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Author Topic: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?  (Read 2461 times)

Offline redhat

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how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« on: February 01, 2010, 02:33:48 PM »
Hi guys! I don't know if meron nbang ganitong thread. I'm sorry if meron na, paki post nlang link if so. :( hehehe

1. how do you make your track's volume the same as papa roach's or tokio hotel's?
2. how do you EQ so that your track would not have so much high freq when played on an ipod, but very high low freq on a car?

Offline djshoi

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2010, 12:57:30 PM »
Bro, the process of mixing is not a straightforward process, it involves the use of different reference monitors to allow your track to sound as close to the original mix on every imaginable sound setup. Usually, a studio uses a least three monitors as reference namely - headphones, small speakers(usually your studio reference monitor), large speakers (a speaker with a woofer and a subwoofer) . Your mix must sound consistent as possible in all three monitors. In your question, you must remember that headphones lacks bass but has a very bright high and mid frequency. So the trick that I use is first adjust the mix in your small speakers until it sounds ok while eliminating all distortions and clipping. Then listen to your mix in your headphone. If you feel that your mix needs bass adjustments then adjust your bass, drum track accordingly. Then listen to your mix again in your small speakers paying more attention in finding clipping and distortions. Repeat the process again until you are happy with your mix. Software automation in your volumes, panning, eq setting can also help.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2010, 01:56:48 PM by djshoi »

Offline juanjudas

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #2 on: April 13, 2010, 07:42:55 AM »
Bro, the process of mixing is not a straightforward process, it involves the use of different reference monitors to allow your track to sound as close to the original mix on every imaginable sound setup. Usually, a studio uses a least three monitors as reference namely - headphones, small speakers(usually your studio reference monitor), large speakers (a speaker with a woofer and a subwoofer) . Your mix must sound consistent as possible in all three monitors. In your question, you must remember that headphones lacks bass but has a very bright high and mid frequency. So the trick that I use is first adjust the mix in your small speakers until it sounds ok while eliminating all distortions and clipping. Then listen to your mix in your headphone. If you feel that your mix needs bass adjustments then adjust your bass, drum track accordingly. Then listen to your mix again in your small speakers paying more attention in finding clipping and distortions. Repeat the process again until you are happy with your mix. Software automation in your volumes, panning, eq setting can also help.


Takes a lot of work...hehe
What if I'm short of the budget and space, is there an alternative on having 3 types of speakers?

Have the budget but not the space...is the Beats by Dr. DRe (Studio) sufficient?  Many Thanks!
http://www.beatsbydre.com/products/Products.aspx?pid=B3808

Offline bellhaus

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #3 on: April 13, 2010, 11:28:37 AM »
sa akin mo pagawa! hehehe! joke lang!

1. how do you make your track's volume the same as papa roach's or tokio hotel's?
MASTERING to sir. need to have good room, the best monitors, and good set of ears. pero sa akin presets ng ik multimedia nalang! hehe!
2. how do you EQ so that your track would not have so much high freq when played on an ipod, but very high low freq on a car?
refernce mo yung track na pag gagayahan kung same na sa papa roach or tokio bawat levels natumbok mo na!

Offline starfugger

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2010, 02:10:42 PM »
it takes a long time to learn the art of mixing.  a good starting place is to listen to a particular recording and note down all  its nuances.  then read about the basics of mixing, or watch an instructional video such as Charles Dye's Mix It Like A Record.  try to tie together your chosen recording's nuances with the concepts you've learned.  make intelligent guesses on how the sounds were achieved, from the instruments used, to how they were mic'd and hooked up (possibly noting down which equipment and techniques were employed), and how the song was mixed.  download a bunch of decent raw tracks from the net and mix it in your own DAW, applying the theories you've learned, and use your favorite song as reference material (put it on one track and mute it, occassionally solo'ing to see if you've gotten close to the drum, bass, vocal, and overall sound).  most of all, make a bunch of mistakes ... in the field of mixing, this is one sure way of getting things right, eventually. :-)
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Offline skunkyfunk

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #5 on: April 14, 2010, 03:00:49 PM »
Easier said than done.  In my eleven years of doing this, I still feel I suck. 

Offline mikep

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #6 on: April 14, 2010, 03:06:44 PM »
Learn how to hear and segregate each instrument or vocals from the total mix using your ears.  Learn the tonal qualities of the instruments, i. e., which on has highs, mid high, mids, low mids, lows.  Learn how to listen to the entire mix using the frequency divisions as mentioned above.  Takes time but one you've bag it, it is easy.

