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Author Topic: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)  (Read 2139 times)

Offline queer_rocker

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #25 on: June 25, 2017, 03:50:56 PM »
Just to clarify, and no harm or insult meant, I wanted to find out what equipment the source is/was exposed to rather than his musical experience or skill.

aray
dude, there is a difference between having fun and just being a troll.
weh di nga?

Offline Bolt Thrower

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #26 on: June 25, 2017, 05:35:18 PM »
The solution to this is easy.

Axe Fx (or AX8, Atomic, Kemper) to a high headroom power amp, out 1 to a nice conventional guitar cabinet, then out 2 straight to mixer with your cab sim signal.
You get the best of both worlds. Cranked and chest thumping onstage/amp in a room volume then an optimal sounding sound in the mixer. If you don't trust the PA, you still can mic the cab, no problem. 

Of course that doesn't and won't replace tube amps. Emulators emulate tube amps for the exact same reason they can't entirely replace them but to get artists the convenience to get close to that sound without breaking their back and banks from carrying all that weight. They also save on stage prep time, upkeep, and tech expenses. And you know how a tube amp can be a b1tch. It won't sound the same some nights.

Emulators are there for convenience. But they won't replace the old tech.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2017, 05:40:51 PM by Bolt Thrower »

Online juwanfidle09

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #27 on: June 26, 2017, 04:56:42 AM »
Just to clarify, and no harm or insult meant, I wanted to find out what equipment the source is/was exposed to rather than his musical experience or skill.

It's cool, medyo natawa lang ako na pagkatapos ko pa talaga sumagot tsaka ka pa nagclarify :lol:

Yung sa detailed list ng equipment, pagtanong niyo nalang, di ko na inalam e hehe :-D
« Last Edit: June 26, 2017, 05:19:25 AM by juwanfidle09 »

Online firemodel55

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #28 on: June 26, 2017, 02:50:11 PM »
It's cool, medyo natawa lang ako na pagkatapos ko pa talaga sumagot tsaka ka pa nagclarify :lol:

Yung sa detailed list ng equipment, pagtanong niyo nalang, di ko na inalam e hehe :-D

Oks lang. No need to go thru the effort.  My bad.  I should have used more specific adjectives prior to the word 'exposure'.

Online Stoop

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2017, 01:27:47 AM »
EDIT: Apologies Mali ang basa ko dun sa post.

That's my point and that's what I am asking for -- produce a worthy digital modeler beating HiFi DACs.  Its budget driving your choice between digital and analog and not sound.
But what if I indeed enjoyed the sound of digital? Yeah it's an HD500 but still. . . anyways, hahaha!
Doesn't that also helps in driving the choices I've made? I'm seriously considering buying a Line 6 Helix once I got enough moolah for it because I really like its feature set.
The sounds as always will be debate-able but for the things I want it to do, it definitely does a great job (particularly standalone rec. interface and amp simulation) because at least for me, once those guitar tracks get into an actual full band mix, I could not care less if they came from tubes or modelers as long as they serve the song.

Again, not saying that tube amps could "ever" be replaced by modelers but for what we can have now? I think modelers are in a very good spot compared to their previous iterations.
Also for recorded / live digital tones, I "liked"

Monuments - Amanuensis
Tesseract - One and Altered State
Intervals
Plini
Sithu Aye

You could definitely see the pattern there and yes they are in no waaaaay the big shot guys but them records sounds absolute ear candy, so yeah.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2017, 01:41:26 AM by Stoop »


Offline Bolt Thrower

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #30 on: June 30, 2017, 01:11:30 AM »
Yeah. That's true. Modelers have really gone far from the Red Bean of old. Ang layo na ng tunog. There is this space, sag, and warmth that previously wasn't available. Lalo na mga Atomic, Fractal at Kemper. Have you seen Guthrie rock thru his AxeFx rig. Daaaaamn.

Even the cheapo ones like the Boss Katana, have more than usable tones. 

The big contention is that people can't get that amp in a room feel with modelers and their SS power amps and traditional cabs. They fail to realize that if you use a tube power amp, the current interacts with the speaker and produces that resonance. The SS Poweramp wont do that. You have to get in the resonance and low frequency speaker page of your modelers to get that response. You have to exactly input the lo and resonance frequency of your speakers to get that cabinet to thump the same as when you are using a tube amp. 


Online Ralph_Petrucci

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #31 on: June 30, 2017, 12:26:31 PM »
Yeah. That's true. Modelers have really gone far from the Red Bean of old. Ang layo na ng tunog. There is this space, sag, and warmth that previously wasn't available. Lalo na mga Atomic, Fractal at Kemper. Have you seen Guthrie rock thru his AxeFx rig. Daaaaamn.

Even the cheapo ones like the Boss Katana, have more than usable tones. 

The big contention is that people can't get that amp in a room feel with modelers and their SS power amps and traditional cabs. They fail to realize that if you use a tube power amp, the current interacts with the speaker and produces that resonance. The SS Poweramp wont do that. You have to get in the resonance and low frequency speaker page of your modelers to get that response. You have to exactly input the lo and resonance frequency of your speakers to get that cabinet to thump the same as when you are using a tube amp. 



Ali, sobrang solid ba nung katana? I've been seeing your posts eh.
hahaha ako binibiyak ko muna yung wetpaks para makita kung may yellow thingy hahahaha

Offline titser_marco

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #32 on: June 30, 2017, 10:45:21 PM »
Yeah. That's true. Modelers have really gone far from the Red Bean of old. Ang layo na ng tunog. There is this space, sag, and warmth that previously wasn't available. Lalo na mga Atomic, Fractal at Kemper. Have you seen Guthrie rock thru his AxeFx rig. Daaaaamn.

Even the cheapo ones like the Boss Katana, have more than usable tones. 

The big contention is that people can't get that amp in a room feel with modelers and their SS power amps and traditional cabs. They fail to realize that if you use a tube power amp, the current interacts with the speaker and produces that resonance. The SS Poweramp wont do that. You have to get in the resonance and low frequency speaker page of your modelers to get that response. You have to exactly input the lo and resonance frequency of your speakers to get that cabinet to thump the same as when you are using a tube amp.
Resonance is mostly a cab function not a power section interaction. What nonsense.

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I'd rather be sharp than flat.

Offline Bolt Thrower

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2017, 02:46:38 AM »
Ali, sobrang solid ba nung katana? I've been seeing your posts eh.

Nakakagulat lang kasi na maganda pala. Ang baba ng expectation ko. Balak ko lang talaga Yamaha THR o Spider V na head para may mini speakers pang low volume practice. Kaso for the value mas pinili ko Katana Head. Kung tutuusin, Gt1 yung cosm amp modeling nito. Except brown channel from Waza, pero yung power amp tuning niya convincing na nag iba totally yung feel ng amp models.
Nakuha yung natural sounding sag at decay na di kaya ng Blackstar ID, Peavey Vypyr, or Line 6 Spiders. Yung power amp tuning niya malapit sa response ng Axe Fx. 
Of course, maganda siya din sa magandang cab at speakers. Di ko trip yung katana speakers, masyado flat.

Tinapat ko siya sa Soldano patch ko sa AX8 and power amp ko 5150II. kayang sumabay pero syempre mas maganda pa rin tunog nung tube sa high volume. Pero not bad, volume at response niya parang 50w EVH 5150III. Ang lakas at hindi bitin sa headroom. Wala yung SS treble spike.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 07:43:47 AM by Bolt Thrower »

Offline Bolt Thrower

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2017, 02:53:25 AM »
Resonance is mostly a cab function not a power section interaction. What nonsense.

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Lol nonsense agad? Have you used an axe fx? Atomic Amplifire? Helix? Kemper? And plugged to an ss amp and a tube amp one after the other? Notice a difference?
I meant here is the resonance your speaker produces in hertz all by itself. My speakers have a resonance reading of 111hz. If I plug in to a tube poweramp, the power amp takes care of reaching and exciting that resonance. If I use an SS amp, it wont be the same. I need to rely on the tube power amp modeling on an axefx to get me that 111hz resonant frequency so that my cab would thump like i am using a tube power amp.



« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 08:00:34 AM by Bolt Thrower »

Offline titser_marco

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2017, 02:28:55 PM »
Lol nonsense agad? Have you used an axe fx? Atomic Amplifire? Helix? Kemper? And plugged to an ss amp and a tube amp one after the other? Notice a difference?
I meant here is the resonance your speaker produces in hertz all by itself. My speakers have a resonance reading of 111hz. If I plug in to a tube poweramp, the power amp takes care of reaching and exciting that resonance. If I use an SS amp, it wont be the same. I need to rely on the tube power amp modeling on an axefx to get me that 111hz resonant frequency so that my cab would thump like i am using a tube power amp.
Have you even built and repaired amps? Do you even know how they work?

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« Last Edit: July 01, 2017, 02:32:38 PM by titser_marco »
I'd rather be sharp than flat.

