 to 10 feet.  The baffles in the cavities tend to absorb real low frequencies but you need a lot of space to do so.  Studios done by Tom Hidley are characterized by these bass traps with large cavities.

To save on space, you can use LF panel absorbers (panels with perforations on a framed cavity) or Helmholtz resonators, but that is another story.

FWIW

bass trap of sorts  a lot of people call them bass traps so i go with the flow. i do understand what you mean about the relationship of the thickness of the absorber and the full wave that it can contain but space is really an issue.

im incorporating a helmholtz resonator at the backwall to absorb 62hertz. what's going to happen is that the gypsum on the backwall will be installed at the back of the insulation. then i'll be putting up a 1/2" plywood on top as finishing.

now by the looks of it, its going to be a 3leaf system but in fact, its a combined hemlholtz resonator and floating wall. im going to be able to save about 4 to 5 inches of space for this treatment but the big question is will it work? will it also compromise my isolation?


diagram to follow...

[alien_inside]

one rockwool supplier is CSR in Alabang... Call Gina Hynson 0918 925 1108... 250 yung Fibertex 50...

[botbenz]

fiberglass is 2x more expensive than rockwool.

@peeves24: are you comparing prices based on density?

because i saw this in home depot last month:

[peeves24]

@bot - wait, did that pic really say 15 METERS? not 15 feet or 5meters. if it is then that's cheap. the pricelist i saw puts 16kg fiberglass at 2x the price of 60kg rockwool of the same size 50mm x 1.2m x 5m

@alien - CSR does not sell directly to individuals, you have to pay a visit to one of their dealers. but yes, do call them first and ask for the dealer nearest your place

[botbenz]

@peeves: judging by the size of the roll, which was bigger than concrete drainage pipes they bury under our roads, 15m looks correct.

i did not consider fiberglass insulation because most of the studios i have browsed on the web used rockwool. but when i finished building my outer room, i realized that the poured concrete walls attenuated external noise rather sufficiently, hence, allowing me to scale down the specs for my inner room build.

in fact, i contemplated doing away with the rockwool insulation in the metal frame, and just settling for the 4" air cavity as insulation. it would've saved me p30k in rockwool cost. but i thought that mineral fiber would help reduce resonance. so now, i am thinking of using fiberglass behind the drywall, then using rigid rockwool for in-room absorption--bass traps, broadband absorbers, etc. that's my plan, for the moment.

[alien_inside]

@alien - CSR does not sell directly to individuals, you have to pay a visit to one of their dealers. but yes, do call them first and ask for the dealer nearest your place

they called me...and ask me about my order... so they sell to individuals...THEY ALSO SHIP to your doorstep. but you pay shipping/truck/delivery... ako i have to pick up kasi shipping will cost more than fare.

[LouieAzcona]

im almost done with my recording booth... pero may isang problema pa po ako...

paano ko papapapasukin ung hangin ng WINDOW type aircon ko papunta sa booth ko? pipes? fan? posible po ba yun?  naaawa na kasi ako sa sarili ko at kung anu anong weird na ideas ang naiisip ko. haha! hindi ko naman kaya bumili ng split type. not now.

by the way... may mga nakikita akong portable na aircon sa ace hardware... pwede bang gamitin yun para magkaroon ng ventilation ung booth? hindi naman sa bibilhin ko siya kapag sinabi niyong "oo" haha... curious lang po. salamat!

[botbenz]

@LouieAzcona, i can't speak from experience as i have never tried this. but you might want to try a simpler version of this, from rod gervais' home recording studio construction book:



make ducts that you can't peer into. and line the duct with sound proofing insulation.

but if you want to go dirt cheap, you can try to open/close method: open booth door during practice or breaks, close during recording. inexpensive, but can be disruptive; not something you want to do often, especially when the artist is on a roll or is "in the zone".

[LouieAzcona]

@LouieAzcona, i can't speak from experience as i have never tried this. but you might want to try a simpler version of this, from rod gervais' home recording studio construction book:



make ducts that you can't peer into. and line the duct with sound proofing insulation.

but if you want to go dirt cheap, you can try to open/close method: open booth door during practice or breaks, close during recording. inexpensive, but can be disruptive; not something you want to do often, especially when the artist is on a roll or is "in the zone".

tns sir botbenz. tama tama... ayaw ko nga ung "open close"  so "medyo" may sense din naman pala ang binabalak ko. hahaha. dalawang daanan pala ang kailangan no? isang paloob at isang palabas? ano yan? para makahinga yung tao sa loob?

[alien_inside]

I found another ROCKWOOL Supplier.
8 pcs per pack: 1200mm x 600mm x 50mm; 50kg/ Cubic meter

napakamura: P1520 per pack, or P190 per pc. its CSR Rockwool

Look at photos...