MODS: please bomb this silly topic that was resurrected from the dead...

[abyssinianson]

Tone is a function of money. - oas

If that is the case, could one say that BB King doesn't know what he is talking about when he says, "Give me any guitar and amp, and I will get my sound, because my soul is me and not the instrument.?"

I believe that tone is not always a function of money because it is relative and not dependent on each other as factors. Analogously, could one say - for sure - that intelligence and the ability to deduce logically is a function of how many years of schooling you have had? Not necessarily. Why? Because, in my day, I have met a ton of people that say stupid ass [gooey brown stuff] despite having had years of education at the graduate level. A Ph.D, MBA, or M.D. doesn't save you from inherently being a dumba$$, thats ALL you.

[skunkyfunk]

Tone is a function of money. - oas

If that is the case, could one say that BB King doesn't know what he is talking about when he says, "Give me any guitar and amp, and I will get my sound, because my soul is me and not the instrument.?"

I believe that tone is not always a function of money because it is relative and not dependent on each other as factors. Analogously, could one say - for sure - that intelligence and the ability to deduce logically is a function of how many years of schooling you have had? Not necessarily. Why? Because, in my day, I have met a ton of people that say stupid ass [gooey brown stuff] despite having had years of education at the graduate level. A Ph.D, MBA, or M.D. doesn't save you from inherently being a dumba$$, thats ALL you.

Oh yes.  Just look at our politicians.  

[jplacson]

Hmmm... my take on tone...

I think it's a bit of a misleading question.

If you're talking about "sonic" tone, then that's the gear.  "Musical" tone is all you.

Riffs & licks aside, tone comes from a lot of things... how hard you press the fretboard, where in the fret -closer to the fret, middle, farther back, at an angle, etc...
 ... where you pick -closer to the bridge, closer to the neck... every mm makes a diff, and everyone subconsciously plays in their own 'sweet spot' ... even your physical build affects how you play since it affects how your guitar is positioned to your body... the angle of your pick, the pick you choose... etc.  Palm muting (or not muting) is a big factor as well, since no 2 people will mute the exact same way, with the exact same pressure, at the exact same angle.

All these things affect your tone... and why you play the way you play are the reasons behind your tone.

On a psychological level, when you play on someone else's gear, your mind tries to get the sound YOU want out of their gear... adjusting how you pick, where you pick...etc...etc... until what you hear, is as close to your 'tone' as you can get with the given rig... hence the reason for why your tone seems to follow you around.

[abyssinianson]

Tone is a function of money. - oas

If that is the case, could one say that BB King doesn't know what he is talking about when he says, "Give me any guitar and amp, and I will get my sound, because my soul is me and not the instrument.?"

I believe that tone is not always a function of money because it is relative and not dependent on each other as factors. Analogously, could one say - for sure - that intelligence and the ability to deduce logically is a function of how many years of schooling you have had? Not necessarily. Why? Because, in my day, I have met a ton of people that say stupid ass [gooey brown stuff] despite having had years of education at the graduate level. A Ph.D, MBA, or M.D. doesn't save you from inherently being a dumba$$, thats ALL you.

Oh yes.  Just look at our politicians.  

So sad...has it gotten better? I heard there was just a coup attempt. Amazing....it never ends doesn't it? To make it worse, it always seems to be the military behind it! Mother of God! There ought to be a set of prerequisites to getting an elected government seat in the Phils, seriously. I mean, FPJ as a Senator?!? What has that Arroyo woman been doing that has been useful?

[SDMF]

For a position running a city, province or country dapat required at least may college degree!

I mean kung college professor nga e...ilang estudyante/sections lang hawak nyan pero required sya na may Masters Degree...Un pa kaya magpatakbo ng bansa??!! Buhay ng mga Pilipino nakataya dito!
 

[oasgomez-is-banned]

Last I checked, BB King is still using a Gibson Lucille.  I believe BB King meant all things being equal from one ES guitar to another.

When I meant that tone is a function of money, I was referring to timbre and instrument characteristic.  Now each of us has unique tone.  Pati si BB King, hindi magagaya ang tunog natin.

[oasgomez-is-banned]

We've all heard the old cliche"Tone is in your hands." Well, not really... The amplifiers you choose to play are going to be held to an entirely different standard --- the tone you hear in your head.  Quote from Victoria amplification...

[oasgomez-is-banned]

I love great guitar sounds.  Great guitar sounds inspire, elevate great performers and manufacturers to legendary status, and in some cases define the sound of a geographic region.  Whether its "Pearly Gates" or the "Woman Tone," just thinking about it makes you want to pick up your guitar and play.  The guitar feels so much more vital when the tone is great.  It responds to your every nuance, inspiring you to play things you've never played before." -- Joe Bonamassa

Now you guys who keep on insisting that tone is ONLY JUST in the hands either dont have inspirational sounding gear, or are just denying they have had an inspirational moment with one piece of equipment in their lives or are just plain deaf.

