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The Musician Forums => Guitar Central => Topic started by: firemodel55 on October 02, 2010, 08:33:41 PM
Title: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 02, 2010, 08:33:41 PM
Time and time again I have been challenged to place a custom order for a guitar. Time and time again, I have always found it risky -- more riskier than buying a guitar from a retail store. At least you can walk away from a piece of crap in store. For custom orders, you cannot walk from it that easily and I believe 90% of these guitars are bad sounding and without character -- no exceptions. Some people may justify custom order because of the need for specs or maybe because they cannot afford the real thing and are trying to save but that does not exempt them from getting a dud. Most of them will not admit it because of their ego or plainly because they cannot hear that its a bad sounding guitar. A lot of my friends abroad have advised me not to engage in custom order for my requirements and they would rather prefer to produce the guitar first and for them to test before recommending it to me.
Unfortunately, most of these guitar companies are filled to capacity and have no piece to spare for me to try and reject. On the other hand, retail store inventory is really sub par compared to those that are limited in production and usually unless you know the owner -- the good sounding pieces of a batch are kept in reserve at the back for their top customers. In addition, stores with online capability are afraid to stand by/recommend a guitar to me because of my high requirements. Some stores that are capable, just don't have the stocks or they feel that their current inventory will not meet my standards. I have also grown tired of trying out a hundred guitars in a day in stores such as Tom Lee and Swee Lee and disappoint the salesman that their precious stocks of Gibson Custom Shop, PRS and Fender Shop all suck. So am I tired of telling people that they have bad sounding guitars and looking at me as if I cannot afford what they are saying.
Well I have decided to take a risk on luthier that I will not name until the end of the build. The build time is one year, so I can only update this thread irregularly depending on the build status. I will also refrain from indicating the type/model of the guitar because I believe it will keep the build interesting. I am taking a risk on this luthier because I believe he is one of the best in the world. And more importantly, I want to show the STANDARDS that we should measure the Elegees, Jun Castros and Max Rufos of this world. The build is expensive so I am not expecting everybody to afford it but I feel that members of this forum should witness a truly world class building experience.
Take note that the task at hand for this luthier is to be aesthetically correct and build in the response and sound of one of the best sounding guitars in the world. As an analogy, its like designing and building a Miss Universe with intelligence.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 02, 2010, 09:03:16 PM
Believe it or not but this build starts with Maple Top Selection. I was amazed by the number of tops available for me to choose from. 34 at that with various choices from western maple, western maple exhibition grade, flamey eastern maple, 50 year old billet cut eastern maple, 50 year old plain eastern maple, old growth flamey eastern maple, eastern maple exhibition grade. I will not be able to show them all here but they are so beautiful and unique that I need your help to select from the ones that I pre-selected. I suddenly realized that none of the local luthiers can offer such flexibility in tops and more importantly, these tops were guaranteed to sound good. So here goes the unbiased labelling:
These are all premium tops not found in the county and will probably never even arrive here. Even abroad these tops are rare. Thank you for helping me select for my custom build.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 02, 2010, 09:05:07 PM
cool that you found a luthier that can read your mind...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 02, 2010, 09:11:16 PM
cool that you found a luthier that can read your mind...
Actually, its not about reading my mind, its about translating what he is hearing in his head about his experience... you'll find out later as the build progresses.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: superbuni123 on October 02, 2010, 09:29:34 PM
Actually, its not about reading my mind, its about translating what he is hearing in his head about his experience... you'll find out later as the build progresses.
Can't seem to follow this one. So is the luthier crafting you a guitar that is based on what HE is hearing in HIS head? And what HE is hearing is about HIS experience? Forgive me for my ignorance, but shouldn't a custom be based on YOUR preferences not HIS?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 02, 2010, 09:35:50 PM
Can't seem to follow this one. So is the luthier crafting you a guitar that is based on what HE is hearing in HIS head? And what HE is hearing is about HIS experience? Forgive me for my ignorance, but shouldn't a custom be based on YOUR preferences not HIS?
Not really. At least I get to choose the top and the finish and some other appointments. And the most important thing is that there are some similarities for what I want for a custom guitar but his breadth of experience completes the reality. So, in this case, its a custom order with the luthier's skill at the forefront. This is a new concept that I am trying to educate people one this forum. RECOGNIZE EXPERTS and GIVE THEM CONTROL OF THE MAJORITY OF THE SITUATION. These two principles are what I believe in to get a sounding custom guitar with character.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: spetsnaz1123 on October 02, 2010, 09:41:33 PM
Why not name the luthier? Is he under protective custody or something? :-D...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 02, 2010, 09:52:56 PM
Can't seem to follow this one. So is the luthier crafting you a guitar that is based on what HE is hearing in HIS head? And what HE is hearing is about HIS experience? Forgive me for my ignorance, but shouldn't a custom be based on YOUR preferences not HIS?
basically fm can only select the top(my god help you choose well), and the luthier builds it according to his experience(may god guide his hand and experience)..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 02, 2010, 09:53:42 PM
Take note that the task at hand for this luthier is to be aesthetically correct and build in the response and sound of one of the best sounding guitars in the world. As an analogy, its like designing and building a Miss Universe with intelligence.
:lol:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 02, 2010, 10:16:18 PM
billet 14 just speaks to me
Quote
Even abroad these tops are rare
as the saying no two pieces of wood are the same..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: siore on October 02, 2010, 10:38:53 PM
Bookmarked. Let's see how firemodel55 does it. :-) Do we get to hear it when it's built? I pick top Q or maybe C, based on ee-nee-mee-nee-mhye-nee-mo.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: marcus_gloom on October 02, 2010, 10:52:12 PM
I think this will be one long expensive build and a hot thread.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: qwi on October 02, 2010, 11:10:09 PM
wala akong napili sa 'pre-selected' tops. just shows again na iba ang taste ko :oops:
will be looking forward kung ano pipiliin ni sir.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firewaterjem on October 02, 2010, 11:42:36 PM
Not really. At least I get to choose the top and the finish and some other appointments. And the most important thing is that there are some similarities for what I want for a custom guitar but his breadth of experience completes the reality. So, in this case, its a custom order with the luthier's skill at the forefront. This is a new concept that I am trying to educate people one this forum. RECOGNIZE EXPERTS and GIVE THEM CONTROL OF THE MAJORITY OF THE SITUATION. These two principles are what I believe in to get a sounding custom guitar with character.
would you care to educate us more by sharing to us your exact specifications of your appointments?
how about sharing to us if the Luthier is local or not...
but just my guess would be.... he's not local...
my choice would be Top I... 2nd is Top C...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firewaterjem on October 02, 2010, 11:47:26 PM
I think this will be one long expensive build and a hot thread.
one year to be exact :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: arkeetar on October 03, 2010, 12:07:17 AM
paano bang malalaman kung super experienced ang isang luthier? seryosong tanong... close kayo? magkakilala since birth? hearsay? rumors?
lol :lol:
kagaya ng pagkakakilala ko kina jon elegee, maraming magagandang feedbacks, kaya sa kanya ako nagpupunta kuntento ako sa output at service na nagawa n'ya sa gitara ko. at merong 2nd time around...
pero kung 1st time magpapagawa? masasabi na bang... you the MAN! you're the BEST in the World! :-D sabay balik sa tanong:
Quote
paano bang malalaman kung super experienced ang isang luthier? seryosong tanong... close kayo? magkakilala since birth? hearsay? rumors?
:-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 03, 2010, 12:10:15 AM
paano bang malalaman kung super experienced ang isang luthier? seryosong tanong... close kayo? magkakilala since birth? hearsay? rumors?
lol :lol:
kagaya ng pagkakakilala ko kina jon elegee, maraming magagandang feedbacks, kaya sa kanya ako nagpupunta kuntento ako sa output at service na nagawa n'ya sa gitara ko. at merong 2nd time around...
pero kung 1st time magpapagawa? masasabi na bang... you the MAN! you're the BEST in the World! :-D sabay balik sa tanong:
:-D
opinion lang nya ark, or this builder could be Baker man himself..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: arkeetar on October 03, 2010, 12:10:37 AM
Take note that the task at hand for this luthier is to be aesthetically correct and build in the response and sound of one of the best sounding guitars in the world. As an analogy, its like designing and building a Miss Universe with intelligence.
but wait there's more! :lol:
hindi lahat ng feedbacks na nalaman ko sa isang luthier ay eh maganda, pero mas maraming positive comments kaya tiwala pa rin ako :lol:
paano bang malalaman kung super experienced ang isang luthier? seryosong tanong... close kayo? magkakilala since birth? hearsay? rumors?
lol :lol:
kagaya ng pagkakakilala ko kina jon elegee, maraming magagandang feedbacks, kaya sa kanya ako nagpupunta kuntento ako sa output at service na nagawa n'ya sa gitara ko. at merong 2nd time around...
pero kung 1st time magpapagawa? masasabi na bang... you the MAN! you're the BEST in the World! :-D sabay balik sa tanong:
:-D
Will try to answer it from my perspective:
But really it just boils down to -- God Given talent. Super Experience with Super Exposure is one important requirement. I don't think any local luthier has it here in Manila.
We are NOT close. In fact, I only started communicating with him a few weeks ago. Not hearsay or rumors and more positive comments are not enough. And you are right. Its the output that counts. I have seen pictures and tried Elegee's output and they are no match for this guy's output in terms of quality, craftsmanship and ability to get the sound right. But don't get me wrong. Elegee's price is much cheaper. I think one reason, I posted the tops is to show you the diversity in top selection and access to premium quality maple tops that this luthier has access to and WISDOM to select. Actually, they are all in his storage. Elegee does NOT have the quality and figure of these tops let alone the weight and sound for his billets. This luthier rejects 95% of all premium woods used for guitar. Elegee does not do that -- but then again, he is trying to make a custom guitar more affordable specially Mang Max. And for that, its cool.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on October 03, 2010, 05:22:14 AM
alex, is the builder able to document that his wood is in fact "old growth" wood? What's his definition of old growth wood as this term has ben used loosely somettimes?
How is he able to guarantee that it will sound good like you mentioned? From what I recall in previous threads, they are not able to predict if a guitar will sound good until the finish product is done, regardless of parts and build technique used right?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 05:27:05 AM
wala akong napili sa 'pre-selected' tops. just shows again na iba ang taste ko :oops:
will be looking forward kung ano pipiliin ni sir.
You might like Quilt Tops which I do. This luthier offered that option which meant that he was willing to source wood for me The only reason I decided to stick with his selection is that his top woods are aesthetically correct.
By the way according to my local luthier friend, the problem with quilt tops is that they do not have enough "action". And I have to agree. The tops shown here have action that only well chosen flame tops can deliver.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 05:31:27 AM
alex, is the builder able to document that his wood is in fact "old growth" wood? What's his definition of old growth wood as this term has ben used loosely somettimes?
How is he able to guarantee that it will sound good like you mentioned? From what I recall in previous threads, they are not able to predict if a guitar will sound good until the finish product is done, regardless of parts and build technique used right?
I am planning to ask for papers but if you are experienced in wood you can see in the picture that some of the tops are at least 60 years old. I cannot reveal yet which one because it might bias selection.
Again, I would like to point out that there is no guarantee that he will get it because it is the first time I am ordering from him. Even if he gets it the first time around, I need to have a 2nd guitar made to prove a certain level of consistency. That's why I have named this thread appropriately as biting the bullet because of the risk involved. I just got tired of traveling abroad to test 100 Custom Shop guitars and rejecting them not only because it looks silly trying to explain to the salesman why it doesn't sound good -- by the way the salespeople in New York are generally more tolerating and they don't take it against you. Salesmen in Asia -- Hong Kong, Singapore, Philippines -- generally do not understand. But more importantly, after trying over a hundred Gibson Custom Shops and Fender Custom Shops in a day with PRS Ten Tops all sounding dead -- you start to look at these brands as CRAP. Nakaka baba ng confidence and it just kills the excitement.
On the positive side, he seems to exhibit some indicators that he is capable of building MAGIC into guitars. And this is why I decided to do a custom order to try to experience a custom build which will lead to MAGIC.
In my initial correspondence with him, he seems to have an intensity and drive and passion for his work that none of the local luthiers have. He is clearly the expert in this specific field of guitar making.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Jejan on October 03, 2010, 05:47:17 AM
So the luthier's name is a secret. . . Oh well, goodluck to you.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 05:54:00 AM
So the luthier's name is a secret. . . Oh well, goodluck to you.
For now, I am keeping it a secret until the final product is finished because if I name the luthier there will be a bias for or against him.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on October 03, 2010, 05:55:08 AM
i think old growth wood isn't really as much about the "age" of the wood but where the wood was taken from... with the more important thing being that the wood came from the old primary growth forests... Hopefully yours is indeed OLD GROWTH wood and not just old wood ... old wood would be my grandfather, god rest his soul hehe :lol: Hopefully your luthier can provide good documentation on it as well. He should be able to do so ... the likes of D Johnson from what I know are able to provide documentation for theirs. I haven't personally seen it but that's what they say...
On the guarantee of good tone... I am with you on that it cannot be guaranteed. It is the sum of all parts as we know it right? I guess where I was coming from was from your initial post (post #2) where you mentioned that the wood is guaranteed to sound good --> "these tops were guaranteed to sound good"
Best of luck to you on your toneful quest
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 03, 2010, 05:57:19 AM
i'd be better if he does present any sort of documentation for the claimed woods, i couldnt justify with pictures alone that wood is OLD Growth wood..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: jimny on October 03, 2010, 06:00:04 AM
Quote
On the guarantee of good tone... I am with you on that it cannot be guaranteed. It is the sum of all parts as we know it right? I guess where I was coming from was from your initial post (post #2) where you mentioned that the wood is guaranteed to sound good --> "these tops were guaranteed to sound good"
+1
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 06:02:11 AM
i think old growth wood isn't really as much about the "age" of the wood but where the wood was taken from... with the more important thing being that the wood came from the old primary growth forests... Hopefully yours is indeed OLD GROWTH wood and not just old wood ... old wood would be my grandfather, god rest his soul hehe :lol: Hopefully your luthier can provide good documentation on it as well. He should be able to do so ... the likes of D Johnson from what I know are able to provide documentation for theirs. I haven't personally seen it but that's what they say...
On the guarantee of good tone... I am with you on that it cannot be guaranteed. It is the sum of all parts as we know it right? I guess where I was coming from was from your initial post (post #2) where you mentioned that the wood is guaranteed to sound good --> "these tops were guaranteed to sound good"
Best of luck to you on your toneful quest
Luthier only uses OLD GROWTH on all his wood. Remember, we are just at top selection. After top selection, I will ask for the papers for the maple top.
Yup it is the sum of ALL the parts as we know it but with the primary factor driven by the wood. So with skepticism but he has kept reassuring me that he understand how wood can be variable and that theres more bad sounding wood. Hindi ko lang siya masindak dahil mukhang alam niya because of his breadth of experience.
Thanks for the well wishing.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 03, 2010, 06:06:31 AM
On the guarantee of good tone... I am with you on that it cannot be guaranteed. It is the sum of all parts as we know it right? I guess where I was coming from was from your initial post (post #2) where you mentioned that the wood is guaranteed to sound good --> "these tops were guaranteed to sound good"
Best of luck to you on your toneful quest
i like the quickness of flippo, i do know those will guarantee to look so good
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bgarcia on October 03, 2010, 06:07:00 AM
I'm guessing the final product is burst replica.
I'd choose a top with combination of flat sawn and quartersawn grains. Definitely not choosing all quartersawn grains with perfect straight flames (e.g. Tops a & b).
Tops K to P are nice.
Good luck with the build.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 06:07:51 AM
i'd be better if he does present any sort of documentation for the claimed woods, i couldnt justify with pictures alone that wood is OLD Growth wood..
Yup but you ain't a luthier kaya you depend on documentation like me. Sometimes Bryan you have to learn to trust specially if you start spending upwards of US$3k. And a lot of these luthiers are not only well skiled and gifted but they are also honest. I think we doubt a lot as Filipinos because a lot of Filipino luthiers are dishonest. Mang Rudy was one of the dishonest luthiers I got to know and it has painfully colored the way I look at local luthiers. Parating alam natin na may naka tagong 'Whats in it for them' sa lahat ng transaction. I guess its one of the bad traits we have as Filipinos -- to be on our guard because maraming nan lolokong Pinoy.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 06:10:16 AM
Yup but you ain't a luthier kaya you depend on documentation like me. Sometimes Bryan you have to learn to trust specially if you start spending upwards of US$3k. And a lot of these luthiers are not only well skiled and gifted but they are also honest. I think we doubt a lot as Filipinos because a lot of Filipino luthiers are dishonest. Mang Rudy was one of the dishonest luthiers I got to know and it has painfully colored the way I look at local luthiers. Parating alam natin na may naka tagong 'Whats in it for them' sa lahat ng transaction. I guess its one of the bad traits we have as Filipinos -- to be on our guard because maraming nan lolokong Pinoy.
alex i do know what you mean, but i personally doubt anybody despite of race, color, nationality...i cant trust a 'secret unmentioned luthier' for the sake of my opinion..being level minded is not wrong when i dont know who the person is..i also screen products that are intended for the financial area for credit unions and these marketing [gooey brown stuff] come in every color,race,nationality,from every state...personal things aside. i have no experience with those local luzon luthiers and i have no plans yet of getting a custom without testing one especially at the price point they expect..although cheaper than most usa made guitars, i cant comment on something i havent tried from 'a' builder
that being said, i do hope you get what you want from this builder...i dont want to hear claims that he can beat any builder even being blind folded, if the ETA is 1 year it will be 1 year..if the price is 5K+..as we say here..it is what it is
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on October 03, 2010, 06:57:14 AM
alex i do know what you mean, but i personally doubt anybody despite of race, color, nationality...i cant trust a 'secret unmentioned luthier' for the sake of my opinion..being level minded is not wrong when i dont know who the person is..i also screen products that are intended for the financial area for credit unions and these marketing [gooey brown stuff] come in every color,race,nationality,from every state...personal things aside. i have no experience with those local luzon luthiers and i have no plans yet of getting a custom without testing one especially at the price point they expect..although cheaper than most usa made guitars, i cant comment on something i havent tried from 'a' builder
that being said, i do hope you get what you want from this builder...i dont want to hear claims that he can beat any builder even being blind folded, if the ETA is 1 year it will be 1 year..if the price is 5K+..as we say here..it is what it is
Just to clarify -- the builder did not claim to beat any builder even blind folded. I am just saying I BELIEVE that he is one of the best in the world.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 08:10:52 AM
and what does it has to do if its a flame top or quilted maple?
just needed some enlightenment...
thanks...
Well "action" is similar to those hologram cards which has this 3D effect at a certain angle. Flame is more known for this as compared to quilt. Quilt is so beautiful when done properly but tends to remain flat and 2D. After awhile, like any custom paint job -- nagiging nakakasaw tingnan. Since may action ang isang magandang flame top, its less nakakasawa in the long run.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: rockarolla on October 03, 2010, 08:26:34 AM
i'm pretty sure your trusted luthier plus your overall supervision can pull this project off. can't wait to see the first phase of the build. way to go bro 8-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 08:30:10 AM
i'm pretty sure your trusted luthier plus your overall supervision and can pull this project off. can't wait to see the first phase of the build. way to go bro 8-)
Thanks for the support.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pangalan on October 03, 2010, 08:32:31 AM
My kind of top is a perfect balance of flames and wood grain. Its really tricky choosing any favorites just by looking at photos because, as you know, flames look different under different lighting. But i'm digging F, K, N, O, R, S.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: magtataho7 on October 03, 2010, 09:08:01 AM
I'm stuck with the el cheapo brands like Samick, Boston, Fernando, etc. etc.
Some local luthier warned me na "Wag mong pakinggan yung mga gamit ng tone snobs live, baka magbago taste mo" and said that I should cut my Philmusic browsing so I might avoid those GAS-tos moments.
But damn, these high standards are so enticing. I believe that I have yet to gather experience (and cash) to fully judge and enjoy tones made by these custom guitars.
Hay, I really wish I could be in that spot where firemodel is. payaman muna para may pambili. Sir, baka pwedeng pumunta sa listening session niyan?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 09:14:20 AM
I'm stuck with the el cheapo brands like Samick, Boston, Fernando, etc. etc.
Some local luthier warned me na "Wag mong pakinggan yung mga gamit ng tone snobs live, baka magbago taste mo" and said that I should cut my Philmusic browsing so I might avoid those GAS-tos moments.
But damn, these high standards are so enticing. I believe that I have yet to gather experience (and cash) to fully judge and enjoy tones made by these custom guitars.
Hay, I really wish I could be in that spot where firemodel is. payaman muna para may pambili. Sir, baka pwedeng pumunta sa listening session niyan?
Sure. Its being planned this early. Plano nga namin magpa cater buong araw at sa open air rooftop plano gawin para ang mga 100 watt heads ko ay ma todo at magdala sa gitara na ito. By the way, for the money, ok sa akin ang samick in terms of craftsmanship -- much better than Max Rufo guitars. Iyon lang nga, walang customization options.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: djonathan on October 03, 2010, 09:22:14 AM
intresting
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: orangeogre on October 03, 2010, 09:54:01 AM
This is the guy from israel(?) who made a 59 replica right?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: magtataho7 on October 03, 2010, 10:24:06 AM
Sir firemodel, have you tried the Flaxwood brand? I've heard their manufacturing process "eliminates" the inherent inconsistencies of tone woods. Their designs are also similar to that of Baker. Maybe it would be worth it if you take a look--
http://www.flaxwood.com
If I had dough I'd have one of those.
Anyway, I hope the bullet will be bitten. hehe
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: EST2TELE on October 03, 2010, 10:49:53 AM
Q is my choice top. :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 11:04:08 AM
Sir firemodel, have you tried the Flaxwood brand? I've heard their manufacturing process "eliminates" the inherent inconsistencies of tone woods. Their designs are also similar to that of Baker. Maybe it would be worth it if you take a look--
http://www.flaxwood.com
If I had dough I'd have one of those.
Anyway, I hope the bullet will be bitten. hehe
Heard about those but haven't tried one. Unfortunately, at this point in time, he is NOT part of my friend's trusted Top 3 builders for Les Paul type guitars. I have a write up here in my Tonequest Report -- that some other forumite here thinks is unnecessary as if he had tried a flaxwood. I can try to scan for you and just send me your email address. If only I can find that specific issue in my pile....
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: boybangs on October 03, 2010, 11:16:32 AM
When your friend/s says "Jump", do you say "How High?"?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 11:24:48 AM
Yup specially since he is more credible than you...
This really is "biting the bullet". Taking a custom order based on others preferences. Custom aesthetics for you maybe.
OT: Having a lot of luthier friends doesn't make you much more credible, even with the blind man playing at the overpass in Cubao, who, a lot people here in PM would respect over you. Swirl!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: magtataho7 on October 03, 2010, 12:02:44 PM
This really is "biting the bullet". Taking a custom order based on others preferences. Custom aesthetics for you maybe.
OT: Having a lot of luthier friends doesn't make you much more credible, even with the blind man playing at the overpass in Cubao, who, a lot people here in PM would respect over you. Swirl!
Hay...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on October 03, 2010, 12:38:30 PM
My kind of top is a perfect balance of flames and wood grain. Its really tricky choosing any favorites just by looking at photos because, as you know, flames look different under different lighting. But i'm digging F, K, N, O, R, S.
you have my sentiments exactly ... i wouldn't be the best guy to ask as I am not such a fan for flame tops ... i much prefer close to plain tops with lots of grain, mineral streaks and wide small hints of flame here and there... but if I had to pick, I would be on F ... I think your baker has a nice classy top and finish
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: dudeofdude on October 03, 2010, 12:50:34 PM
i'm gonna watch this thread :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pualux on October 03, 2010, 02:05:25 PM
This really is "biting the bullet". Taking a custom order based on others preferences. Custom aesthetics for you maybe.
OT: Having a lot of luthier friends doesn't make you much more credible, even with the blind man playing at the overpass in Cubao, who, a lot people here in PM would respect over you. Swirl!
cut the guy some slack, wala naman siyang negative comments so far in this thread ah...babastosin mo pa.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 03, 2010, 02:22:12 PM
Just to clarify -- the builder did not claim to beat any builder even blind folded. I am just saying I BELIEVE that he is one of the best in the world.
its ok to believe..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: GuitarFox on October 03, 2010, 03:31:05 PM
@Pangalan, ya it looks like a Gil Yaron but only FM55 really knows.
Regardless of the identity of the luthier, I hope the final product will be something FM55 will be proud of.
Peace.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deewantoy_eleven on October 03, 2010, 04:03:51 PM
I'm excited on how it will fail. Joke. :lol:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: kawal on October 03, 2010, 04:15:56 PM
fm, is it safe to judge a wood by just viewing photos of what they look like? surely an even and consistent maple flame would put up a beautiful guitar, but shouldn't you check what the wood feels like? - how dense it is, the weight, the consistency of the grain, and other tonal qualities that you'd be able to confirm not by looking at the wood? ika nga, "dont judge the book(match) by what it looks like." :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Rmansh on October 03, 2010, 04:23:13 PM
les preeb :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: boybangs on October 03, 2010, 04:42:05 PM
By the way, for the money, ok sa akin ang samick in terms of craftsmanship -- much better than Max Rufo guitars. Iyon lang nga, walang customization options.
Credibility.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: shkc on October 03, 2010, 04:50:26 PM
Top "C" for me bro
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: kawal on October 03, 2010, 04:59:21 PM
btw, i'd choose A, C or Q - the grain is more parallel, consistent at mas magkakalapit. aesthetically, maganda rin yung flame nila. then again, mas maganda pa rin siguro kung hand-picked and hindi based sa photos ang pagpili. :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 05:22:56 PM
This really is "biting the bullet". Taking a custom order based on others preferences. Custom aesthetics for you maybe.
OT: Having a lot of luthier friends doesn't make you much more credible, even with the blind man playing at the overpass in Cubao, who, a lot people here in PM would respect over you. Swirl!
