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The Musician Forums => Guitar Central => Topic started by: Al Nico Five on June 10, 2012, 02:51:31 AM
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debunked by Scott Grove:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEAjPaxpVOw&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEAjPaxpVOw&feature=plcp)
:-D
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Interesting video hehe.. Para sakin it's the sum of all the parts..
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interesting..hmmm.. :|
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(http://cclonline.org/bloglcsw/uploaded_images/iStock_can-of-worms-749944.jpg)
You get the picture. hehehe!
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Meh.
Wait. Did he pronounce the word "basswood" correctly? As in 'bas-wud' and not 'beys-wud'?
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Meh.
Wait. Did he pronounce the word "basswood" correctly? As in 'bas-wud' and not 'beys-wud'?
Yep, that's how you pronounce it.
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Yep, that's how you pronounce it.
All the while I thought it was the latter.
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Yep, that's how you pronounce it.
Poh-tay-toh, poh-tah-toh...
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my whole life is a lie...
oh ...
hehehe
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Poh-tay-toh, poh-tah-toh...
It is doubly-so in this case :)
"Basswood" is a corruption of "bast-wood"
Bast (rhymes with "fast") was the term for the nipa-like material used in making ancient European
footwear, and other implements like baskets: one school of thought holds that the word "basket"
has its root in "bast-ket" (where "ket" refers to a container, and is the root for "kettle").
Bast was obtained by splitting the bark of the Linden tree (Tilia americana), which same tree
thus came to also be known as the "bast-wood tree", ahortened and corrupted into "basswood"
(in which "bass" rhymes with "pass").
A bast shoe:
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-XlahfavNUI8/T6asFKFmqnI/AAAAAAAAQmA/0ARsZ1SRDGc/s1600/bast+shoe.jpg)
Hey, it's been a long day.
:-P
I'd agree that too much importance has been accorded to the wood used in electric guitars.
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The electronics plays the biggest part on how the electric guitar sounds. I would disagree with him if he says zero.
To test just get 2 different same sized plank of wood let's say narra (hard and solid) and maple (softer). Hit both of them with the same hammer and you'll hear 2 different wood sounds.
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just get 2 different same sized plank of wood let's say narra (hard and solid) and maple (softer). Hit both of them with the same hammer and you'll hear 2 different wood sounds.
His point was that the difference you are describing almost-entirely
doesn't get picked-up (sorry) by pick-ups.
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
sorry, who's scott grove apart from someone who lives in her mom's basement?
it hurts to listen to the argument.. grade school science. :roll:
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Interesting topic. I've been thinking about this for a while because my experience is that the trem in my floyded guitars and the pickups are the main source of tone. Better trem assembly = better tone. This became more evident when I put brass block on one of my guitars with a cheap Floyd Rose Special, the tone really improved, big time. I guess this also explains why Steve Vai's plastic guitar sounds almost the same as his other guitars - live.
On the other hand, what this is not able to explain is why older guitars resonate more if the wood has nothing to do with it. Maybe because older wood helps the guitar hardware resonate? I don't know. Definitely my 15-20 yrs. guitars sound louder, except my floyded old strat - it still sound a bit dull despite it being 15 yrs old.
It would be interesting to hear what others' experience are on this topic.
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:lol: :lol: :lol:
sorry, who's scott grove apart from someone who lives in her mom's basement?
it hurts to listen to the argument.. grade school science. :roll:
Eto kung sino sya according to wiki answers (na sa tingin ko sya din yung author ng article):
"Scott Grove is an American Country-Rock Musician. He's toured all of The states and Canada as a musician and has learned lots of stuff from what hes surpassed from touring. Now, he's currently living In Nevada and is a High quality Instructor teaching Guitar, Dobro, Mandolin, And slide guitar. He Is a
Major Fan of Kiss and makes one of the craziest ideas for guitars. He currently has his guitars done From Anderson Custom Guitars and Basses. He is also a Guitar collector who has the most rare of the rare guitars and blows his money on all of them and he doesn't even care. He's toured for 25 years and places his instructional videos and His current instrument Reviews on YouTube. His Name is GroovyDjs..."
Tapos may discussion:
(2) On May 17, 2012 at 7:36 pm Jonathan Grove
Very true, he talks and talks about how woods have no effect on tone but that's completely wrong. Tries to tell you that a les paul has no sustaining qualities over a steinberger guitar which is absolute bull. It's been shown that mass, grain quality and string tension has a huge impact on sustain.
(1) On October 4, 2011 at 1:55 pm Miroslavni
Unfortunately Scott Grove is also rude person, manipulator and lier. When he doesn't like one's opinion, he gets rude and manipulative. My one sad experience.
So I guess partly this answers the question.