[abyssinianson]

Hmm...I wonder about the definition of "inspirational gear" - would it still qualify as a subcategory of the 'ol "$2,000 cutoff?" I disagree that BB was limiting his inference of gear to ONLY ES type guitars or comparable guitars. I mean from the approach and tone of the statement, he does say that his soul transcends whatever gear types because - in the end - the man does sound the way he does through anything.

Heck, if you gave me a blind fold test and had me listen to BB versus Buddy Guy with both of them on Strats, I would be able to tell you which is which - cold. Moreover, even if you listen to old, old chess records...Buddy Guy still sounds like Buddy guy regardless of the guitars and amps he has played through over the years. Ditto for BB King.

[Santo Muerte]

If you have great tone then it inspires you to play better but if you sound like [gooey brown stuff] then guess what that will do to your playing. One compliments the other. Even if you're a skilled guitarist you won't be able to show your flash if your tone sounds like garbage, & even the greatest sounding tone in the world won't save you if you're a crappy player.

[sonnyrayvaughn]

di pa rin ba tapos to???

[oasgomez-is-banned]

So, if BB King and Buddy Guy can sound like themselves on anything, how come they dont use a Classical Flamenco a majority of the time?  

If you use records as basis, I am entirely on a different wavelength and I apologize.  There is so much that goes into a recording process which you are more aware and proficient than I but by the very fact that you have four different tube amps is a testimony that you yourself believe that each amp in some way brings a different sonic texture that your hands cannot deliver on its own.

[alquin]

ahhh basta.. kung ok ung 2nog mo sa gear mo ok n un.. pero kung di kanaman nag gi-GIG at sarili mo lng ang nakakarinig sayo.. how will you say that  you have a great tone.. pano mo makukumpara ang sarili mo or ang iba kung di naririnig din ng iba... you can buy this you can buy that.. pero "may nakikinig ba sayo?" "pinaparinig mo ba sa kanila?" pano mo masasabi na ung mahal ay mas maganda kung sarili mo lang ang huhusga? .. for me I have a few collection noon.. an old dean ML , a 40th aniv strat, a takamine and a cheap epiphone explorer  etc.. and hulaan nyo kung ano ang itinira ko..
Iknow its not as expensive as PRS or Gibsons....


among those expensive stuff, I choose the epi explorer coz, many people say i sound better on that and comporatable ako..

so you can have all the expensive stuff, but if no one listen to you, or you dnt have the guts to play in front of many diff. people, it may mean that you dnt know what ur talking about..


heheh.. di ko naintindihan sinabi ko at all... gessssssshhhhhhhhhhh

[abyssinianson]

So, if BB King and Buddy Guy can sound like themselves on anything, how come they dont use a Classical Flamenco a majority of the time?  

If you use records as basis, I am entirely on a different wavelength and I apologize.  There is so much that goes into a recording process which you are more aware and proficient than I but by the very fact that you have four different tube amps is a testimony that you yourself believe that each amp in some way brings a different sonic texture that your hands cannot deliver on its own.

pareng SRV hindi ito matapos until the following facts are understood by oas:

A) the reason why Buddy Guy and BB King don't use flamenco classicals is because a classical is not an electrically amplified guitar - maybe in your mind it is - but last time I checked, both guys played electrics. moreover, comparing a classical guitar to an electric AND fully expecting a serious answer in this conversational context is... is, well, wow....

B)whether both guys play on a record or play to me while they're taking a dump using small Fender Champs, the point is, they have a style to their playing that is characteristic of how they express their playing physically, emotionally and stylistically. Without that style, without THEIR signature mark as expressed through their technique, BB King and Buddy Guy will never sound like who they are. Their signature techniques - the trills, the bends, the phrasing - all of that transcends whatever gear they are using and that is something any guitar can tell you without hesitation. Although the gear oriented tone is there to amplify their tone and color it, the fundamental sound of the person is still there, whether you are listening to BB King OR Buddy Guy.

No amount of gear - expensive OR cheap - will ever replace how YOU sound through equipment. Afterall, its the player that plays the instrument, not the other way around.

[skunkyfunk]

Fingers bring CHARACTER
Equipment brings TIMBRE.

Your fingers alone cannot create timbre.  Your guitar, amps and effects do.  But then when all is combined, we get different sounds from from one person to another.

[skunkyfunk]

di pa rin ba tapos to???

I'm afraid that it won't.  And it doesn't only happen here.

[abyssinianson]

Fingers bring CHARACTER
Equipment brings TIMBRE.