I think I made the point clear that the luthier is much more experienced than me and definitely much more knowledgeable and experienced than you. And his 'other preferences' is based on his experience and exposure that I believe you don't have. Again, this custom order is so different because I can only influence the aesthetic side and even at that not much given the target of the build. Now that you mention playing, are you better than the blind man playing at the Cubao overpass?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 05:30:16 PM
It might be a joke but its a real possibility that the luthier may not get the response that I want in a guitar. I am sure than he will get things aesthetics, dimension and authenticity and the sound and timbre. And I guess thats why I started this thread, to really simulate the apprehension -- a nerve racking one year wait -- and the joys of starting out on a custom build that has the best chance of getting the target guitar. So far in my early correspondence it has been a great experience working with the guy.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 05:50:22 PM
you have my sentiments exactly ... i wouldn't be the best guy to ask as I am not such a fan for flame tops ... i much prefer close to plain tops with lots of grain, mineral streaks and wide small hints of flame here and there... but if I had to pick, I would be on F ... I think your baker has a nice classy top and finish
Thanks. Just for you, I am attaching some of the other maple tops that were options but I did not find flamey enough. These are 60 year old Michigan Eastern Maple Cut in the 50s and ARE aunthentically close to the target guitar -- in short this batch has the recommended flame, grain, mineral streaks of the target guitar.
fm, is it safe to judge a wood by just viewing photos of what they look like? surely an even and consistent maple flame would put up a beautiful guitar, but shouldn't you check what the wood feels like? - how dense it is, the weight, the consistency of the grain, and other tonal qualities that you'd be able to confirm not by looking at the wood? ika nga, "dont judge the book(match) by what it looks like." :-)
Luthier already did all that before submitting the list including using his tap technique. Of course, after picking the maple top, I guess we will move on to selecting the other pieces of wood required for the guitar and eventually matching them with a tuning fork method which at this point I have no idea.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: william251082 on October 03, 2010, 06:29:59 PM
uy parang yung kesame namin yung mga kahoy hheheheheh :-D (joke)
Goodluck po sa new guitar sa niyo 8-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: magtataho7 on October 03, 2010, 06:41:31 PM
Luthier already did all that before submitting the list including using his tap technique. Of course, after picking the maple top, I guess we will move on to selecting the other pieces of wood required for the guitar and eventually matching them with a tuning fork method which at this point I have no idea.
I believe they can somehow "map" resonance on a wood blank, by a tuning fork or some other hi-tech method. I've seen videos of a sought-after Canadian violinmaker (damn, forgot his name) using a hammer and an oscilloscope. These resonances are mostly uneven, and luthiers match and cut through these (sometimes including the imperfections) to make some characteristics appear. Hell, some even include wood knots (part where branches grow), even rotting wood, like a Zachary http://www.zacharyguitars.com/
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 07:26:19 PM
any other details on the body? how about the neck and fingerboard material?
In time... the first step is to select the top and its already very difficult as it is because of the many choices. Thats the reason I posted them here to help decide on the top. Ganon ka galing ang luthier na ito na all kinds of flame maple top are covered. Wala lang nga na Quilt kasi hindi iyon standard sa target guitar. But he was willing to order stocks for me. But given the flame tops here, I don't miss quilt anymore. Truly high grade stuff that I don't see on high end Gibson and high end PRS. It only looks flat because it has not been painted yet but the 3D property of the flame is already apparent. Wala pa nga raw naphta treatment iyan para lumabas ang dimensionality ng mga tops. What makes this luthier's selection different from Gibson and PRS is the oragnic nature of his top selection. Usually the Gibson and PRS stuff look too straight and perfect that it does not look like wood -- its more like paint without much action kaya mas nakakasawa talaga tingnan. Somehow with the boards selected here it feels and looks natural and right.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: superbuni123 on October 03, 2010, 09:00:41 PM
I dunno if its just the lighting, but Top Q really looks amazing! Would be really nice to see that on a Les Paul. :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: magtataho7 on October 03, 2010, 09:04:17 PM
Top W - curved grain, wow Top 2 - just right...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 03, 2010, 09:20:28 PM
what i don't hear cannot sound good to me, till i hear it, moreover, a guitar that still doesn't exist.
so let's wait after a year, and hear this guitar.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 09:36:38 PM
what i don't hear cannot sound good to me, till i hear it, moreover, a guitar that still doesn't exist.
so let's wait after a year, and hear this guitar.
Agree with you... But its kinda fun doing this thing for a year. And if the luthier delivers on the sound, I promise you based on what I talked about with the Luthier it will knock your socks off.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 03, 2010, 09:59:25 PM
Agree with you... But its kinda fun doing this thing for a year. And if the luthier delivers on the sound, I promise you based on what I talked about with the Luthier it will knock your socks off.
i hope so, man, because its a long wait and its very expensive. by the way, are you expecting this to top your suhr or baker?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 03, 2010, 10:17:13 PM
i hope so, man, because its a long wait and its very expensive. by the way, are you expecting this to top your suhr or baker?
Don't know. Probably use the suhr and baker more because I am more comfortable with them body wise. Heh Heh.
My baker firemodel 55 today in its configuration is a bit far away from the typical firemodel. I voiced it to be more scooped because I am more into rock and metal than jazz. So, I am expecting this guitar to have a more pleasing midrange.
With regards to super strats, my suhr modern is IT. So I don't expect this new guitar to replace it for shred and technical playing.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: shift015 on October 03, 2010, 10:27:07 PM
Passion. pure unadulterated passion. hay.
you can try to put as much science into it as you can but in the end, considering what you're measuring it up against... man, that's a really amazing endeavor.
thank you for starting this thread. i'll be sure to watch it.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: fourth_cycle on October 03, 2010, 10:43:35 PM
buti nlang wala akong pera... :roll: :roll:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: galingnamanon on October 03, 2010, 10:55:58 PM
..hmmmmm..am looking for the top which has "the face of god!" hahaha..would make it easier to choose..haha :)
..man it's hard to select one..they are all beautiful in different ways (particularly the first set - the ones you rejected do seem a little dull to me too at that stage..although they could look great after painting and stuff..dunno)
..i guess to increase chances..use whatever scientific methods available to determine resonance..but if all are practically the same..go with the top that speaks to you nga..
..this is an awesome venture sir..hoping it turns out better than expected..i hope this guy can capture "mojo" :) hehe...well if anyone can..he probably could..hehe
simple reminder to all:
"Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up"
bato at gulong mga kapatid!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 03, 2010, 11:15:27 PM
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Saturn/Return on October 04, 2010, 12:12:13 AM
I've always drooled at Gil's LP builds. I'm truly amazed with his eye for detail even up to the smallest things, I really admire his passion towards building guitars. Congrats Alex and enjoy the journey of having a custom guitar :-) This will be very interesting and exciting to watch it unfold.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: sargento on October 04, 2010, 01:19:03 AM
parang similar nga dito > http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/194271-1959-les-paul-build.html (http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/194271-1959-les-paul-build.html) good luck on the build!!!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: jamming_papu on October 04, 2010, 01:30:03 AM
with the expectations, risks and the people who are following and will be following this one, this guitar will surely be one of a kind.
Top C, I, W are my pick. since i can only judge and pick according to what I see, me thinks it has the most consistent grains, age/rings info and will have a nice natural effect in the finish.
Best of luck to Fm55. Hope that the final product will deliver and proves some theories in guitar building that are worth doing and trying by actually making one... Love guitars. And again, bato at gulong mga kapatid. \m/
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Red_Strat on October 04, 2010, 01:34:59 AM
Definitely Tops C, K, and Q for me. :-)
Firemodel55, when your guitar is done, do you plan on going overseas to pick up the guitar yourself? Or are you going to have it shipped here? It's a bit irrelevant to the building process, I know, but I'm just curious.
Subscribing to this thread. :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pangalan on October 04, 2010, 06:05:38 AM
Have you decided on the top yet? With the amount of time and money involved... i REALLY do hope you get what you want. Just a quick question, how do you workout the payment? deposit then installments? or do you have to pay in full upfront? good luck!!!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 06:18:42 AM
Have you decided on the top yet? With the amount of time and money involved... i REALLY do hope you get what you want. Just a quick question, how do you workout the payment? deposit then installments? or do you have to pay in full upfront? good luck!!!
Actually, I decided to post the tops because I CANNOT decide. I am stuck on the first step. I see at least a dozen or tops that I want which means I should book for a dozen guitars? Heh heh. Ang arrangement with the luthier is 50% down and 50% upon completion.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 06:21:25 AM
..hmmmmm..am looking for the top which has "the face of god!" hahaha..would make it easier to choose..haha :)
..man it's hard to select one..they are all beautiful in different ways (particularly the first set - the ones you rejected do seem a little dull to me too at that stage..although they could look great after painting and stuff..dunno)
..i guess to increase chances..use whatever scientific methods available to determine resonance..but if all are practically the same..go with the top that speaks to you nga..
..this is an awesome venture sir..hoping it turns out better than expected..i hope this guy can capture "mojo" :) hehe...well if anyone can..he probably could..hehe
simple reminder to all:
"Never look down on anybody unless you're helping him up"
bato at gulong mga kapatid!
Thanks for the support. Hirap na Hirap talaga ako mamili ng top specially in trying to picture how beautiful each comes out after the paint stage pero bilib ako sa luthier dahil parang alam niya and sabi niya that the top is a personal choice that he does not want to decide for the client.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 06:23:17 AM
Firemodel55, when your guitar is done, do you plan on going overseas to pick up the guitar yourself? Or are you going to have it shipped here? It's a bit irrelevant to the building process, I know, but I'm just curious.
Subscribing to this thread. :-)
I really have not decided yet because I still have 362 more days to go. Heh Heh. So thats double your wait time for that special something you are waiting for. Sigh.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 06:25:49 AM
Good choice. This is the luthier's Exhibition Grade Western Maple top called Jaw Dropper and very expensive -- lets just say that its cost is one of your guitars.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 07:20:02 AM
Here is my short list of Tops - Top W, Top Q, Top K, Top L, Top C My second choice would be Top H, Top V
But there was one Top that I wanted to give a second chance to: Top J.
Take note that all these shots were of all of the same pair billets but arranged in different ways. But this last picture caught my eye. If I turned the board to right by 90 degrees, I felt that it had some potential.
I asked the luthier to do so and within 5 minutes he simulated the top with an outline:
And I said to myself, "WOW". A maple top with 3d figure with vertical grain and swirling knots on both sides of the board. Added to that, the figure seemed to connect from left to right without having to be symmetrical. Even the luthier was inspired and amazed. So I asked him to recommend a finish. Within another 5 minutes, his recommendation with some reference pics:
And I quote him: "For this top I'd recommend a classic faded cherry burst with just a little red left in there (see photos). Medium relic + this top will look scary real. If you can afford this flagship... it would be awesome (for me too...LOL)."
Nagulat ako sa recommendation niya dahil suwak at bagay sa top. Pati relic niya hindi BASTOS na relic an ginagawa ng iba dito.
As of now, this is my preference but I will be reviewing today your recommendations along with my initial choices.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on October 04, 2010, 08:12:53 AM
Alex,
I like the fat and wide flame ... the pics of the wood too show you that it indeed has movement and 3D charcteristics... that should be a good one ...
i PERSONALLY would go for a HELL YEAH DARKBURST finish with a top like that :D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: toybitz on October 04, 2010, 08:42:52 AM
I hope the guitar, will be satisfying.
I know a few people who has all the top and expensive components assembled on one guitar. One piece this, one piece that..caps are these expensive, PUs are boutique...hardware, etc..but in the end, lost.
Just 3 things on the output (looks and tone) after spending much time and money on it, in the end:
1. you will force yourself to love the guitar depite its ugly tone. 2. you become honest that it disappoints and you hang it on the wall for the looks. 3. You get blessed and the guitar turned out mighty (for your taste of course).
But whatever it is (praying for number 3), thank you for graciously giving us a ride in your customized guitar journey.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on October 04, 2010, 09:25:22 AM
I know a few people who has all the top and expensive components assembled on one guitar. One piece this, one piece that..caps are these expensive, PUs are boutique...hardware, etc..but in the end, lost.
Just 3 things on the output (looks and tone) after spending much time and money on it, in the end:
1. you will force yourself to love the guitar depite its ugly tone. 2. you become honest that it disappoints and you hang it on the wall for the looks. 3. You get blessed and the guitar turned out mighty (for your taste of course).
But whatever it is (praying for number 3), thank you for graciously giving us a ride in your customized guitar journey.
My friend ... blood and water flow from your mouth :D LOL
This guy speaks wisdom...
Alex, at the end of it all, it would great to rate the guitar versus your standards "objectively" (if that is even possible) versus the tone in your head :)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 09:27:44 AM
I know a few people who has all the top and expensive components assembled on one guitar. One piece this, one piece that..caps are these expensive, PUs are boutique...hardware, etc..but in the end, lost.
Just 3 things on the output (looks and tone) after spending much time and money on it, in the end:
1. you will force yourself to love the guitar depite its ugly tone. 2. you become honest that it disappoints and you hang it on the wall for the looks. 3. You get blessed and the guitar turned out mighty (for your taste of course).
But whatever it is (praying for number 3), thank you for graciously giving us a ride in your customized guitar journey.
Sana nga rin #3. For reasons#1&2, I was really afraid of the customization route. But one article from Tonequest really helped out. Entitled Coyote Hole, the message was about taking risks. Since their favorite guitar store close down and they could no longer test guitars in inventory. They started taking shopping on ebay. They found a good sounding Custom Shop Plain Top 58 that sounded killer. If you have time, you can passby Arie's place. That specific issue is with him now and you can read it. Thanks for the prayers.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 09:29:49 AM
My friend ... blood and water flow from your mouth :D LOL
This guy speaks wisdom...
Alex, at the end of it all, it would great to rate the guitar versus your standards "objectively" (if that is even possible) versus the tone in your head :)
Oh... its gonna be super high standards because I can sell the guitar to you if it does not meet the standards "objectively" -- first option to buy. Heh Heh. But probably, I will just send it to the U.S. to be sold.
So, I am kinda resigned to the fact that there is a possibility it may not sound good.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Rmansh on October 04, 2010, 10:07:48 AM
^You will definitely get a good guitar. Gil's a perfectionist. Best of all, the knowledge you will gain (and you will share with us ehem :-D) is priceless.
Good luck :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: GuitarFox on October 04, 2010, 10:08:11 AM
Oh... its gonna be super high standards because I can sell the guitar to you if it does not meet the standards "objectively" -- first option to buy. Heh Heh. But probably, I will just send it to the U.S. to be sold.
So, I am kinda resigned to the fact that there is a possibility it may not sound good.
I envy you FM55. Many months ago, I asked Vhunter (Miks) about a builder named Gil Yaron. After very little :-) discussion, I decided not to have one made not because he wasn't good (I think he is one of the better replica builders out there or else Cliff/DAG wouldn't invite him in his stable), but I really didn't want to take a chance on a product that is still to be built. I suppose I prefer to acquire a guitar already made so you can try it first. Kudos for being brave, dude. Let's hope that you may be happy with the result.
Peace.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: toybitz on October 04, 2010, 10:40:45 AM
I envy you FM55. Many months ago, I asked Vhunter (Miks) about a builder named Gil Yaron. After very little :-) discussion, I decided not to have one made not because he wasn't good (I think he is one of the better replica builders out there or else Cliff/DAG wouldn't invite him in his stable), but I really didn't want to take a chance on a product that is still to be built. I suppose I prefer to acquire a guitar already made so you can try it first. Kudos for being brave, dude. Let's hope that you may be happy with the result.
Peace.
Thanks for the support. More importantly, thanks for the empathy in understanding the apprehensions that I have.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 04, 2010, 11:26:51 AM
If a production guitar could sound really good, this custom could sound killer especially that it’s made from choice woods plus its given real good attention. So I hope it turns out good.
If this builder is in your top 3 luthiers, and you still wouldn’t name the builder, can you name the other two now? Just curious.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 04, 2010, 11:29:01 AM
Oh... its gonna be super high standards because I can sell the guitar to you if it does not meet the standards "objectively" -- first option to buy. Heh Heh. But probably, I will just send it to the U.S. to be sold.
So, I am kinda resigned to the fact that there is a possibility it may not sound good.
aw, just enjoy the ride for now..if it doesnt meet the your standards..just turn it into..'my experience with Gil Yaron'..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 11:35:54 AM
If a production guitar could sound really good, this custom could sound killer especially that it’s made from choice woods plus its given real good attention. So I hope it turns out good.
If this builder is in your top 3 luthiers, and you still wouldn’t name the builder, can you name the other two now? Just curious.
Ok... On Cliff's Top 3 List for Solid Body Les Paul Type builders as of recent, they are Gil Yaron, Gustavsson and Nick Huber. When Gil came up on that list, I decided to skip the other two because they are not replicas and for the money, it seems that Gil is doing more.
For Cliffs Top 1 List for Tele style guitars -- Gil Yaron. The way that Cliff described the Tele is like no one else is even close enough to Gil's Teles in terms of sound. Even GVCG believes that Gil's Tele's sound so good. In terms of reliced Teles, its still GVCG for Cliff.
So there, I let the cat out of the bag and probably disappointed some people.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: albumin on October 04, 2010, 11:40:28 AM
nice thread sir. sana madocument yung mga pictures during the building process at maipost dito. :)
aantayin ko na lang yung gitara bago magbigay ng comment. goodluck sa gitara sir. hope guitar will turn out to meet the FM55 expectations. :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 04, 2010, 11:42:18 AM
Ok... On Cliff's Top 3 List for Solid Body Les Paul Type builders as of recent, they are Gil Yaron, Gustavsson and Nick Huber. When Gil came up on that list, I decided to skip the other two because they are not replicas and for the money, it seems that Gil is doing more.
For Cliffs Top 1 List for Tele style guitars -- Gil Yaron. The way that Cliff described the Tele is like no one else is even close enough to Gil's Teles in terms of sound. Even GVCG believes that Gil's Tele's sound so good. In terms of reliced Teles, its still GVCG for Cliff.
So there, I let the cat out of the bag and probably disappointed some people.
so its GIL!! in my mind i thought its Gustavsson.
may i ask why no baker? aint it LP style?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: sirtravis on October 04, 2010, 11:47:49 AM
tough choice but i'd go for Top D and M.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 12:05:36 PM
Take note that all these shots were of all of the same pair billets but arranged in different ways. But this last picture caught my eye. If I turned the board to right by 90 degrees, I felt that it had some potential.
I asked the luthier to do so and within 5 minutes he simulated the top with an outline:
And I said to myself, "WOW". A maple top with 3d figure with vertical grain and swirling knots on both sides of the board. Added to that, the figure seemed to connect from left to right without having to be symmetrical. Even the luthier was inspired and amazed. So I asked him to recommend a finish. Within another 5 minutes, his recommendation with some reference pics:
And I quote him: "For this top I'd recommend a classic faded cherry burst with just a little red left in there (see photos). Medium relic + this top will look scary real. If you can afford this flagship... it would be awesome (for me too...LOL)."
Nagulat ako sa recommendation niya dahil suwak at bagay sa top. Pati relic niya hindi BASTOS na relic an ginagawa ng iba dito.
As of now, this is my preference but I will be reviewing today your recommendations along with my initial choices.
I also liked the top that bryan pickedthe "simulated" one you selcted looks fine too! Almost spalted in character and 3D indeed. Delicious.
Yaron's work is jawdropping crazy. I've been gushing at the tdpri thread for quite sometime, and his attention to detail is off the scales. Good luck man, I'm excited for you :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 12:24:14 PM
I also liked the top that bryan pickedthe "simulated" one you selcted looks fine too! Almost spalted in character and 3D indeed. Delicious.
Yaron's work is jawdropping crazy. I've been gushing at the tdpri thread for quite sometime, and his attention to detail is off the scales. Good luck man, I'm excited for you :-)
Thanks but according to Fores Gump -- Life is a box full of chocolates. Keeping my fingers crossed for another 362 days.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 12:26:40 PM
any other details on the body? how about the neck and fingerboard material?
Haven't reached that stage yet... but I think he will recommend either Honduran Mahogany or African Mahogany. Don't really know yet and I guess it depends on the chosen top.
Fingerboard will be Brazilian pre-CITES. But I also don't know if it will be flat sawn or quarter sawn and what color it will be. I might have to leave that up to him.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 12:29:22 PM
I've always drooled at Gil's LP builds. I'm truly amazed with his eye for detail even up to the smallest things, I really admire his passion towards building guitars. Congrats Alex and enjoy the journey of having a custom guitar :-) This will be very interesting and exciting to watch it unfold.
Thanks... I just wished I had more money to buy seven more LPs from Gil because there are some other good looking tops in his stock. Sigh.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 04, 2010, 12:42:07 PM
Good choice. This is the luthier's Exhibition Grade Western Maple top called Jaw Dropper and very expensive -- lets just say that its cost is one of your guitars.
im not debating the price btw, hold on tight for the gil yaron ride
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: KASALANAN on October 04, 2010, 12:50:10 PM
Thanks... I just wished I had more money to buy seven more LPs from Gil because there are some other good looking tops in his stock. Sigh.
sir super OT. With all due respect what's your profession? Or what do you do for a living? kasi you have an effin amount of money to spend on guitar stuffs :-D :-D just curious, i dont mean to be offensive in anyway :-D :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: inigo on October 04, 2010, 01:01:10 PM
B, E, G, & H, but especially B. The grains/rings seem packed (slow wood growth or near the heartwood?) so they're real hard + they look nice. P sana, but it looks kinda messy.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: psychic_sushi on October 04, 2010, 01:06:50 PM
Thanks but according to Fores Gump -- Life is a box full of chocolates. Keeping my fingers crossed for another 362 days.
It'll be worth the wait, i'm sure. And alot of us here will be avidly following the countdown! Also considering that this guy also has it down to the glue chemistry and plastic material! His method of installing frets is an artform in itself.
I have a question- as for the neck spec, will you be following the vintage fat profile? Just wondering if you've given thought about that, but I now your still far from it as this discussion is still about the top.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: masterchoxter on October 04, 2010, 01:14:20 PM
i love where this thread is going... congrats oas! the information we'll be reading from your one-year guitar build will definitely be very helpful!
BTT:
tops C, D, or W for me...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: vhunter on October 04, 2010, 02:20:14 PM
Lol.. Alex you are lucky with the build that the builder is so involved with you.
I have another guitar being built by another high end dude.. and we hardly talk less even talk about the details of the build. Its probably my fault more than any ones.. but I believe you have to trust the builder to a certain extent. Good stuff with Gil man! I'm sure hes got his act together. let me hear it when its done. BTW what will it say on the headstock? Hahahaha
- Miks
BTW, I still think you shoulda gotten a JG. Hahahaha
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: guitbox on October 04, 2010, 02:24:26 PM
wow, just taking the love for guitar to another level. may this journey be a good one.
whatever the result is, am sure the learning is worth than the bucks spent.
God bless you!
BTW, what will you put on the headstock? :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: vhunter on October 04, 2010, 02:34:24 PM
btw alex remember that amp we were talking about the J? hahaha.. It's landed!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: nathanmanansala on October 04, 2010, 05:29:13 PM
quite a risk you're taking (as with any custom guitar build). the sum does not always equal the parts. sometimes you luck out and the sum > the parts, its often not like that. then you spend more tweaking the final product to finally get it to your liking.
thats probably why a lot of people prefer buying finished builds. para you have a chance to test and find one you like. yun lang you sometimes have to compromise on some things you were looking for (like the guitar not being the right color, or having a plain top instead of AAAA).
i've seen too many custom builds end up in ads (locally and abroad) to take a risk like this myself. hope it turns out well.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: kawal on October 04, 2010, 06:34:41 PM
Haven't reached that stage yet... but I think he will recommend either Honduran Mahogany or African Mahogany. Don't really know yet and I guess it depends on the chosen top.
Fingerboard will be Brazilian pre-CITES. But I also don't know if it will be flat sawn or quarter sawn and what color it will be. I might have to leave that up to him.
i'd say brazilian or indian rw for the body. any other plans for the body? like hollowed or pancaked, etc... and maybe match na rin yung top and neck. i mean kung curly maple yung top halimbawa, maganda rin kung curly maple na rin yung neck.
and btw, amber finish for C & Q tops. 8-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 07:50:40 PM
It'll be worth the wait, i'm sure. And alot of us here will be avidly following the countdown! Also considering that this guy also has it down to the glue chemistry and plastic material! His method of installing frets is an artform in itself.
I have a question- as for the neck spec, will you be following the vintage fat profile? Just wondering if you've given thought about that, but I now your still far from it as this discussion is still about the top.
Thanks!
Not sure yet but most likely I will follow the correct profile as recommended by the luthier. Not thought about it yet kasi parang sobrang layo pa.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 07:52:32 PM
Lol.. Alex you are lucky with the build that the builder is so involved with you.
I have another guitar being built by another high end dude.. and we hardly talk less even talk about the details of the build. Its probably my fault more than any ones.. but I believe you have to trust the builder to a certain extent. Good stuff with Gil man! I'm sure hes got his act together. let me hear it when its done. BTW what will it say on the headstock? Hahahaha
- Miks
BTW, I still think you shoulda gotten a JG. Hahahaha
I already told Gil that the headstock should say GilYaron. or maybe GY. Hahaha hoho hihi
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 08:06:01 PM
quite a risk you're taking (as with any custom guitar build). the sum does not always equal the parts. sometimes you luck out and the sum > the parts, its often not like that. then you spend more tweaking the final product to finally get it to your liking.
thats probably why a lot of people prefer buying finished builds. para you have a chance to test and find one you like. yun lang you sometimes have to compromise on some things you were looking for (like the guitar not being the right color, or having a plain top instead of AAAA).
i've seen too many custom builds end up in ads (locally and abroad) to take a risk like this myself. hope it turns out well.
I totally agree. Thanks to vhunter, I can trade it with some of his stuff including J. Heh Heh. But seriously, its getting harder finding good stuff coming from stores. In fact, instead of visiting stores, the best option for me at this point in time is to just visit Cliff in his house in North Carolina and buy guitars there. My problem with the online stores, more often then not they are afraid to pick. And even the guys with the guts to pick, have to wait for more inventory for them to test before replying to me. So, totally aware of the high risks of customs where a majority of the local builders fool others into thinking that they are the next sure thing, I am willing with my eyes open to take the risk. Nathan, thanks for the concern & support. I do hope I am still lucky but so far this builder seems skilled enough.