Good luck.
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Offline km-r

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #7 on: April 14, 2010, 05:22:20 PM »
MASTERING, naku... nakakapagod yan.
i have to listen to my tracks again and again to spot subtle corrections needed kahit na pang demo quality lang talaga.
tapos when i play my track in some other audio source naku iba na naman yung timpla!
kahit na nandidiri ako makinig sa boses ko sige lang!

mag record ng mag record you will notice na nag iimprove ka pakinggan mo mga tracks na nirecord mo noon at ngayon.

Offline bellhaus

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2010, 11:53:01 AM »
mag record ng mag record you will notice na nag iimprove ka pakinggan mo mga tracks na nirecord mo noon at ngayon.

korek!

Offline DCham

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2010, 08:17:44 PM »
Hire Angie Rozul to mix it!  :lol:

Seriously what I do is import the track from the CD you want to sound like into my workstation. Put it up on an extra track and compare it to my mix. Of course you need to find something that sounds similar. I am assuming we are using a DAW like ProTools, Nuendo, Sonar etc . . .

Next part is a bit confusing so you'll have to follow me here.

You do not need expensive speakers or someone else's reference monitors as long as you know how your speakers sound in reference to commercial CDs. This is really important. My partner mixes a lot of his jingles on his laptop speakers and we are all amazed how good it sounds when played back on TV or even his P75K Genelec monitors. The other rule is LEARN TO USE YOUR EARS and not the DAW window and meters. Of course make sure you are not distorting or peaking the meters. But use your ears when comparing. I am also assuming most of your reading this already know how to mix and EQ etc. . .

Having said that here is step one . . .

Assign all the outputs of your tracks to a master aux. This includes all the aux returns of your reverb or instruments. This master aux return is then assigned to your stereo master. You put all your mastering plug-in inserts on this master aux return and NOT the stereo master. This is where you will do all your EQ and compression to try to get close to your commercial CD mix as possible.

You then make a new track and assign that to your stereo master. That is your reference track where you put the commercial CD track you want to sound like. From there you can A/B the two.

The reason for this is that the commercial track is already mastered. You do not want to just drag it into a track as all your bus compression and EQ will affect that as well. You can now mute and unmute tracks to see how far or how close it is to the commercial mix. I just drag my reference track to another part of my session file so I can jump back and forth between it without having to do any muting.

I usually start with all EQ and Compression and FX OFF and pan pots all center. . . then try to build a balance similar to the commercial CD. At this point you will not sound as loud but that is OK. Bring one instrument up one at a time. Starting with the drums and bass, then vocals , followed by the guitars then pads. Listen and get as good a balance vs the commercial CD as possible. It is not that hard to do with practice. I then Mute everything except the vocals, as this is the most important part of the mix. I then EQ and compress very lightly to bring up what makes the vocal sound good. You also check your dynamics and levels to make sure the vocals remain consistent in level use your ears and not just your eyes. You then un-Mute your other instruments one at a time around the vocal and start EQing and compressing so that you build a hole around the vocal and it is still heard clearly even when it is back in the mix. As you have set preset levels the first time, it will already sound good and you just need to level, EQ and compress your instruments so they do not cover the vocal. Things will still not sound as loud as your CD mix, but just get the vocal to sit like the one in your reference CD. I try not to move the vocal as much as possible and move everything else as this is what glues your whole mix together. Make sense? Just get the balance and bass levels as close to your reference mix as possible and don't worry if it is not as loud.

Once you put in all the EQ and compression and balance . . . you then add your effects. Oh I forgot everything until at this point is all in mono. Once you get a good mix in mono start panning out and adding the reverb and delays. If your mixer or DAW has a mono switch check back to mono and see if you did not loose anything in the balance. Again don't worry if your mix does not sound as loud as the reference. Just make sure the general balance is similar.

Once that step is done . . . start adding your mastering plugins in the master auxiliary master bus . . . this is when you start comparing between your CD track and your mix. The first thing I do is put on a Peak Limiter like a Waves L1 or any Peak limiter plugin your have. I usually drop my output ceiling to -0.3dBFS. Then lower my threshold to get about 3-4dB of limiting in the loudest most busy parts of your mix. At this point your mix should sound pretty close to the CD mix in loudness. Occasionally I'll add some mastering EQ or other effects before the Limiter. While A/Bing with the reference CD mix. Experiment and use your ears, there are no rules and we all have different taste in music. With practice you should be able to get within 80% of your reference CD mix even with the most basic DAW.  Start doing minor tweaks in level and EQ to get your mix sounding like the reference CD. Also at this point do not make big moves in volume and EQ in your individual tracks. The moves should just be subtle. The peak limiting will make everything brighter and more upfront and loud like the commercial CD.