Your fingers alone cannot create timbre.  Your guitar, amps and effects do.  But then when all is combined, we get different sounds from from one person to another.

well said. i think what is lacking, as far as a rigid definition of "tone" is that character is unique to a player's individuality - period - regardless of what you play through. the gear is simply there to dress how you project your musicianship.

the argument won't end and I don't know why. arguing individuality is such a simple matter. even if you dress a crappy musician in the best gear, he or she will still suck; that is their character, an inherent feature of their skill and technique. i don't know why it is such a hard point to see. sure, gear and skill counts toward musicianship but, seriously speaking, if there isn't any skill and style to play with, what difference does the gear tone matter?

[titser_marco]

Hmmm... my take on tone...

On a psychological level, when you play on someone else's gear, your mind tries to get the sound YOU want out of their gear... adjusting how you pick, where you pick...etc...etc... until what you hear, is as close to your 'tone' as you can get with the given rig... hence the reason for why your tone seems to follow you around.

Hmmm, this is actually an overlooked point. Nice take on the topic, jplacson. Made me think about this whole tone issue all over again.

[glassjaw_jc]

On a psychological level, when you play on someone else's gear, your mind tries to get the sound YOU want out of their gear... adjusting how you pick, where you pick...etc...etc... until what you hear, is as close to your 'tone' as you can get with the given rig... hence the reason for why your tone seems to follow you around.

exactly!

[Al_Librero]

so how do PhilMusic members define 'tone' anyway?

or can someone provide me a link if one has been spelled out already. thank you.

[tele-tubby]

di pa rin ba tapos to???

sorry i brought the thread back to life hihihihi

[jplacson]

thanks glassjaw, titser_marco.  it came about cuz my friend and I were discussing tone as well a while back.

my friend is left-handed but learned guitar on the regular 'right-handed' layout.  he was just thinking out loud on why a "right handed" guitar is fretted with the left hand, seeing as that does all the 'work'... so it should be a 'left handed' guitar... and current left-handed ones should be called right-handed ones since the right hand does all the work.

this discussion got me thinking and i initially agreed until i analyzed my own playing... and i realized that 80% of a person's "tone" or playing style (dynamics, expression, eq, etc) comes from the playing/pick hand... not the fret hand.

since you psychologically have more active control of your dominant hand (even ambis have a preferred hand) you can control subtleties in your playing better.  Slight changes in attack angle, muting pressure, picking location, etc... all being done subconsciously... all conforming to what your mind wants to hear.

tone is very personal.  i read an article somewhere that nuno and evh were at a rehearsal for a concert and evh asked nuno to play through his rig... still sounded like nuno... playing through an evh rig.... hahahaha

[namida]

On a psychological level, when you play on someone else's gear, your mind tries to get the sound YOU want out of their gear... adjusting how you pick, where you pick...etc...etc... until what you hear, is as close to your 'tone' as you can get with the given rig... hence the reason for why your tone seems to follow you around.

During a jam, a friend commented that  he still hears my tone while using a different guitar from the last time. I was rather unconscious of it until he mentioned it, I just tweaked the stuff to the sound that pleases me the most.

[deltaslim]

thanks glassjaw, titser_marco.  it came about cuz my friend and I were discussing tone as well a while back.

my friend is left-handed but learned guitar on the regular 'right-handed' layout.  he was just thinking out loud on why a "right handed" guitar is fretted with the left hand, seeing as that does all the 'work'... so it should be a 'left handed' guitar... and current left-handed ones should be called right-handed ones since the right hand does all the work.

this discussion got me thinking and i initially agreed until i analyzed my own playing... and i realized that 80% of a person's "tone" or playing style (dynamics, expression, eq, etc) comes from the playing/pick hand... not the fret hand.

since you psychologically have more active control of your dominant hand (even ambis have a preferred hand) you can control subtleties in your playing better.  Slight changes in attack angle, muting pressure, picking location, etc... all being done subconsciously... all conforming to what your mind wants to hear.

tone is very personal.  i read an article somewhere that nuno and evh were at a rehearsal for a concert and evh asked nuno to play through his rig... still sounded like nuno... playing through an evh rig.... hahahaha

great points you make here, jp. playing a lot w/ bare fingers myself, i can certainly can relate to your discovery.  would also add, though, that aside from our fingers (or right hand, in particular), tone is not just a function of physics but also metaphysics!

that's why when i say "tone is in the fingers", i also qualify it to say that "tone is in the person"... the person's mental concept of what a good tone is will dictate how he tweaks and plays whatever guitar, fx, or amp you hand to him.  give me a marshall amp and i will try to make it sound like a fender.  give me a tele and i will try to make it sound like a P90s goldtop.

[sonnyrayvaughn]

di pa rin ba tapos to???

sorry i brought the thread back to life hihihihi

ok lang..it makes life so much colorful