The way I view it with this builder -- of course its my biased viewpoint -- if it does not meet standard, I can at least sell it at the same price in the USA. If he does meet my standards then I am in deep [gooey brown stuff] because that paves the way to try out his tele, strat and more bursts! JG killer! JG killer! JG killer! Still have to name this guitar though. heh heh.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 08:11:55 PM
i'd say brazilian or indian rw for the body. any other plans for the body? like hollowed or pancaked, etc... and maybe match na rin yung top and neck. i mean kung curly maple yung top halimbawa, maganda rin kung curly maple na rin yung neck.
and btw, amber finish for C & Q tops. 8-)
I have just sent an email to the luthier. I left it all to him. Most likely, he will follow burst blueprint and specs.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 04, 2010, 08:32:00 PM
Dear all,
After much deliberation and inputs, I with a lot of discussion with luthier Friend Arie have decided on Top J.
1) Though most of the tops had appeal including the Western Maple ones, this specific top has three elements that none of the tops had to an EQUAL degree i.e. Huge Flame that looks natural which connects left to right and right to left, parallel vertical grain and swirly knots on both sides of the top. Truly a rare occurence to find in todays available maple tops. 2) The top by itself without any naphta already exhibited 3d characteristics that would only get better with finishing. As if there were a range of mountains and bulges -- parang nagkaroon na ng dish ang gitara maski na hindi ba na carve. 3) Even in jpg form the top already showed some action in the collage of pictures. 4) Hindi nakakasawa or umay ang top. I and my luthier friend have been coming back to look at the top on a daily basis.
So, again thank you for the votes... If I had more money, I would have also commissioned the tops that you recommended and probably have ordered at least seven Les Pauls.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: r_chino18 on October 04, 2010, 08:38:59 PM
^^^
very intricate. looking good sir. :-) It's only been a couple of days since you made the thread and now most of us, if not all, are dead excited on this custom.
all the best on your project. :wink:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on October 04, 2010, 11:05:57 PM
It'll be worth the wait, i'm sure. And alot of us here will be avidly following the countdown! Also considering that this guy also has it down to the glue chemistry and plastic material! His method of installing frets is an artform in itself.
I have a question- as for the neck spec, will you be following the vintage fat profile? Just wondering if you've given thought about that, but I now your still far from it as this discussion is still about the top.
Thanks!
Though still far off, the luthier has informed me that he will ask for thickness at 1st and the 11th fret. Hmmnn. It intrigues me about what options he will give given that I thought that there was only one 59 neck profile.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 05, 2010, 08:29:10 AM
I would like to talk about sound. One requirement I had on this build was that it had to sound like the best sounding bursts.
Though I promised Byran NOT to brag but:
I quote the luthier: "MOST AWESOME REALLY SCARY LOOKING & SOUNDING LES PAUL... is my middle name"
Well at least I can say that he has lots of enthusiasm and confidence. But the guy is really stoked on this build. Most probably because and I quote:
"S4 is my best top and one of the best I have ever seen. Not much to add to your description. It really screams "59"."
I myself wanted a 59 Lester that had tight bass (not splattery) with a musical and vocal midrange.
My friend Arie, wanted it to be like my suhr strat -- tight bass strings but with fat treble strings to which inasar ko siya na Les Paul build ito at hindi strat.
But apparently according to the luthier, the best sounding bursts and I quote:
"I have to agree with you on the large portion of mediocre bursts out there and the truth is, I can't guarantee every guitar I build is identical to the other but I always select the woods specifically for each build. Some like it woodier and warmer and some like it punchier and brighter... same thing with the PAF's... the originals are all over the place, but I replicate the "good ones" with the ability to control this "good" tone with different magnets and DCR (like on the originals...). I only build to order so there's no point in waiting for the "right one" especially when I have no idea what IS the right one for you. You should be the only judge of that of course. What I *can* offer however is the ability to fine tune the different elements to get a desirable type of sound. I usually stock at least 4 types of LP body wood and the absolutely best neck woods that offer great stability and frequency transfer. I use the best rosewoods for my LP's by selecting them from already premium selected batches of Brazilian RW and Madagascar RIO (I don't like Cocobolo much...) and 3 types of Maple for tops. Each selected blank gets an additional frequency test to verity desired properties and to prevent dead spots or hot spots... etc... I believe that if the above mentioned procedures were taken back in the happy 50's Gibson days we would have had many more "good ones" today."
I'd say bright and punchy and warm and woody at the same time... depending on the playing dynamics. That's the great thing about the old original bursts. If you like am open tone (defined as tight and defined by the luthier) on the lower strings then I'll build the PAF's accordingly. I personally like it this way too. Playability is guaranteed to be superb. I spend a long time setting up my instruments to not only sound good but also to feel good."
And this brings me to something I want to point out. At the earlier stage of this thread, somebody questioned or implied it to be foolish to give a luthier such control over the custom. I believe that giving control is OK as long as the luthier is an authority. For example, I will never give that much control or confidence to local luthiers to build a 59 replica. Its a waste of money because they have not even experienced one freakin burst in their life and of course you have to experience a lot of bursts to be able to build one.
As this luthier has pointed out, its not sufficient to be a woodworker to start making guitars. One has to have other skills such as wood selection, setup, conceptual understanding of how a piece of wood interacts with hardware and electronics, etc. But more than anything, this luthier had impressed me with his build and even to a certain degree the available soundclips. And now I am just having a blast corresponding with the guy. If you want to learn about Les Pauls, there is no any other way but to actually go on a build.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 05, 2010, 08:55:36 AM
I would like to talk about sound. One requirement I had on this build was that it had to sound like the best sounding bursts.
Though I promised Byran NOT to brag but:
I quote the luthier: "MOST AWESOME REALLY SCARY LOOKING & SOUNDING LES PAUL... is my middle name"
Well at least I can say that he has lots of enthusiasm and confidence. But the guy is really stoked on this build. Most probably because and I quote:
"S4 is my best top and one of the best I have ever seen. Not much to add to your description. It really screams "59"."
I myself wanted a 59 Lester that had tight bass (not splattery) with a musical and vocal midrange.
My friend Arie, wanted it to be like my suhr strat -- tight bass strings but with fat treble strings to which inasar ko siya na Les Paul build ito at hindi strat.
But apparently according to the luthier, the best sounding bursts and I quote:
"I have to agree with you on the large portion of mediocre bursts out there and the truth is, I can't guarantee every guitar I build is identical to the other but I always select the woods specifically for each build. Some like it woodier and warmer and some like it punchier and brighter... same thing with the PAF's... the originals are all over the place, but I replicate the "good ones" with the ability to control this "good" tone with different magnets and DCR (like on the originals...). I only build to order so there's no point in waiting for the "right one" especially when I have no idea what IS the right one for you. You should be the only judge of that of course. What I *can* offer however is the ability to fine tune the different elements to get a desirable type of sound. I usually stock at least 4 types of LP body wood and the absolutely best neck woods that offer great stability and frequency transfer. I use the best rosewoods for my LP's by selecting them from already premium selected batches of Brazilian RW and Madagascar RIO (I don't like Cocobolo much...) and 3 types of Maple for tops. Each selected blank gets an additional frequency test to verity desired properties and to prevent dead spots or hot spots... etc... I believe that if the above mentioned procedures were taken back in the happy 50's Gibson days we would have had many more "good ones" today."
I'd say bright and punchy and warm and woody at the same time... depending on the playing dynamics. That's the great thing about the old original bursts. If you like am open tone (defined as tight and defined by the luthier) on the lower strings then I'll build the PAF's accordingly. I personally like it this way too. Playability is guaranteed to be superb. I spend a long time setting up my instruments to not only sound good but also to feel good."
And this brings me to something I want to point out. At the earlier stage of this thread, somebody questioned or implied it to be foolish to give a luthier such control over the custom. I believe that giving control is OK as long as the luthier is an authority. For example, I will never give that much control or confidence to local luthiers to build a 59 replica. Its a waste of money because they have not even experienced one freakin burst in their life and of course you have to experience a lot of bursts to be able to build one.
As this luthier has pointed out, its not sufficient to be a woodworker to start making guitars. One has to have other skills such as wood selection, setup, conceptual understanding of how a piece of wood interacts with hardware and electronics, etc. But more than anything, this luthier had impressed me with his build and even to a certain degree the available soundclips. And now I am just having a blast corresponding with the guy. If you want to learn about Les Pauls, there is no any other way but to actually go on a build.
lol i dont recall you promising..like i said i dont mind..that its still along way to go..and most what he points out is after all is said and done, you get to judge the work with your own hands, ears, dynamics..with your own gear to accompany it..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: burnsbhm on October 05, 2010, 12:01:54 PM
Hintayin natin ang resulta around October 1-5, 2011.
Since we can never afford it the closest we can have to experiencing this one is to follow the thread.
Imagine ang selling price ng Yaron is at least US$8,000.00 sa Destroy All Guitars. Now this definitely costs more kasi pasadiya talaga.
Gosh, with $8,000.00, I can feed my family for 3 years na.
I do really hope it's not to anyone's disappointment kasi nga hit ang miss ang custom guitars.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: nathanmanansala on October 05, 2010, 12:05:33 PM
This is a set of pics of from a Les Paul with a top from the same billet of my chosen top. The finish is similar to what I picked but I think mine will be more reliced.
Take note of the action on this top. At different angles, the different shades and different aspects of the flame are visible unlike some flame tops where there are angles that show no flame.
My top will look better because it has wider flames and my pattern of flame is more wavy and less symmetrical than the inverted V pattern on this guitar.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: kurtseth on October 06, 2010, 07:01:07 AM
Hintayin natin ang resulta around October 1-5, 2011.
Since we can never afford it the closest we can have to experiencing this one is to follow the thread.
Imagine ang selling price ng Yaron is at least US$8,000.00 sa Destroy All Guitars. Now this definitely costs more kasi pasadiya talaga.
Gosh, with $8,000.00, I can feed my family for 3 years na.
I do really hope it's not to anyone's disappointment kasi nga hit ang miss ang custom guitars.
I agree that it is expensive but hopefuly well spent. Last year, I tested a Gibson Custom Shop 50th Anniversary 59 Burst sa Swee Lee in Hong Kong. This is a guitar that normally to my horror was already priced at US$6,000. At Swee Lee, it was priced to my disgust at Sing$9,000 and it was considered sale price pa with normal price of Sing$11,000. That was an acceptable looking top with small but dense flame but it sounded good compared to all other Gibson Custom Shops that I had tried up to that point in time (by the way, it has now been acknowledged that 2009 was good year for Gibson Custom Shop because maganda raw tunog ng wood batch). Ngayon, sa Swee Lee, nasa Sing$12,000 ang 60 Burst na anniversary na panget ang top at ayaw pa nilang pa subok sa iyo. But the really down side was the workmanship was so inferior to Baker's craftsmanship and the pickups were not great. I even felt that the finish at the back was masyadong maputla. Worse, none of the woods on the 50th Anniversary Gibson Custom Shop bursts were accurate -- walang Honduran Mahogany, Hindi Eastern Maple Top, Hindi Brazilian Rosewood. Tapos ang bigat pa.
If we look at the amount of work Gil Puts in his guitars -- he casts his own pickup ring because he believes it affects the sounds -- current available rings have the wrong composition and thats why the degrade sound, he uses 50s pickup rings screws -- which has an even bigger factor than the pickup rings on sound, he makes his own bell cover kasi walang tamang bell cover supplier, he uses Hyde Glue all over, he does the tenon correctly, he carves the dish by hand, he attaches frets the way it was done in the 50s -- which is shallow, he winds his own PAF (he casts his own bobbins), he does his own knobs, he casts and cuts his own pickguard, he does the logo the old non CNC way that Gibson did in the 50s, he uses the correct density and thickness of holly veneer, he cuts the correct nut thickness, he has the correct scale length as the originals (Rule of 18), he make his own studs for the tailpiece kasi maikli sa gibson, he angles the tailpiece correctly, he uses original trapezoid inlay material for his markers from Italy, etc and many more which I will list one by one. I think thats money well spent. More importantly, he selects the premium of the premium wood i.e. the premium Brazilian Rosewood, the premium Red Michigan Maple, premium Honduran and African Mahogany. Did I fail to mention that his target weight for this Les Paul is only 8.lbs? It takes him 15 days to make a Tele and probably longer for a Les Paul -- so at best Gil Can only make 24 guitars per year. Now thats custom -- wala pa siyang assistant for those that require na walang assistant ang luthier (except pala that his wife helps him wind the pickups).
This guitar is no ordinary Les Paul Standard. A JG is more expensive but personally I don't think it will ever be on the level of detail that GY does (Sorry JG Lovers -- you still got a different body and different bridge configuration). Max Baranet has offered to sell me one of his reproductions at US$35,000 but its seems that GY's attention to detail is much better than Max's based on pics sent to me. But more importantly, IF IT WORKS OUT (this part makes me nervous), GY can build in the response that I want in a guitar without having to travel around the world looking for Gibson custom shops that BOTH HAVE THE SOUND AND THE LOOK. Ang problema sa Gibson, kung minsan maganda tunog pero pangit tingnan at sama ng workmanship. Kung minsan maganda at itsura pero patay ang tunog.
Now the big question that I cannot answer as of now is if its worth it... In terms of aesthetic, authencity and specifications -- nobody else in the world can touch him at this point in time. But in terms of sound and response -- specially response kasi tingin ko sa sound may malaking chance na kuha rin niya -- it remains to be heard and played as pointed out here by the other forumites. To which I say, if GY gets its wouldn't any other non GY Les Paul (except the original good sounding bursts) be inferior now? By the way, option pa rin pa lagay ang pangalan na Gibson sa headstock but for me, I am more happy to say its Gil Yaron because I can start my own GIL YARON USERS THREAD (joke joke).
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 06, 2010, 08:14:52 AM
i'm a lurker on this thread. i wasn't able to see it when it was started and i'm a lazy reader so i just look at the photos. :lol:
good luck Alex! i'm sure with the level of involvement you have with the luthier (and the way he responds to you as well), this guitar will come out exactly as you want it. :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 06, 2010, 08:21:14 AM
i'm a lurker on this thread. i wasn't able to see it when it was started and i'm a lazy reader so i just look at the photos. :lol:
good luck Alex! i'm sure with the level of involvement you have with the luthier (and the way he responds to you as well), this guitar will come out exactly as you want it. :-)
Thanks...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 06, 2010, 08:28:31 AM
quick question tho...does wood tap tone apply to electric guitar bodies as well? i know it's one of the ways acoustic guitar luthiers test the quality of their wood before actually using them to build a guitar. but for electric guitar builds, i'm not sure.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: ael_israel on October 06, 2010, 08:30:12 AM
quick question tho...does wood tap tone apply to electric guitar bodies as well? i know it's one of the ways acoustic guitar luthiers test the quality of their wood before actually using them to build a guitar. but for electric guitar builds, i'm not sure.
IMHO , maybe. but the wood is too thick. im not really sure if it will produce a "glassy" tone when tapped.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 06, 2010, 11:13:56 AM
I agree that it is expensive but hopefuly well spent. Last year, I tested a Gibson Custom Shop 50th Anniversary 59 Burst sa Swee Lee in Hong Kong. This is a guitar that normally to my horror was already priced at US$6,000. At Swee Lee, it was priced to my disgust at Sing$9,000 and it was considered sale price pa with normal price of Sing$11,000. That was an acceptable looking top with small but dense flame but it sounded good compared to all other Gibson Custom Shops that I had tried up to that point in time (by the way, it has now been acknowledged that 2009 was good year for Gibson Custom Shop because maganda raw tunog ng wood batch). Ngayon, sa Swee Lee, nasa Sing$12,000 ang 60 Burst na anniversary na panget ang top at ayaw pa nilang pa subok sa iyo. But the really down side was the workmanship was so inferior to Baker's craftsmanship and the pickups were not great. I even felt that the finish at the back was masyadong maputla. Worse, none of the woods on the 50th Anniversary Gibson Custom Shop bursts were accurate -- walang Honduran Mahogany, Hindi Eastern Maple Top, Hindi Brazilian Rosewood. Tapos ang bigat pa.
If we look at the amount of work Gil Puts in his guitars -- he casts his own pickup ring because he believes it affects the sounds -- current available rings have the wrong composition and thats why the degrade sound, he uses 50s pickup rings screws -- which has an even bigger factor than the pickup rings on sound, he makes his own bell cover kasi walang tamang bell cover supplier, he uses Hyde Glue all over, he does the tenon correctly, he carves the dish by hand, he attaches frets the way it was done in the 50s -- which is shallow, he winds his own PAF (he casts his own bobbins), he does his own knobs, he casts and cuts his own pickguard, he does the logo the old non CNC way that Gibson did in the 50s, he uses the correct density and thickness of holly veneer, he cuts the correct nut thickness, he has the correct scale length as the originals (Rule of 18), he make his own studs for the tailpiece kasi maikli sa gibson, he angles the tailpiece correctly, he uses original trapezoid inlay material for his markers from Italy, etc and many more which I will list one by one. I think thats money well spent. More importantly, he selects the premium of the premium wood i.e. the premium Brazilian Rosewood, the premium Red Michigan Maple, premium Honduran and African Mahogany. Did I fail to mention that his target weight for this Les Paul is only 8.lbs? It takes him 15 days to make a Tele and probably longer for a Les Paul -- so at best Gil Can only make 24 guitars per year. Now thats custom -- wala pa siyang assistant for those that require na walang assistant ang luthier (except pala that his wife helps him wind the pickups).
This guitar is no ordinary Les Paul Standard. A JG is more expensive but personally I don't think it will ever be on the level of detail that GY does (Sorry JG Lovers -- you still got a different body and different bridge configuration). Max Baranet has offered to sell me one of his reproductions at US$35,000 but its seems that GY's attention to detail is much better than Max's based on pics sent to me. But more importantly, IF IT WORKS OUT (this part makes me nervous), GY can build in the response that I want in a guitar without having to travel around the world looking for Gibson custom shops that BOTH HAVE THE SOUND AND THE LOOK. Ang problema sa Gibson, kung minsan maganda tunog pero pangit tingnan at sama ng workmanship. Kung minsan maganda at itsura pero patay ang tunog.
Now the big question that I cannot answer as of now is if its worth it... In terms of aesthetic, authencity and specifications -- nobody else in the world can touch him at this point in time. But in terms of sound and response -- specially response kasi tingin ko sa sound may malaking chance na kuha rin niya -- it remains to be heard and played as pointed out here by the other forumites. To which I say, if GY gets its wouldn't any other non GY Les Paul (except the original good sounding bursts) be inferior now? By the way, option pa rin pa lagay ang pangalan na Gibson sa headstock but for me, I am more happy to say its Gil Yaron because I can start my own GIL YARON USERS THREAD (joke joke).
Sounds to me like if all the top materials, components, etc are used using specified construction detail performed by the best craftsman to do the job, then it's already worth it. Good for you. That's the most you can ASK for in a custom job. You already know that you can only HOPE for it to have the best tone of all LP but there is still no assurance. There is still a possibility that you will encounter a freak Gibson or MIJ LP that will sound better even to your ears, and its certainly possible that it sounds better to other people.
I paraphrase the quote from Ratatouille: "Not everyone can make a great guitar, but a great guitar can come from anywhere." This is doubly true cuz the definition of great tone is subjective and relative to the listener.
Good luck on your tone quest. Even if it doesn't meet your tone standards or other corksniffers' standards, it's still a special piece and perhaps someone somewhere will actually like the tone or want it despite the tone.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: toybitz on October 06, 2010, 01:31:47 PM
a bit off topic...
nalula ako na more than USD8,000 is leaving the Philippines...
sentiments ko lang ay ang economy natin..
Just like when Pacman bought his Porsche in the US pa...instead na mauwi na lang dolyar dito sa Pinas.
which indirectly, every Filipino at least..hopes this custom guitar will kick arse.
anyways...carry on.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: william251082 on October 06, 2010, 01:58:17 PM
nalula ako na more than USD8,000 is leaving the Philippines...
sentiments ko lang ay ang economy natin..
Just like when Pacman bought his Porsche in the US pa...instead na mauwi na lang dolyar dito sa Pinas.
which indirectly, every Filipino at least..hopes this custom guitar will kick arse.
anyways...carry on.
Much worse are those corrupt politician na pinangsusugal lang sa Las Vegas ang pera ng bayan, binebenta lang sa China ang mga natural resources natin etc. dahil yun ay mga nakaw na pera sa taong bayan at di hamak na mas malaki pa sa 8,000dollars. Sorry sa OT :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 06, 2010, 02:14:01 PM
Much worse is those corrupt politician na pinangsusugal lang sa Las Vegas ang pera ng bayan, binebenta lang sa China ang mga natural resources natin etc. dahil yun ay mga nakaw na pera sa taong bayan at di hamak na mas malaki pa sa 8,000dollars. Sorry sa OT :-D
+1
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 06, 2010, 02:16:35 PM
Sounds to me like if all the top materials, components, etc are used using specified construction detail performed by the best craftsman to do the job, then it's already worth it. Good for you. That's the most you can ASK for in a custom job. You already know that you can only HOPE for it to have the best tone of all LP but there is still no assurance. There is still a possibility that you will encounter a freak Gibson or MIJ LP that will sound better even to your ears, and its certainly possible that it sounds better to other people.
I paraphrase the quote from Ratatouille: "Not everyone can make a great guitar, but a great guitar can come from anywhere." This is doubly true cuz the definition of great tone is subjective and relative to the listener.
Good luck on your tone quest. Even if it doesn't meet your tone standards or other corksniffers' standards, it's still a special piece and perhaps someone somewhere will actually like the tone or want it despite the tone.
Thanks... I actually just decided to give up because the possibility of getting that freak gets smaller and smaller. Sound better? I doubt dahil wala pa akong nakitang nag claim and verified by anyone that a modern made les paul beets a good old sounding burst. I mean I have tried to search high & low (and that will include this custom but it as close as it can get) MIJ LP? Not hearing too many raves about Navigator Les Paul NLP 600 and up nor tokai LS 320 and up which are priced the same as Custom Shops. In the same way that I have never ever in my lifetime nor has anybody claimed that a Santa Mesa bolt on Les Paul will beat a USA made Gibson Custom Shop Les Paul. Subjective tone? Not really for a Les Paul -- I never spoke anything about twangy notes for this Paul with Gil so there must have been some objectivity. There may different sauces but only one meat & potatoes sound and response. Kung ganoon lang iyon, I could ask GY to send me all the different sets of PAF he makes and just change the pickup depending sa mood ko. But its that universal response that I am looking for and the great thing about a guitar is it either has it or it does -- there is no in between. If GY gets it right, and he does have I think a high probability of achieving that, you get a good sounding les paul that is really pretty. Relative? Don't know about that. A Les Paul into Marshall will not sound like a strat into a Marshall. Rather get it now and as you said... practice more. :)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: analog.matt on October 06, 2010, 02:22:48 PM
on the other hand, if you're a business owner, and you do the right thing meaning....pay your taxes...give people jobs...service...giving back to the community....etc etc.. (or even a successful professional)
I think one is entitled to spend what he has earned as long as, you have done your part to the gov't/society, hindi masama at nakakasakit sa ibang tao.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 06, 2010, 04:01:06 PM
...If GY gets it right, and he does have I think a high probability of achieving that, you get a good sounding les paul that is really pretty.
And at the end of the day that's what your money is buying you: higher probability that you get your dream guitar in terms of looks and tone. I won't bother to split hairs on the definition of probability vs. possibility as I described above in relation to a freak gtr.
Quote
Relative? Don't know about that. A Les Paul into Marshall will not sound like a strat into a Marshall. Rather get it now and as you said... practice more. :)
I meant relative even in terms of the classic LP tone. Maraming classic LP tones. But since universal response ang hanap mo, it doesn't matter much.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: fish_shtick on October 06, 2010, 04:21:21 PM
Bookmarked! This will be Epic. :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 06, 2010, 05:24:08 PM
And at the end of the day that's what your money is buying you: higher probability that you get your dream guitar in terms of looks and tone. Don't need to split hairs on the definition of probability vs. possibility as I described above in relation to a freak gtr.
I meant relative even in terms of the classic LP tone. Maraming classic LP tones. But since universal response ang hanap mo, it doesn't matter much.
And thats why I said that I can ask Gil to send me all his variations on the PAF and I can get really scary close to classic tones by just changing pickups anytime. The way I view this Les Paul build is part and parcel of a system. Its not only this Les Paul that is being considered but also some boutique Marshall amp makers as well; also an accurate Marshall 4x12 cabinet replica which I all plan to purchase one at a time. On top of that, I am looking forward to hearing the Paul thru the SLO, the VHT, the bogner, etc and even my first amp that was recently resurrected the Mesa Boogie Studio 22 combo which is more exciting for me but I still want those classic tones and I strongly feel this build removes the guitar variable so I can concentrate on the other components of the system. I was also considering booking a second Les Paul so I can stick some EMGs in them but I have to see how this build comes out which is as the luthier said is for him an awesome build. BUT I can only do these if I can reasonably ascertain that it matches and looks like some of the best sounding bursts -- and yes believe me when I say in the US that they can price a better sounding burst more expensively dahil they can objectively as a collective say that one burst is superior to the other in terms of sound.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Poundcake on October 06, 2010, 06:08:18 PM
Can't get enough of 'em guitars eh, man? That's a long wait for you and I hope you'll get a really awesome axe.
By the way, the top Q and top W looked great.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 06, 2010, 06:15:42 PM
Can't get enough of 'em guitars eh, man? That's a long wait for you and I hope you'll get a really awesome axe.
By the way, the top Q and top W looked great.
Kung pwede lang maka order pa using those tops and different finishes... Sigh. Siguro kung talaga responsive itong build na ito. 360 more days to go. Kaya nga inaasar ko si Gil. Sabi ko sa kanya, "ikaw kaya mo bang hintayin ang 360 days without feeling & hand carving that top and finishing it?"
Siya nga ang mukhang mas excited kasi ako resigned ako to the one year wait.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 06, 2010, 07:13:50 PM
may i ask why 1 year? kanina you said 15 days ang 1 guitar.. prolly sourcing the parts/wood?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 06, 2010, 07:26:45 PM
may i ask why 1 year? kanina you said 15 days ang 1 guitar.. prolly sourcing the parts/wood?
Maraming customer naka-pila....
