Great Guitar Tone and why it is Universal and NOT kanya kanya lang

[horge]

If I can learn it without having to go thru your requirement and back then without a lossless recording, why not experience it for yourself?   
If being hassled is your excuse to continue asking me questions, then recursive we shall be.   (emphasis mine)

 
My excuse to continue asking you questions, Alex?
I only asked two questions that weren't rhetorical, and only in my first post.

It would help you understand my context if you re-read what I posted earlier:

To be clear, I have no trouble believing that YOU believe.
Why should I care what another person believes, if it doesn't harm me?

I'm not posting here to determine whether your "hiyaw" exists or not, because I don't care that much.
Instead, I began posting about how you could improve the manner in which you preach about "hiyaw".
The reason is that it, and reactions to it, are disruptive to other threads (Rizal Luthier the most recent).
I offered you advice, and you've read it.

Somehow the focus has shifted into describing a proper test for "hiyaw", and again, while I appreciate
anyone's invitation to their space, I'm not really interested in determining whether your "hiyaw" exists,
because I don't care that much (you should be familiar with how contemplating impending mortality can
change one's priorities). What I am offering, wrt "testing for so-called hiyaw" is again advice on how to
make it easier or better --to the object AGAIN that a definitive, properly-constructed test will help to limit
disruptive "hiyaw" arguments derailing so many threads.

I'll recap my input and add some more (because if I didn't have more helpful advice, I'd not keep posting):


-More people could test for hiyaw if it could could be tested in a downloadable, lossless recording.
 It's too bad that you now indicate that your so-called "hiyaw" won't transmit over ANY sound file.

-You shouldn't create bias by announcing which guitar has "hiyaw" and which one hasn't, among
 the guitars you let a volunteer tester play. By revealing early on that the ("crappy") Charvel is the
 control, you've prejudiced volunteer testers towards NOT hearing anything special in the Charvel,
 and to hearing "something" in the others. Blind for the win.

-A control should be as similar as possible in all respects to the actual samples,save for the quality
 you want to test for. You don't need fifteen different guitars that you feel have "hiyaw". You only
 need one, plus one or more of identical  brand/model that you feel DON'T have "hiyaw". Have the
 volunteer tester play them, no prompting as to which is which. (Afterwards, an experience --not a
 test-- involving the rest of your 15 begins acquires more potential value).

Please reconsider your control sample, and especially divulging which guitar it actually is.
I'll end with a more relevant example than vegetable rape, so that I'm clearer.

If a volunteer tester has never owned /played a Les Paul, handing him a Les Paul with "hiyaw" is almost
useless as a test. Without prior experience with specimens lacking "hiyaw", he may reasonably assume
that all LP's are so, thus failing to distinguish the quality you want him to find. It's worse still if a
volunteer tester does own a Les Paul that just happens to already have "hiyaw": he'll try yours and say,
"there's nothing really special here, compared to what I've known. That is why you hand him an LP with
alleged "hiyaw", and a nearly identical one without".

Others have heard and know it.

1. many have visited Firemodel at his place.
2. many have discovered that "Hiyaw" is not solely found on Alex's guitars, but in their guitars as well (to varying degrees)

Their input, on this thread, could be helpful.
Perhaps they can provide a useful (or at least usefully-different) description of this so-called "hiyaw".
Even if their descriptions would be anecdotal/qualitative, meron pa ring value yun.

Kasi, at this point where I'm reading that "hiyaw" isn't just heard, is hard to describe in words, and has
to be experienced by playing the subject guitar... I suspect it can be lumped into another catch-all (and
fuzzy) term which I mentioned earlier: 'mojo'. Even "x-factor" might apply... in which case, well, if this new
term sticks in popular use, it'll stick. If not, then not.

[firemodel55]

Only musicians care about the instruments. Listeners only care about what they hear (and see, if it is a live band).

Why spend big money for something that you cannot share with your audience? Paying for playability is fine, but for hiyaw that should not be just heard then why bother?

Once when Arie and his band were asked to play at Conspiracy for fund raising gig.  Just for kicks we decided to bring a Komet Aero 33 (US$4k), Cornell 18 watt combo (US$3k) and a Soldano SLO 100 (US$4k).

We were surprised when the audience was complementing Arie and his group big never heard Guitars sound so good ever at Conspiracy. 

My point is that its ironic but the audience is first to hear good equipment specially amplification because its these amps that throws the sound waves to them first.  When I ask my friends who do not patronize the club scene about why they do not watch more bands live,
unanimous ang statement nila:  Sobrang lakas at ang sama ng tunog.