Another tip is do not mix loud, just at normal conversation level. And go out of your room and listen to it in the hallway through an open door. It should still sound good and even.  Watch the bass of your mix. If you get the bass to sound like the bass of the reference mix, then it will sound real good on the radio. Practice makes perfect as well. Like riding a bike you will get better every time you fall.

This is how I do it in a nut shell and it took me years to learn how to do it this way. Like Dumbo and his magic feather in the cartoon, you'll soon have the confidence to mix without having to use your reference CD mix. One day you'll find out your flying without that magic feather.

Of course this is a reader's digest version  . . . there is a reason people pay the big bucks to hire the best in the business and it is the players as well as the engineers who make a great sounding record. Like I said in the top of this post . . .hire Angie Rozul LOL!

Still I am surprised at what you can get with the simplest of equipment. That nice studio I showed in one of my other posts was just my midlife crisis room. You can do it with a simple computer and basic software. Just remember less is more.

Hope this helps.

Cheers.




« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 08:50:32 PM by DCham »
Dennis Cham
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HIT Productions www.hitproductions.net

Offline DCham

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2010, 09:10:11 PM »
To add . . . do not get scared of doing lots of automation of levels and FX. In the old days when I was a second engineer at a big US studio I watched my heroes like Ron Nevison and Jim Gaines mix Santana and Starship. These guys would be jumping all over the console playing it like a musical instrument. One of the saddest things I see in most local mixing sessions is the faders just sitting in one place. We have it easy today with the ability to write and draw our automation levels and pans in our mixer windows.

Just my 2 centavos . . . whatever that is worth.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2010, 10:42:14 PM by DCham »
Dennis Cham
Senior Partner / CTO
HIT Productions www.hitproductions.net

Offline acidtest

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2010, 02:52:08 AM »
nice tips! it seems im on the right track but there's a couple of things mentioned here i havent tried yet. cant wait to get home to try that master aux trick and i already thought of a variant. ill try that as well later.  :-D
- Joyo AC tone demo

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=736032  
feature=related  KBP musicfest teaser - 'Nandito lang' - entry number w00511

Offline DCham

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2010, 09:09:21 AM »
Yup, I could write another 20 posts on all the different tricks and tips which were discovered either by accident or watching other mixers work. Pretty much just gave a general recipe and you guys need to adapt to your working style. There are probably a dozen other ways to do this, but this worked for me. We do a lot of jingles where we always have to copy the sound of this song or that song. This style grew out of that need.

A few other things to remember. The arrangement is king. Why most songs sound bad is because of sloppy arrangements with instruments clashing against each other. So if your basics and arrangements are not there all the mixing in the world will not save it. With unlimited tracks we tend to stack and stack. If you see the screens of some big name sessions, you'll see how surprisingly simple are. Less is more. Yes when they track they may have a hundred mics and a hundred tracks, but in the mix stage it is simplified to facilitate a good logical mix. Big name mixers have assistants who clean and prep their tracks for mixing (again subject of another post as I am blabbing too much again) I also buy a lot of CDs and listen carefully to what they are doing in the mix. Like wanna be comic book artist study their favorite big name artist and try to copy their style.

Also one thing about learning your speakers. Start with what you have and listen to a lot of CDs and study how the bass sounds against the vocal and guitars etc. Learn how they sound in your room and practice in your space. Always mix in the same area. There's an art to placing speakers in most home setups so they sound best. Probably a subject of another post. Even if you have just a set of Logictec computer speakers you eventually can get a good mix on them if you know how they sound with commercially mixed CDs. Of course the better speakers the more you can analyze how things sound. To admit, my partner's Apple Laptop sounds real good. One guy posted also is to check in headphones. Good idea, but best to know one set intimately. Surprised many will go out and buy something because some big name guy said he can only mix out this or that brand and find out your mixes still sound bad. It is just what they are used to and what works for them will not work for you if you do not take time to learn your speakers. NS10s are really not the most accurate speakers in the world, but because Bob Clearmountain mixed some amazing sounding commercially successful records on NS10s they took off. Most people also do not realize that all these big name engineers were running their NS10s through big 200 - 400 watt power amps. That changes how NS10s sound totally. That is a secret few people know. They also knew how loud to drive their NS10s before the tweeters blew. In a nutshell I am just saying use your ears and learn your speaker.