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on October 06, 2010, 08:39:24 PM
Just curious Alex, what's the les paul tone in your head? Care to share examples? Have you had the chance/privilege of hearing and playing an original burst in person too? If so, how many have you heard and played? This should smoothen out your standards and expectations of what to expect i guess if that's the tone you are after
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 06, 2010, 09:04:12 PM
Just curious Alex, what's the les paul tone in your head? Care to share examples? Have you had the chance/privilege of hearing and playing an original burst in person too? If so, how many have you heard and played? This should smoothen out your standards and expectations of what to expect i guess if that's the tone you are after
Actually, Gil asked me to send him mp3s of what I think are ideal burst tones. So I am still thinking about them though. No privilege to play an original burst. Thats why I am relying on Gil to voice that into the build.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on October 06, 2010, 09:42:47 PM
just thought about it .. cos i've heard some luthiers say there are some folks who come in to a shop asking for a vintage spec build only to find out later that the tone in the head of the person is actually a more modern sounding tone ...
i think the clips would indeed help a lot...
this should get the voicing closer to the tone in your head instead of the tone in GY's head which may be different from your liking, thus increasing your chances for being satisfied with your build. it is after all your guitar and your taste in tone right? So taking that to the extreme, if the "les paul tone"" in your head sounded like a strat, GY should try to make your LP sound like a strat :) ... of course the example was just to make my point more obvious and not implying to your taste in tone...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: lovecore on October 07, 2010, 12:16:17 AM
Congrats in advance! Just from the choices it looks like a very worthwhile endeavor :) looking forward to the final product!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: nuno on October 07, 2010, 02:57:04 AM
I and X gets my vote.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: jimny on October 07, 2010, 04:37:18 AM
Quote
i think the clips would indeed help a lot...
lukather's '59
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pualux on October 07, 2010, 05:23:46 AM
sir if you've got alota cash, why not save up and buy a true vintage les paul rather than having a replica made?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: kurtseth on October 07, 2010, 05:39:16 AM
sir if you've got alota cash, why not save up and buy a true vintage les paul rather than having a replica made?
good point sir but i believe he wants the build according to the tone that he's been looking for. though it has not been clearly defined here in the thread Yet.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 07, 2010, 07:02:48 AM
just thought about it .. cos i've heard some luthiers say there are some folks who come in to a shop asking for a vintage spec build only to find out later that the tone in the head of the person is actually a more modern sounding tone ...
i think the clips would indeed help a lot...
this should get the voicing closer to the tone in your head instead of the tone in GY's head which may be different from your liking, thus increasing your chances for being satisfied with your build. it is after all your guitar and your taste in tone right? So taking that to the extreme, if the "les paul tone"" in your head sounded like a strat, GY should try to make your LP sound like a strat :) ... of course the example was just to make my point more obvious and not implying to your taste in tone...
Ok. Just to clarify. For this Les Paul build, I am looking for three things in order of priority:
1) Response -- the guitar being alive 2) Aesthetics -- physical specifications, authenticity, Flame, Patina, Finish, Shape 3) Timbre or what is normally referred to as tone
With regards to #1, in my whole life experience testing Gibson USA Les Pauls and Custom Shops in my estimate less than 1% of them have it. Now for those guitars that have response, most of the time 90% do not look beautiful. So, I could say the main priority of the build is to combine #1 and #2. I made this requirement to Gil and Gil knows it because he acknowledges that there are MORE mediocre bursts in real life than there are GOOD bursts. On a separate note, Dan Chelsea and G.E. Smith also personally told me that there are more bad sounding real bursts than good sounding ones.
With regards to #3, GY's position is to fine tune it using his experience with PAFs (which for him is important) that he will wind it accordingly to meet timbre requirement -- which more or less means that his wood selection gets you to the Les Paul sonic (timbre) foot print. A lot of people say kanya kanya because #3 Timbre is so variable but with regards to No 1 and No 2 people can objectively agree whether the guitar either has it or it doesn't -- there is no in between. So with regards to whether I like the faded cherry burst or darkburst, its a matter of preference but definitely it is near or on target to the original burst aesthetics -- at least in reference to it occuring on a real burst.
Let me take another quote from Gil on the good sounding bursts:
"I'd say bright and punchy and warm and woody at the same time... depending on the playing dynamics. That's the great thing about the old original bursts. If you like am open tone on the lower strings then I'll build the PAF's accordingly. I personally like it this way too. Playability is guaranteed to be superb. I spend a long time setting up my instruments to not only sound good but also to feel good."
With the underline sentence, we are talking about #1 Response. With the first sentence, second sentence and third sentence, we are talking about #3 Timbre.
I asked Gil this specific question some time ago:
Alex: I have this question bugging me. For strats and teles, you can easily change necks and bodies to produce an alive sounding and resonant guitar. But for a Les Paul, you have to glue the neck and body. So if a body and neck don't work out -- sound dead as a pair, do you remove them from each other and match them to another set of body and neck?
Gil: I can closely estimate the guitar tone before I even cut them to size. I run an EQ footprint test for every part of the guitar and match them. Of course there's a little margin factor that can't be predicted and every guitar sounds a little different and has its own personality if you will.
Personally, given that this Les Paul Build is accurate in construction and physical specifications including shape; if you have a whole selection of different PAFs, amps and different cabinets you can get any Les Paul Timbre.
The problem about the tone in your head: Its a copy of a CD or P.A. mix at best most of the time. A lot of the dimensionality and characteristics and more importantly RESPONSE of the guitar never get thru. Why? because technological limitations do not communicate feel. The tone in your head is eventually validated with a real world experience e.g. a real burst into a plexi into a 4x12 cabinet. So in this case because I am not or have not been exposed to real bursts, I trust Gil to do that for me because of his experience with real bursts.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 07, 2010, 07:23:31 AM
A few days ago, I had to decide on my fingerboard. Initially, he asked me if I wanted a dark colored board or a light colored one. I said I wanted a dark board.
Gil sent me two Brazilian Rosewood fingerboards to choose from (one flat sawn and the other quarter sawn):
I chose the swirly board -- the one on top which is flat sawn. Though according to him, when the guitar is reliced, the fingerboard will also look dark anyway. Only a close inspection will reveal the swirls.
These are premium Brazilian Rosewood fingerboards and not the ordinary Brazilian Rosewood that you can get (with difficulty).
For the next step, Gil is waiting for his shipment of Honduran Mahogany to cut before he chooses the specific billet. So, I am not sure whether he will choose to go with Honduran Mahogany or African Mahogany with the body.
Stay tuned.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 07, 2010, 11:29:23 AM
Gil: I can closely estimate the guitar tone before I even cut them to size. I run an EQ footprint test for every part of the guitar and match them. Of course there's a little margin factor that can't be predicted and every guitar sounds a little different and has its own personality if you will.
how the eff does he do that :? :? :?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 07, 2010, 12:20:20 PM
Gil: I can closely estimate the guitar tone before I even cut them to size. I run an EQ footprint test for every part of the guitar and match them. Of course there's a little margin factor that can't be predicted and every guitar sounds a little different and has its own personality if you will.
how the eff does he do that :? :? :?
Iyan ang binabayaran mo na wala niyan ang mga ibang luthier... heh heh
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 07, 2010, 12:47:33 PM
with the way he constructs his statements, it's apparent that he knows a lot about luthiery coupled with experience. :-)
braz is a very resonant tonewood and is used mostly for body wood. the move to use it for fingerboard wood made me very curious. i watched a vid that the fingerboard wood should have a dampening feature which can be achieved thru using ebony on high-end guitars. very curious...but i'm sure it will turn out for the best. :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 07, 2010, 02:22:58 PM
with the way he constructs his statements, it's apparent that he knows a lot about luthiery coupled with experience. :-)
braz is a very resonant tonewood and is used mostly for body wood. the move to use it for fingerboard wood made me very curious. i watched a vid that the fingerboard wood should have a dampening feature which can be achieved thru using ebony on high-end guitars. very curious...but i'm sure it will turn out for the best. :-)
Brazilian Rosewood was used on the original Bursts fingerboard and the pre CBS fender strat's fingerboard starting in 1962... It is considered by Gil as a hard wood.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 07, 2010, 02:34:04 PM
Gil: I can closely estimate the guitar tone before I even cut them to size. I run an EQ footprint test for every part of the guitar and match them. Of course there's a little margin factor that can't be predicted and every guitar sounds a little different and has its own personality if you will.
how the eff does he do that :? :? :?
Not sure how they do it but the world's best luthiers already do this, often using hi-tech tools and instruments: they study the characteristics of the wood and components, combine the right pieces, use construction techniques to compensate or tweak towards certain target sounds, thus building towards a ballpark overall sound. However, it seems violin makers are more advanced in this area than guitar luthiers are.
Btw, if you look at the whole guitar tone ecosystem, we already do this too. For e.g., we pair gtrs, amps, and pedals together to achieve a certain overall sound (eg, Fender Strat and amp w/ middy TS pedal). A guitar is one subsystem within that whole ecosystem: woods and other guitar components are matched the same way.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: kawal on October 07, 2010, 02:41:28 PM
what AWG does your luthier use for his PAF's? what type of alnicos and what DC resistance?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 07, 2010, 03:27:21 PM
what AWG does your luthier use for his PAF's? what type of alnicos and what DC resistance?
Wala pa ako doon but I think its posted on his build thread... though I think its less the AWG, magnet and DC resistance but more on the pattern of winding AND the material components of the wire.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 07, 2010, 03:28:29 PM
Not sure how they do it but the world's best luthiers already do this, often using hi-tech tools and instruments: they study the characteristics of the wood and components, combine the right pieces, use construction techniques to compensate or tweak towards certain target sounds, thus building towards a ballpark overall sound. However, it seems violin makers are more advanced in this area than guitar luthiers are.
Btw, if you look at the whole guitar tone ecosystem, we already do this too. For e.g., we pair gtrs, amps, and pedals together to achieve a certain overall sound (eg, Fender Strat and amp w/ middy TS pedal). A guitar is one subsystem within that whole ecosystem: woods and other guitar components are matched the same way.
cool, so thats the diff with mass produced guitars VS custom guitars from experienced luthiers. thats why mass produced guitars are more hit or miss than custom guitars from experienced luthiers.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 07, 2010, 04:01:39 PM
Attached is a sample of the clean sound of a Gil Yaron Burst:
Take note that hindi pa boutique ang amp na gamit AND I belive that in terms of timbre/ EQ is just right for all those midrangey overdrive and distortion sound of my amps.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 07, 2010, 04:13:55 PM
Attached is a sample of the clean sound of a Gil Yaron Burst:
Take note that hindi pa boutique ang amp na gamit AND I belive that in terms of timbre/ EQ is just right for all those midrangey overdrive and distortion sound of my amps.
will watch when i get home :-P
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: shift015 on October 07, 2010, 04:20:23 PM
Attached is a sample of the clean sound of a Gil Yaron Burst:
Take note that hindi pa boutique ang amp na gamit AND I belive that in terms of timbre/ EQ is just right for all those midrangey overdrive and distortion sound of my amps.
dapat may "Like" button na rin tayo dito. hehehe
it sings in my ears. so is THAT how a REAL burst is supposed to sound like?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 07, 2010, 04:23:16 PM
Brazilian Rosewood was used on the original Bursts fingerboard and the pre CBS fender strat's fingerboard starting in 1962... It is considered by Gil as a hard wood.
never knew that since my perspective is acoustic guitar building. thanks for sharing the info! :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Stratzkiboy on October 07, 2010, 07:12:08 PM
Gil: I can closely estimate the guitar tone before I even cut them to size. I run an EQ footprint test for every part of the guitar and match them. Of course there's a little margin factor that can't be predicted and every guitar sounds a little different and has its own personality if you will.
how the eff does he do that :? :? :?
I think he taps a tuning fork on various parts of the wood and analyzes it thru an oscilloscope looking machine... IM no expert and im just guessing based on a pic of him doing it in the tele forums, though it seems that he cures and selects em by doing that...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 07, 2010, 09:01:51 PM
Attached is a sample of the clean sound of a Gil Yaron Burst:
Take note that hindi pa boutique ang amp na gamit AND I belive that in terms of timbre/ EQ is just right for all those midrangey overdrive and distortion sound of my amps.
ok watched it, i find it twangy.. please correct me if my description is wrong..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: cumbersome on October 07, 2010, 10:08:34 PM
^I guess you'll have to be acquainted with a typical Gibby Les Paul to be able to tell the difference. A typical Les has accented lower mids, which can be annoyingly honky at times, especially when playing full chords using cleans or slight dirt. Sometimes this is accompanied with a lessened treble response, which adds to the overall muddiness. The Yaron in the video has a very balanced sound- not too much bass or lower mids, just enough treble, just enough clarity.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: dyames on October 07, 2010, 10:24:51 PM
Attached is a sample of the clean sound of a Gil Yaron Burst:
Take note that hindi pa boutique ang amp na gamit AND I belive that in terms of timbre/ EQ is just right for all those midrangey overdrive and distortion sound of my amps.
I find it sweeeet. I wish that your custom would be better if not at par with this one.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 07, 2010, 10:29:02 PM
Attached is a sample of the clean sound of a Gil Yaron Burst:
Take note that hindi pa boutique ang amp na gamit AND I belive that in terms of timbre/ EQ is just right for all those midrangey overdrive and distortion sound of my amps.
compared to a regular LP(gibson stuff sold in-stores), i find the one well based on the video. to my taste, its not a beefy les paul, and the action seems to be lower than usual. thats cool..it sounds great with Oz-noys hands..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 07, 2010, 11:10:56 PM
^I guess you'll have to be acquainted with a typical Gibby Les Paul to be able to tell the difference. A typical Les has accented lower mids, which can be annoyingly honky at times, especially when playing full chords using cleans or slight dirt. Sometimes this is accompanied with a lessened treble response, which adds to the overall muddiness. The Yaron in the video has a very balanced sound- not too much bass or lower mids, just enough treble, just enough clarity.
yeah i'm really not used to hearing les paul's clean sound. i always hear it in solos kasi.
this clean sound is like a twangy fat tone to me.. but im no les paul expert to be able to tell if this is the les paul sound or not... so there, waiting for everyones comments..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 07, 2010, 11:18:54 PM
yeah i'm really not used to hearing les paul's clean sound. i always hear it in solos kasi.
this clean sound is like a twangy fat tone to me.. but im no les paul expert to be able to tell if this is the les paul sound or not... so there, waiting for everyones comments..
thing is i always ask..what is a true les paul - les paul sound? each build from private builders, custom builders, imports have a individual sound and feel..
all i know is Gil will provide a well crafted and good sounding guitar, as far as replicating 1:1 to whatever what the TRUE TONE is..there is no way to tell
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 07, 2010, 11:24:41 PM
thing is i always ask..what is a true les paul - les paul sound? each build from private builders, custom builders, imports have a individual sound and feel..
all i know is Gil will provide a well crafted and good sounding guitar, as far as replicating 1:1 to whatever what the TRUE TONE is..there is no way to tell
well i think the true LP sound was, hmm, the old LPs Gibson used to produce? the one that differentiated them before with the strat? i dunno.. im confused haha!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: jbarot on October 07, 2010, 11:29:04 PM
just read this thread...well sort of, tamad din ako magbasa! hehehe
congrats on your custom order! it must be very exciting for you! looking at the choices, the tonewoods are yummy! brazilian rosewood...mmmmmmm....
question lang (since i haven't read the thread entirely): is the luthier is overseas and you are here in MNL? if no on both don't bother to read on :-D
i'm asking because i'm a weekend luthier when i lived abroad, and when i came back here weeks ago i brought all my tools and tonewood with me. since where i was the relative humidity is way less than the RH here, the woods i have need to sit it out for a few months, maybe years. already some of my ebony fretboards have moved a bit, and so some of my maple back and sides. they will settle in a few months i believe.
you do have to consider that the guitar as to acclimate (if it came from overseas) otherwise it will act funny. does your luthier know our country's RH? i suppose a solid body won't be affected as much as an acoustic, but i am curious since i don't know much about solid bodies and mnl's RH.
i don't mean to scare you or anything. but i suppose the imported solid bodies here have survived. but from this thread you have faith in your luthier and that he uses only seasoned wood, since green wood would be baaaad.
curious lang ba...for my information lang :-D
and when you get it, do post pics and sound bites, yes?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 08, 2010, 12:44:08 AM
ok watched it, i find it twangy.. please correct me if my description is wrong..
From what I have gathered on the average, the old bursts could be twangy and were less midrangey than the current Gibsons from the 70s onward. I was told by Mr. Cliff Cultreri that the good sounding bursts sounded like a forty foot strat.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 08, 2010, 01:00:19 AM
thing is i always ask..what is a true les paul - les paul sound? each build from private builders, custom builders, imports have a individual sound and feel..
all i know is Gil will provide a well crafted and good sounding guitar, as far as replicating 1:1 to whatever what the TRUE TONE is..there is no way to tell
For us who are not exposed to the real good sounding burst, I agree that there is now way to tell. But for Gil, I suspect a different story. I mean lets face it. In terms of timbre, historically correct construction and authenticity to detail (as goods as it gets), premium and the same age old woods as the original bursts, reversed engineered PAFs -- of any other luthier in the world I BELIEVE he can get it closest. So its not fair to say at this point that there is no way to tell. Can you suggest anybody better on the on all the aspects as close as Gil?
I was watching IT MIGHT BE LOUD on blue ray on a hi-fi playback system and the sound of Jimmy page's 1958 Les Paul was similar to the youtube Oz Noy. Of course without the compression of Youtube and obviously a better amp being used by Jimmy Page from his big stockroom of amps and guitars, it was heavenly. He did the Ramble On riff without any band just his guitar.. On Ramble On, he set a clean sound for the neck and an overdrive sound for the bridge pickup. I was shocked, the neck pickup sounded Fenderish with I suppose the volume backed down. The cool thing about the track is that it was obvious that there was only one setting on the amp -- it was set up for loud overdrive. So, obviously he was switching in and out of the two sounds using the pickup selector switch without adjusting his controls.
On the Blue-Ray, he also did Whole Lotta Love. He was showing both Jack White and the U2's edge how he played the Whole Lotta Love opening riff. And for the first time, it was so far from any of the remasters or albums (which they said was Tele?). The 58 Les Paul driven by the original Tone MK2 Professional made by Roger Mayer on the amp sounded more like a growl. It sounded big and mean. It was farthest from what it sounded on the albums. If you notice on the remasters, the whole lotta love riff still lacked bass and some lower mids. Not this case. It was thick and quite intimidating.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 08, 2010, 01:01:11 AM
well i think the true LP sound was, hmm, the old LPs Gibson used to produce? the one that differentiated them before with the strat? i dunno.. im confused haha!
and which old lp? lol kidding but realistically speaking..each one is unique too..even 1 Gil build is good but what if you had multiple to choose from a batch? there could be one that would be more in to your own liking that just being sent one..hopefully a few modeh ani's will guide this one
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 08, 2010, 01:16:15 AM
and which old lp? lol kidding but realistically speaking..each one is unique too..even 1 Gil build is good but what if you had multiple to choose from a batch? there could be one that would be more in to your own liking that just being sent one..hopefully a few modeh ani's will guide this one
Agree that there may be a tonal variation but as he said Gil said it might only be slight. If there is one thing he feels that he does better than the old burst manufacturing is that he is more consistent. Again, this is what you are paying for.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 08, 2010, 01:20:49 AM
For us who are not exposed to the real good sounding burst, I agree that there is now way to tell. But for Gil, I suspect a different story. I mean lets face it. In terms of timbre, historically correct construction and authenticity to detail (as goods as it gets), premium and the same age old woods as the original bursts, reversed engineered PAFs -- of any other luthier in the world I BELIEVE he can get it closest. So its not fair to say at this point that there is no way to tell.
alex, like we exchange pm's before(math&science to guide the build not the tone)..Gil will put his experience to it(what he studied), and is known for..
Quote
Can you suggest anybody better on the on all the aspects as close as Gil?
no because in a perfect world, you have to round up all them private builders from all over this earth and demo each one of their build that they consider is great..but thats not happening..
'but' because you went with Gil who does extra care in building(i followed his strat build in tdpri) and wants that all of his guitars are guaranteed to sound and play/feel great..
Quote
I was watching IT MIGHT BE LOUD on blue ray on a hi-fi playback system and the sound of Jimmy page's 1958 Les Paul was similar to the youtube Oz Noy. Of course without the compression of Youtube and obviously a better amp being used by Jimmy Page from his big stockroom of amps and guitars, it was heavenly.
im listening to the guitars 'ping' when oznoy tested that lp, and im talking about a good bell ping..and its good
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 08, 2010, 01:35:59 AM
just read this thread...well sort of, tamad din ako magbasa! hehehe
congrats on your custom order! it must be very exciting for you! looking at the choices, the tonewoods are yummy! brazilian rosewood...mmmmmmm....
question lang (since i haven't read the thread entirely): is the luthier is overseas and you are here in MNL? if no on both don't bother to read on :-D
i'm asking because i'm a weekend luthier when i lived abroad, and when i came back here weeks ago i brought all my tools and tonewood with me. since where i was the relative humidity is way less than the RH here, the woods i have need to sit it out for a few months, maybe years. already some of my ebony fretboards have moved a bit, and so some of my maple back and sides. they will settle in a few months i believe. (Gil allows his wood billets to sit out in Israel for two years before using it. Given the climate of Israel, for him its a natural kiln. Upon cutting the billets to a rough shape, he allows the billet to move for another month before working on it.)
you do have to consider that the guitar as to acclimate (if it came from overseas) otherwise it will act funny. does your luthier know our country's RH? i suppose a solid body won't be affected as much as an acoustic, but i am curious since i don't know much about solid bodies and mnl's RH. (I have two Bakers and two Suhrs. My first baker has been here roughly three years -- no movement since the day that it arrived. My suhr modern about two years and no movement since the day that it arrived. So I have to say that you might have to check your source of tonewoods because they may not be as dry.)
i don't mean to scare you or anything. but i suppose the imported solid bodies here have survived. but from this thread you have faith in your luthier and that he uses only seasoned wood, since green wood would be baaaad.
(60 year old wood and old growth at that.)
curious lang ba...for my information lang :-D
and when you get it, do post pics and sound bites, yes?
(Pics yes... sound bites no. Got no recording equipment. Will pass onto vhunter if he obliges the favor for sound bites complete with his playing into a J... heh heh)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: jbarot on October 08, 2010, 07:24:03 AM
thanks for the reply! :-) was just trying to find out how a guitar from overseas would initially react when brought here.
i get my wood from luthier's mercantile and allied lutherie primarily, and will continue to get wood from them. those two companies are THE places to go to get tonewood, and the staff on both places are friendly. i also have mahogany that i salvaged from a desk that's been around since 1910 i was told, and it was just laying on the sidewalk. people thought i was some crazy guy cutting up a desk with a hammer and screwdriver hahahaha. i think the reason for movement in some of my wood is that the planks in question were about 7mm thick. enough for the climate to mess it up in a short period of time. but this is a good thing, rather than them moving when the guitar is done :-o yikes! besides, ebony and maple are notorious for moving, but will be stable once settled.
i think that it doesn't matter if the wood is seasoned in one place, when you move it to another place it has to re-season, since technically any place can be a natural kiln. and movement will depend upon the differences in RH between the two places, and in some cases the type of wood species used. maybe the RH difference between mnl and where you got the other guitars are not too great, or the wood species your guitars have just don't care. in both cases, lucky for you :-D in my case, i brought some acoustic guitars here and they're still acclimating to mnl. i swear they sound different every time i play them (o baka lasing lang ako hehehe), so i only get to play them for a short period of time until they settle. i'm not worried about them swelling up and exploding but i would like them to settle down so i can tweak on them.
thanks for the info.
but i do insist on a sound bite (sorry makulit ako :-D). i'm getting really interested/excited for this guitar, and its not even mine! hahaha
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 08, 2010, 07:27:20 AM
From what I have gathered on the average, the old bursts could be twangy and were less midrangey than the current Gibsons from the 70s onward. I was told by Mr. Cliff Cultreri that the good sounding bursts sounded like a forty foot strat.
will watch the vid again, on headphones naman.. maybe i would hear it clearer..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 08, 2010, 10:27:15 AM
EDIT: Hindi lang pala yung Oz Noy video yung napanood ko na tunog Strat talaga yung LP. It was a demo by Gil's friend na umeextra yung anak.
---
Alex, I didn't bother reading back but maybe you can spell out exactly what LP you are referring to or looking for. I think some people are equating "bursts" with any old sunburst LP guitar, or vintage LP, or LP's in general.
Back in the day, a 'burst' only referred to an original (by now vintage) sunburst Gibson Les Paul made in 1958-60, supposedly the magical years. but Gibson made LPs before that and they are vintage LPs too. of course, they made loads of LPs after 1960. In all those years, there is a lot of variation in tone as well as quality. I hope people will be clear in saying what they really mean.
