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Author Topic: a little more about wave phase  (Read 2481 times)

Offline nichteque

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a little more about wave phase
« on: November 14, 2006, 04:29:55 AM »
lagi kong nakikita ang term na phase at phase shifts, so nagresearch ako to find out what it is...medyo malabo parin sakin haha. i don't know what it actually does to the waveform and how it affects the sound. ano ang mag-iiba kapag nagshift ng phase? sorry, siguro napakaengot na katanungan nito...pero okay lang gusto ko talaga malaman. :) kung ayus lang sana, paki-explain in easier terms, kasi nung nagresearch ako, hala, bakit may nakita akong mga functions at formulas. haha.

oh and by the way, may gumagamit ba ng sytrus dito? baka may alam kayong site na makukuhaan ng presets...thanks mga chong at chief!

Offline starfugger

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Re: a little more about wave phase
« Reply #1 on: November 14, 2006, 07:35:17 AM »
it would help to study the physics of the wave and its angles.  that's what clarified the issue of phasing for me. 

as far as sound is concerned, phasing occurs when several sound sources reach one or more destinations (mic/s) at different times.  or when two or more sound sources reach a single mic at different times.  it is common for phasing to crop up when one is using several mics placed at different positions from the sound source.  the cause of delay would be the different distances of the mics from the sound source. if you plot the waveform coming inside mic A and B in a common timeline you will see that the waveform coming from the mic closer to the sound source begins earlier than the other waveform. and because a wave travels in cycles, meaning it has a negative and positive value, combining these negative and positive values of the two waveforms will cause cancellation at some points, and an increase in amplitude in others.  what does phasing sound like?  i suppose the most common and practical way to know is to use a conservatively tweaked flanger or phaser on a sound source.  you will notice that phased-out sounds thin out and then normalize in regular intervals.  hope this helps.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2006, 10:57:12 AM by starfugger »
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Offline nichteque

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Re: a little more about wave phase
« Reply #2 on: November 14, 2006, 02:58:11 PM »
ahh so you need two waveforms for this to happen? parehas lang ba sila ng concept ng pag-apply ng LFO sa isang sound? hehe..sige i'll start reading on waves. mukang kailangan talaga daanan yun. :) thanks sir.

Offline starfugger

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Re: a little more about wave phase
« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2006, 03:03:59 PM »
female here.  you're welcome.  im not very familiar with oscillators but i think that there is a similarity in effect.  yes phasing occurs only with 2 or more signals.  but even a single human voice going into a single microphone can still phase out when the same sound bounces on nearby surfaces and the reflected sound inteferes with the direct sound going into the microphone. 
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Offline Direk

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Re: a little more about wave phase....From My Perspective
« Reply #4 on: November 15, 2006, 01:09:07 AM »
lagi kong nakikita ang term na phase at phase shifts, so nagresearch ako to find out what it is...medyo malabo parin sakin haha. i don't know what it actually does to the waveform and how it affects the sound. ano ang mag-iiba kapag nagshift ng phase? sorry, siguro napakaengot na katanungan nito...pero okay lang gusto ko talaga malaman. :) kung ayus lang sana, paki-explain in easier terms, kasi nung nagresearch ako, hala, bakit may nakita akong mga functions at formulas. haha.




    The beginning--- Sound and Hearing.