Happy mixing!

« Last Edit: May 11, 2010, 09:27:50 AM by DCham »
Dennis Cham
Senior Partner / CTO
HIT Productions www.hitproductions.net

Offline acidtest

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2010, 04:42:36 PM »
Your general recipe is more than welcome sir. I already stumbled on some of the tricks posted here. It just never occurred to me to create an alternate aux even though I've been creating multiple  alternate inputs to lessen the takes for mic/eq variations. Since I'm not aware of any actual course/s offered on the islands regarding audio recording and production, all I can do is dive in and try it until I figure how it woks. That method requires a lot of time (as if this craft is not time consuming enough as it  is) and that is a commodity i barely have. (8 hour unrelated job - well the technical part helps somewhat) There's a lot of tips all over the web but Its a pain filtering out the gold from garbage.
Your stand with the ns10s is also encouraging since this craft (hobby for me - at least for now) requires some equipment (expensive ones!) that virtually wont be of use anywhere else.
Most people (musicians or ex-musicians - me)  into this use whatever tools/equipment they already have (standard band equipment combined with old mixer, stage microphones, home stereos etc...) or at the very least, invest in low end 'proper' equipment to learn stuff and get things done. I doubt that's something that most pro folks would consider as quality or more specifically - industry standard.

By any chance do you have a group or mailing list of tips that i can tap to?   
- Joyo AC tone demo

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=736032  
feature=related  KBP musicfest teaser - 'Nandito lang' - entry number w00511

Offline DCham

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2010, 12:15:15 AM »
Maybe one day . . . I should actually do one for home studio guys. Anyone interested let me know. Too busy at the moment, about to step on a plane for Tokyo then off to San Francisco for a week or so.
Dennis Cham
Senior Partner / CTO
HIT Productions www.hitproductions.net

Offline skyturn

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2010, 05:16:40 AM »
i'm the amateur of all amateur on this, but referencing is what i can suggest.
and one trick tip, once you've done your roll offs, leveling, imaging and what not...
never mix at beyond "normal" levels.  drowning your ears doesn't really help one bit.
I in fact finalize the mix with the volume at 3 or lower.  my logic is that if it sounds just as good when you were working on it at higher levels, then you're on your way.

Mastering... now that's the tricky part.... that's where you kill your ears.  that's just me.

p.s.  clean tracking, nice arrangement, good song is really what makes good music to start with

I

Offline alien_inside

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2010, 07:19:20 PM »
EQUALIZING: Always start at FLAT RESPONSE. ( i posted this before... di ko na mahanap eh... from MIXING ENGINEER"S HANDBOOK )

Lets start with the BASS GUITAR. The bottom freq of the bass guitar ranges from 50 to 80hz. Add some attack by boosting up 700hz, and its clarity on the 2.5khz band.

The KICK’s bottom freq is 80 to 100hz. Its hollowness is at 400hz, the punch is at 3-5khz.

The SNARE’s fatness is at 120 – 240 hz, cutting on this freq ranges makes your snare sound thin. You may ask your drummer the sound he wants anyway. Also play LM sweep knob on the 900hz, then try to cut or boost on that, its crispiness is at 5k, and the attack sound is at 10khz.

Toms fullness is at 240 to 500hz. The attack is at 5 – 7khz.

Floor toms are slightly different. Its fullness or sound body is at 80 to 120 and the attack is at 3 to 5khz.

Hihat, and overheads. Start pulling down at 200hz, its sparkle and crispiness at 8 to 10khz.

Electric guitars. Fullnes at 240 to 500 hz. Presence at 1.5 to 2.5 khz.

Keyboards. Fullness at 80hz. Presence at 2.5 to 5k, crispiness is at 7 to 10khz.

Voicals fullness at 120 to 240hz, 2 to 4k range emphasizes the consonants, or the sounds produced by the LIPS…. presence and clarity is at 5khz, and brightness at 7 to 10khz.
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Offline lovecore

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Re: how to make your mix the sound like a commercial track?
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2010, 02:35:56 PM »
Hey Dennis,

Cyril here! Awesome tips and great advice! It's refreshing to see advice that considers home studios and doesn't really go by the "expensive gear is better thinking." For someone in your position especially, it's nice to get feedback and thoughts that address the needs, but work on what people currently have than what we don't.

I'd subscribe to your tutorials as well should you decide to put a site or mailing list up  :-D

see you in Manila when you get back :lol: