Transferring Analog tracks from an MT8x to a PC

[titser_marco]

Hi! I currently record my demos on an old Yamaha MT8x that uses a regular cassette tape to record 8 tracks of audio. When I tried to transfer the audio to my PC using the the integrated audio card's stereo line input, I hardpanned each track to ensure that both are isolated when I recorded them on Cool Edit Pro as separate mono tracks.

However, when I started recording the succeeding tracks, I noticed that synching them was such a b**ch. It seems that whenever I try to align the tracks with respect to the tracks' initial beats, but as the tracks play, they start to become out of sync.

I'm guessing that there could two causes for this. First, it could be caused by a weak interface. With this in mind, I reckon I just have to get a good audio interface.

Second, it could be caused by tape warp and as such, I can't really do transfers on a track by track basis. The only thing left for me to do would be to play them all at once to transfer them simultaneously, since each track has a tape out RCA plug. I think that this will eliminate the problem of synching the audio.

Now my questions would be:

1. Will a Firewire mixer with 8 inputs allow me to record each of the tape out signals into separate tracks when I record them simultaneously? I've read that USB mixers can only record a stereo track even when I feed it with several tracks.

2. If a Firewire mixer can't let me do this, what's the best soundcard that I can use for my purposes? I know that there's an M-AUDIO 1010LT for sale here and based on what I've read, this can work for my purposes. I just want to know if there are other options out there that might also work for this task that I have to do, just so I can compare prices, features, etc.

Thanks in advance!

[KitC]

1 - yes it can as long as you can assure that the mixer will track each channel individually. Some mixers have stereo channels; just make sure that the individual left and right channels can be recorded as individual mono.

2 - yes, the 1010LT can do it, but remember that the first 2 channels on the 1010LT are XLR which can be configured for line level (but I never did figure out that one). Any 2-channel/stereo soundcard can be used as long as you are able to insert a timing click or pulse at the beginning of each track in the cassette. The hard part is arming all tracks on the MT8 then having it record something like a sharp rimshot on all 8 tracks at the same time. Not all 8-tracks can do that, usually you can only record 4 tracks at a time with most consumer 8-track recorders.

[starfugger]

if i understand correctly you are trying to transfer your tape-based multi tracks into a DAW, right?  ok here goes ...

1.  yes if your tape multi-track machine has 8 separate outputs.  if it doesn't then the 8 firwire inputs won't mean much. 

2.  any interface with at least 8 analog line inputs will do the trick.  but i will reiterate: your source has to have 8 separate outputs as well for you to be able to record all the 8 tracks simultaneously.

[titser_marco]

1 - yes it can as long as you can assure that the mixer will track each channel individually. Some mixers have stereo channels; just make sure that the individual left and right channels can be recorded as individual mono.

2 - yes, the 1010LT can do it, but remember that the first 2 channels on the 1010LT are XLR which can be configured for line level (but I never did figure out that one). Any 2-channel/stereo soundcard can be used as long as you are able to insert a timing click or pulse at the beginning of each track in the cassette. The hard part is arming all tracks on the MT8 then having it record something like a sharp rimshot on all 8 tracks at the same time. Not all 8-tracks can do that, usually you can only record 4 tracks at a time with most consumer 8-track recorders.

1. Yeah, I think Cool Edit Pro allows me to do that. When I initially tried the transfers, I was able to record the drum machine track to the left channel and the guitar to the right.

2. I see. I guess this is one thing I failed to do; lack of digital foresight, I guess. I'll try recording a new song this weekend and I'll put some click tracks on all 8 tracks so I can align them. I think this will be possible with the drum machine. I just have to ride the tracks that I record first with the drum machine. Or I can just bounce them to the other tracks so I don't have to ride them with the drum machine. I'll try transferring them then two tracks at a time and see if they'll sync. If they don't, would it be safe to assume that there is some tape warble that happens?

[titser_marco]

if i understand correctly you are trying to transfer your tape-based multi tracks into a DAW, right?  ok here goes ...

1.  yes if your tape multi-track machine has 8 separate outputs.  if it doesn't then the 8 firwire inputs won't mean much. 

2.  any interface with at least 8 analog line inputs will do the trick.  but i will reiterate: your source has to have 8 separate outputs as well for you to be able to record all the 8 tracks simultaneously.

Yeah, the MT8x has 8 separate tape outs.

[titser_marco]

Another question: Is it possible to cascade soundcards? I'm thinking of getting a Behringer USB Audio Interface so that I have a total of two stereo inputs (a total of four mono). Would this work? Would it be possible to cascade up to four Behringer USB interfaces? Or would I be better off in getting just an M-Audio 1010LT?

[KitC]

would it be safe to assume that there is some tape warble that happens?

Unless you've got some really whacked out tape there, I haven't seen (or rather, heard) tape warble affect tracks individually... unless the capstan and pinch roller isn't controlling tape speed properly with each pass. Maybe the tape is slipping ever so slightly with each playback?

[titser_marco]

Unless you've got some really whacked out tape there, I haven't seen (or rather, heard) tape warble affect tracks individually... unless the capstan and pinch roller isn't controlling tape speed properly with each pass. Maybe the tape is slipping ever so slightly with each playback?

I'm afraid I might be using "warble" incorrectly, but I guess what you mentioned at the end could be the thing that's affecting the syncing. After all, this is a cassette tape - pretty small for 8 tracks by most standards.

Would it be possible to have several active soundcards in my system so I can dump all the tracks at the same time?

[KitC]

Actually, 8-track cassette was pretty mature by the time they decided to put it to pasture. The only thing going against it was the rather slow speeds, limited recording times, and you can't really slam it with high levels or the signals will 'bleed' onto adjacent tracks.

You can use multiple soundcards with the caveat that they should preferably be using the same drivers and/or locked to the same clock. M-Audio, for ex., allows you to use several of the Delta series pci cards in one pc and they will sync to each other using the same driver. Having synced clocks among soundcards assures that tracks recorded thru different cards will remain tightly locked and there will be no drift between the 2 or more cards. If the cards have digital I/O, you can use that to provide sync between the 2 cards; just assign one to be the timing master while the other slaves to that card..

[titser_marco]

I see.How do I set these sync parameters with non M-Audio soundcards?

Re: 8-track - Just to be clear, my recorder uses regular cassettes and slams 8-tracks into them. How I wish I could use the other 8-track cassette that had a wider tape.

[KitC]

I'm very much aware of those 8-track machines and their cassette. Like how many people do you know who use normal bias cassettes with those?  (and I know quite a few)    I've fuddled around with a few multittracks and let's just say the distance between tracks in one of those 8-track cassettes is phenomenal! It's the rare machine that allows you to record to all 8 tracks simultaneously; usually it's in batches of 4, and sometimes 2!

About syncing, let's get this out of the way. You can't do it with ordinary soundcards if they don't have digital I/O. It's the digital audio stream that carries the timing data and the receiving device can be set to slave to that timing pulse. Name one inexpensive soundcard that has digital I/O... hirap no? If I were to recommend a card for you, it would be something like the M-Audio Delta 1010LT which has 8 analog I/O, or maybe even the Emu 1212m paired with a Behringer ADA8000 for 10 simultaneously available analog I/O. I know these cards don't come cheap, but they are by far the cheapest options available.

[titser_marco]

I'm very much aware of those 8-track machines and their cassette. Like how many people do you know who use normal bias cassettes with those?  (and I know quite a few)    I've fuddled around with a few multittracks and let's just say the distance between tracks in one of those 8-track cassettes is phenomenal! It's the rare machine that allows you to record to all 8 tracks simultaneously; usually it's in batches of 4, and sometimes 2!

About syncing, let's get this out of the way. You can't do it with ordinary soundcards if they don't have digital I/O. It's the digital audio stream that carries the timing data and the receiving device can be set to slave to that timing pulse. Name one inexpensive soundcard that has digital I/O... hirap no? If I were to recommend a card for you, it would be something like the M-Audio Delta 1010LT which has 8 analog I/O, or maybe even the Emu 1212m paired with a Behringer ADA8000 for 10 simultaneously available analog I/O. I know these cards don't come cheap, but they are by far the cheapest options available.

Yeah, I did some reading and I guess that's the cheapest way to go. Or, a cheaper way of minimising this would be to get an Audiophile 2496 so I can bounce 4 tracks at the same time - at least I don't have to realign everything individually.

And yes, I am one of those who made the mistake of using Type I cassettes for this recorder. I used a Type I 90 minute cassette for these demos I'm referring to: do you think this is one reason for the tape lag?

[KitC]

And yes, I am one of those who made the mistake of using Type I cassettes for this recorder. I used a Type I 90 minute cassette for these demos I'm referring to: do you think this is one reason for the tape lag?

I'm not saying you can't use Type I, but most inexpensive formulations have a very bad tendency to shed oxide particles. What's worse is that noise is higher on Type I than on chromium or metal tapes.

Most cassette recorders don't recommend going higher than 90 min (or even 60 min) tapes simply because these longer tapes are usually thinner, thus have a tendency to be easily stretchable. There is considerable tension when the tape is  being pulled by the take up reel while speed is being regulated by the capstan/pinch roller. If the pinch roller doesn't exert enough pressure on the capstan, it can cause the tape to slide; one of the reasons I used to religiously clean tape heads and the capstan before every transfer.

There is a solution to the warble, albeit a bit labor intensive... use Sonar 6's Audiosnap feature.

[titser_marco]

I see. I'll go to my friend's studio and see if he can do that for me in Sonar.

I'll also try punching in rhythm tracks (the rimshot guide) at the beginning of the tracks - buti na lang I have 30 seconds of tape before each song I recorded.

So the 1010LT seems to be the most logical, choice then, right? I mean, since this thing has 8 tape outs (which also sends signals being recorded when the line input button is activated), I can route all of them at the same time to the PC. It'll be more of a mixer then than a recording device - something that I see happening when the tape section effs up.

Thanks Kit! Balitaan kita re: transfer.

[titser_marco]

Hah! The click track thing worked, for the most part at least! I just punched in a few seconds of rimshots at the beginning of all songs and syncing wasn't such a b**ch anymore. Because of this,I presumed that the other tracks which had problematic syncing even after doing this trick were suffering from issues of performance as opposed to equipment.

Thanks everyone!

[KitC]

Good thing it worked for you, teach! (i was gonna use the local spelling but it came up... well... you know)

Here's an interesting bit of trivia for you. Did you know that the click procedure is also used in movies? Often, there is someone recording dialogue to tape while a scene is being filmed. Ever wondered why they have those "clapper boards" with the scene and take number, then they go, "Scene 1 take 1" then the bar comes down hard and emits a loud clack? It's interesting with video... aligning that clack with the frame that shows the bar hitting the clapperboard (and compensating for the fact that sound travels slower than light).