Offline Bolt Thrower

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2017, 12:21:31 AM »
Have you even built and repaired amps? Do you even know how they work?

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Then if you have built and repaired amps, you should already know this. Otherwise , Google is your friend. Or like I said, try a modeler with a tube power amp and a solid state power amp side by side. Nothing wrong with learning something new.   

Offline titser_marco

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2017, 08:40:40 AM »
Then if you have built and repaired amps, you should already know this. Otherwise , Google is your friend. Or like I said, try a modeler with a tube power amp and a solid state power amp side by side. Nothing wrong with learning something new.

Cant even answer the question straight. You know nothing then. Unless you've worked on an amp and understood how it works as a system, you don't know what you're talking about re resonance and power amp interaction. Try getting your feet wet in tube electronics and see where you end up with your thinking re resonance. As you said, nothing wrong with learning something new.

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« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:47:15 AM by titser_marco »
I'd rather be sharp than flat.

Offline Skybox

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2017, 10:06:22 AM »
Relax lang guys nood muna ng Youtube.

#DigitalHiyaw

Offline Bolt Thrower

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2017, 11:42:56 AM »
Cant even answer the question straight. You know nothing then. Unless you've worked on an amp and understood how it works as a system, you don't know what you're talking about re resonance and power amp interaction. Try getting your feet wet in tube electronics and see where you end up with your thinking re resonance. As you said, nothing wrong with learning something new.

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What kind of logic is that? Doesn't mean if you worked with amps you know everything about them. Para kang mga Marcos loyalist na nabuhay lang ng panahon na yun, akala nila alam na lahat hahahaha! Ang dami dami naman facts na hindi pa alam na nasalibro naman at Google. Conversely, gumawa ka na ba ng Solid State power amp at nag CODE ng modeling unit?
Mas magaling ka pa yata kay Cliff Chase e.

There's no point in debating you and your "tube amp knowledge". Everyone  who have extensively used modeling units with both kinds of power amps know how the power amp influences speaker resonance, inductance etc.  Even the Kemper units copy this power amp-speaker interaction.

And no. Your HD500 doesn't have that. 

« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 03:34:05 PM by Bolt Thrower »

Offline Bolt Thrower

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #40 on: July 02, 2017, 11:44:24 AM »
Relax lang guys nood muna ng Youtube.


maganda nga! Nipis lang talaga ng speaker ng 50w combo.

Offline titser_marco

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #41 on: July 02, 2017, 08:10:45 PM »
What kind of logic is that? Doesn't mean if you worked with amps you know everything about them. Para kang mga Marcos loyalist na nabuhay lang ng panahon na yun, akala nila alam na lahat hahahaha! Ang dami dami naman facts na hindi pa alam na nasalibro naman at Google. Conversely, gumawa ka na ba ng Solid State power amp at nag CODE ng modeling unit?
Mas magaling ka pa yata kay Cliff Chase e.

There's no point in debating you and your "tube amp knowledge". Everyone  who have extensively used modeling units with both kinds of power amps know how the power amp influences speaker resonance, inductance etc.  Even the Kemper units copy this power amp-speaker interaction.

And no. Your HD500 doesn't have that.

Having worked on amps certainly makes one know more than someone who's been an end-user of digital simulacra and not even the real thing. I've worked on amps, done measurements, and know how these things work as a system. Have you done anything close to that? All you have is hand-me-down knowledge and zero experience. Nice try.

LOL your point about power amps influencing speaker cab inductance betrays your colossal ignorance. Also stop trying to be a petit-firemodel55 by brandishing your experience with modelers as if it's anything special. I'm done here.

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« Last Edit: July 02, 2017, 08:24:35 PM by titser_marco »
I'd rather be sharp than flat.

Offline Bolt Thrower

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #42 on: July 03, 2017, 02:51:31 AM »
Having worked on amps certainly makes one know more than someone who's been an end-user of digital simulacra and not even the real thing. I've worked on amps, done measurements, and know how these things work as a system. Have you done anything close to that? All you have is hand-me-down knowledge and zero experience. Nice try.



HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Nagpalit ka lang mga resistor at nakakumpleto DIY build, tindig Dave Friedman ka na. lol Baka pag naka assemble ka guitar kit, luthier ka na.