But even with real bursts, I can hear distinct differences between 3 of the most revered bursts in history: - Rev. Billy Gibbons' darkburst - Jimmy Page's main honeyburst - Peter Green/Gary Moore's lemonburst
But the one that really sounded to me like the most consistently classic tone was Michael Bloomfield's LP that he got in a trade from Dan Erlewine. it's got that woody, twangy and balanced sound in the demo videos that is hard to get in many LPs after 1960 (especially the 80s). a very versatile sound, from meow to growl without the mud. as you can see in some of the demo videos, at one point it almost sounded like a Strat! i'm sure the pickups had a lot to do with it.
btw, some of the LPs i've tried/heard that sounded closest to that tone are almost always light in weight. FWIW.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 08, 2010, 10:48:18 AM
Attached is a sample of the clean sound of a Gil Yaron Burst:
Take note that hindi pa boutique ang amp na gamit AND I belive that in terms of timbre/ EQ is just right for all those midrangey overdrive and distortion sound of my amps.
when you listen to the vid without watching, it may sound like a tele or a strat. :lol:
no sign of muddiness in that clean tone and i really like it since most clean tone LP demos sound a bit muddy. maybe because of the quality of the HBs used. EQ is balanced for me but a bit leaning to the highs. could've been better if he played more bluesy licks but overall he presented more or less the whole clean tone spectrum.
and too much reverb might fool us all. :lol:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 08, 2010, 12:00:04 PM
thanks for the reply! :-) was just trying to find out how a guitar from overseas would initially react when brought here.
i get my wood from luthier's mercantile and allied lutherie primarily, and will continue to get wood from them. those two companies are THE places to go to get tonewood, and the staff on both places are friendly. i also have mahogany that i salvaged from a desk that's been around since 1910 i was told, and it was just laying on the sidewalk. people thought i was some crazy guy cutting up a desk with a hammer and screwdriver hahahaha. i think the reason for movement in some of my wood is that the planks in question were about 7mm thick. enough for the climate to mess it up in a short period of time. but this is a good thing, rather than them moving when the guitar is done :-o yikes! besides, ebony and maple are notorious for moving, but will be stable once settled.
i think that it doesn't matter if the wood is seasoned in one place, when you move it to another place it has to re-season, since technically any place can be a natural kiln. and movement will depend upon the differences in RH between the two places, and in some cases the type of wood species used. maybe the RH difference between mnl and where you got the other guitars are not too great, or the wood species your guitars have just don't care. in both cases, lucky for you :-D in my case, i brought some acoustic guitars here and they're still acclimating to mnl. i swear they sound different every time i play them (o baka lasing lang ako hehehe), so i only get to play them for a short period of time until they settle. i'm not worried about them swelling up and exploding but i would like them to settle down so i can tweak on them.
thanks for the info.
but i do insist on a sound bite (sorry makulit ako :-D). i'm getting really interested/excited for this guitar, and its not even mine! hahaha
wow, new luthier, contact number please!!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 08, 2010, 12:04:44 PM
EDIT: Hindi lang pala yung Oz Noy video yung napanood ko na tunog Strat talaga yung LP. It was a demo by Gil's friend na umeextra yung anak.
---
Alex, I didn't bother reading back but maybe you can spell out exactly what LP you are referring to or looking for. I think some people are equating "bursts" with any old sunburst LP guitar, or vintage LP, or LP's in general.
Back in the day, a 'burst' only referred to an original (by now vintage) sunburst Gibson Les Paul made in 1958-60, supposedly the magical years. but Gibson made LPs before that and they are vintage LPs too. of course, they made loads of LPs after 1960. In all those years, there is a lot of variation in tone as well as quality. I hope people will be clear in saying what they really mean.
But even with real bursts, I can hear distinct differences between 3 of the most revered bursts in history: - Rev. Billy Gibbons' darkburst - Jimmy Page's main honeyburst - Peter Green/Gary Moore's lemonburst
But the one that really sounded to me like the most consistently classic tone was Michael Bloomfield's LP that he got in a trade from Dan Erlewine. it's got that woody, twangy and balanced sound in the demo videos that is hard to get in many LPs after 1960 (especially the 80s). a very versatile sound, from meow to growl without the mud. as you can see in some of the demo videos, at one point it almost sounded like a Strat! i'm sure the pickups had a lot to do with it.
btw, some of the LPs i've tried/heard that sounded closest to that tone are almost always light in weight. FWIW.
sooo, what i was hearing is correct, tele/stratty sounding nga.. but fatter.. never knew LPs were like this even in the old times.. the LP sound in my head was different, way different than strats.. guess i was wrong :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: jbarot on October 08, 2010, 12:21:18 PM
i'm just a weekend luthier. to me its just a hobby and i'm still learning the craft. right now my wood stash ("zoot" is the US slang for it, where did it come from i don't know) is acclimating to mnl's weather. that means i won't be working with them anytime soon :oops: i really can't wait.
for now i'm just sorting things out and fine tuning some vintage hand planes i got a while back, and thinking of making jigs and fixtures that would help me.
i don't mind giving my number, just pm me for it thanks!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 08, 2010, 02:03:31 PM
sooo, what i was hearing is correct, tele/stratty sounding nga.. but fatter.. never knew LPs were like this even in the old times.. the LP sound in my head was different, way different than strats.. guess i was wrong :lol: :lol:
IMO, the biggest factor sa difference is the pickup - HB vs. SC - not necessarily the physical features. The second biggest factor is where we plug it into: more often than not, LPs go into a cranked or overdriven Marshall-voiced amp, and/or thru a pedal.
Pakinggan mo ang LP na naka split coil nakasaksak rekta sa Twin Reverb. Nasa neighborhood na ng Strat/Tele lang din e.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 08, 2010, 03:58:55 PM
IMO, the biggest factor sa difference is the pickup - HB vs. SC - not necessarily the physical features. The second biggest factor is where we plug it into: more often than not, LPs go into a cranked or overdriven Marshall-voiced amp, and/or thru a pedal.
Pakinggan mo ang LP na naka split coil nakasaksak rekta sa Twin Reverb. Nasa neighborhood na ng Strat/Tele lang din e.
but naka split ba siya? and marshall ata ang gamit niya? ill rewatch the vid..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: vhunter on October 08, 2010, 05:07:21 PM
Actually, good LP's generally sound like Tele's.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 08, 2010, 05:46:09 PM
IMO, the biggest factor sa difference is the pickup - HB vs. SC - not necessarily the physical features. The second biggest factor is where we plug it into: more often than not, LPs go into a cranked or overdriven Marshall-voiced amp, and/or thru a pedal.
Pakinggan mo ang LP na naka split coil nakasaksak rekta sa Twin Reverb. Nasa neighborhood na ng Strat/Tele lang din e.
+1 to Joric's comments. My b3 Fire also has a coil split switch and I regularly use it to get a thinner, twangy rhythm tone. The normal humbucker tone is very thick.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: qroon on October 08, 2010, 08:34:38 PM
Went through the whole thread. Very interesting read (not that I have the money for custom-build, even for local luthiers) but very interesting none-the-less. I heard the tone of the LP in the video posted. And the tone is hauntingly similar to one LP I tested, but alas, I'm a bassist so I can barely distinguish a strat to tele to LP tone. And I love that twang-y sound :) Makes me want to re-visit the shop and test it again :)
@TS Good luck with this quest!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 08, 2010, 11:19:55 PM
wait, did i hear a buzz on the first few seconds on the low E? or am i dreaming
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 08, 2010, 11:25:45 PM
the very first second he strummed a chord.. and the 2nd strum..though it was not that heard through the amp.. or maybe its another thing rattling because of the amp? im using headphones btw so i can hear it much better than speakers.
doesnt bother me much, i just thought high end guitars dont do that..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 09, 2010, 12:10:53 AM
the very first second he strummed a chord.. and the 2nd strum..though it was not that heard through the amp.. or maybe its another thing rattling because of the amp? im using headphones btw so i can hear it much better than speakers.
i listened to it using speakers..ill give it another run later..
Quote
doesnt bother me much, i just thought high end guitars dont do that..
made me lol, it could be freshly strung..i do like the ping on the high end register
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 09, 2010, 12:21:37 AM
thanks for the reply! :-) was just trying to find out how a guitar from overseas would initially react when brought here.
i get my wood from luthier's mercantile and allied lutherie primarily, and will continue to get wood from them. those two companies are THE places to go to get tonewood, and the staff on both places are friendly. i also have mahogany that i salvaged from a desk that's been around since 1910 i was told, and it was just laying on the sidewalk. people thought i was some crazy guy cutting up a desk with a hammer and screwdriver hahahaha. i think the reason for movement in some of my wood is that the planks in question were about 7mm thick. enough for the climate to mess it up in a short period of time. but this is a good thing, rather than them moving when the guitar is done :-o yikes! besides, ebony and maple are notorious for moving, but will be stable once settled.
i think that it doesn't matter if the wood is seasoned in one place, when you move it to another place it has to re-season, since technically any place can be a natural kiln. and movement will depend upon the differences in RH between the two places, and in some cases the type of wood species used. maybe the RH difference between mnl and where you got the other guitars are not too great, or the wood species your guitars have just don't care. in both cases, lucky for you :-D in my case, i brought some acoustic guitars here and they're still acclimating to mnl. i swear they sound different every time i play them (o baka lasing lang ako hehehe), so i only get to play them for a short period of time until they settle. i'm not worried about them swelling up and exploding but i would like them to settle down so i can tweak on them.
thanks for the info.
but i do insist on a sound bite (sorry makulit ako :-D). i'm getting really interested/excited for this guitar, and its not even mine! hahaha
Just a word of caution on wood from Gil (lifted this from his thread):
The soil and weather conditions affect the properties of a tree. Even for an exact same specie, the outcome can be very different from area to area. Honduras Mahogany was always considered premium. I have a couple of the "same" wood from South America... and it's not the same quality. Same thing for Alder, Ash, Maple etc... It's better to find a source you're happy with and stick to it. Last year I threw away a lot of funds (twice!!!) on "Honduras Mahogany" with expensive shipping costs that turned into wooden toys for my daughters and their friends. They love those little hearts and stars on a stick and use them as a magic wand (half their school girls now got those and they're asking for more...LOL). BTW, it's always good to ask for paperwork that prove the origin of the wood you're buying. If the lumber yard says "no" ... it's usually a red light.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 09, 2010, 12:23:52 AM
but naka split ba siya? and marshall ata ang gamit niya? ill rewatch the vid..
Gil Yaron does NOT offer coil splits...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: hamsterjamster on October 09, 2010, 12:25:07 AM
the GY replica in the vid did sound bright..but i felt that it wasn't strat bright..nor tele..somehow LP tone pa rin eh..it sounded nice..very clear notes..could be the player matched with the guitar's tone. na move ako hehe :)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 09, 2010, 12:25:57 AM
made me lol, it could be freshly strung..i do like the ping on the high end register
haha im serious, because im OC with those. i really thought they dont have those buzzes. havent tried a high end guitar i just dont have the drive to try or buy one.. prolly im satisfied with my guitars plus i dont do this as my profession.. but hey give me one for free or a bargain ill take it!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 09, 2010, 12:28:54 AM
the very first second he strummed a chord.. and the 2nd strum..though it was not that heard through the amp.. or maybe its another thing rattling because of the amp? im using headphones btw so i can hear it much better than speakers.
doesnt bother me much, i just thought high end guitars dont do that..
No buzz for me on both chords. I am using a Sound Blaster XFI Fatality Edition with AKG K271 Studio headphones 55 ohms (made in Austria)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 09, 2010, 01:26:11 AM
No buzz for me on both chords. I am using a Sound Blaster XFI Fatality Edition with AKG K271 Studio headphones 55 ohms (made in Austria)
buzz wasnt heard through the amp, it was the guitar acoustically from what ive heard, or maybe its just me.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: skrumian on October 09, 2010, 01:41:11 AM
just heard the clip. just wow. a combi of strat, tele and lp. glassy, twangy yet still kinda fat, not harsh nor boomy fat .
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: galingnamanon on October 09, 2010, 03:22:44 AM
..honestly..you know what..i do seem to hear the 'buzz' as well..dun nga lang sa unang part..
..possibly nga freshly strung strings nga plus maybe the action is really just so exact..or maybe has to do with the way he plucked the string din..ewan..hehe
..or maybe it's coming from some of the metal parts of the guitars hanging on the wall?haha
..at any rate madali lang iadjust yan sa setup (kung galing nga sa guitar - sounds like it though)..am sure GY can easily fix something like that..so it's nothing to really be alarmed about.. :lol:
..but seriously though..ang ganda ng tunog..at ng balance..the dude definitely knows how to make pickups din :-D awesome
*for all we know..baka that's the first time they tried the guitar plugged din di ba..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: william251082 on October 09, 2010, 03:40:16 AM
In my case, if I want a tele-sound I'll get a tele, a start-sound I'll get a strat, an LP-sound I'll get an LP, a semi hollow-sound I'll get an es335 etc. :-D Made any sense??? :-D Youtube's sound is compressed too, so it's difficult to judge anything especially guitar demos.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on October 09, 2010, 05:36:08 AM
Alex, I didn't bother reading back but maybe you can spell out exactly what LP you are referring to or looking for. I think some people are equating "bursts" with any old sunburst LP guitar, or vintage LP, or LP's in general.
Back in the day, a 'burst' only referred to an original (by now vintage) sunburst Gibson Les Paul made in 1958-60, supposedly the magical years. but Gibson made LPs before that and they are vintage LPs too. of course, they made loads of LPs after 1960. In all those years, there is a lot of variation in tone as well as quality. I hope people will be clear in saying what they really mean.
But even with real bursts, I can hear distinct differences between 3 of the most revered bursts in history: - Rev. Billy Gibbons' darkburst - Jimmy Page's main honeyburst - Peter Green/Gary Moore's lemonburst
btw, some of the LPs i've tried/heard that sounded closest to that tone are almost always light in weight. FWIW.
+1 on this ... this is exactly the reason alex why I asked what is the tone in YOUR head ... and why I mentioned that clips you send to GY will help him a lot. is the "vintage" tone really what you are after? because the "vintage" tone is very subjective based on preference, taste and experience
On a separate note, yes I have noticed that the good old LP's really do sound tele-ish. Although youtube isn't the best source to verify this, the characteristic sound is pretty audible ... I can hear it as well on my old vinyls of Les Paul and Mary Ford (though he used more pre-burst era LP's so that's not really a fair comparison). Based on personal experience, my old replica had that tele-ish sound. my conversion also has that tele-ish sound, you can notice this especially in the middle position. And yes, they were generally lighter in weight than my other historic LP's. I believe my replica was lighter than my conversion, though I do not have accurate measurements to prove it. But my replica sounded more tele-ish than my conversion from what I can recall. I don't know if there could be a co-relation there na lighter = more tele sounding since this is only based on a couple of guitars...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 09, 2010, 05:53:30 AM
..honestly..you know what..i do seem to hear the 'buzz' as well..dun nga lang sa unang part..
..possibly nga freshly strung strings nga plus maybe the action is really just so exact..or maybe has to do with the way he plucked the string din..ewan..hehe
..or maybe it's coming from some of the metal parts of the guitars hanging on the wall?haha
..at any rate madali lang iadjust yan sa setup (kung galing nga sa guitar - sounds like it though)..am sure GY can easily fix something like that..so it's nothing to really be alarmed about.. :lol:
..but seriously though..ang ganda ng tunog..at ng balance..the dude definitely knows how to make pickups din :-D awesome
*for all we know..baka that's the first time they tried the guitar plugged din di ba..
yeah its no biggie so long as it aint heard through the amp, i just thought high end guitars dont do that, hehe
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 09, 2010, 06:38:39 AM
In my case, if I want a tele-sound I'll get a tele, a start-sound I'll get a strat, an LP-sound I'll get an LP, a semi hollow-sound I'll get an es335 etc. :-D Made any sense??? :-D Youtube's sound is compressed too, so it's difficult to judge anything especially guitar demos.
So which tele sound (Bakersfiled ba? Blackguard? Or No caster maybe an esquire?) Which Strat Sound? (Early 50s, Late 50s, Early 60s?) Lp? (52 or 54, how about 57, bursts?) 335? (60s or 70s?)
I think the point of a good sounding burst is that it still has Fender elements but as will be richer in terms of harmonics. As my friend cliff said, its a 40 foot strat. Unfortunately, all strats don't sound as big as a good sounding Les Paul.
Agree with you on youtube's limitations. Its better to hear it in person.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 09, 2010, 06:47:13 AM
+1 on this ... this is exactly the reason alex why I asked what is the tone in YOUR head ... and why I mentioned that clips you send to GY will help him a lot. is the "vintage" tone really what you are after? because the "vintage" tone is very subjective based on preference, taste and experience
On a separate note, yes I have noticed that the good old LP's really do sound tele-ish. Although youtube isn't the best source to verify this, the characteristic sound is pretty audible ... I can hear it as well on my old vinyls of Les Paul and Mary Ford (though he used more pre-burst era LP's so that's not really a fair comparison). Based on personal experience, my old replica had that tele-ish sound. my conversion also has that tele-ish sound, you can notice this especially in the middle position. And yes, they were generally lighter in weight than my other historic LP's. I believe my replica was lighter than my conversion, though I do not have accurate measurements to prove it. But my replica sounded more tele-ish than my conversion from what I can recall. I don't know if there could be a co-relation there na lighter = more tele sounding since this is only based on a couple of guitars...
As I said tone/timbre is not as important because it is easiest to get. Since I am confident that Gil will produce his best to get the good sounding bursts tonal footprint, I am more concerned about Response combined with aesthetics. In short, whatever vintage tone that I get to like at any moment in time, all I have to do is get the amp and the cabinet. I do not necessarily have to railroad the guitar into a certain timbre which is easily done by asking Gil to send the appropriate pickups. As of now based on my agreement with Gil -- the best sounding bursts which means WARM and WOODY AND BRIGHT and PUNCHY at the same time. If you listen to IT MIGHT GET LOUD on blue-ray, jimmy page's 58 sounds nothing like any track on Led Zeppelin. Its bigger sounding with a growl and the sweetest clean sound with an acoustic like dimension on clean. It is NO way vintage. I have to go with Cliff on this -- 40 foot strat.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: siore on October 09, 2010, 10:08:44 AM
Good LP's sound like teles?? :roll: Pretty sure a lot of norlin owners would disagree. If it sounds like a tele, no way it's for me.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: william251082 on October 09, 2010, 11:55:58 AM
So which tele sound (Bakersfiled ba? Blackguard? Or No caster maybe an esquire?) Which Strat Sound? (Early 50s, Late 50s, Early 60s?) Lp? (52 or 54, how about 57, bursts?) 335? (60s or 70s?)
I think the point of a good sounding burst is that it still has Fender elements but as will be richer in terms of harmonics. As my friend cliff said, its a 40 foot strat. Unfortunately, all strats don't sound as big as a good sounding Les Paul.
Kung ganyan na ka-detailed eh, I have to admit, wala akong alam. :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 11, 2010, 10:07:29 PM
Latest updated tone talk with Gil:
Alex: I leave it up to you to select which mahogany blank to use -- african or honduran as long as it gets the 'tone'. I can wait. More than timbre, I really would appreciate it if you can get the response and the character of the exceptional sounding bursts. By the way, what weight are you targeting for this build? I CAN SACRIFICE target weight to make it easier for you to get the response and character.
Gil: OK. All my lumber is light so I'll base the selection on tone alone. probably mid 8 lbs
Alex: With regards to timbre, I prefer to go with your original recommendation of the good sounding burst (warm and woody AND bright and punchy all at the same time). Also as discussed, I agree with your preference to have an open tone on the low strings (tight and defined).
Gil: OK Alex: That being said, If you really wanted to know what I want this Paul to sound like (I still strongly believe that you know what sounds best), I would like to identify Jimmy Page's 1958 Les Paul burst on the documentary film IT MIGHT GET LOUD. I have it on Blue Ray and I believe the audio on the format really allows one to hear his burst.
a) For the clean sound, I like the neck pick up sound (obviously backed off) on his own rendition of RAMBLE ON where he talks about the use of dynamics. He was playing in some room with lots of his amps with a backdrop steel shelf of guitar cases. I found the clip on youtube please look for "JIMMY PAGE -- RAMBLE ON (IT MIGHT GET LOUD)". But if you get the chance please listen to the blue-ray version played back on a HIFI system. It really sounds different.
b) For the overdrive sound, I like the bridge sound on the same RAMBLE ON track when he switches to the louder bridge pickup.
c) For the distorted sound, I like his sound in the IT MIGHT GET LOUD scene where he teaches Jack White and U2's The Edge how to do the Whole Lotta Love Riff. His '58 burst was plugged into a Roger Mayer Tone Bender Professional MK.2 -- I think. It was a big and growling Les Paul with full frequency bandwidth which I never heard on the Jimmy Page remastered Led Zepplin tracks. Again I encourage you to listen to the Blue Ray edition behind a HIFI system. For the you tube version: "Rock Guitar Lesson - It Might Get loud" at 1:07 minutes.
Gil:I got that video. Note that Jimmy's #1 is a little on the bright side. He uses the vol and tone knobs a lot and sets the amp to round its "roughness"... + he plays like Jimmy Page (-;
Alex: I also hope this les paul replica won't be thin sounding and and not too thick sounding at the expense of clarity.
Gil: Exactly. Alex: I would gladly appreicate your walk thru process about the tonal options for info purposes.
Gil: I plan to use "average" 59 tone for your build. Not too compressed and not too fat. This way I'll be able to tweek the final tonal footprint with the PAF's.
Alnico 2 - soft and warm with nice low mids
Alnico 3 - Brittle sounding with less lows and sharp highs. Lots of harmonics
Alnico 4 - Sweet and balanced with enough "Umpf" for smooth punchy Overdrive
Alnico 5 - Full and punchy with a little more output and highs than AL-4
Alnico 5L - My own copy of my PAF set with off axis magnetic field. Like AL-5 but much sweater with well defined and clear lows
I recommend the following as a base for your requirements: Neck: Alnico 5L with 7.3K DCR unbalancly wound bobbins Bridge: Alnico 4 with 8.1K DCR balanced wound bobbins
It is a little different than the JP #1 setup... I know... but unless you want an exact JP replica, The above recommendation will give you a better balanced instrument suitable for many styles of music.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 11, 2010, 10:36:36 PM
@alex
would be nice if you could get each of those pups in set and audition them probably a week for each set and then decide..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: shift015 on October 11, 2010, 10:45:14 PM
Latest updated tone talk with Gil: ... Gil: OK. All my lumber is light so I'll base the selection on tone alone. probably mid 8 lbs ... Gil: I plan to use "average" 59 tone for your build. Not too compressed and not too fat. This way I'll be able to tweek the final tonal footprint with the PAF's.
Alnico 2 - soft and warm with nice low mids
Alnico 3 - Brittle sounding with less lows and sharp highs. Lots of harmonics
Alnico 4 - Sweet and balanced with enough "Umpf" for smooth punchy Overdrive
Alnico 5 - Full and punchy with a little more output and highs than AL-4
Alnico 5L - My own copy of my PAF set with off axis magnetic field. Like AL-5 but much sweater with well defined and clear lows ...
i may have just wet my shorts. i again listened to the earlier posted youtube vid, but in the "uncompressed" hi-q mode, and with in-ear plugs. this might be the one to convert me over to humbuckers.
i wonder what this off-axis magnetic field is...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 11, 2010, 10:51:43 PM
buzz wasnt heard through the amp, it was the guitar acoustically from what ive heard, or maybe its just me.
i did download the video and will re-listen tonight and i think the natural guitar sound is louder than the amp..it would sound different if it was mic'd..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 12, 2010, 06:09:07 AM
would be nice if you could get each of those pups in set and audition them probably a week for each set and then decide..
Yup it would be nice and I am GASING to get all the pickups. But so far I like his reco because he feels its optimum and I gave him the approval to go ahead. On other hand, I got a ton of amps to compensate. Mas bilib ako sa amp kaysa pickups.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 12, 2010, 06:10:54 AM
i may have just wet my shorts. i again listened to the earlier posted youtube vid, but in the "uncompressed" hi-q mode, and with in-ear plugs. this might be the one to convert me over to humbuckers.
i wonder what this off-axis magnetic field is...
The off-axis magnetic field is described in his Les Paul build on the Telecaster Forum.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 12, 2010, 06:27:29 AM
One thing I noticed with Gil is that tonal discussions are very extensive. Unlike so many other luthiers, he presents several options that are validated by exposure and experience. But what makes him different is his ability to accurately dissect what the wood brings versus what the pickups contritube to the overall picture. He respects variability in woods even though he already selects from premium woods and as shown in the post, is even keenly aware of how weight can affect final tone.
Unfortunately, I do hope that our local luthiers reach this level of mastery. At 44, Gil Yaron seems to exhibit an expertise in ALL areas related to guitar making that is so far ahead of anyone else. If he does deliver and I get a chance to order a second guitar from him that delivers, it actually solves GAS. Why? Because since you are now confident that he can deliver the accuracy, timbre and the response, all you have to do is choose the aesthetics which is something you have to compromise in the guitar store.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 12, 2010, 07:02:16 AM
Yup it would be nice and I am GASING to get all the pickups. But so far I like his reco because he feels its optimum and I gave him the approval to go ahead. On other hand, I got a ton of amps to compensate. Mas bilib ako sa amp kaysa pickups.
sure amps have a voicing and so do pickups..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: shift015 on October 12, 2010, 07:53:43 AM
i did download the video and will re-listen tonight and i think the natural guitar sound is louder than the amp..it would sound different if it was mic'd..
yes, the "buzz" i heard was from the guitar acoustically, because it aint heard from the amp.. im not against the guitar or anything, i just thought high end guitars doesn't do that.. because sometimes i get irritated when i play the guitar unplugged and i hear those, so i just plug the guitar to the amp..
also, maybe he plucked the string too hard? by the way im liking the tone of that LP now from listening to it many times, maybe because im into tele/stratty sounds
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 12, 2010, 08:38:26 AM
One thing I noticed with Gil is that tonal discussions are very extensive. Unlike so many other luthiers, he presents several options that are validated by exposure and experience. But what makes him different is his ability to accurately dissect what the wood brings versus what the pickups contritube to the overall picture. He respects variability in woods even though he already selects from premium woods and as shown in the post, is even keenly aware of how weight can affect final tone.
Unfortunately, I do hope that our local luthiers reach this level of mastery. At 44, Gil Yaron seems to exhibit an expertise in ALL areas related to guitar making that is so far ahead of anyone else. If he does deliver and I get a chance to order a second guitar from him that delivers, it actually solves GAS. Why? Because since you are now confident that he can deliver the accuracy, timbre and the response, all you have to do is choose the aesthetics which is something you have to compromise in the guitar store.
based on his definite answers with your query, its seems that he is so sure about what he's saying, its nice.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 12, 2010, 09:58:04 AM
For pickups, its less voicing for me but more of pick attack and harmonic sustain characteristics. The amp plays a way much greater role on voicing than pickups.
And I quote Gil Yaron from my previous post:
"Gil:I got that video. Note that Jimmy's #1 is a little on the bright side. He uses the vol and tone knobs a lot and sets the amp to round its "roughness"... + he plays like Jimmy Page (-; "
In fact, guitar speakers are way way more important than pickups.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 12, 2010, 10:14:01 AM
ito ba yung 100+ pager niya wherein he documents building his first 3 bursts?