Roy C, Hiyaw can be heard live and with my amplification it is more obvious.  That being said, hiyaw is also felt.   

[horge]

Ah, so it isn't limited to the player's experience.
-It can be heard by listeners, but only in a live playing context.
-It cannot be detected on recordings of any quality.

E, kung ganun, mukhang walang shortcut talaga.
I'll just implore you to keep up your progress in err, toning things down.

Cheers.

[royc]

Once when Arie and his band were asked to play at Conspiracy for fund raising gig.  Just for kicks we decided to bring a Komet Aero 33 (US$4k), Cornell 18 watt combo (US$3k) and a Soldano SLO 100 (US$4k).

We were surprised when the audience was complementing Arie and his group big never heard Guitars sound so good ever at Conspiracy. 

My point is that its ironic but the audience is first to hear good equipment specially amplification because its these amps that throws the sound waves to them first.  When I ask my friends who do not patronize the club scene about why they do not watch more bands live,
unanimous ang statement nila:  Sobrang lakas at ang sama ng tunog.

Roy C, Hiyaw can be heard live and with my amplification it is more obvious.  That being said, hiyaw is also felt.   

There is no question that good amps can make a difference, both in live and recorded sound. Sound amplification is something I always I check when visiting a music venue.

I am doubtful about hiyaw in guitars though, specifically in your guitars vs properly set up amercan guitars, when played live.

Next time an audience praises your guitar, ask if he is a guitar player or just a listener. Chances are he/she is the former. The general audience listens to the music, but cannot tell the difference between a mid priced guitar and a very expensive guitar by listening, though they may be able to tell by the looks.

[J_E_K_A]

Have you guys wondered why neck profile is so difficult to communicate over the net?  Because the mind is limited in trying to construct something 3 dimensional over a flat 2 dimensional screen.  Neck Profile has to be experienced.  The same thing with hiyaw.  It has to ALSO be felt and not just heard.

I Agree to this one....Neck Profile has to be experienced.....

[firemodel55]

There is no question that good amps can make a difference, both in live and recorded sound. Sound amplification is something I always I check when visiting a music venue.

I am doubtful about hiyaw in guitars though, specifically in your guitars vs properly set up amercan guitars, when played live.

Next time an audience praises your guitar, ask if he is a guitar player or just a listener. Chances are he/she is the former. The general audience listens to the music, but cannot tell the difference between a mid priced guitar and a very expensive guitar by listening, though they may be able to tell by the looks.

I once bought a guitar (still with me), MIJ super strat, with broken pickups (no signal), rusted old strings that don't intonate and cheap Floyd rose copy bridge.  Using the one available string without set up or amplification, I was able to determine it had hiyaw.

With regards to the other point, they can tell because it sounds so good to their ears and they are just listeners who don't play guitar.  In fact pa nga, ang non guitar player pa ang mas nag compliment sa talagang magandang guitar tone dahil sanay sila sa maraming masamang tunog na gitara sa Pinas.
Ang gitarista pa nga ang mas tolerant sa panget na tunog na gitara dahil iyon lang talaga ang affordable. 

[royc]

I Agree to this one....Neck Profile has to be experienced.....

Topic is about guitar tone, not neck profile.

Humans have five senses:

1. To hear the tone, we use our ears. For others to hear the tone, a lossless recording played on a hifi stereo system would suffice. In a controlled environment (no noise, perfectly positioned speakers, and good room acoustics) you can hear the slightest detail in both recorded and live music. In a live gig, these subtle details will be buried by the other instruments and audience noise. In a live situation, people listen to the music, not the individual instruments, unless it is a solo.

2. To appreciate playability we use our sense of touch and feel. Neck profile is about playability. There is no way to judge the tone by using our sense of touch or feel, unless you can identify a good tone by feeling the vibrations of the wood without hearing it. If you say that hiyaw should be experienced then you are not talking about tone.

3. Our eyes can only see the cosmetics of a guitar. It cannnot judge the tone just by looking. It is an acceptable fact though that expensive guitars look better than budget guitars.

4. Our sense of smell is not used to identify tone, unless we can smell a good guitar.

5. Unless you eat guitars, we do not use our sense of taste to identify a good sounding guitar.

That said, tone is a combination of skill, guitar, effects, amp, and sound reinforcement (PA). When choosing a guitar, we use our sense of hearing, touch, and sight, depending on our priority.