Matagal ko na sya nakikita sa youtube. Pero kasi bat nya ginawa yung video bago sya matulog?? :lol: :lol: nakaka wala tuloy ng credibility, haha. Pero in fairness, madami sya gitara, gwapo siguro! :lol: :lol:
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what this is not able to explain is why older guitars resonate more if the wood has nothing to do with it. Maybe because older wood helps the guitar hardware resonate? I don't know. Definitely my 15-20 yrs. guitars sound louder, except my floyded old strat - it still sound a bit dull despite it being 15 yrs old.
It would be interesting to hear what others' experience are on this topic.
Agree, because wood resonates but pickups/electronics and saddles/nut still play just as an important role
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His point was that the difference you are describing almost-entirely
doesn't get picked-up (sorry) by pick-ups.
IKR, that's why I said I don't agree with him when he said zero. The pick ups play the biggest factor in the equation.
But again I would not judge the guitars wood by playing it unplugged. Playing the guitar unplugged is testing the guitars craftmanship, fret layout, intonation, etc. It's not the basis for wood selection.
Wood like any other mass can absorb vibration. It's science, it's logic. He is wrong to say that wood is dead.
I could cite my previous hollowbody as an example. I would feel the sound resonate off the F holes. I'm sure other hollowbodied owners felt this too. That vibration is coming from your strings travelling to the bridge down to the wood. The wood absorbs it, the wood is not dead.
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On the other hand, what this is not able to explain is why older guitars resonate more if the wood has nothing to do with it. Maybe because older wood helps the guitar hardware resonate? I don't know. Definitely my 15-20 yrs. guitars sound louder, except my floyded old strat - it still sound a bit dull despite it being 15 yrs old.
My guess would be pick-up deterioration towards a partly-'microphonic' state.
Microphonic response means it will begin to receive those tonal ualities that
the naked ear can also appreciate, and which are DEFINITELY influenced by
the resonance of the wood of the body and neck.
Take 'microphonics' out, and all a pickup can perceive is magnetic disturbance,
mostly from string movement --which in turn is influenced vastly-more by the
strings' contact area with, and hardness/resonance of the nut and saddles,
than by the resonance of the body/neck/etc.
Scott makes the mistake of dismissing tonewood influence ENTIRELY, but IMO
he's not mistaken to dismiss it as insignificant, at least where the pickups are
acting like a pickup is supposed to.
JM2.
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I could cite my previous hollowbody as an example. I would feel the sound resonate off the F holes. I'm sure other hollowbodied owners felt this too. That vibration is coming from your strings travelling to the bridge down to the wood. The wood absorbs it, the wood is not dead.
The question isn't whether the wood influences the strings' vibration or not,
but whether different KINDS of wood impose sufficiently-distinct influences,
to the point of being able to say: this kind of wood is better than that
for this kind of 'tone', and so forth.
Many claims made wrt "electric tonewood" have insufficient basis, for lack of
sample size, and especially since, within even ONE species of timber, you will
find samples varying wildly in grain structure and density --as influenced by
the environment while the tree was in growth, by the environment when the
wood was being cured, and by the selection and the manner of processing
particular portions of said wood.
JM2.
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i guess it's the individual perceptions of different guitarists that matter, as some seem to be more sensitive to the effects of wood on solidbody guitars than others. some may perceive a night-and-day difference; others, not so much.
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The question isn't whether the wood influences the strings' vibration or not,
but whether different KINDS of wood impose sufficiently-distinct influences,
to the point of being able to say: this kind of wood is better than that
for this kind of 'tone', and so forth.
Many claims made wrt "electric tonewood" have insufficient basis, for lack of
sample size, and especially since, within even ONE species of timber, you will
find samples varying wildly in grain structure and density --as influenced by
the environment while the tree was in growth, by the environment when the
wood was being cured, and by the selection and the manner of processing
particular portions of said wood.
JM2.
Different kind of woods does influence the sound. But for the electric solid body it's barely audible since the pickups play the huge part of bringing out the sound. I'm just saying he is mistaken by saying "the wood is dead".
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How about if I have a Squier, MIM, MIA, Custom strat all with exactly the same dimensions, hardware, electronics and pickups? Will they all sound approximately the same? Or in this case, would the actual construction of the guitar make the difference?
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How about if I have a Squier, MIM, MIA, Custom strat all with exactly the same dimensions, hardware, electronics and pickups? Will they all sound approximately the same? Or in this case, would the actual construction of the guitar make the difference?
Wala nga palang pasok bukas. Sana pala nag-inuman na lang tayo. Masarap pag-usapan sa inuman yan. LOL! :lol:
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Wala nga palang pasok bukas. Sana pala nag-inuman na lang tayo. Masarap pag-usapan sa inuman yan. LOL! :lol:
kelangan lang ng may sasagot, haha. pwede din tayo mag experiment. :lol: :lol:
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How about if I have a Squier, MIM, MIA, Custom strat all with exactly the same dimensions, hardware, electronics and pickups? Will they all sound approximately the same? Or in this case, would the actual construction of the guitar make the difference?
nope..
kahit pareho pa silang custom shop - from specs to dimensions, hardware, electronics and pickups, and even if the wood was taken from the same cut/batch of the wood iba pa din sila kakalabasan..