Yup he explains it there (Check the index to the discussion on page 100 -- somebody summarized what was happening per page) though parang 6 builds na yata. He is currently on his 2nd batch of 3.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 12, 2010, 10:16:48 AM
Yup he explains its there (Check the index to the discussion on page 100 -- somebody summarized what was happening per page) though parang 6 builds na yata. He is currently on his 2nd batch of 3.
i guess i'll go through tdpri to know how exactly he determines wood response. based on what i've read in this thread so far, more details were placed on the aesthetics and the pickups than on the "HOW" of tonewoods (or my eyes have been deceiving me so far). :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 12, 2010, 10:21:24 AM
i guess i'll go through tdpri to know how exactly he determines wood response. based on what i've read in this thread so far, more details were placed on the aesthetics and the pickups than on the "HOW" of tonewoods (or my eyes have been deceiving me so far). :-D
Its his secret. But what we can ascertain is that his wood is so select, he burns and carves into toys tons of Honduran Mahogany because they fail to meet tonal requirements. I think there is a page in the tdpri thread where this is a picture of shaped necks and bodies burning in a bonfire.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 12, 2010, 10:29:20 AM
Its his secret. But what we can ascertain is that his wood is so select, he burns and carves into toys tons of Honduran Mahogany because they fail to meet tonal requirements. I think there is a page in the tdpri thread where this is a picture of shaped necks and bodies burning in a bonfire.
wow..that's real quality control for me. if that doesn't convince anyone about the talent and experience of Gil, i don't know what will.
an excerpt from his mission found on his site:
"I try to use the absolute best materials, tools and skills combined into a long process with super high attention to details. It starts with my unique 'Tuning Forks' wood selection method and ends with a massive final setup to ensure the best possible quality and playability."
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 12, 2010, 10:29:34 AM
For pickups, its less voicing for me but more of pick attack and harmonic sustain characteristics. The amp plays a way much greater role on voicing than pickups.
And I quote Gil Yaron from my previous post:
"Gil:I got that video. Note that Jimmy's #1 is a little on the bright side. He uses the vol and tone knobs a lot and sets the amp to round its "roughness"... + he plays like Jimmy Page (-; "
sure you can quote him on that, that's the character of the sound, were-as pickups you can eq it..either way since you wanted that sound 'from the it might get loud' blu ray right? gil can make it as good as he can but still the client is no jimmy page..
Quote
In fact, guitar speakers are way way more important than pickups.
lets put this to light, cause some might misinterpret this as pickups dont matter what matters is the amp, pickup sensitivity and response do matter no two differently voiced pickups sound the same on the same amp, thats all i meant..if you think it doesnt might as well wound them blindfolded..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: jbarot on October 12, 2010, 10:39:45 AM
Its his secret. But what we can ascertain is that his wood is so select, he burns and carves into toys tons of Honduran Mahogany because they fail to meet tonal requirements. I think there is a page in the tdpri thread where this is a picture of shaped necks and bodies burning in a bonfire.
while his selection process is admirable, i think its irresponsible to just burn tonewood, esp if its a species thats soon to be banned from harvesting by CITES, a species like honduran mahogany. i don't mean to preach or make this thread sour, but a luthier (or any woodworker) should respect and realize that wood is a very limited resource, and burning tons of planks just because they do not sound right is just plain wrong. he could just sell them, describing them as "rejects or sub-standard" grade.
i hope its not true...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: imarco on October 12, 2010, 10:58:28 AM
after seeing gil's work i felt my gibsons and mia fenders are crap. . .why!!!!!!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 12, 2010, 11:07:13 AM
sure you can quote him on that, that's the character of the sound, were-as pickups you can eq it..either way since you wanted that sound 'from the it might get loud' blu ray right? gil can make it as good as he can but still the client is no jimmy page..
lets put this to light, cause some might misinterpret this as pickups dont matter what matters is the amp, pickup sensitivity and response do matter no two differently voiced pickups sound the same on the same amp, thats all i meant..if you think it doesnt might as well wound them blindfolded..
+1.
From the horse's mouth (page 1 of TDPRI thread at that):
"I find this important to mention because building a burst without a correct set of pu's has no point TMHO. It will be like a 64 Mustang with a new Toyota engine. I had the same issue with the pre-CBS pu's duplication that I posted here a few times... gotta have the right sounding pu's for those golden era instruments... it's simply a must." - Gil Yaron
IMHO, for electric guitar the tone factor hierarchy in order of descending importance or contribution is like this (all other things being equal): 1. pickups, incl. other gtr electronics 2. amp 3. construction and/or setup 4. wood
I believe doing a test by changing one component at a time, all other things being equal, will demonstrate this. In reality however, there is an interaction between these components that is hard to always predict or design for. The guitar can interact w/ certain pus to boost, attentuate, or cancel frequencies, as the gtr+pu can with amps, etc.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 12, 2010, 11:22:26 AM
IMHO, the tone factor hierarchy in order of descending importance or contribution is like this (all other things being equal): - pickups, incl. other gtr electronics - amp - construction and/or setup - wood
Joric, is wood really of the least importance in the tonal hierarchy for electrics?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 12, 2010, 11:26:49 AM
From the horse's mouth (page 1 of TDPRI thread at that):
"I find this important to mention because building a burst without a correct set of pu's has no point TMHO. It will be like a 64 Mustang with a new Toyota engine. I had the same issue with the pre-CBS pu's duplication that I posted here a few times... gotta have the right sounding pu's for those golden era instruments... it's simply a must." - Gil Yaron
IMHO, the tone factor hierarchy in order of descending importance or contribution is like this (all other things being equal): - pickups, incl. other gtr electronics - amp - construction and/or setup - wood
I believe doing a test of changing one component, all other things being equal, will demonstrate this.
@delta, coincidence much? being an observer with Gil's strat builds..he's picky with pickups..
@maxi..solidbody electrics..they are important but not to describe the tone just by 'wood specie alone'..comfort weight...reliability of the material,quality of the material..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 12, 2010, 11:44:16 AM
@maxi..solidbody electrics..they are important but not to describe the tone just by 'wood specie alone'..comfort weight...reliability of the material,quality of the material..
ah yup solidbody electrics..hmmmmm this is what i was asking from the get-go coz i'm not sure how it's being done for solidbody electrics. my background is mainly acoustics and they can determine response thru tap tone. my question on how response gets determined in a solidbody, considering that the wood is too thick to produce tap tone, is still unanswered (or a luthiery secret as Alex mentioned).
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 12, 2010, 12:02:54 PM
ah yup solidbody electrics..hmmmmm this is what i was asking from the get-go coz i'm not sure how it's being done for solidbody electrics. my background is mainly acoustics and they can determine response thru tap tone. my question on how response gets determined in a solidbody, considering that the wood is too thick to produce tap tone, is still unanswered (or a luthiery secret as Alex mentioned).
bryan beat me to it. yes, i was referring to electric guitars only. (i should edit my post, before it bites back). as fellow acoustic junkies, we both know it's a different story for acoustic guitars, and there's a thread for that kind of discussion so let's keep it there. ;-) suffice to say for now that the type of wood used in electric guitar bodies have much less effect on the sound of the instrument than pus, amps, and setup IMHO. that's why it's a big deal if the builder can mix and match wood and fine tune towards a certain sound thru the pus, and if the player knows how to select the right amp and tweak all of that gear to get the final tonal output, etc.
but re how response and tone is determined for solidbodies, i think some posts above already answer that, incl. quotes from Gil. the question is whether the answer satisfies you. ;-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bklixuz on October 12, 2010, 12:17:02 PM
this thread reminds me of what I have read last night on the bass forum. though its kinda off topic pero I think maka relate din tau :)
http://www.jz63.com/bass/rants.html#nut
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 12, 2010, 12:31:07 PM
bryan beat me to it. yes, i was referring to electric guitars only. (i should edit my post, before it bites back). as fellow acoustic junkies, we both know it's a different story for acoustic guitars, and there's a thread for that kind of discussion so let's keep it there. ;-) suffice to say for now that electric guitar bodies have much less effect on the sound of the instrument. that's why it's a big deal if the builder can fine tune towards a certain sound thru the pus, and if the player knows how to select the right amp and tweak all of that gear to get the final tonal output, etc.
but re how response and tone is determined for solidbodies, i think some posts above already answer that, incl. quotes from Gil. the question is whether the answer satisfies you. ;-)
i'm still a bit skeptical since most of my knowledge is still theoretical due to lack of actual experience. :lol:
like this thing about the wood, if it does not have a significant effect on the sound of the final product, then why do most electric guitar luthiers (Gil included) consider getting the "best wood" foremost on their list? if pickups are the most important for great tone, they should just focus on making the "best pickups" or pickups that is most suited to their client's needs, not one that will complement the initial characteristics of the wood.
sorry if i'm raising too many questions. i just want to learn more. just let me know if i'm already bugging you guys and i'll stop. :lol:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 12, 2010, 01:27:46 PM
i'm still a bit skeptical since most of my knowledge is still theoretical due to lack of actual experience. :lol:
like this thing about the wood, if it does not have a significant effect on the sound of the final product, then why do most electric guitar luthiers (Gil included) consider getting the "best wood" foremost on their list? if pickups are the most important for great tone, they should just focus on making the "best pickups" or pickups that is most suited to their client's needs, not one that will complement the initial characteristics of the wood.
sorry if i'm raising too many questions. i just want to learn more. just let me know if i'm already bugging you guys and i'll stop. :lol:
not bugging at all. i'm no expert but i only learned by asking difficult questions too.
btw, i didn't say wood does not have significant impact tonally. i'm just saying others will have greater impact.
"best wood" in terms of the 59 replica build or Alex's build? in either case, i understand (correct me if am wrong) appearance was the primary consideration. tonally any piece of wood can be balanced out by other pieces of wood (eg, bright maple cap vs warmer body, maple neck w/ alder body, etc.) as well as the pickup. another consideration in choosing wood is weight (generally speaking), specially going by prevailing theory that lighter LPs sound best.
there's a logic also in the sequence of the build and final tone tweaking: it's easier to tweak or replace the pickup to match the wood than it is to replace the wood to match the pickup. hence, wood, albeit not the foremost determinant of final tone, is the starting point as the customer will have already specified his specs in terms of look and construction.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: jellogz on October 12, 2010, 01:32:50 PM
not bugging at all. i'm no expert but i only learned by asking difficult questions too.
"best wood" in terms of the 59 replica build or Alex's build? in either case, i understand (correct me if am wrong) appearance was the primary consideration. tonally any piece of wood can be balanced out by other pieces of wood (eg, bright maple cap vs warmer body) as well as the pickup. another consideration in choosing wood is weight (generally speaking), specially going by prevailing theory that lighter LPs sound best.
Chambered or not?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: vhunter on October 12, 2010, 01:43:54 PM
sure you can quote him on that, that's the character of the sound, were-as pickups you can eq it..either way since you wanted that sound 'from the it might get loud' blu ray right? gil can make it as good as he can but still the client is no jimmy page..
(If you read the discussion again, the priority was and is what Gil thinks the best bursts sound like. The only reason I picked the IT MIGHT GET LOUD track is that I have a Blue ray edition on a HIFI system. For me, thats the most unadulterated high resolution les paul sound. Now if I get lucky enough, if Jimmy Page gets to try my guitar and he says its better than his 58 than I will be happy even though I am no Jimmy Page :))
lets put this to light, cause some might misinterpret this as pickups dont matter what matters is the amp, pickup sensitivity and response do matter no two differently voiced pickups sound the same on the same amp, thats all i meant..if you think it doesnt might as well wound them blindfolded..
(You can adjust to compensate with the amps eq controls -- for amps with EQ controls. But pickups, no EQ adjustment other than height. But as I said before, I select pickups for pick attack and its sustain characteristics on the ADSR envelope. Timbre is of secondary importance to me. Way far down the line for the process of selection.)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: imarco on October 12, 2010, 01:56:39 PM
i'm so curious. . .how much will the build be?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 12, 2010, 02:11:38 PM
not bugging at all. i'm no expert but i only learned by asking difficult questions too.
btw, i didn't say wood does not have significant impact tonally. i'm just saying others will have greater impact.
"best wood" in terms of the 59 replica build or Alex's build? in either case, i understand (correct me if am wrong) appearance was the primary consideration. tonally any piece of wood can be balanced out by other pieces of wood (eg, bright maple cap vs warmer body, maple neck w/ alder body, etc.) as well as the pickup. another consideration in choosing wood is weight (generally speaking), specially going by prevailing theory that lighter LPs sound best.
there's a logic also in the sequence of the build and final tone tweaking: it's easier to tweak or replace the pickup to match the wood than it is to replace the wood to match the pickup. hence, wood, albeit not the foremost determinant of final tone, is the starting point as the customer will have already specified his specs in terms of look and construction.
so it's appearance first and foremost..hence the initial posts in this thread with the photos of the top woods. then weight...hence the following discussions between Gil and Alex.
now i'm learning. come to think of it, it's somewhat similar to acoustic building (wood grading, grain pattern, etc) in a sense that better aesthetics = more expensive.
thanks a lot Joric! i shall keep following this thread to enhance knowledge. :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: marcus_gloom on October 12, 2010, 03:02:25 PM
so it's appearance first and foremost..hence the initial posts in this thread with the photos of the top woods. then weight...hence the following discussions between Gil and Alex.
now i'm learning. come to think of it, it's somewhat similar to acoustic building (wood grading, grain pattern, etc) in a sense that better aesthetics = more expensive.
Let me qualify further, as long as the builder has the skills to select wood that he can mix and match to get to a certain tonal zone, yes he can take the liberty of choosing woods based first on appearance and weight as per the customer's request. He can add the complementary pieces of wood and electronic elements later in order to get in that 'zone'.
For acoustics, IMO wood grading and grain pattern contribute directly to tone AS WELL AS looks, hence they are mutually reinforcing objectives. But aside from the top, there's also the body type, size, back and side woods, neck wood, construction (eg, bracing!), and setup contributing to final tone, as you already know.
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thanks a lot Joric! i shall keep following this thread to enhance knowledge. :-D
thanks too because answering questions helps crystallize thoughts and theories, thus enhancing learning. but i'm here to learn, also eager to learn. i'm sure the guitar will be an epic build by a master craftsman but talking about the process helps us all enhance our knowledge of guitar. kuddos to Alex for sharing this experience and exchanges w/ Gil, from which we will all benefit (including, hopefully, Arie so that local customers will benefit in the future).
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 12, 2010, 06:06:15 PM
while his selection process is admirable, i think its irresponsible to just burn tonewood, esp if its a species thats soon to be banned from harvesting by CITES, a species like honduran mahogany. i don't mean to preach or make this thread sour, but a luthier (or any woodworker) should respect and realize that wood is a very limited resource, and burning tons of planks just because they do not sound right is just plain wrong. he could just sell them, describing them as "rejects or sub-standard" grade.
(That would not be honest. Since he purchased the wood, he has every right to do what he wants with it. Even if he decides to grill lamb with it. But I am with him on this, burning it is just better than having to store it and pass it off for seconds. Unfortunately, dito sa pinas pagpeperahan pang ang reject parang maging custom guitar which I think is dishonest.)
i hope its not true...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 12, 2010, 06:07:52 PM
while his selection process is admirable, i think its irresponsible to just burn tonewood, esp if its a species thats soon to be banned from harvesting by CITES, a species like honduran mahogany. i don't mean to preach or make this thread sour, but a luthier (or any woodworker) should respect and realize that wood is a very limited resource, and burning tons of planks just because they do not sound right is just plain wrong. he could just sell them, describing them as "rejects or sub-standard" grade.
i hope its not true...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Bolt Thrower on October 12, 2010, 06:13:08 PM
^he could've just sold it to wood carvers and furniture makers. it's a complete waste of resource imho. sure, he had every right to do what he wanted. but wasting was never a responsible act.
but it is true, some "luthiers" here just take ANY fukkin wood and make them as "guitars". The quality check some of them do baffles me. Or if they do any...that is.
anyhow, good luck on the build. i hope it becomes what you are looking for.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: r_chino18 on October 12, 2010, 06:15:51 PM
From the horse's mouth (page 1 of TDPRI thread at that):
"I find this important to mention because building a burst without a correct set of pu's has no point TMHO. It will be like a 64 Mustang with a new Toyota engine. I had the same issue with the pre-CBS pu's duplication that I posted here a few times... gotta have the right sounding pu's for those golden era instruments... it's simply a must." - Gil Yaron
IMHO, for electric guitar the tone factor hierarchy in order of descending importance or contribution is like this (all other things being equal): 1. pickups, incl. other gtr electronics 2. amp 3. construction and/or setup 4. wood
I believe doing a test by changing one component at a time, all other things being equal, will demonstrate this. In reality however, there is an interaction between these components that is hard to always predict or design for. The guitar can interact w/ certain pus to boost, attentuate, or cancel frequencies, as the gtr+pu can with amps, etc.
I think we should not take out of context what was meant by the horse:
Gil: I plan to use "average" 59 tone for your build. Not too compressed and not too fat. This way I'll be able to tweek the final tonal footprint with the PAF's.
It is very obvious that GY starts with the wood first and finally tweaks with his own PAFs. What Gil, as I understood, meant was that there can be no burst without a good PAF. On the other hand, it does not mean that the guitar will sound bad or less than extraordinary without PAFs. MASKI NA LAGYAN KO NG TUNAY NA PAFs ITONG BUILD NA ITO, KUNG WALA SA KAHOY WALA PA RIN TUNOG BURST.
Personally, my ranking of factors would be opposite of deltaslim. I have heard Japanese made Guitars witch cheap pickups beat some US vintage guitars with U.S. pickups whether stock or boutique but I have yet to hear a bad sounding guitar (in terms of wood) be improved by pickups. Sabi nga ni Duncan, parang microphone and pickup. Kung wala sa singer iyan, maski na anong microphone ilagay mo hindi pa rin gaganda ang boses ng singer.
Just for the record, throughout the build, I and Gil talk more about wood than pickups. It was only last Sunday he mentioned about pickups and we resolved it last night. But until now, we are still talking about the mahogany to be used for the guitar. If you look at the TDPRI thread, Gil has a theory that the maple top is more important than the backing mahogany because everything is mounted on the maple top.
Again to quote Gil on his Maple tops,
"Every piece of maple is different regardless of its geographical origin. Eastern maple is usually densier and heavier but I got some light ones as well. Western is more common and much easier to find with flamed figuring but the Western tops I have are very dense and exceptionally figured (they are all exhibition grade). S4 is waiting to be carved on a killer 59 Burst since... well 1959 or so... LOL You can see the old and yellowed billet before it was cut. I managed to get only 4 usable tops out of it and S4 is the last one. You can see S2 and S3 in the attached photos... one is book matched and the other is flitch matched. Alex, all the tops will sound and look great... you don't have to spend $1500 to get there... S4 is great, no doubt, but the biggest advantage of it is that you'll be able to say it's a real old Michigan Eastern Maple chunk of wood from the 50's which is as close as you can get to the real thing. It doesn't tap louder or deeper than the others..."
With Gil, you get the feeling that his wood stock has been thoroughly auditioned and tested as if he had already separated the best sounding pieces -- best of the Honduran Mahogany, the best of the African Mahogany, the best of Brazilian Rosewood, the Best of the Red Michigan Eastern Maple, etc.. So whatever he presents to you has already been selected unlike other luthiers specially in the philippines who just use any piece of a species for a guitar wood.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: jbarot on October 12, 2010, 07:11:02 PM
i'm pretty sure its a misunderstanding on my part. i haven't even seen the picture in question and here i am babbling away :-D
i'm pretty sure that the woods he was burning are beyond any use. and they do make grilled meats tastier! i'm sure he's sensible, because no luthier (or any woodworker) would ever carelessly destroy valuable resource needlessly. it is frowned upon by fellow luthiers from all over and some vendors would even refuse to sell wood to careless luthiers. that respect for wood is what i admire from them.
hindi lang dito sa pinas ang dishonest labeling. buyer beware! my point is that if the wood is not up to a luthier's snuff, one man's garbage is another man's gold, pass it on to someone who will use it. he may even cut it up as other guitar parts (kerfing, end blocks, laminates, jig parts, etc) so his design won't be copied. i don't see anything wrong with selling substandard, structurally compromised or even green wood as long as the seller informs the buyer properly. buyer beware again.
its just too bad that honduran mahogany can't shed tears like pandas. hehehe i'm sure many would be up in arms if someone buys a panda or a philippine eagle and then decides to cook it for a party. and if he uses the reason "its my money" i'm sure it won't fly because the ethical consequences are more glaring, and IMO both flora and fauna bear equal weight when it comes to this issue.
still i would want to see and hear the guitar! i'm still excited! and his guitars do look soooo good...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 12, 2010, 07:24:08 PM
(If you read the discussion again, the priority was and is what Gil thinks the best bursts sound like. The only reason I picked the IT MIGHT GET LOUD track is that I have a Blue ray edition on a HIFI system. For me, thats the most unadulterated high resolution les paul sound. Now if I get lucky enough, if Jimmy Page gets to try my guitar and he says its better than his 58 than I will be happy even though I am no Jimmy Page Smiley)
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(You can adjust to compensate with the amps eq controls -- for amps with EQ controls.
not always, you can change the tone with the eq control, when its a sucky pickup..its a sucky pickup..no amp can massage that..if it doesnt capture the sound right, i dont think no amp can 'adjust' that
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But pickups, no EQ adjustment other than height. But as I said before, I select pickups for pick attack and its sustain characteristics on the ADSR envelope.
pickups are pre-adjusted just like your speakers..they need the eq to help out, but they should be 'voiced' right when its done..the eq enhances the characteristics of the amp..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 12, 2010, 07:37:50 PM
I think we should not take out of context what was meant by the horse:
i dont think he was taken out of context on what joric posted, 'GY' likes specifics..if he didnt he wouldnt even care on the type of 'binding' he uses..
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Gil: I plan to use "average" 59 tone for your build. Not too compressed and not too fat. This way I'll be able to tweek the final tonal footprint with the PAF's.
It is very obvious that GY starts with the wood first and finally tweaks with his own PAFs. What Gil, as I understood, meant was that there can be no burst without a good PAF. On the other hand, it does not mean that the guitar will sound bad or less than extraordinary without PAFs. MASKI NA LAGYAN KO NG TUNAY NA PAFs ITONG BUILD NA ITO, KUNG WALA SA KAHOY WALA PA RIN TUNOG BURST.
i especially isnt doubting GY, but most likely his client that they hardly know what they want..or the reference material is a blu-ray disc sound(with post production..)
client: ima wana sound like that
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I have heard Japanese made Guitars witch cheap pickups beat some US vintage guitars with U.S. pickups whether stock or boutique but I have yet to hear a bad sounding guitar (in terms of wood) be improved by pickups.
what is a cheap japanese pickup?
Quote
Sabi nga ni Duncan, parang microphone and pickup. Kung wala sa singer iyan, maski na anong microphone ilagay mo hindi pa rin gaganda ang boses ng singer.
pickup is indeed a microphone, but to a whole a guitar is the guitarist's microphone..it captures the not only the vibrating string and the guitar tone..but the tone/sound of the musician playing it..tools for a greater whole..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 12, 2010, 07:50:59 PM
i especially isnt doubting GY, but most likely his client that they hardly know what they want..or the reference material is a blu-ray disc sound(with post production..)
client: ima wana sound like that
bry, i think this is going a little bit overboard since we're talking about the guitar and the build on this thread. :-)
anyway, there's also nothing wrong with having a solid reference tone for a guitar build. at least the luthier has a basis on what the client wants in terms of tonal output...the blue ray disc recording is a good source and i think "hearing" what the final output will sound like is better than "reading" it from descriptions from the client himself.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 12, 2010, 08:07:52 PM
^he could've just sold it to wood carvers and furniture makers. it's a complete waste of resource imho. sure, he had every right to do what he wanted. but wasting was never a responsible act.
+1 i'm sure there are better uses for that wood? even wooden toys would have been ok. but firewood?
... Sabi nga ni Duncan, parang microphone and pickup.
Won't nitpick anymore on all the other stuff but will just say that if recording engineers heard this statement they might react. Record engineers regularly choose mics based on their 'voice'/flavor and tonal characteristics to complement the voice (or guitar sound) they are recording, much the same way we choose speakers for our amps.
... Kung wala sa singer iyan, maski na anong microphone ilagay mo hindi pa rin gaganda ang boses ng singer.
I am living proof this is not always true cuz, for the life of me, I can never understand how my voice can be bearable in a live gig or recording if not for a nice mic and timpla by the sound guy! LOL. Thank you SM58!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 12, 2010, 08:12:56 PM
not always, you can change the tone with the eq control, when its a sucky pickup..its a sucky pickup..no amp can massage that..if it doesnt capture the sound right, i dont think no amp can 'adjust' that
pickups are pre-adjusted just like your speakers..they need the eq to help out, but they should be 'voiced' right when its done..the eq enhances the characteristics of the amp..
Ohh, the good amps can change the sucky pickup's timbre. But of course a good amp still cannot change pick attack.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 12, 2010, 08:16:11 PM
bry, i think this is going a little bit overboard since we're talking about the guitar and the build on this thread. :-)
anyway, there's also nothing wrong with having a solid reference tone for a guitar build. at least the luthier has a basis on what the client wants in terms of tonal output...the blue ray disc recording is a good source and i think "hearing" what the final output will sound like is better than "reading" it from descriptions from the client himself.
i was talking about the build, GY's build..but the alex concept or perception is the thing i was questioning..i call it clearing up misconception..to say GY's pickup choice doesnt matter because the build is 'too good sounding', been following GY strat and build and even the bridge he tooled himself to get it as accurate as possible to what they were back then..
my post on clients not knowing what they want is true, if you go to a master luthier like gill you think you knew well 'enough' to know what you want then you realize you hardly know at all..makes perfect sense, so then you just sit tight and enjoy the ride..
so it's appearance first and foremost..hence the initial posts in this thread with the photos of the top woods. then weight...hence the following discussions between Gil and Alex.
now i'm learning. come to think of it, it's somewhat similar to acoustic building (wood grading, grain pattern, etc) in a sense that better aesthetics = more expensive.
thanks a lot Joric! i shall keep following this thread to enhance knowledge. :-D
Partly true, my objective is to first and foremost build response and 'aliveness' in a Les Paul Guitar. Second is to ensure correct burst specification or get to be as close as it gets in terms of workmanship, materials, and look(better aesthetics). And Finally, get the timbre correct -- which is the least important factor for me.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 12, 2010, 08:23:01 PM
Let me qualify further, as long as the builder has the skills to select wood that he can mix and match to get to a certain tonal zone, yes he can take the liberty of choosing woods based first on appearance and weight as per the customer's request. He can add the complementary pieces of wood and electronic elements later in order to get in that 'zone'.