        What is sound? Sound is a series of physical disturbances in a medium such as air. When an object vibrates, it sends out a series of waves that propagated through the air. Selecting a loudspeaker as an example; when the loudspeaker cones moves forward, it  compresses the air in front of it, creating an area in which the air molecules are denser than normal atmospheric pressure (the normal pressure of the air at sea level; 14.7 pounds per square inch). This portion of the sound wave is called COMPRESSION.
        When the loudspeaker cones moves backward, it creates an area in front of it in which the air molecules are less dense than atmospheric pressure. This portion of the sound waves is called RAREFACTION. Sound is made up of a series of alternating compressions and rarefactions moving through the air.
        When these compressions and rarefactions strike our eardrum, we perceive the phenomenon as SOUND. The greater the change in air pressure above and below the atmospheric pressure, the greater the AMPLITUDE of the sound.
        Because most objects vibrate with a periodic back-and-forth motion, or OSCILLATION, most sound waves (nearly all musical sounds) have a periodic repetition.
        Using our loudspeaker again as example-- the repetitive compression and rarefaction motion results to pressure change called SINEWAVE ( imagine a letter S na nakahiga), the most basic periodic repetition. 
        Defining PERIOD, FREQUENCY and WAVELENGTH. The time it takes to complete one cycle of a sinewave is called its PERIOD. The FREQUENCY of a sinewave is the number of periods per second. A sound's frequency largely determines the sound's PITCH, our subjective impressions of frequency. If a wave's period is the TIME it takes to complete one cycle, a wave's WAVELENGHT is the DISTANCE between successive cycles.

        Nasan na yung PHASE & PHASE SHIFT mo ?

        The term phase describe tha fraction of a PERIOD that has elapsed in a SINEWAVE. Phase is expressed in degrees, with one cycle of a sinewave represented by 360 degrees. Although phase can be measured from any arbitrary point along the sinewave, 0 degrees is usually where the wave begins its positive going crossing.
        The term PHASE SHIFT describes a time displacement of the sinewave relative to a fix point. For example, if the sinewave were delayed by half its period, we would say it experienced a 180 degrees phase shift (because one cycle is 360 degrees, half a period is 180 degrees).
        Phase can also be describe the time relationship between two or more sinewaves. If one wave is delayed by half a period in relation to a second wave, we say the second wave lags the first wave by 180 degrees. If one wave is delayed by one whole period (360 degrees) in relation to another wave, it as though the phase shift never occured---the wave returned to its original phase relationship with the first wave.
       Phase shift has an important consequences when waves are combined. If two waves of equal frequency and the same phase are superimposed, their combination will create a wave of greater amplitude. Specifically, two waves of equal amplitude, equal frequency, and the same phase will yield an increase of 6 decibels (dB) when combined. These waves are said to REINFORCE each other. If, however, one of this waves is PHASE-SHIFTED by 180 degrees, the two waves will CANCEL each other and produce no signal. When one wave is at peak positive, the wave shifted by 180 degrees is at peak negative, producing the cancellation.   
        In layman's term, this exactly what happens in a system if ONE loudspeaker is connected with the loudspeaker cables REVERSED ( the red amplifier terminal is connected to the loudspeaker's black terminal, and the black amplifier terminal is connected to the loudspeaker's red terminal). For XLR terminations cable user, go figure! Reversing the leads to one loudspeaker "flips" the signal over, making positive into negative and negative into positive. This is similar to a phase shift of 180 degrees. Now, when one woofer cone pushes forward to create a compression, the second loudspeaker's woofer pulls back to make a rarefaction. When the compressions and rarefactions are combined, they cancel; the compressions from one loudspeaker "fills in" from the second loudspeaker, and less sound is heard. Because the two waves don't perfectly coincide. they don't completely cancel, but they do greatly reduce the acoustic output in the bass. If these two signal were combined electrically, however, complete cancellation would occur. Note that if you reverse the red and black leads on BOTH loudspeakers, there is NO phase shift between the left and right signals, thus no cancellation occurs. Can i have my dinner now?     



Direk
       
« Last Edit: November 15, 2006, 01:11:24 AM by Direk »


Offline KitC

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Re: a little more about wave phase
« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2006, 01:27:02 AM »
Direk,

Now let's turn the question around, How does this relate to phaser pedals and effects commonly found in music? For example, Steeley Dan's EP signature sound is a Rhodes passed thru a phaser. At what point does phasing sound like flanging or comb filtering?
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Offline starfugger

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Re: a little more about wave phase
« Reply #6 on: November 15, 2006, 12:40:44 PM »
that was pretty nice direk, quite technical though but well appreciated :) KitC i wouldn't know the inner workings of a flanger/phaser box, but in the olden times (haha) flanging is actually done by putting one's finger on top of the tape "flange" of the second identical recording, causing the second recording to be  slightly delayed , and then combining this with the original recording ... how much time delay does it take to make phase shifting very obvious? hmmm, algebra!  :mrgreen:

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Offline KitC

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Re: a little more about wave phase
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2006, 01:01:25 PM »
KitC i wouldn't know the inner workings of a flanger/phaser box, but in the olden times (haha) flanging is actually done by putting one's finger on top of the tape "flange" of the second identical recording, causing the second recording to be  slightly delayed

Yes, I know... I was just widening the topic a bit.  :wink:

Well, this SoS Article explains in detail the difference between phasing and flanging. Here's an excerpt:

"With the phaser effect, the signal passes through all-pass filters which have a non-linear frequency phase response. This results in phase differences in the output signal that depend on the input signal frequency — for example, the phase of a low frequency might be shifted by one quarter of a wavelength, whilst a higher frequency will be phase-shifted by a different amount. In other words, various frequencies in the original signal are delayed by different amounts, causing peaks and troughs in the output signal which are not necessarily harmonically related.

Flanging, on the other hand, uses a delay applied equally to the entire signal which is similar in principle to phasing except that the delay (and hence phase shift) is uniform across the entire sound. The result is a comb filter with peaks and troughs that are in a linear harmonic series."


You can say that flanging has a more pronounced effect because it is applied more uniformly whereas phasing can be more subtle depending on the source sound. To my ears, though, they sometimes sound similar.
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Offline starfugger

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Re: a little more about wave phase
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2006, 01:21:28 PM »
nice one KitC ... i had to read that twice, lol.  seriously though, the physics of the wave is such an interesting topic, especially phasing because it can be visually, sonically, and mathematically represented :)  i wish forums had a "draw" function, i am so compelled to draw waveforms all over the place ... :-D
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Offline Blueberri

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Re: a little more about wave phase
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2006, 01:57:09 PM »
OT:

Quote
Steeley Dan's EP signature sound is a Rhodes passed thru a phaser. At what point does phasing sound like flanging or comb filtering?

yun pala yung stomp box na nakapatong sa keyboards nya...i saw it in one of the live videos sa youtube...

Offline nichteque

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Re: a little more about wave phase
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2006, 02:19:55 PM »
female here.  you're welcome.

i didn't notice the avatar pic. sorry ma'am! :) ako man, pinaupo ako sa mrt once because that guy thought i was a chick. hindi maipinta ang muka niya nung nakita niya na hindi pala. haha.

anyway, whew! thanks to all of you for the info! once again nadagdagan nanaman ang kaalaman ko, at magagamit ko ito sa iba pang musical adventures ko. sana nga may parang doodle yung forums ika nga ni starfugger para pwedeng mas maging clear pa ang ibang bagay. pero naliwanagan na talaga ako sa phase at phase shifts. actually i've read about it as being the current postion in a wave's cycle, but i really had no idea what that meant! then you guys came and saved the day. thanks everyone. :)

Offline Direk

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Re: a little more about wave phase
« Reply #11 on: November 16, 2006, 01:29:00 AM »
Direk,

Now let's turn the question around, How does this relate to phaser pedals and effects commonly found in music? For example, Steeley Dan's EP signature sound is a Rhodes passed thru a phaser. At what point does phasing sound like flanging or comb filtering?

KitC,

At what point does phasing sounds like flanging or comb filltering?
Categorically, phasing and flanging falls on as effects and the comb filtering, for me, an-- after effect. For all of these effects, three things must happen: first, there must be a delay, second, it must be recombined with the original signal, and third, the delay time must vary. Consequently, recombining a sound and its delay, we get the famous comb filtering, which really changes the frequency response (and timbre) of the sound. In the case of flanging and phasing, we have a special effect (the whooshing sound) where the frequency of the comb filter is swept up and down by varying the delay time.


Direk


*thanks there starfugger
« Last Edit: November 16, 2006, 03:38:16 AM by Direk »