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IKR, that's why I said I don't agree with him when he said zero. The pick ups play the biggest factor in the equation.
But again I would not judge the guitars wood by playing it unplugged. Playing the guitar unplugged is testing the guitars craftmanship, fret layout, intonation, etc. It's not the basis for wood selection.
Wood like any other mass can absorb vibration. It's science, it's logic. He is wrong to say that wood is dead.
I could cite my previous hollowbody as an example. I would feel the sound resonate off the F holes. I'm sure other hollowbodied owners felt this too. That vibration is coming from your strings travelling to the bridge down to the wood. The wood absorbs it, the wood is not dead.
mmm although I assume there would be a difference in the solid vs hollow etc; is that the responsibility of the wood though?
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mmm although I assume there would be a difference in the solid vs hollow etc; is that the responsibility of the wood though?
Err..
What was the question again?
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nope..
kahit pareho pa silang custom shop - from specs to dimensions, hardware, electronics and pickups, and even if the wood was taken from the same cut/batch of the wood iba pa din sila kakalabasan..
Yup, pero gano kalayo? Halata kaya yung difference in tone sa recording with a band, or pag live playing with a band, and naka mic yung amp, going to the house PA? I guess theoretical yung question, best way is if may demo or shootout.
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Plain plugged to the amp. Yes there is a difference. But if you use drive or effects it colors the sound. Again difference is BARELY AUDIBLE because of electronics. But you can feel the sound vibrate from the f-hole.
That video from youtube placing the guitar beside the wood wall only transfers the guitars vibration to the wall. Of course it will not show any difference in sound. He brought out a wrong example to prove his point.
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Plain plugged to the amp. Yes there is a difference. But if you use drive or effects it colors the sound. Again difference is BARELY AUDIBLE because of electronics. But you can feel the sound vibrate from the f-hole.
That video from youtube placing the guitar beside the wood wall only transfers the guitars vibration to the wall. Of course it will not show any difference in sound. He brought out a wrong example to prove his point.
I see, I guess his point is valid, wrong example :lol: maybe he is exaggerating. Anyway... I still do think that wood has a contribution to the overall resonance and enjoyability factor :) How big the contribution is debatable. Pickups though in my experience have a big part on the tone. SD Jazz neck sound very similar between my late RG7420 and Epi custom. Same with the SD'59 between my Epi Floyd and LP Standard. The Epi Floyd sounded dull, but I believe it's because of the cheap floyd rose special installed, which the replacement of a brass block significantly improved. These experiences makes me conclude Scott has a point, but maybe not entirely true.
At the end of the day, basta masaya ka sa tunog ng gitara, that is what matters. It's just good to have these conversations so we make a more informed decision in choosing guitars in the future.
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I also disagree with zero difference.
...so this guy mean to say that a lespaul and a strat can sound the same if they have the same pickups, same amp and distortion, same kind of saddles and nut material used?
even two strats with different wood type can/might sound different,
mas kapanipaniwala kung ittry nya with two different guitars with same pup, amp, effect, hardware material. And if they both sound the same, maniniwala nako :idea:
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i cant help but chime in.
the guy means well, we're in an iceman forum and saw some of mine(but the discussion ended when he wanted an exact ibanez headstock..)
but anyway he means well (he focuses on the technique), i guess the video was created because of how in any forum there is alot of discussion put in guitar finishes and he has been part of alot of the discussions..
he likes cool finishes and one thread was him showing his iceman and with a majority commenting on how thick the finish is and it probably wouldnt sustain because the wood cant 'breathe', that comment drove him nuts..because again a majority of his guitars have hot rod style finishes..
Wood Type, Finish, and Mass Matter on a Electric Guitar?
it matters only on what you're trying to do/achieve..
the problem i see on forums is too much generalization and using them as 'facts', wood and tone are nit picky subjects getting a 1:1 is crazy..
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+1 bryan. I saw that Iceman too, a year before I saw this video.
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Err..
What was the question again?
pwedeng dalawa pero po pero eto ang naka sulat sa thread title (it's also written on Scott Grove's youtube video): Does Wood Type, Finish, and Mass Matter on a Electric Guitar?
pero he answered:
I could cite my previous hollowbody as an example. I would feel the sound resonate off the F holes. I'm sure other hollowbodied owners felt this too. That vibration is coming from your strings travelling to the bridge down to the wood. The wood absorbs it, the wood is not dead.
sa sagot niya kasi parang eto ang bagay na tanong: Does Guitar Design (solid vs semi-hollow) Matter on a Electric Guitar?
:-D
Err..
What was the question again? :-D :-D :-D