For acoustics, IMO wood grading and grain pattern contribute directly to tone AS WELL AS looks, hence they are mutually reinforcing objectives. But aside from the top, there's also the body type, size, back and side woods, neck wood, construction (eg, bracing!), and setup contributing to final tone, as you already know.
thanks too because answering questions helps crystallize thoughts and theories, thus enhancing learning. but i'm here to learn, also eager to learn. i'm sure the guitar will be an epic build by a master craftsman but talking about the process helps us all enhance our knowledge of guitar. kuddos to Alex for sharing this experience and exchanges w/ Gil, from which we will all benefit (including, hopefully, Arie so that local customers will benefit in the future).
Thanks but we are not out of the build yet... still around 355 more days to go. And I am more worried about response and the guitar being NOT dead.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 12, 2010, 08:25:11 PM
^he could've just sold it to wood carvers and furniture makers. it's a complete waste of resource imho. sure, he had every right to do what he wanted. but wasting was never a responsible act.
but it is true, some "luthiers" here just take ANY fukkin wood and make them as "guitars". The quality check some of them do baffles me. Or if they do any...that is.
anyhow, good luck on the build. i hope it becomes what you are looking for.
Thanks... By the way, imagine all that wasted wood in JB and RJ on low quality guitars that do not sound great because of poor wood selection that should have been furniture instead. Les Pu anyone? I think they are more guilty because they try to make money off beginners who don't know any better. Actually for the Honduran Mahogany that does not pass Gil, he carves them into toys to give away to his daughter and his daughter's friends. The bad wood already carved as guitar bodies and necks and burnt.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 12, 2010, 08:38:40 PM
Thanks but we are not out of the build yet... still around 355 more days to go. And I am more worried about response and the guitar being NOT dead.
I doubt he'll let a dead guitar leave his shop let alone reach the hands of a customer and potentially be heard by the world. He'd rather start from scratch. That's just the way he is -- honest, meticulous and OC. Plus he has a great rep from building great guitars -- there's very high probability he'll get it right, as he has already done in the past.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 12, 2010, 08:43:13 PM
i was talking about the build, GY's build..but the alex concept or perception is the thing i was questioning..i call it clearing up misconception..to say GY's pickup choice doesnt matter because the build is 'too good sounding', been following GY strat and build and even the bridge he tooled himself to get it as accurate as possible to what they were back then..
(As I said, I would be happy to marry response and aliveness with a true burst replica. If I needed accuracty I would just spend my money on a burst which is not a too far possibility in the near future but I know that there are only a number of bursts that have response and are alive sounding. So, whether that special good looking burst with response will be available is anybody's guess. But for this build, I am not giving a priority to the PAFs. I could decide to buy real PAFs and take the chance that they sound better than Gil's or I could make a mistake. I could even put EMGs on it. Or another set of Bareknuckles or try out Tom Holmes or Throbaks -- stuff you never do on real bursts.)
my post on clients not knowing what they want is true, if you go to a master luthier like gill you think you knew well 'enough' to know what you want then you realize you hardly know at all..makes perfect sense, so then you just sit tight and enjoy the ride..
(I know what I want and I couldn't care any more or less with the pickups... if they sound great in all applications -- which is what Gil is trying to do, then the pickups stay. I did fail to clarify that I just have a simple need -- To find an Aesthetically correct Les Paul guitar with a beautiful top with the correct woods -- alive sounding with response.)
characteristics, but cannot 'improve' a pickups response..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on October 12, 2010, 09:31:42 PM
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To find an Aesthetically correct Les Paul guitar with a beautiful top with the correct woods
this i can dig,
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 12, 2010, 09:55:31 PM
i like this demo. shows the whole spectrum from clean - light drive - heavy drive in all pickup positions.
feature=player_embedded#at=195
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: dirazon on October 13, 2010, 03:09:57 AM
On a separate note, yes I have noticed that the good old LP's really do sound tele-ish. Although youtube isn't the best source to verify this, the characteristic sound is pretty audible ...
I noticed the tele-ish sound too! Akala ko ako lang yun nag iisip nun. Try listening to Page on Zep albums before the mods on his 59. He sometimes sound like he was using a tele when recording with Les Pauls and what makes it more weird is sometimes he sounds like he was using a Les Paul when recording with Tele.
Eto mga nakuha ko sa konting research
Here is an interview with Page. (1977)
What kind of guitar were you suing on the first Led Zeppelin album? JP: A Telecaster. I used the Les Paul with the Yardbirds on about two numbers and a Fender for the rest. You see the Les Paul Custom had a central setting, a kind of out-of-phase pickup sound which Jeff couldn’t get on his Les Paul, so I used mine for that.
Was the Telecaster the one Beck gave to you? JP: Yes. There was work done on it but only afterwards. I painted it; everyone painted their guitars in those days. And I had reflective plastic sheeting underneath the pick guard that gives rainbow colors.
It sounds exactly like a Les Paul. JP: Yeah, well that’s the amp and everything. You see, I could get a lot of tones out of the guitar, which you normally couldn’t. This confusion goes back to those early sessions again with the Les Paul. Those might not sound like a Les Paul, but that’s what I used. It’s just different amps, mike placings, and all different things. Also, if you just crank it up to the distortion point so you can sustain notes, it’s bound to sound like a Les Paul. I was using the Supro amp for the first album and still do.
Sorry medyo OT :)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: analog.matt on October 13, 2010, 05:12:32 AM
i'm pretty sure its a misunderstanding on my part. i haven't even seen the picture in question and here i am babbling away :-D
i'm pretty sure that the woods he was burning are beyond any use. and they do make grilled meats tastier! i'm sure he's sensible, because no luthier (or any woodworker) would ever carelessly destroy valuable resource needlessly. it is frowned upon by fellow luthiers from all over and some vendors would even refuse to sell wood to careless luthiers. that respect for wood is what i admire from them.
hindi lang dito sa pinas ang dishonest labeling. buyer beware! my point is that if the wood is not up to a luthier's snuff, one man's garbage is another man's gold, pass it on to someone who will use it. he may even cut it up as other guitar parts (kerfing, end blocks, laminates, jig parts, etc) so his design won't be copied. i don't see anything wrong with selling substandard, structurally compromised or even green wood as long as the seller informs the buyer properly. buyer beware again.
its just too bad that honduran mahogany can't shed tears like pandas. hehehe i'm sure many would be up in arms if someone buys a panda or a philippine eagle and then decides to cook it for a party. and if he uses the reason "its my money" i'm sure it won't fly because the ethical consequences are more glaring, and IMO both flora and fauna bear equal weight when it comes to this issue.
still i would want to see and hear the guitar! i'm still excited! and his guitars do look soooo good...
It's his decision. respect na lang natin.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 13, 2010, 08:27:24 AM
this thread reminds me of what I have read last night on the bass forum. though its kinda off topic pero I think maka relate din tau :)
http://www.jz63.com/bass/rants.html#nut
I think the great thing with Gil IS HE CAN TELL WHAT IS IMPORTANT AND WHAT IS NOT. With regards to nuts, he uses nylon like the original bursts. On the TDPRI thread, Gil prototypes an all steel ABR versus a prototype 'pot metal' ABR and he chooses the pot metal ABR. He makes his own pickup rings because of better sound transference copying the original -- don't believe it? Check out the Gil Yaron video on youtube where he shows the difference between pickup rings.
On the other hand, Gil is frank when he says that the Holy veneer will not make an audible difference and he orders his PAF base plates from mojotone because they can get it right.
The difference I believe versus the guy in the bass forum is that Gil does hear things we don't or we don't even care to go into details because of our ignorance. So, I suggest you read his 102 page TDPRI article on a Les Paul build to get the correct context of the difficulty of building a Les Paul.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on October 13, 2010, 08:45:04 AM
I think the great thing with Gil IS HE CAN TELL WHAT IS IMPORTANT AND WHAT IS NOT. With regards to nuts, he uses nylon like the original bursts. On the TDPRI, the prototypes an all steel ABR versus a prototype 'pot metal' ABR and chooses the pot metal ABR. He makes his own pickup rings because of better sound transference copying the original -- don't believe it? Check out the Gil Yaron video on youtube where he shows the difference between pickup rings.
On the other hand, Gil is frank when he says that the Holy veneer will not make an audible difference and he orders his PAF base plates from mojotone because they can get it right.
The difference I believe versus the guy in the bass forum is that Gil does hear things we don't or we don't even care to go into details because of our ignorance. So, I suggest you read his 102 page TDPRI article on a Les Paul build to get the correct context of the difficulty of building a Les Paul.
only one way to find out, let him take blind tests too, if he will take it.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: vhunter on October 13, 2010, 09:43:52 AM
only one way to find out, let him take blind tests too, if he will take it.
Isn't that sort of turning him into a circus animal? I don't think its proper to have guys at that level of the game "have" to prove their skills. At the end of the day, if he's built great guitars.. thats what counts. BTW, I've never played a GY and am a little hesitant because there are not enough of his guitars out there.. and there is no "internet opinion". I am keeping an open mind though because Cliff C does know his s#it (by opening me up to some killer builders) and if he says GY knows what hes doing... he MOST LIKELY (but im not sure) does. Thats pretty much why Im gonna be following this thread for the next 353 days! Hahaha
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 13, 2010, 09:49:19 AM
Isn't that sort of turning him into a circus animal? I don't think its proper to have guys at that level of the game "have" to prove their skills. At the end of the day, if he's built great guitars.. thats what counts.
+1. a luthier in the level of GY no longer needs blind tests to prove his talent in luthiery.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 13, 2010, 09:59:18 AM
Isn't that sort of turning him into a circus animal? I don't think its proper to have guys at that level of the game "have" to prove their skills. At the end of the day, if he's built great guitars.. thats what counts. BTW, I've never played a GY and am a little hesitant because there are not enough of his guitars out there.. and there is no "internet opinion". I am keeping an open mind though because Cliff C does know his s#it (by opening me up to some killer builders) and if he says GY knows what hes doing... he MOST LIKELY (but im not sure) does. Thats pretty much why Im gonna be following this thread for the next 353 days! Hahaha
thats why i said, if he would take it.
im just a believer of tests to prove ones capacity. not doubting him though.
just a professional skepticism (i neither believe he's BS, nor he knows everything)
just my opinion though. my own thinking. and applies to anyone, well known or not.. because i wanna get the best out of what im paying for, especially for large sums of money involved.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 13, 2010, 10:45:54 AM
The difference I believe versus the guy in the bass forum is that Gil does hear things we don't or we don't even care to go into details because of our ignorance. So, I suggest you read his 102 page TDPRI article on a Les Paul build to get the correct context of the difficulty of building a Les Paul.
I'm just an observer but what I can see from Gil is what defines good luthiers from just those working off templates. I think most of us hear the same things but good luthiers hear more acutely. We/they hear the WHAT, which is empirical and can be described, perhaps some better than others. But Gil and great luthiers know WHY that resulting sound is produced and more importantly have the skills and knowledge HOW to design it in. This is where you separate the men from the boys.
If my sense of Gil is correct and he is consistently successful in his builds, then he is a true artisan.
Btw, experienced players gain lots of knowledge and acquire similar skills over time. They know WHAT sound they want or are hearing (timbre, eq elements, ASDR characteristics), they know WHY it sounds that way (and why it may be off the target tone), and HOW to fix or enhance it (EQing, right hand and left hand techniques, etc.) to achieve the target tone.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on October 13, 2010, 11:20:29 AM
I'm just an observer but what I can see from Gil is what defines good luthiers from just those working off templates. I think most of us hear the same things but good luthiers hear more acutely. We/they hear the WHAT, which is empirical and can be described, perhaps some better than others. But Gil and great luthiers know WHY that resulting sound is produced and more importantly have the skills and knowledge HOW to design it in. This is where you separate the men from the boys.
If my sense is correct, then he is a true artisan.
Btw, experienced players gain lots of knowledge and acquire similar skills. They know WHAT sound the want or are getting (timbre, eq elements, ASDR characteristics), WHY it sounds that way or now how they like it, and HOW to fix or enhance it (EQing, right hand and left hand techniques, etc.).
totally agree with this. for us musicians, the "tone in the head" is primarily acquired through experience and exposure to different situations. this is why there are some possibilities unique to more experienced players that are still IMpossibilities to the less experienced ones.
sometimes musicians (me included) can't really find the perfect words to describe the tone in their heads. effective media for conveyance are videos/soundclips of the artists you want your tone to be based on. although ultimately the guitar will still have the "player factor", very good luthiers can make the construction/specifications/inherent guitar tone as close to that sample as possible.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 13, 2010, 11:40:55 AM
I'm just an observer but what I can see from Gil is what defines good luthiers from just those working off templates. I think most of us hear the same things but good luthiers hear more acutely. We/they hear the WHAT, which is empirical and can be described, perhaps some better than others. But Gil and great luthiers know WHY that resulting sound is produced and more importantly have the skills and knowledge HOW to design it in. This is where you separate the men from the boys.
If my sense is correct, then he is a true artisan.
Btw, experienced players gain lots of knowledge and acquire similar skills. They know WHAT sound the want or are getting (timbre, eq elements, ASDR characteristics), WHY it sounds that way or now how they like it, and HOW to fix or enhance it (EQing, right hand and left hand techniques, etc.).
true.. maybe im just a risk averse guy who needs proof of some sort.. maybe a blind test really aint the kind of test to prove their capabilities..
either way, the TS has guts to take the $8k risk which may or may not satisfy him (he has high standards)..
but i bet if it doesnt meet his standards, the guitar would still be better built than most guitars..
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: vhunter on October 13, 2010, 01:51:59 PM
There is a very high degree of probability that you will be correct sir.. but it's not a guarantee.
yup, with millions (or just thousands, i dunno) of mass produced guitars from low end to high mid range guitars, compared with this guitar whose components are top of the line (including the builder), well thats a real high probability.
and now im gassing or an LP.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: free2rock on October 16, 2010, 03:32:11 PM
Whew! That was a long read... Haven't visited PM for a while now kasi. Hehehe
I was leaning towards Top E but after looking at the other shots of Top J, I agree with your choice. :-) Wow. It's a good thing you're financially blessed to afford buying one of these. Thanks for sharing this. This may be the closest I can get to experiencing tonequest of this level. :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: free2rock on October 16, 2010, 03:38:04 PM
Attached is a sample of the clean sound of a Gil Yaron Burst:
Take note that hindi pa boutique ang amp na gamit AND I belive that in terms of timbre/ EQ is just right for all those midrangey overdrive and distortion sound of my amps.
Sweet.
Sorry. Can't find a good enough word that doesn't make me sound like someone who can't understand 90% of the discussion here. (Which I really don't, I confess. Hahaha!)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: kawal on October 17, 2010, 08:52:36 PM
wow! i went through about 70 pages of GY's '59 build page and i am really amazed. i mean, who the hell creates a mold to replicate a vintage gibson pick-up ring when it's just $4.00 at stewmac. his specificity and attention to detail is sick! about my earlier question about wire gauge for winding, he uses an older leaded 42 or 43 AWG na hindi na manufactured ngayon dahil hindi na raw nilalagyan ng lead sa wire manufacturing. here's the thread, http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/194271-1959-les-paul-build.html
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: IncX on October 17, 2010, 09:43:53 PM
i personally believe that the quest for tone is possible in the $3K line ... things more than that, you are basically just paying for aesthetics and the name.
and yes, for the most part... it is very hard to go wrong with a well-known luthier asking for that price tag.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 18, 2010, 09:49:17 AM
wow! i went through about 70 pages of GY's '59 build page and i am really amazed. i mean, who the hell creates a mold to replicate a vintage gibson pick-up ring when it's just $4.00 at stewmac. his specificity and attention to detail is sick! about my earlier question about wire gauge for winding, he uses an older leaded 42 or 43 AWG na hindi na manufactured ngayon dahil hindi na raw nilalagyan ng lead sa wire manufacturing. here's the thread, http://www.tdpri.com/forum/tele-home-depot/194271-1959-les-paul-build.html
when i saw his earlier builds (bass, tele, strat), i thought he was very competent builder w/ great attention to detail. but maybe because bass, tele, strat are less complicated to build, including their pus, i didn't think too much of it. but when he started on that 59 LP -- a much more complicated instrument, sharing his knowledge and skills on wood, metal, electronics, construction, paintjobs, etc., i was transfixed and speechless. i was especially blown away by his generosity in sharing so much info that most luthiers would probably keep as trade secrets.
when the dust settled i finally had the gumption to ask him a question that has bugged me ever since i started playing LPs: how to get that Peter Green LP tone (and not just the out-of-phase thingy, i already know how to do that). for me, i think it is the holy grail tone really worth crusading for. if i will ever save up for that much money towards a guitar (assuming my family is taken cared of already), it would be with this kind of guy towards that kind of guitar. sana tumama na lang ako ng lotto para mas mabilis. :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on October 18, 2010, 09:58:43 AM
i was especially blown away by his generosity in sharing so much info that most luthiers would probably keep as trade secrets.
yes. bilib ako dahil napaka-generous nga nya at thoughtful sa pagsagot sa mga inquiries. his enthusiasm and dedication to this 59 build would really push you na basahin yung thread nya kahit sooobrang haba.
when the dust settled i finally had the gumption to ask him a question that has bugged me ever since i started playing LPs: how to get that Peter Green LP tone (and not just the out-of-phase thingy, i already know how to do that).
joric, i think (though im not sure) peter green used his 59 LP for his "Greeny" jazz/blues instrumental. it's one of the tracks sa Through the Years album ni John Mayall. swabe yung tone nun.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: analog.matt on October 19, 2010, 05:26:22 AM
when the dust settled i finally had the gumption to ask him a question that has bugged me ever since i started playing LPs: how to get that Peter Green LP tone (and not just the out-of-phase thingy, i already know how to do that). for me, i think it is the holy grail tone really worth crusading for. if i will ever save up for that much money towards a guitar (assuming my family is taken cared of already), it would be with this kind of guy towards that kind of guitar. sana tumama na lang ako ng lotto para mas mabilis. :-)
Sir, what was his reply to your question? can you share it with us?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 19, 2010, 08:38:31 AM
yes. bilib ako dahil napaka-generous nga nya at thoughtful sa pagsagot sa mga inquiries. his enthusiasm and dedication to this 59 build would really push you na basahin yung thread nya kahit sooobrang haba. joric, i think (though im not sure) peter green used his 59 LP for his "Greeny" jazz/blues instrumental. it's one of the tracks sa Through the Years album ni John Mayall. swabe yung tone nun.
With all due respect, I don't think that's the benchmark era or PG tone. PG and his LP made their legend mostly for his work w/ Fleetwood Mac, from the time he co-founded it in the late 60s to 1970, when he left the band.
Sir, what was his reply to your question? can you share it with us?
pakitignan na lang dun sa tdpri thread, altho some were PM exchanges. sorry - OT na kung discuss pa dito. this is alex's thread and i believe a discussion of the builder himself, not other people's tonequest. :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: vegetablejoe on October 19, 2010, 09:27:54 AM
...Btw, experienced players gain lots of knowledge and acquire similar skills over time. They know WHAT sound they want or are hearing (timbre, eq elements, ASDR characteristics), they know WHY it sounds that way (and why it may be off the target tone), and HOW to fix or enhance it (EQing, right hand and left hand techniques, etc.) to achieve the target tone.
perhaps you mean "compensate?"
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on October 19, 2010, 09:43:32 AM
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on November 09, 2010, 05:50:02 AM
I just wanted to add more detail to Gil's wood selection process which I got from tdpri and highlight that more than anything wood selection is the most important.
Quote from Gil: I'll discuss the lefty build in length soon enough but something happened today that made me want to share some of the wood selection and tests which are performed before any build. TMHO, wood selection is the single most important stage of a build. It starts with acquiring the right lumber, sometimes years before it's being used on an instrument, drying, cutting, more drying and finally it's in the size of a blank which is dry enough and stable for the build. Nothing new there of course... but the next step is where things get much more interesting. Experience is a bless when selecting a piece of wood in order to get a target tone and I will not get into details about this, but in general there are a few things to consider:
For a given specie at a given size:
1) Weight (mass): more mass = more sustain, more treble, less midrange, clearer low end (in one word, "punchy"). Less mass = blurry lows, more midrange, less treble, less sustain (in one word, "warm").
2) Cut orientation: Quartered = slightly rounder tone , Slab=more "open" tone
3) Grain: even straight grain is easier to "read" as far as tone expectations while swirly and "crazy" grain has a higher tendency to surprise...(sometimes in a very good way)
4) Tap tone: long sustaining tap is always good... the pitch doesn't mean much by itself (you'll soon see why) but will give an indication to the density of the wood where higher pitch=denser and lower pitch=airy. I use tap tone mainly to find dead blanks and discard them. If it rings loud and has good sustain (bell) it passes.
5) Tap tone evenness: it's not enough to tap one area and it's crucial to NOT hold the wood in your other hand when tapping... it needs to be set on very small lifters at the very corners of the blank. The tap tone should be more or less even across the blank (it never gets 100% since tapping the center is nothing like tapping close to the edges... but you can develop a feel for this and get an idea of the evenness of the blank)
6) "Surface tone": without a better name for this weird wood attribute I just call it "surface tone"... when you move your dry hands over the wood blank you'll hear a "whishhhh" sound... if the whishhh is not crispy and strong enough it means that there will be less high end harmonics in the tone... not always a bad thing of course... but it's a great way to tell. (no I'm not insane... try this for yourselves)
OK... so once done with the quick and easy tests I should have a pretty good idea of the quality and general attributes of the blanks. Now things get a little more complicated... Any piece of wood is a non homogeneous volume of material with a lot going on inside it... Density changes, inner tensions, grain direction curves, sap % levels, sap crystallization levels, humidity... etc... every area of the blank may have different properties but the sum of all the areas together gives the entire "average" properties of the entire blank. Now here's the problem... every time the wood size is diminished by cutting it down the entire "average" may change and the volume shape is changed. Those two factors can get pretty far off from the original blank attributes. So... what I do next is bring the rough blanks to their almost final shape.
Once they are at their final size and shape I run a two (sometimes 3) octave tuning fork tests. This is done by running different forks all over the entire body, neck, top or board. I note the level of each fork between 1 to 10 and mark hot and dead areas if found. I give special attention to the neck joint and bridge area on a body and the body joint and headstock on a neck. Fingerboards have to be 100% perfect to prevent dead spots. The bodies will be checked again with the tops attached to get the final tonal properties.
High mids dropped and the tap tone wasn't very good any more. The entire upper area of this body bellow the waist was dead! Without this extra test I could have got me a dead-burst... Did it ever happen to you that a great sounding rectangular blank ended up with a lemon guitar? If it did, the explanation above might help to prevent that.
Aside from the passed/failed test the response to all the different frequencies tells me what to expect from that part... and that brings me to the next and final step which is matching. Selecting a killer body, neck and board means nothing unless they are matched. Matching is consisted of two aspects that can be used together: 1) Cancellation 2) Resonance
A good example for cancellation is a light weight early 50's Strat where the body is warm with a lot of low mids and less treble and the neck is bright being a one piece slab cut hard rock maple with a fat profile. In that case the brightness from the neck will be canceled a little by the lack of brightness on the body. That means that the overall acoustic level is sacrificed in order to get a warmer tone. The guitar will still keep some nice brightness... but nothing like... say... if we use a bright heavy dense Ash body (70's style).
Resonance, on the other hand, is achieved by matching parts with similar EQ properties in order to get them enhanced.
A careful use of both of the above aspects can get you into the tone design domain. It takes some practice and trial and error like anything in life... but the theory is solid and allows for some serious tools to help building better instruments. There's much more to it of course but one has to experiment and develop his own feel and taste for things. I can only say this... it's almost impossible to get a killer sounding guitar by chance. Good and nice ones yes... but not the ones that will drop your jaw to the floor. Even in the old days, they never did all that in the rapid production lines but they gave more attention to at least selecting the lumber quality, weight and origins. Many of the original Lesters are not so great but some are just amazing... same with Teles, Strats...etc... only some (I believe less than 20%) are really amazing guitars and it's a result of pure luck of the draw at the factory.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on November 09, 2010, 03:54:34 PM
nice share Alex! goes to show how much detail Gil goes into wood selection. :-D
btw, is it ok if you PM me a ballpark figure for Gil's strat build? thanks!
EDIT - emailed the address on his site instead. :lol:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on November 09, 2010, 06:27:16 PM
nice share Alex! goes to show how much detail Gil goes into wood selection. :-D
btw, is it ok if you PM me a ballpark figure for Gil's strat build? thanks!
EDIT - emailed the address on his site instead. :lol:
Check the prices on Destroy All Guitars... pero kung direct kay Gil much cheaper. Problem is -- I think the earliest slot you can take now is in 2012 -- ganoon na siya ka-puno.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: free2rock on November 10, 2010, 01:38:07 AM
Wow... I already thought it was kinda complicated, but I didn't think it would be THAT tedious. Experience really is very very helpful in making a build that is exceptional, tone-wise (Massive understatement, I know). :-P
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on November 10, 2010, 10:09:49 AM
Check the prices on Destroy All Guitars... pero kung direct kay Gil much cheaper. Problem is -- I think the earliest slot you can take now is in 2012 -- ganoon na siya ka-puno.
he replied to my email but without the estimated date of completion. :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: paengkee on November 10, 2010, 11:11:04 AM
To anyone who personally knows Alex, kindly tell him. Thanks :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: kawal on January 23, 2011, 08:38:56 AM
^maybe Gil is looking for Alex dahil nakuha na nya yung perfect '59 burst na tone! :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pualux on January 23, 2011, 06:37:01 PM
any updates on this?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on January 23, 2011, 06:48:43 PM
Sabi ni preeb ilang buwan na raw walang response si Alex. He is actually worried for him. I texted Arie about it and He said he'll pass the message along to Alex.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: toybitz on January 23, 2011, 07:54:25 PM
boss Alex shifted to flute na daw eh...
joke lang boss.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: boybangs on January 23, 2011, 08:57:28 PM
Sabi ni preeb ilang buwan na raw walang response si Alex. He is actually worried for him. I texted Arie about it and He said he'll pass the message along to Alex.
maybe Alex has more important things to attend to at the moment? we can only hope that all's well. this would have been a very nice build to follow and learn from.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: raybrig on January 24, 2011, 04:22:22 PM
^ di na nga rin sya nagpaparamdam dito sa GC... ano kaya nanyari sa kanya?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on January 24, 2011, 05:55:14 PM
his profile is online right at this very moment.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pualux on January 24, 2011, 06:02:37 PM
baka iniiwasan niya si gil for some reason?
let your imagination decide :roll:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on January 24, 2011, 08:20:42 PM
preeb told me the guitar is paid for; so alex has no reason to hide from him.
besides alex pm'd me. so, yes, he's alive and presumably back in contact with preeb and maybe he'll give y'all updates about the build.
good to know! i guess he's just adding to the suspense and keeping us at the edge of our seats on this one. :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 19, 2011, 08:22:36 PM
I just wanted to post an update. It seems that this is the only thread that I should restrict myself to. This way, I can avoid fights.