[royc]

I once bought a guitar (still with me), MIJ super strat, with broken pickups (no signal), rusted old strings that don't intonate and cheap Floyd rose copy bridge.  Using the one available string without set up or amplification, I was able to determine it had hiyaw.

With regards to the other point, they can tell because it sounds so good to their ears and they are just listeners who don't play guitar.  In fact pa nga, ang non guitar player pa ang mas nag compliment sa talagang magandang guitar tone dahil sanay sila sa maraming masamang tunog na gitara sa Pinas.
Ang gitarista pa nga ang mas tolerant sa panget na tunog na gitara dahil iyon lang talaga ang affordable.

Did the next band use the same amps? If yes, did their guitars sound the same or better?

[firemodel55]

Did the next band use the same amps? If yes, did their guitars sound the same or better?

There was no next band...

[firemodel55]

Topic is about guitar tone, not neck profile.

(I think the analogy on neck profile was meant to show you that there are realities related to guitar that cannot be completely communicated via downloads)

Humans have five senses:

1. To hear the tone, we use our ears. For others to hear the tone, a lossless recording played on a hifi stereo system would suffice. In a controlled environment (no noise, perfectly positioned speakers, and good room acoustics) you can hear the slightest detail in both recorded and live music. In a live gig, these subtle details will be buried by the other instruments and audience noise. In a live situation, people listen to the music, not the individual instruments, unless it is a solo.
( Kaso may music na maganda ang tunog ng gitara at may music na may masakit ang gitara -- which is the majority)


2. To appreciate playability we use our sense of touch and feel. (Which is one aspect that can be communicated by a recording or pictures over the internet.) Neck profile is about playability. There is no way to judge the tone by using our sense of touch or feel, unless you can identify a good tone by feeling the vibrations of the wood without hearing it. If you say that hiyaw should be experienced then you are not talking about tone.
( If you mean 'tone' to mean timbre then that's true if you have a dead sounding guitar.  If I mean 'tone' to mean something else in a guitar, feel is part of it. For guitars that sound great in terms of timbre, did you ever feel more inspired playing that specific instrument? )
3. Our eyes can only see the cosmetics of a guitar. It cannnot judge the tone just by looking. It is an acceptable fact though that expensive guitars look better than budget guitars.

4. Our sense of smell is not used to identify tone, unless we can smell a good guitar.

5. Unless you eat guitars, we do not use our sense of taste to identify a good sounding guitar.

That said, tone is a combination of skill, guitar, effects, amp, and sound reinforcement (PA). (I call that timbre but a guitar is more than just timbre) When choosing a guitar, we use our sense of hearing, touch, and sight, depending on our priority. (Very true but like in anything in life some choose better than others.)

[firemodel55]

Ah, so it isn't limited to the player's experience.
-It can be heard by listeners, but only in a live playing context.
-It cannot be detected on recordings of any quality.

E, kung ganun, mukhang walang shortcut talaga.
I'll just implore you to keep up your progress in err, toning things down.

Cheers.

Good morning pala.  Galing lang ako palengke.  In all fairness kung magaling ang mag rerecord, maririnig siguro ang expression ng hiyaw but to experience it fully it needs to be felt.
For example, it is easy to record and pickup guitar sustain but to feel the sustain is a different matter all together.

[royc]

There was no next band...

What guitar were used on those amps? Do you believe that other guitars would have sounded better on your amps if there was another band?

[royc]

(I think the analogy on neck profile was meant to show you that there are realities related to guitar that cannot be completely communicated via downloads)

-- We just want to hear the hiyaw in your guitar without going to your place. We are not interested in playing your guitar, just hear it as an audience.  A lossless recording would suffice for that.

( Kaso may music na maganda ang tunog ng gitara at may music na may masakit ang gitara -- which is the majority)

-- We are talking about subtle differences between a mid vs a high end guitars in a live gig using the same good amps. It is unfair to compare a cheap guitar with an expensive one.


( If you mean 'tone' to mean timbre then that's true if you have a dead sounding guitar.  If I mean 'tone' to mean something else in a guitar, feel is part of it. For guitars that sound great in terms of timbre, did you ever feel more inspired playing that specific instrument? )

-- We are not comparing a dead sounding guitar to an expensive guitar coz that is an unfair comparison. I am referring to a good, mid-priced guitar that is properly set up and and a high end guitar.

Feeling and hearing use two different senses. Can you honestly judge a guitar's tone or timbre just by feeling it?

[firemodel55]

What guitar were used on those amps? Do you believe that other guitars would have sounded better on your amps if there was another band?

Depends. If they used a 68 plexi, a dumble Overdrive and a trainwreck, they might have sounded better.

[firemodel55]

(I think the analogy on neck profile was meant to show you that there are realities related to guitar that cannot be completely communicated via downloads)

-- We just want to hear the hiyaw in your guitar without going to your place. We are not interested in playing your guitar, just hear it as an audience.  A lossless recording would suffice for that.
WELL I SUGGEST YOU FIND SOMEBODY AND PAY HIM TO RECORD IT FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE.
( Kaso may music na maganda ang tunog ng gitara at may music na may masakit ang gitara -- which is the majority)

-- We are talking about subtle differences between a mid vs a high end guitars in a live gig using the same good amps. It is unfair to compare a cheap guitar with an expensive one.
MAY PANGET NA MID END AT HIGH END GUITAR.  SO BETWEEN A PANGET NA HIGH END GUITAR AT MAGANDANG HIGH END GUITAR; MALAKI PA RIN ANG DIFFERENCE.


( If you mean 'tone' to mean timbre then that's true if you have a dead sounding guitar.  If I mean 'tone' to mean something else in a guitar, feel is part of it. For guitars that sound great in terms of timbre, did you ever feel more inspired playing that specific instrument? )

-- We are not comparing a dead sounding guitar to an expensive guitar coz that is an unfair comparison. I am referring to a good, mid-priced guitar that is properly set up and and a high end guitar.
I WAS COMPARING A DEAD SOUNDING GUITAR TO A GUITAR WITH HIYAW. I NEVER MENTIONED PRICE.
Feeling and hearing use two different senses. Can you honestly judge a guitar's tone or timbre just by feeling it?

SURPRISINGLY, I USE BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

Forgive me for using ALL CAPS, para mas makita ang reply ko.

[royc]

Depends. If they used a 68 plexi, a dumble Overdrive and a trainwreck, they might have sounded better.

Then we both agree that a non high-end guitar will sound good on a good amp.

[J_E_K_A]

Topic is about guitar tone, not neck profile.

Humans have five senses:

1. To hear the tone, we use our ears. For others to hear the tone, a lossless recording played on a hifi stereo system would suffice. In a controlled environment (no noise, perfectly positioned speakers, and good room acoustics) you can hear the slightest detail in both recorded and live music. In a live gig, these subtle details will be buried by the other instruments and audience noise. In a live situation, people listen to the music, not the individual instruments, unless it is a solo.

2. To appreciate playability we use our sense of touch and feel. Neck profile is about playability. There is no way to judge the tone by using our sense of touch or feel, unless you can identify a good tone by feeling the vibrations of the wood without hearing it. If you say that hiyaw should be experienced then you are not talking about tone.

3. Our eyes can only see the cosmetics of a guitar. It cannnot judge the tone just by looking. It is an acceptable fact though that expensive guitars look better than budget guitars.

4. Our sense of smell is not used to identify tone, unless we can smell a good guitar.

5. Unless you eat guitars, we do not use our sense of taste to identify a good sounding guitar.

That said, tone is a combination of skill, guitar, effects, amp, and sound reinforcement (PA). When choosing a guitar, we use our sense of hearing, touch, and sight, depending on our priority.

I know the topic is about guitar tone I just want to mention that..."I Agree to this one....Neck Profile has to be experienced....." that's all no more no less

[royc]

WELL I SUGGEST YOU FIND SOMEBODY AND PAY HIM TO RECORD IT FOR YOUR CONVENIENCE.

-- You claim that you have the best sounding guitars in the Philippines. To prove your claim we, the online community, need to listen to your guitar via a lossless recording. You refuse to create a recording and ask me to pay for it. Sorry, but the burden of proof rests on you, without which your claim is just that--a claim.

MAY PANGET NA MID END AT HIGH END GUITAR.  SO BETWEEN A PANGET NA HIGH END GUITAR AT MAGANDANG HIGH END GUITAR; MALAKI PA RIN ANG DIFFERENCE.

-- We are not comparing panget guitars. We are talking about good guitars, properly set up, whose difference are only the price.

I WAS COMPARING A DEAD SOUNDING GUITAR TO A GUITAR WITH HIYAW. I NEVER MENTIONED PRICE.

-- Most dead sounding guitars are in the lower price range, I believe.