Offline Skybox

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #43 on: July 03, 2017, 02:22:31 PM »
Nakakagulat lang kasi na maganda pala. Ang baba ng expectation ko. Balak ko lang talaga Yamaha THR o Spider V na head para may mini speakers pang low volume practice. Kaso for the value mas pinili ko Katana Head. Kung tutuusin, Gt1 yung cosm amp modeling nito. Except brown channel from Waza, pero yung power amp tuning niya convincing na nag iba totally yung feel ng amp models.
Nakuha yung natural sounding sag at decay na di kaya ng Blackstar ID, Peavey Vypyr, or Line 6 Spiders. Yung power amp tuning niya malapit sa response ng Axe Fx. 
Of course, maganda siya din sa magandang cab at speakers. Di ko trip yung katana speakers, masyado flat.

Tinapat ko siya sa Soldano patch ko sa AX8 and power amp ko 5150II. kayang sumabay pero syempre mas maganda pa rin tunog nung tube sa high volume. Pero not bad, volume at response niya parang 50w EVH 5150III. Ang lakas at hindi bitin sa headroom. Wala yung SS treble spike.

What cab are you using with the Katana head bro? I'm interested coz it's a 100W head the size of a Blackstar HT5 and in a fraction of the weight and obviously built tougher. And almost the same price haha!
#DigitalHiyaw

Offline Bolt Thrower

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #44 on: July 03, 2017, 09:42:32 PM »
What cab are you using with the Katana head bro? I'm interested coz it's a 100W head the size of a Blackstar HT5 and in a fraction of the weight and obviously built tougher. And almost the same price haha!

Genz Benz Gflex 212 with Eminence Legends. And a Peavey JSX 412 cab with V30. The thing loves mid spikey speakers. Same reason I replaced my 6505 mini head. It just offers more value but also sounds as good if not better. A/B'd it against Mesa JP2C. Sounds good with this Mesa 212.  It sure can get loud against a 100w tube amp. But at full volume, that SS headroom problem is there.

« Last Edit: July 04, 2017, 07:47:32 AM by Bolt Thrower »

Online nicoyow

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2017, 09:47:34 PM »
nood ng TV. usually nasa huling channels yun mga pampatayo ulit e. then, ihahanda ang sandata para sa round 2.

Online ryechua

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2017, 11:27:49 PM »
interesting read/topic. napa google tuloy ako and it seems there's some talk regarding SS vs Tube power amp and it's effect on resonance frequency - mostly with the hi-fi domain but also related to guitar amps. basa basa muna ako  :mrgreen:
doh!!!

Offline kelvinator

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2017, 09:05:29 PM »
Kemper vs other amps


bummer..

Offline broduo

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2017, 10:11:04 PM »
I bought my first multi effects unit (which was a rack Digitech DSP Plus) back in 1989.  It was the 'IN' thing then but I only used it once and sold it.  It made my guitar sound one dimensional and closer to a keyboard.  Back then, I thought that digital technology would still mature and produce better sounding effects today.  But somehow the development of digital for application as Guitar FX specially in floor unit configuration did not progress as much as I hoped.

So, here goes my rant against floor Guitar digital multi fx units:

1) A great majority are made in Asia which means cost reduction was the main priority.  Unlike the old rack units made in USA and Europe, sound and durability was the priority.
2) Despite the marketing hype of more bits and higher sampling frequency, they still make a tube amp sound like a home stereo unit.  On the other hand, and surprisingly, analog effect boxes are sounding better every year.  Moreover, I have not heard any digital multi fx that can copy the sound of vintage effects from the 60s and 70s.
3) Distortion and overdrive still sound sucky compared to the best designed and manufactured analog distortion and overdrive.
4) Despite the so called flexibility in programming and one unit convenience, no digital multi fx effects unit invented as of today can claim to have ALL its effects as the best sounding.  Basically that means, along with the digital multi fx effects unit, you have to bring other effects along to supplement its weaknesses and most of the time they are analog.
5) Like your cellphone, they are easily made obsolete.
6) They do not have a high resale value.
7) They are hard to fix specially after a few years because their chips go out of production.
8. There is a loss of transparency and feel in your guitar.
9) Guys who use the same floor multi fx pedals sound the same.
10) They sound bad compared to the best analog chain made up of boutique analog effects.

P.S. I have a bunch of digital stomp boxes too -- the original Whammy, Boss DD2 and Boss DD3 and they sound great.  Used sparingly, they do not make your guitar sound like a stereo unit.

"kapag meron tiyaga meron bulalo"

Online 24242009

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Re: GUITAR DIGITAL FLOOR MULTI EFFECTS (Why I don't Like Them)
« Reply #49 on: November 08, 2017, 02:53:59 PM »
Boss GT10 and Boss GT100 are good multi effects in my opinion and sounds good too