Attached is my updated maple top for my build.... (http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q182/oasgomez/60-2.jpg)
I would really like to say that Gil Yaron is such a great guy. He actually found me a better top and spent some time looking for it and cutting the billets himself.
A world class guy who makes a world class product.
I was a bit mean to him yesterday coming from all the venom on the other thread and I feel guilty about it because I thought he did not do his best to get me a better looking top -- coming from the angered posts of other forumites on the other thread. I started to doubt but he actually worked the whole day cutting maple billets to find something with wide flames. He sent me the pictures of other billets that did not have as much flame and that made me a believer.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 19, 2011, 08:28:38 PM
I forget to add that the top is flitchmatched.... and Gil is proud of it.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on February 19, 2011, 09:41:29 PM
great looking top!!, reminds me of joe b's LP, flitchmatch or mismatch top are elegant when the flames/figures are wider.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 19, 2011, 09:59:47 PM
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: tongski_02 on February 20, 2011, 04:12:49 PM
ganda!!! kainggit!!! tanong ko lang sir fm55, value wise mas okay ba sya sa gibson r9??? am saving up for an r9. pero nung nagbasa basa ako tungkol jan sa gil yaron nagkaron na ko doubts. a private collector and distributor dto sa singapore is offering me a brand new r9 for 7k sgd. close b sa presyo??? would you think its better if i go for this gil yaron??
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 20, 2011, 04:19:12 PM
ganda!!! kainggit!!! tanong ko lang sir fm55, value wise mas okay ba sya sa gibson r9??? am saving up for an r9. pero nung nagbasa basa ako tungkol jan sa gil yaron nagkaron na ko doubts. a private collector and distributor dto sa singapore is offering me a brand new r9 for 7k sgd. close b sa presyo??? would you think its better if i go for this gil yaron??
My opinion lang po ito kasi baka ma-hurt ang mga Gibson owners, but in terms of value, walang sinabi ang Gibson Historic Custom Arts division on ALL models. In terms of workmanship, accuracy, and most importantly wood used (Gil uses Honduran Mahogany, Brazilian Rosewood and East Cost Maple -- like the originals), walang sinabi ang Gibson. The Gil Yaron costs more.... So, my rule of thumb is if a collector and a distributor are trying to get rid of that r9, it must be a bad sounding r9. On the other hand, Gil Yaron's order to production leadtime is 15 months.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: tongski_02 on February 20, 2011, 04:32:28 PM
My opinion lang po ito kasi baka ma-hurt ang mga Gibson owners, but in terms of value, walang sinabi ang Gibson Historic Custom Arts division on ALL models. In terms of workmanship, accuracy, and most importantly wood used (Gil uses Honduran Mahogany, Brazilian Rosewood and East Cost Maple -- like the originals), walang sinabi ang Gibson. The Gil Yaron costs more.... So, my rule of thumb is if a collector and a distributor are trying to get rid of that r9, it must be a bad sounding r9. On the other hand, Gil Yaron's order to production leadtime is 15 months.
ntest ko naman ung r9, to me it sounds better than my r7 and r8. i havent personally got to test a gilyaron build. anyway sir can you pm me how much u paid?? saka pwede ba ma test ung gil yaron nyo kapag tapos na???
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 20, 2011, 04:42:09 PM
ntest ko naman ung r9, to me it sounds better than my r7 and r8. i havent personally got to test a gilyaron build. anyway sir can you pm me how much u paid?? saka pwede ba ma test ung gil yaron nyo kapag tapos na???
Prepare to spend at least US$8k.
Sure you can test the Gil Yaron but I think baka mga early 2012 pa and dating.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on February 20, 2011, 04:50:34 PM
his burst and finishing technique look fantastic Alex ... If I were to have one made, I probably would go for a pearly gates look and finish.... very nice and unique color on that one..
love the flame on photo number 2 and 3 ... my kind of flame! nice and fat!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on February 20, 2011, 04:59:23 PM
Sure you can test the Gil Yaron but I think baka mga early 2012 pa and dating.
okay yan. aasahan ko yan sir. ipon muna ako hanggang 2012 bago magdecide kung gibson or gy. tnx in the meantime nuod muna ko ng progress ny build ng guitar nyo
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: free2rock on February 20, 2011, 05:30:50 PM
This is one of those few cases that you can really know and validate where your money is going: sa materials, worksmanship, and knowledge ng luthier in addition to little custom preferences. Anyone with the residual income to get one of these is either very lucky or really hardworking. Kung ako nagkapera para umorder ng ganito, I'll be woodshedding like crazy while waiting so that I can make it play and sound to its fullest potential once I get it. Then I can really exploit and enjoy my investment, regardless if other people be hatin' on me cuz I have one and they don't.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: free2rock on February 20, 2011, 07:46:13 PM
This is one of those few cases that you can really know and validate where your money is going: sa materials, worksmanship, and knowledge ng luthier in addition to little custom preferences. Anyone with the residual income to get one of these is either very lucky or really hardworking. Kung ako nagkapera para umorder ng ganito, I'll be woodshedding like crazy while waiting so that I can make it play and sound to its fullest potential once I get it. Then I can really exploit and enjoy my investment, regardless if other people be hatin' on me cuz I have one and they don't.
Oh yeah. +10000 on that. But first I'll have to increase my income so much so I can justify that I can afford having one (or two) made. Seen his work on a pre-CBS Strat? Amazing stuff... :-)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: vhunter on February 20, 2011, 07:48:15 PM
Yo alex.. any update on my q's?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: deltaslim on February 20, 2011, 07:56:45 PM
Oh yeah. +10000 on that. But first I'll have to increase my income so much so I can justify that I can afford having one (or two) made. Seen his work on a pre-CBS Strat? Amazing stuff... :-)
I remember getting excited for my custom acoustic builds from Harana and Deltacaster from Mike Sison. Kapal ng kalyo ng kamay ko kakapraktis in preparation for the guitars. LOL.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: free2rock on February 20, 2011, 08:17:46 PM
I remember getting excited for my 2 acoustic builds and Deltacaster from Mike Sison. Kapal ng kalyo ng kamay ko kakapraktis in preparation for the guitars. LOL.
I think I can imagine the excitement--Just like a kid before Christmas. :-D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: maxi_musikero on February 21, 2011, 11:03:14 AM
finally updates on this thread! you have been keeping most of the folks here on edge. :lol:
finally updates on this thread! you have been keeping most of the folks here on edge. :lol:
gorgeous..just gorgeous. those are custom Gil Yaron HBs right? PAF-based?
Just to clarify... this specific picture is a picture or a real burst from another website. Gil is using it as a target but... you can see his actual relics on destroy all guitars and the gil yaron websites respectively,
Gil makes his own pickups based on different PAFs... so depending on what you want and what the wood sounds -- interaction of the mahogany body, braz rosewood and maple top -- he will wind to fine tune but still within PAF sounding parameters.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on February 21, 2011, 11:24:21 AM
maganda. siguradong maganda ang hiyaw ng guitarang ito. http://images.travelpod.com/tripwow/photos/ta-00aa-291a-ec75/naku-nkakatakot-tirik-mata-davao-philippines+1152_12864543236-tpfil02aw-29409.jpg (http://images.travelpod.com/tripwow/photos/ta-00aa-291a-ec75/naku-nkakatakot-tirik-mata-davao-philippines+1152_12864543236-tpfil02aw-29409.jpg)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 22, 2011, 07:00:20 AM
maganda. siguradong maganda ang hiyaw ng guitarang ito. http://images.travelpod.com/tripwow/photos/ta-00aa-291a-ec75/naku-nkakatakot-tirik-mata-davao-philippines+1152_12864543236-tpfil02aw-29409.jpg (http://images.travelpod.com/tripwow/photos/ta-00aa-291a-ec75/naku-nkakatakot-tirik-mata-davao-philippines+1152_12864543236-tpfil02aw-29409.jpg)
Pasensiya ka na lang pare kung wala ka nito:)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: raybrig on February 22, 2011, 08:18:42 AM
tama ang hinala ko. may isang pampam (nanaman) na umaaligid aligid sa philmusic
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: guitarwiz02 on February 22, 2011, 09:31:11 AM
alex, does gil sell PAF's? as in PAF PU's lang?[/b][/color]
Not alex, but when i asked Gil that same question months ago. sabi nya, "Yes... but it comes with the guitar." US$8k just for pickups? Ang mahal! LOL.
Seriously, I asked if he can custom wind a Peter Green HB for me. Inaaral pa niya pero at the time and he wasn't interested in making/selling pus only. Maybe eventually he'll hire people (not just his wife - LOL!) and then magbago na sagot nya.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: free2rock on February 22, 2011, 04:33:22 PM
Not alex, but when i asked Gil that same question months ago. sabi nya, "Yes... but it comes with the guitar." US$8k just for pickups? Ang mahal! LOL.
Seriously, I asked if he can custom wind a Peter Green HB for me. Inaaral pa niya pero at the time and he wasn't interested in making/selling pus only. Maybe eventually he'll hire people (not just his wife - LOL!) and then magbago na sagot nya.
Hahaha! :lol: Might as well buy original PAFs for that price.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: orangeogre on February 25, 2011, 12:18:48 PM
Alex, dunno if you have mentioned this but, what headstock will you be getting? the Gibson open book with Gibson decal or the GILYARON headstock/decal?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 25, 2011, 12:28:14 PM
Alex, dunno if you have mentioned this but, what headstock will you be getting? the Gibson open book with Gibson decal or the GILYARON headstock/decal?
GILYARON headstock/decal...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: orangeogre on February 25, 2011, 12:36:55 PM
really? wow, I thought you'd be going for a clone.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 25, 2011, 03:19:58 PM
Easier to bring it thru U.S. Customs if it said Gil Yaron....
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 25, 2011, 03:27:05 PM
As additional info for this thread, I decided to ask Gil to clarify what he exactly he makes or subscontracts on his Les Paul builds... its not too clear on his site but this was his reply to me: * I make all the plastics here * I outsource all the metal parts except for the Kluson Tuners and CTS pots. They are all made to my specs on old school machinery * Most screws are are NOS originals * I make the PU's with NOS wire and my own poles, slugs, covers, bobbins...etc.. * trapezoid Inlays are from Dave (I help him out since he bought way too much material...LOL) * Harness shielded wire is 2 strand with 100% correct spec specially made for me
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: nathanmanansala on February 25, 2011, 04:34:29 PM
Not alex, but when i asked Gil that same question months ago. sabi nya, "Yes... but it comes with the guitar." US$8k just for pickups? Ang mahal! LOL.
Seriously, I asked if he can custom wind a Peter Green HB for me. Inaaral pa niya pero at the time and he wasn't interested in making/selling pus only. Maybe eventually he'll hire people (not just his wife - LOL!) and then magbago na sagot nya.
there are a lot of other winders, lalo na MLPF, who specialize in PAF replicas (shed pickups, sheptone, will boggs). people who actually have taken apart real PAFs. there's even one who now owns the machines gibson used to wind the PAFs in the 50s (throbak). :lol:
most of them offer peter green PAFs too.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: free2rock on February 25, 2011, 07:05:09 PM
Yeah but the downside is there are TOO MANY of them out there, IMO. You'd have to spend time sifting through information and reviews before you choose a winder/pickup maker.
Another note, original PAF's weren't constructed consisently, too. So it's better to have a sound in mind first.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on March 19, 2011, 08:18:22 AM
If you want to hear some soundclips of a Gil Yaron LP into a JTM 45 Replica, go to:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Pepe Pimentel on March 19, 2011, 08:49:37 AM
[strawberry], mannnnn. On one end, why buy a custom guitar when you can afford a genuine vintage Fender or Gibson? But if you've got everything, mannnn, then I say why not go nuts and spend all your hard earned peseta on the best wood, the best pickups, the whole nine [strawberry] yards, man!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: tongski_02 on March 19, 2011, 01:12:29 PM
ganda!!! sana may a-b comparison sa mga original 1959 at 1959 ri's husay ng itsura lalo n ung mild relic. mahahawig sa mga guitar sa beauty of the burst
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on March 19, 2011, 05:28:10 PM
ganda!!! sana may a-b comparison sa mga original 1959 at 1959 ri's husay ng itsura lalo n ung mild relic. mahahawig sa mga guitar sa beauty of the burst
Sana nga, but among the clips I really liked the Good Times, Bad Times... I was floored it sounded as good if not better than the real Led Zepp track.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on March 19, 2011, 09:50:29 PM
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: burnsbhm on March 20, 2011, 04:17:03 PM
Alex, do you know any video that compares the Yarron with a vintage Les Paul? Preferrably the 58-60 LP Standards?
Definitely they won't sound the same but I am just curious how CLOSE it will be. Or at least how special the sound will be if it won't be an exact clone of the vintage les paul soundwise.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: tongski_02 on March 20, 2011, 11:58:42 PM
Alex, do you know any video that compares the Yarron with a vintage Les Paul? Preferrably the 58-60 LP Standards?
Definitely they won't sound the same but I am just curious how CLOSE it will be. Or at least how special the sound will be if it won't be an exact clone of the vintage les paul soundwise.
None yet but it would be pointless because maraming panget na tunog na 58-60 Bursts. So, how would we know if what the G.Y. is tested against is a good sounding old burst?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: burnsbhm on March 21, 2011, 02:11:29 PM
None yet but it would be pointless because maraming panget na tunog na 58-60 Bursts. So, how would we know if what the G.Y. is tested against is a good sounding old burst?
ok...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: prince22 on March 21, 2011, 02:17:28 PM
This is a superb relic and thats why I could never understand bakit dating pinagmamalaki ang baboy na relic ni elegee sa isang Les Paul.
Do you have a picture of this? Baboy nga ba talaga?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: xelalien on March 21, 2011, 02:21:20 PM
^^^ may video pa nyan dati, nasa "How TO Relic... (not for the weak heart)" thread dati dito, kaso tinanggal na yata.
high level talaga ang OC-ness nitong si Mr. Gil. ang tindi nung $9250 burst! :-o
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on March 21, 2011, 02:58:22 PM
Alex,
Ryan C. is a friend of mine. He's also into the vintage market. He swears by his GY and tells me the only way I can take it off his hands is if he dies ahead of me LOL. I think you're in for a really good treat! Invite me over when it arrives will you?? hehe I would love to hear it in person...
If i didn't have a goldtop inbound, I would have put my money on one too... maybe in the future I'll have GY make me a 55 wraptail type of goldtop...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: kym005 on March 21, 2011, 11:27:41 PM
subscribing...(watery mouth) :evil:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on March 22, 2011, 01:21:11 AM
Ryan C. is a friend of mine. He's also into the vintage market. He swears by his GY and tells me the only way I can take it off his hands is if he dies ahead of me LOL. I think you're in for a really good treat! Invite me over when it arrives will you?? hehe I would love to hear it in person...
If i didn't have a goldtop inbound, I would have put my money on one too... maybe in the future I'll have GY make me a 55 wraptail type of goldtop...
Sure... I would also love to hear it in person, I mean thats what keeps me nervous. Maganda nga ba ang tunog ng GY? Itong problema, hindi yata gumagawa ng gold top as of now si Gil. Mauuna pa yata ang 335.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: bryanarzaga on March 22, 2011, 02:19:16 AM
the relic looks work on that piece, but i like the non relic found in DAG website
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on March 22, 2011, 03:10:13 AM
Sure... I would also love to hear it in person, I mean thats what keeps me nervous. Maganda nga ba ang tunog ng GY? Itong problema, hindi yata gumagawa ng gold top as of now si Gil. Mauuna pa yata ang 335.
I'm actually really tempted to get a strat from him hehe :D
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on April 09, 2011, 03:43:58 AM
According to my friend, Cliff Cultreri of Destroy All Guitars:
"In regard to the Gil Yaron Replica, I’ve not heard anything come closer to the real ‘58s and ‘59s. It’s something that I myself feel I must have. George’s guitar sounds and plays incredible. I had it here for a few days and it was very difficult to let it go."
By the way, George of Metro Amps has added another clip of the Gil Yaron thru the GPM 45 Head -- Since I've Been Loving You. In addition to the Good Times and Bad Times clip, I believe this has been the best recording so far on the web for Gil Yaron Replica.
And for the chug chug people, though Gil Yaron has advised me against using this replica on high gain amps, I am definitely out to prove that it will out class any HEAVINESS out there.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: ron21 on April 09, 2011, 06:08:02 AM
And for the chug chug people, though Gil Yaron has advised me against using this replica on high gain amps, I am definitely out to prove that it will out class any HEAVINESS out there.
kewl and sweet
hows the build coming along?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on April 09, 2011, 08:38:49 AM
Nothing ... still. I just decided to kid Gil but he said I shouldn't worry.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: vegetablejoe on April 09, 2011, 09:56:16 AM
Hi Alex,
a serious question and with no malice intended... should your Gil Yaron guitar turn out to be all you want it to be, will you still keep the Suhr and Baker? Coz for myself, I'd have a tough time letting go my toys... even if one were better than the others. It would need company. :lol:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on April 09, 2011, 10:16:00 AM
a serious question and with no malice intended... should your Gil Yaron guitar turn out to be all you want it to be, will you still keep the Suhr and Baker? Coz for myself, I'd have a tough time letting go my toys... even if one were better than the others. It would need company. :lol:
Definitely Suhrs are still keepers because they are not at all similar to the Gil Yaron Les Paul...
However, I really don't know about the Baker #55...
Too early to say.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: dantuts on April 10, 2011, 12:01:19 AM
I'm actually really tempted to get a strat from him hehe :D
damn , i thought you're an acoustic convert. you need to see a doctor !! :evil:
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Filippo on April 10, 2011, 08:04:01 AM
^^ Hell no Dants, I still am electric over acoustic :lol: I can never imagine myself dropping $10k on an acoustic, though that amount seems small next to the going rate of the really killer acoustics out there in the market ... not to derail the thread ... back to GY and his genius hehe :)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: orangeogre on April 10, 2011, 02:03:16 PM
yes he does. and kung gusto mo raw pickups lang ang bilhin, kailangan mo rin daw bayaran yung buong price ng guitar. :-D
I remember going once to a record store trying to find a record cover of Chicago's third album. I own that album but the record cover was damaged. I got to that record store and ask the man how much is the album, he said it was 300 pesos. I explained to him that I only wanted the cover not the 2records (it's a double album), sagot niya (and it was GOOD) Pre 300 libre na plaka!
I laughed out loud and bought the record, cover and all!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pualux on April 16, 2011, 04:01:03 PM
I remember going once to a record store trying to find a record cover of Chicago's third album. I own that album but the record cover was damaged. I got to that record store and ask the man how much is the album, he said it was 300 pesos. I explained to him that I only wanted the cover not the 2records (it's a double album), sagot niya (and it was GOOD) Pre 300 libre na plaka!
I laughed out loud and bought the record, cover and all!
astig magpajoke si kuya ah haha
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: plugzzzz on April 20, 2011, 04:34:16 PM
FM wala na naunahan kana meron nang me gilyaron sa pinas at di sya nagmamagaling about sa tone
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: orangeogre on April 20, 2011, 04:43:01 PM
although, I think ang kay Alex eh custom order. Yung kay Guitarfox ay built na yata. yata ahh. not sure.
At the end of the day, malupit sigurado both guitars.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: spetsnaz1123 on April 20, 2011, 04:48:03 PM
oh somebody bit the bullet ahead of fm55? too bad for the precious bragging right...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: teleclem on April 20, 2011, 04:53:12 PM
According to my friend, Cliff Cultreri of Destroy All Guitars:
"In regard to the Gil Yaron Replica, I’ve not heard anything come closer to the real ‘58s and ‘59s. It’s something that I myself feel I must have. George’s guitar sounds and plays incredible. I had it here for a few days and it was very difficult to let it go."
By the way, George of Metro Amps has added another clip of the Gil Yaron thru the GPM 45 Head -- Since I've Been Loving You. In addition to the Good Times and Bad Times clip, I believe this has been the best recording so far on the web for Gil Yaron Replica.
True.
And Cliff mentioned also that George is selling his 58 and had a GY 59 built already. Or at least it started. Clips - not sure.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: pitongjerome on April 22, 2011, 01:55:50 AM
^salarin o
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: orangeogre on April 23, 2011, 10:45:28 AM
Still hope alex will still update thread. Im patiently waiting for this monster to arrive.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: teleclem on April 23, 2011, 10:53:05 AM
alex, can we also continue the thread here sa PM? (grabe, kala ko hindi ko mahuhukay tong thread na to. =) )
Ako rin eh... Will try to retrace where I stopped.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: tongski_02 on November 17, 2011, 08:32:08 PM
bilis ng panahon. dati inaabangan ko to. ngaun buo na sya. swerte nung mga naka hawak at naka try. saludo kay oas kasi walang damot nyang pag-Share s GY. sana maulit. talagang gustong gusto ko sya mhawakan
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: toybitz on November 23, 2011, 07:10:59 PM
what can I say, the bullet FM55 bit was worth it!
the 1 year wait and hundreds of thousands spents were all rewarded with a versatile LP. an LP you can actually strum with open chords without ever sounding muddy.
the "3D" factor? grabe, the sound that comes out of the amp is very alive and progressing. It isn't limiting and compressed.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: strummer on November 25, 2011, 04:25:39 AM
NOW I WANT A LES PAUL. congrats!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: markezekiel on November 27, 2011, 08:05:49 AM
congrats. :)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on January 30, 2012, 05:28:14 PM
Watch Wally Gonzales perform this Saturday, February 4, 2012 at My Brothers Moustache -- Scout Madrinan corner Scout Tuazon
Sir Alex, will you also be lending him your Cornell amp or any of your amps? :mrgreen:
Yes... I promised Wally that I would bring the Cornell amp.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: gandydancer123 on January 30, 2012, 09:54:27 PM
wow awesome!!!
Gil Yaron is right..
Quote
It's not a secret that most of the manufacturing processes of our time are driven by big companies with a single task in mind - 'Making money'... Nothing wrong with that of course, but when the decision makers in big guitar manufacturing companies are not guitar players and never experienced the difference between a 50s vintage guitar and a mass produced cheapo... this is exactly how you get most of the 'off the shelf' guitars out there.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: cayle on January 31, 2012, 07:54:30 AM
wow sigurado nadagdagan ang mojo nyan...nahawakan ng legend e :)
I have to admit, super bagay itong gitara na ito with Wally's style. In fact, this Gil Yaron was able to cut thru the band mix of two other guitarists, one was Nitoy with his PRS and another guy with an Ibanez. In addition, there were heavy keyboard parts courtesy of Wowie Posadas. The Gil Yaron sounded thick yet with bell like presence on the top end. In my personal opinion, when Wally switched backed to his Strat, lumubog siya at biglang nawala sa mix.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: SixtyCycleOhm on February 01, 2012, 06:22:10 PM
The binding is very fine (amazing work actually) which follows the outline of the side of the frets... Not unlike the Gibsons of today with elevated ridges on the binding.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Poundcake on February 03, 2012, 02:21:41 PM
Alex, the GY looks great without the pickguard but parang kulang pag wala. Parang mas authentic '59 pag may pickguard. Hehe. It's still the same guitar anyway.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 03, 2012, 04:20:49 PM
Alex, the GY looks great without the pickguard but parang kulang pag wala. Parang mas authentic '59 pag may pickguard. Hehe. It's still the same guitar anyway.
Was hard for me to remove the pickguard but... I think without it, it shows the beauty of the top more.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 03, 2012, 04:25:11 PM
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: Rmansh on February 04, 2012, 04:19:42 PM
very nice. do you have some wiring pics? what pots and caps did GY use?
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: mrbrownstone on February 04, 2012, 08:02:32 PM
550s yata ung pots with .22 bees for the neck and bridge
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: mrbrownstone on February 04, 2012, 08:24:25 PM
Minumulto parin ako ng GY mo Alex hahaha. After reading again this thread I realized and to some extent bothered, that a guitar's response and character is often overlooked. Guitarists have to realize, that timbre alone is not what a good guitar is all about.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: firemodel55 on February 05, 2012, 02:44:11 AM
Minumulto parin ako ng GY mo Alex hahaha. After reading again this thread I realized and to some extent bothered, that a guitar's response and character is often overlooked. Guitarists have to realize, that timbre alone is not what a good guitar is all about.
+1
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: dennis22opina on February 05, 2012, 05:15:34 AM
I could only wish to hold a guitar like that let alone play one..I'm not worthy..hehehe.. :)
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: free2rock on February 08, 2012, 06:46:12 AM
Put the guard back on! Kawawa naman siya nakahubad.
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: shkc on February 08, 2012, 06:52:31 AM
alex, are there soundclips yet? or na-miss ko lang sa thread na to (perhaps ibang thread)? may videos din ba nung wally g gig?
Sorry wala but... Aire Hipolito will be using the Gil Yaron this Saturday, May 19 sa Brothers Moustache at 9pm. Kita kits na lang tayo doon...
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: gandydancer123 on November 23, 2012, 10:32:46 AM
WOW!! GREAT READ TO!!!
Title: Re: Bite the Bullet -- Taking a custom order
Post by: gandydancer123 on November 23, 2012, 01:56:07 PM
Just finished reading all 21 pages...Amazing thread!! and Tons of great and usefull info and personal insights!!! A must read for everyone!! Thanks Firemodel for sharing this Journey!!!