SURPRISINGLY, I USE BOTH AT THE SAME TIME

-- You must be a super human to judge a guitar's tone by its feel. Us mortals use our ears to judge the sound, and our feel to judge the playability. The only way you can claim to use both ears and feel to judge a tone is if you can use one without the other in judging.

I rest my case. I am just a mortal to judge you

[firemodel55]

Then we both agree that a non high-end guitar will sound good on a good amp.

Let me qualify: A high end guitar will sound better than a non high end guitar on a good amp.

[royc]

Let me qualify: A high end guitar will sound better than a non high end guitar on a good amp.

I expect this to be the case. However, I am wondering if the difference in tone is proportional to the price difference to justify the added cost. A shootout between your high end guitar and a properly set up american guitar of the same model, recorded in lossless audio and played on a hifi stereo, can demonstrate this. Unfortunately, that will not happen anytime soon coz no one wants to pay for the cost

[7string_highway]

I just want to chime in this "Hiyaw" overtone or what ever way you call it. It is surely to be experienced and be felt and no amount of words can describe it, you have to experience it. The closest  thing to say is that the notes becomes livelier and can blossom may it be plugged or unplugged the amplification side of things will just amplified it if maganada ang set up or the amplifier will defeat the natural "hiyaw" if your using a crappy set up kaya nga I'm more particular on my amplifier than the guitar itself though its a pricey business if you have to find a great sounding guitar then pair it w/ a top notch tube amp ekanga its the sum of all parts if we are talking electric guitar music. Surely I agree on firemodels description on "hiyaw" and luckily I experienced it my ESP Nt2 Horizon though It may vary how much hiyaw does it have,

In my experience upon comparing it to my other guitars and friends guitars (jackson, washburn, fender strat, Gibson SG) there something about the ESP especially how the notes decays and how it rings and sustains mas halata xa once I plugged it in my Mesa Boogie Electradyne lalo na sa clean settings and mild dirt.  I used to play some descent sounding guitars which I thought will suffice my needs and having a boutique quality of dirt boxes and plugged in a lot of solid state amps in the stage (usual suspect mashall MG, Peavy , Laney) which is more than enough than the average joe kasi the main concern of the band is the performance and for a long time that's my mindset. My perspective change when I experienced plugging my ESP to a Mesa but for me I'm more particular on the amp than the guitar, a not so great sounding guitar can sound passable/descent if the amplification is top notch than a guitar w/ hiyaw plugged in a crappy amp. But if you can have both a guitar w/ hiyaw and a great sounding amp then that's tonal bliss and the big part of the equitation is you and your technique. To wrap things some people just can't hear hiyaw its like having a perfect pitch and trying to describe to another person what you are hearing though some people can hear it but in just varying degrees.

[royc]

When you say notes become livelier, I believe you were using your ears, unless you can hear the notes as the sound waves hit your skin. In that case a good quality recording and playback would result in a similar experience

[7string_highway]

I stated it plugged or unplugged yes you can feel and hear that said hiyaw or what ever way you call it. Ito nalang if some of you haven't experienced the hiyaw kind of things just ask alex to go to his house I think he do some invitation  some forumer here have done the visit and stated its an educational experience though I haven't been there in his place. Hiyaw must be experienced and hear in person there's a reason an LP'59 a sought after guitar (holy grail) due to some of its qualities there are a lot of recording on that particular guitar and most of the people who have experienced plugging one will say you have to feel and experienced to real thing to know its mojo that same analogy applies to the HIYAW kind of thing.

[acidtest]

Strange world we live in...
Seems we're more interested in the 'magical' brush than the Mona Lisa. I don't think we can measure magic. If it actually exist, then maybe...

[royc]

I stated it plugged or unplugged yes you can feel and hear that said hiyaw or what ever way you call it. Ito nalang if some of you haven't experienced the hiyaw kind of things just ask alex to go to his house I think he do some invitation  some forumer here have done the visit and stated its an educational experience though I haven't been there in his place. Hiyaw must be experienced and hear in person there's a reason an LP'59 a sought after guitar (holy grail) due to some of its qualities there are a lot of recording on that particular guitar and most of the people who have experienced plugging one will say you have to feel and experienced to real thing to know its mojo that same analogy applies to the HIYAW kind of thing.

You mean you can tell if an electric guitar has a good tone by feel, even without hearing it play?

By you and Alex's explanations, it appears that hiyaw is the experience you get by being there when a guitar with good tone is played live in front of you. I believe it is the same feeling you get when watching your favorite band play live vs listening to the records.